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HS2
Comments
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How can anyone believe that the £36bn will be spent as Sunak has promised. Just like the 40 new hospitals, it will never happen. So many promises never kept.11
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200 mph to Birmingham and then a replacement bus service!
Not enough capacity for competition so fares to Manchester will still be sky high before midday.
Oh well.0 -
It’s a strategic move designed to cause a problem to the opposition, they will either have to say that they will reinstate HS2 and cancel the other transport proposals that the £32bn is being ear marked for, not reinstate HS2 or find the extra money to do both. Either option will divide voter opinion. Sunak is not expecting to be Prime Minister after the next general election and if by some chance he is, I can’t see him seeing out a full term so either way not really his problemME14addick said:How can anyone believe that the £36bn will be spent as Sunak has promised. Just like the 40 new hospitals, it will never happen. So many promises never kept.11 -
It’s ok, Rishi says everyone can use their cars so that’s fine.0
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I see in the list of transport infrastructure projects that will now go ahead due to the savings from scrapping HS2 there is no mention of the Lower Thames Crossing?0
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the £36bn will be reprofiled; and be used for tax cuts
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Spread over 10 years that's about 50 quid per year each. Not to be sniffed at but not exactly a game changer.Rot seq seehko said:the £36bn will be reprofiled; and be used for tax cuts1 -
First thing to add to the 'let's blame Labour for it not happening' list once they are in power.ME14addick said:How can anyone believe that the £36bn will be spent as Sunak has promised. Just like the 40 new hospitals, it will never happen. So many promises never kept.6 -
Hopefully, the labour government will put in place a solid plan for future development of the railways and start to implement it as and when it becomes economically appropriate.Gary Poole said:
It’s a strategic move designed to cause a problem to the opposition, they will either have to say that they will reinstate HS2 and cancel the other transport proposals that the £32bn is being ear marked for, not reinstate HS2 or find the extra money to do both. Either option will divide voter opinion. Sunak is not expecting to be Prime Minister after the next general election and if by some chance he is, I can’t see him seeing out a full term so either way not really his problemME14addick said:How can anyone believe that the £36bn will be spent as Sunak has promised. Just like the 40 new hospitals, it will never happen. So many promises never kept.
We eventually need an express line Dover - London - Birmingham - Manchester - Leeds - Newcastle - Edinburgh - Glasgow so that the existing network can efficiently handle commuter and cross-country services. Doesn't HAVE to be "high speed" but it would help!
Most countries of similar size to us have had such plans for decades and have slowly got on with it in sections. Sometimes their governments are keen and sometimes not but the basic plans rarely change. (I'm thinking of Japan - France - Spain - Italy - Korea etc as "peer" countries).
For some reason it doesn't seem to work like that here! Projects are suddenly started and cancelled by successive governments with no long term strategy and we end up with a chaotic system which makes no sense at all.
I believe our road network is like this as well. Little bits improvement which help a little but often simply kick the jams further down the road. Billions wasted through lack of strategy.5 -
The problem for Labour is that by the time they get into power (if they win the next GE) the project will have been unravelled and it will cost substantially more to re-start than simply continuing. There isn’t really an option for them to come out and support re-starting HS2 if they win unless they are willing to fund the significant additional costs that restarting would entail. It’s essentially now or never, and Sunak has chosen never.shine166 said:
First thing to add to the 'let's blame Labour for it not happening' list once they are in power.ME14addick said:How can anyone believe that the £36bn will be spent as Sunak has promised. Just like the 40 new hospitals, it will never happen. So many promises never kept.I know we don’t directly elect Prime Ministers, but it’s a strange state of affairs in a democracy that a PM who has never taken his manifesto to the public can cancel a major, transformative, initiative that has had the support of every previous PM who had a manifesto approved by the public.7 - Sponsored links:
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Rail travel needs to be efficient and cost effective in order to encourage people to ditch their cars. Ours is neither if you want to travel any distance6
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was a white elephant from the outset .. I recall Johnson at the peak of his pomp, when whatever he said was taken as gospel screaming that the 'project will go ahead all guns blazing' or words to that affect .. there has been untold damage to the environment and to the property and prospects of people in its path as well as uncounted wasted billions of pounds .. the project brought more prosperity to the west side of England at the neglect of the east .. the east-west railway system needs urgent upgrading as well infrastructure in the far west
I wrote months ago that the best thing now is to convert the now redundant rail pathways into roads, as his been done in this area with railways abandoned as far back as the Beeching era0 -
I feel for the poor people who had to move house.1
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I have been against HS2 from the beginning but we are so far down the road that we have to finish it. The problem with it is there will be clear benefits but they are for the long term not now. Mind you, the Victorians built the railways for the long term.0
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I suspect if they had built the much needed Hull-Leeds-Manchester-Liverpool bit first they wouldn't have cancelled it half way through.1
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Sorry, being lazy here.How much time does/would the HS lines take off of the journeys between:London Birmingham
London Manchester
Manchester Birmingham
Manchester Leeds0 -
MrOneLung said:Sorry, being lazy here.How much time does/would the HS lines take off of the journeys between:London Birmingham
London Manchester
Manchester Birmingham
Manchester LeedsThe following figures were provided by the Department for Transport and reprinted in The Times.
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/hs2-time-save-route-line-london-b1109490.html
Route
Current time
Journey made by HS2
Time saved
London to Birmingham
1hr 21
45 minutes
36 minutes
London to Manchester (Cancelled)
2hr 6
1hr 55
55 minutes
London to Leeds (Cancelled)
2hr 13
1hr 21
52 minutes
Birmingham to Manchester (Cancelled)
1hr 26
41 minutes
45 minutes
Birmingham to Leeds (Cancelled)
1hr 58
49 minutes
69 minutes
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is this before, after or during strikes ?MrOneLung said:Sorry, being lazy here.How much time does/would the HS lines take off of the journeys between:London Birmingham
London Manchester
Manchester Birmingham
Manchester Leeds
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Its really not about time saved, even if that's a bonus, it's the massive capacity upgrade it gives the network, and the off-shoot benefits for Northern Powerhouse Rail.
Weirdly the time argument isn't used for the Elizabeth line, even thought it knocks 10 minutes off journeys, it's a mainly a capacity play.8 - Sponsored links:
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That's the inherent flaw in democracy, it puts a focus on the short term, only things that can be completed by the next election cycle so that those who instigated the policy can then claim the benefit whilst campaigning for reelection.
Of course the founders of our democracy saw this flaw and instigated a second chamber to counