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Saka

1246

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  • SteveKielyCambridge
    SteveKielyCambridge Posts: 219
    ShootersHillGuru said:

    Then the level of account accountability needs to change. 
    Accountability for who? The social-media firms are pouring a fortune into trying to solve this, so how can they reasonably be held accountable for the solution not existing?
    You cannot reasonably find out who the users are, so you cannot hold them accountable.
  • Todds_right_hook
    Todds_right_hook Posts: 10,885
    SteveKielyCambridge said:
    ShootersHillGuru said:
    I have no IT knowledge but I do know that more could be done. I also know when these vile individuals should be tracked down and the penalties should be draconian. 
    How can you possibly track down and prove the guilt of someone who posts something from an account where the nearest thing you have to contact details for them is a username like JayBob8779?
    There will be a name and address linked to the account
  • Todds_right_hook
    Todds_right_hook Posts: 10,885
    SteveKielyCambridge said:
    ShootersHillGuru said:

    Then the level of account accountability needs to change. 
    Accountability for who? The social-media firms are pouring a fortune into trying to solve this, so how can they reasonably be held accountable for the solution not existing?
    You cannot reasonably find out who the users are, so you cannot hold them accountable.
    See below, you can and it has happened previously
  • hoof_it_up_to_benty
    hoof_it_up_to_benty Posts: 22,457
    ShootersHillGuru said:
    SteveKielyCambridge said:
    ShootersHillGuru said:
    I have no IT knowledge but I do know that more could be done. I also know when these vile individuals should be tracked down and the penalties should be draconian. 
    How can you possibly track down and prove the guilt of someone who posts something from an account where the nearest thing you have to contact details for them is a username like JayBob8779?
    Then the level of account accountability needs to change. 
    Publishers are governed by laws in terms of what they can publish and libel etc. The laws regarding social media companies haven't kept pace and you also have to take into account these are large multinational companies.

    It's all very arbitrary at present in the way things are addressed. Views etc are in the public domain and need to be addressed accordingly.
  • Siv_in_Norfolk
    Siv_in_Norfolk Posts: 4,057
    ForeverAddickted said:
    Still dunno of Southgate was telling the truth last night or whether he remembered the attention he got after '96 and wanted to shield his players for doing that. 

    If so its certainly worked as so far seen both the Daily Mail and BBC on twitter reporting about how Southgate picked the takers and nothing about those who missed. 
    Telling the truth about what?
  • MuttleyCAFC
    MuttleyCAFC Posts: 47,738
    What you probably need is a punishment severe enough to put people off even if the risk of being caught is low.
  • SteveKielyCambridge
    SteveKielyCambridge Posts: 219
    Todds_right_hook said:

    There will be a name and address linked to the account
    Yes, and that will work fine is someone is daft enough to put your actual details on the account (which, to be fair some people who leave racist comments might well be), but it does not help if the name and address is Donald Duck at Disneyland.
  • ValleyGary
    ValleyGary Posts: 37,987
    I love the boy. I just wanna put my arm round him and give him a cuddle. He missed a shot from 12 yards, he didn’t intentionally miss, he had the bollocks to take one, is it really that big a deal? I’m absolutely devastated we didn’t win but it’s nobody’s fault. The young man has been a revelation.
  • Siv_in_Norfolk
    Siv_in_Norfolk Posts: 4,057
    Chinese social media - you need to register with ID to sign up and there are consequences for anti-social postings. 

    Sounds sensible in this context, right?

    Or... does it sound like oppressive state control of expression?

    I know which way I'd prefer things to be 
  • MuttleyCAFC
    MuttleyCAFC Posts: 47,738
    He is a great prospect and I'm sure he will come back stronger. I would say to him, what doesn't kill you makes you stronger. He had a great tournament and played an important part in us getting to the final.

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  • ShootersHillGuru
    ShootersHillGuru Posts: 50,632
    SteveKielyCambridge said:
    ShootersHillGuru said:

    Then the level of account accountability needs to change. 
    Accountability for who? The social-media firms are pouring a fortune into trying to solve this, so how can they reasonably be held accountable for the solution not existing?
    You cannot reasonably find out who the users are, so you cannot hold them accountable.
    That’s my point. The individual account holder needs to be held accountable. If technology can direct a laser from California onto a mirror the size of a postage stamp on the moon then having individual account accountability shouldn’t be beyond us. These vile people posting their bile need to be found and harshly punished. The media giants should be made to make sure that can easily be done. 
  • ShootersHillGuru
    ShootersHillGuru Posts: 50,632
    edited July 2021

    If everyone was like you at solving problems we’d still be living in mud huts hitting each other with sticks.
  • SteveKielyCambridge
    SteveKielyCambridge Posts: 219
    Siv_in_Norfolk said:
    Chinese social media - you need to register with ID to sign up and there are consequences for anti-social postings. 

    Sounds sensible in this context, right?

    Or... does it sound like oppressive state control of expression?

    I know which way I'd prefer things to be 
    It does sound sensible, but unfortunately really only works in China because everyone has ID. In the States at the moment, for example, there is a long-running row over laws being introduced to require ID in order to vote. These are strongly (and with some justification) attacked as racist because ethnic minorities disproportionately do not have ID and so would not be able to vote. And that is not even to consider the reliability of ID in other parts of the world.
    It does not seem reasonable that the social-media companies should enact a policy to tackle racism by disproportionately excluding ethnic minorities.
  • LargeAddick
    LargeAddick Posts: 32,600
    killerandflash said:
    I don't understand why footballers are on social media, as they know that if there's a bad result they will get slaughtered, whether racially or otherwise, as sadly those people are out there and probably always have been, but they now have an anonymous forum to peddle their hatred.

    Partially they are on social media to keep in touch with their true fans, but also in the modern world success is also measured by your number of followers, something which makes you more marketable to advertisers. Given the choice, I'd sacrifice some of this commercial income, and stay off.
    I’ve said this before but I read or saw an interview with Frank Lampard once and at the end when asked what one piece of advice he’d give to any young footballer it was ‘stay off social media’.
  • hoof_it_up_to_benty
    hoof_it_up_to_benty Posts: 22,457
    SteveKielyCambridge said:
    ShootersHillGuru said:

    Then the level of account accountability needs to change. 
    Accountability for who? The social-media firms are pouring a fortune into trying to solve this, so how can they reasonably be held accountable for the solution not existing?
    You cannot reasonably find out who the users are, so you cannot hold them accountable.
    A lot depends on the legal accountability of platforms and whether our existing laws are fit for purpose. Do we want platforms that are left to police themselves without any legal oversight? If the answer is yes we put all the power in the owners of these platforms.

    If the laws are in place and the companies have to follow them then they will find a way to comply.
  • LargeAddick
    LargeAddick Posts: 32,600
    I don’t blame any player for missing a penalty, they had the balls to step up and take one, but I massively blame their Manager who should know better for putting them in that position. 
  • ShootersHillGuru
    ShootersHillGuru Posts: 50,632
    .

  • hoof_it_up_to_benty
    hoof_it_up_to_benty Posts: 22,457
    ShootersHillGuru said:
    SteveKielyCambridge said:
    ShootersHillGuru said:

    Then the level of account accountability needs to change. 
    Accountability for who? The social-media firms are pouring a fortune into trying to solve this, so how can they reasonably be held accountable for the solution not existing?
    You cannot reasonably find out who the users are, so you cannot hold them accountable.
    That’s my point. The individual account holder needs to be held accountable. If technology can direct a laser from California onto a mirror the size of a postage stamp on the moon then having individual account accountability shouldn’t be beyond us. These vile people posting their bile need to be found and harshly punished. The media giants should be made to make sure that can easily be done. 
    Social media giants will have more respect for the law once our laws are fit for purpose. 
  • SteveKielyCambridge
    SteveKielyCambridge Posts: 219
    hoof_it_up_to_benty said:

    A lot depends on the legal accountability of platforms and whether our existing laws are fit for purpose. Do we want platforms that are left to police themselves without any legal oversight? If the answer is yes we put all the power in the owners of these platforms.

    If the laws are in place and the companies have to follow them then they will find a way to comply.
    If a law was brought in tomorrow to make social-media companies legally responsible for all the content on their sites then every social-media platform will have closed down by the end of the day.
    I am a magazine publisher who has to be personally liable for everything in my magazines and websites, so maybe there is part of me that would like this, but we would need to be aware that would be the result.
  • ShootersHillGuru
    ShootersHillGuru Posts: 50,632
    LargeAddick said:
    I don’t blame any player for missing a penalty, they had the balls to step up and take one, but I massively blame their Manager who should know better for putting them in that position. 
    Kind of agree with that but you might also argue that younger players have no fear. I think the pressure in taking a penalty in those circumstances is off the scale. Any player of any stature is likely to fold.

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  • Chizz
    Chizz Posts: 28,341
    hoof_it_up_to_benty said:
    Chizz said:
    hoof_it_up_to_benty said:
    Chizz said:
    hoof_it_up_to_benty said:
    Chizz said:
    Oliver Dowden. "It's the social media companies' fault that racists get to say racist things". 



    Enjoy your next Cabinet meeting, Ollie. And don't forget to ask the Prime Minister if he still defends the fans' right to boo taking the knee. 
    What do you think the solution is with social media companies? What protest or action would be effective?


    I wouldn't look to the platform as being the cause of the hate.  And so, I wouldn't single out social media companies and attempt to fine them ten percent of their global revenues (which would never work) when some of their users abuse people.  

    If someone calls you on the phone and rants at you with foul, racist, anti-semitic, homophobic, transphobic, islamophobic or other abuse; and others also do so, you would (I hope) report that abuse to the police.  I would expect the force then to go after those individuals.  I wouldn't expect them to sue Apple or Samsung, or whoever makes your phone.  

    The vile perpetrators of online, racist - and other - abuse deserve to be punished; not the massive majority of people who go about using social media innocently and profitably (both in financially and in terms of personal development).  Trying to fine Twitter ten percent of its global revenue would result in Twitter shutting down in the UK, rather than ponying up the dough.  Then who wins?  

    The problem lies within the people who hold racist views; and the problem is exacerbated when those views are given succour.  And that is provided by people from the widest-range of political viewpoint.  Corbyn.  Farage.  Johnson.  Patel.  People look up to these politicians and see them encouraging, condoning or even joining in with their views.  When the Prime Minister's spokesperson was asked, specifically, about taking the knee and the reaction to the England team doing so, the response was not, 'I fully support any action which demonstrates the urgent need to ensure football fans in England grow up to respect everyone who makes up this great country'.  It was that he 'fully respects the right of those who choose to peacefully protest and make their feelings known'. 

    Well, John Q Racist of Hateville, Englandshire really knows what's ok now, doesn't he?  He can tweet whatever he likes, because his Prime Minister 'fully respects' him and his peaceful protest against footballers who have deliberately chosen to be black, in order to offend his sensibilities. 

    You ask what protest would be effective?  I believe what would really be effective is not a protest against social media or against the government.  It should be a protest by the government and by social media.

    • The government and political leaders from all parties should protest against racists.  Make it absolutely clear that their abhorrent behaviour is not just illegal, but it's deranged.  Racism is a nasty, pervasive taint on an otherwise brilliant country.  And Boris Johnson should make the very difficult decision to stand on a platform with politicians he is utterly opposed to, in order to stand together to face it down.  
    • Social media companies should act further.  They should not ban social media users who transgress, but should use the data they hold on them, against them.  Even 'anonymous' accounts leave breadcrumb trails.  Perpetrators of racism shouldn't be banned, they should be highlighted.  To their friends, families, police, employers, sporting affiliations.  The racist who will lose his job for tweeting racism, won't tweet racism.  The racist who posts racism on facebook and thereby be banned by his football club, won't post racism.  
    • And governments should support this use of data from social media companies where it fall foul of (current) laws. 
    Of course doing something effective is difficult, costly and time consuming.  And it's always far, far easier to chuck red meat to your base and point a deflecting finger 'over there'. 

    A Cabinet minister saying the action his government (and all leaders of many other parties, from left to right) is helping to foment will be solved by fining social media companies - because they are the enemy - is the biggest imaginable deflection.  And it's an astonishing irony that the Cabinet minister has chosen to do so on social media. 
    Social media companies need to take effective action which up to now they've chosen not to - allowing this stuff to stay up there and providing a platform is unacceptable. They've chosen to do this for financial reasons.

    They won't take action without legislation as they think they are above the law.
    Social media companies don't post racist content, users do.  
    Social media companies do not 'choose' to leave racist content online 'for financial reasons'. 
    Social media companies do take action (although could and should do more). 
    Social media companies are not 'above the law'. 

    I disagree that the the enabling platforms are the cause of the issue, neither are they solely responsible for the solution.  

    Pretending that the solution to racism in the UK is to fine social media companies is an utter abrogation of duty. 

    Racists are the problem; government should own - and be accountable for - the solution.  
    How do you make social media companies police their sites more effectively or do you think sufficient is done at present? 


    Again, the problem is people sharing racist posts on social media.  The solution lies with tackling the people and the racist posts, and not solely with the social media. 

    Threatening social media companies with preposterous, unenforceable fines is not - and never has been - the solution.  Fining Instagram for someone posting something racist isn't the solution, when that person continues to be a racist; and when the government foments and condones race-based prejudice.  

    I don't want to take this thread too far off course.  I think I have made my position as clear as I want to, so I won't repeat it any more.  
  • Lincsaddick
    Lincsaddick Posts: 32,362
    when he was brought on it was a mistake, Grealish should have been the first change .. during his time on the field Saka never looked at ease, frankly he was poor, not helped of course by being half strangled by Chiellini who could well have been sent off .. when Saka missed his penalty, t b h I would have been more surprised had he scored .. IF he took a pen at Southgate's behest, it was a poor decision by the manager
  • hoof_it_up_to_benty
    hoof_it_up_to_benty Posts: 22,457
    edited July 2021
    SteveKielyCambridge said:
    hoof_it_up_to_benty said:

    A lot depends on the legal accountability of platforms and whether our existing laws are fit for purpose. Do we want platforms that are left to police themselves without any legal oversight? If the answer is yes we put all the power in the owners of these platforms.

    If the laws are in place and the companies have to follow them then they will find a way to comply.
    If a law was brought in tomorrow to make social-media companies legally responsible for all the content on their sites then every social-media platform will have closed down by the end of the day.
    I am a magazine publisher who has to be personally liable for everything in my magazines and websites, so maybe there is part of me that would like this, but we would need to be aware that would be the result.
    The laws need to be changed as the social media companies are putting stuff in the public domain the same as a publisher does and it does have damaging effects. If we want all these platforms to be free from laws then we live with the consequences.
  • ValleyGary
    ValleyGary Posts: 37,987
    LargeAddick said:
    I don’t blame any player for missing a penalty, they had the balls to step up and take one, but I massively blame their Manager who should know better for putting them in that position. 
    I feel like this is such a simplistic outlook. The players said they’ve practiced penalties every day since meeting up. If Saka is consistently tucking them away and clearly states he wants to take one, do you say no sorry son you’re too young? This is a boy that’s carried arsenal all season and gave seasoned internationals a torrid time over the last 4 weeks remember.
  • LittleAddick
    LittleAddick Posts: 635
    Why is a 19 year old with about 9 caps taking the 5th penalty in a major final.
  • SELR_addicks
    SELR_addicks Posts: 15,470
    ValleyGary said:
    LargeAddick said:
    I don’t blame any player for missing a penalty, they had the balls to step up and take one, but I massively blame their Manager who should know better for putting them in that position. 
    I feel like this is such a simplistic outlook. The players said they’ve practiced penalties every day since meeting up. If Saka is consistently tucking them away and clearly states he wants to take one, do you say no sorry son you’re too young? This is a boy that’s carried arsenal all season and gave seasoned internationals a torrid time over the last 4 weeks remember.
    Its a very simplistic outlook to assume because he can score in training with zero pressure, he can do it in a final in front of 60,000 people. 
  • ValleyGary
    ValleyGary Posts: 37,987
    edited July 2021
    SELR_addicks said:
    ValleyGary said:
    LargeAddick said:
    I don’t blame any player for missing a penalty, they had the balls to step up and take one, but I massively blame their Manager who should know better for putting them in that position. 
    I feel like this is such a simplistic outlook. The players said they’ve practiced penalties every day since meeting up. If Saka is consistently tucking them away and clearly states he wants to take one, do you say no sorry son you’re too young? This is a boy that’s carried arsenal all season and gave seasoned internationals a torrid time over the last 4 weeks remember.
    Its a very simplistic outlook to assume because he can score in training with zero pressure, he can do it in a final in front of 60,000 people. 
    As I said, this is a kid that’s carried a major club all season and embarrassed seasoned pros in games. We get told all the time ‘he has no fear’. Great, let him take a pen.  

    Pretty sure yesterday you wanted to ‘build the team around him’
  • MuttleyCAFC
    MuttleyCAFC Posts: 47,738
    Chizz said:
    hoof_it_up_to_benty said:
    Chizz said:
    hoof_it_up_to_benty said:
    Chizz said:
    hoof_it_up_to_benty said:
    Chizz said:
    Oliver Dowden. "It's the social media companies' fault that racists get to say racist things". 



    Enjoy your next Cabinet meeting, Ollie. And don't forget to ask the Prime Minister if he still defends the fans' right to boo taking the knee. 
    What do you think the solution is with social media companies? What protest or action would be effective?


    I wouldn't look to the platform as being the cause of the hate.  And so, I wouldn't single out social media companies and attempt to fine them ten percent of their global revenues (which would never work) when some of their users abuse people.  

    If someone calls you on the phone and rants at you with foul, racist, anti-semitic, homophobic, transphobic, islamophobic or other abuse; and others also do so, you would (I hope) report that abuse to the police.  I would expect the force then to go after those individuals.  I wouldn't expect them to sue Apple or Samsung, or whoever makes your phone.  

    The vile perpetrators of online, racist - and other - abuse deserve to be punished; not the massive majority of people who go about using social media innocently and profitably (both in financially and in terms of personal development).  Trying to fine Twitter ten percent of its global revenue would result in Twitter shutting down in the UK, rather than ponying up the dough.  Then who wins?  

    The problem lies within the people who hold racist views; and the problem is exacerbated when those views are given succour.  And that is provided by people from the widest-range of political viewpoint.  Corbyn.  Farage.  Johnson.  Patel.  People look up to these politicians and see them encouraging, condoning or even joining in with their views.  When the Prime Minister's spokesperson was asked, specifically, about taking the knee and the reaction to the England team doing so, the response was not, 'I fully support any action which demonstrates the urgent need to ensure football fans in England grow up to respect everyone who makes up this great country'.  It was that he 'fully respects the right of those who choose to peacefully protest and make their feelings known'. 

    Well, John Q Racist of Hateville, Englandshire really knows what's ok now, doesn't he?  He can tweet whatever he likes, because his Prime Minister 'fully respects' him and his peaceful protest against footballers who have deliberately chosen to be black, in order to offend his sensibilities. 

    You ask what protest would be effective?  I believe what would really be effective is not a protest against social media or against the government.  It should be a protest by the government and by social media.

    • The government and political leaders from all parties should protest against racists.  Make it absolutely clear that their abhorrent behaviour is not just illegal, but it's deranged.  Racism is a nasty, pervasive taint on an otherwise brilliant country.  And Boris Johnson should make the very difficult decision to stand on a platform with politicians he is utterly opposed to, in order to stand together to face it down.  
    • Social media companies should act further.  They should not ban social media users who transgress, but should use the data they hold on them, against them.  Even 'anonymous' accounts leave breadcrumb trails.  Perpetrators of racism shouldn't be banned, they should be highlighted.  To their friends, families, police, employers, sporting affiliations.  The racist who will lose his job for tweeting racism, won't tweet racism.  The racist who posts racism on facebook and thereby be banned by his football club, won't post racism.  
    • And governments should support this use of data from social media companies where it fall foul of (current) laws. 
    Of course doing something effective is difficult, costly and time consuming.  And it's always far, far easier to chuck red meat to your base and point a deflecting finger 'over there'. 

    A Cabinet minister saying the action his government (and all leaders of many other parties, from left to right) is helping to foment will be solved by fining social media companies - because they are the enemy - is the biggest imaginable deflection.  And it's an astonishing irony that the Cabinet minister has chosen to do so on social media. 
    Social media companies need to take effective action which up to now they've chosen not to - allowing this stuff to stay up there and providing a platform is unacceptable. They've chosen to do this for financial reasons.

    They won't take action without legislation as they think they are above the law.
    Social media companies don't post racist content, users do.  
    Social media companies do not 'choose' to leave racist content online 'for financial reasons'. 
    Social media companies do take action (although could and should do more). 
    Social media companies are not 'above the law'. 

    I disagree that the the enabling platforms are the cause of the issue, neither are they solely responsible for the solution.  

    Pretending that the solution to racism in the UK is to fine social media companies is an utter abrogation of duty. 

    Racists are the problem; government should own - and be accountable for - the solution.  
    How do you make social media companies police their sites more effectively or do you think sufficient is done at present? 


    Again, the problem is people sharing racist posts on social media.  The solution lies with tackling the people and the racist posts, and not solely with the social media. 

    Threatening social media companies with preposterous, unenforceable fines is not - and never has been - the solution.  Fining Instagram for someone posting something racist isn't the solution, when that person continues to be a racist; and when the government foments and condones race-based prejudice.  

    I don't want to take this thread too far off course.  I think I have made my position as clear as I want to, so I won't repeat it any more.  
    There is a discussion around proportional representation around if we had it, it would mean distasteful far right parties would have some representation. I have always felt it is a good thing to see how much of a problem the far right are. In a similar way, surely we have to tackle the behaviours and people with these behaviours. Will they go away?
  • Chizz
    Chizz Posts: 28,341
    LittleAddick said:
    Why is a 19 year old with about 9 caps in a major final.
    Because he's very, very good
  • MuttleyCAFC
    MuttleyCAFC Posts: 47,738
    He was responsible for our equaliser against Denmark and played a key part in our goal against the Czechs. His pace caused defences problems.

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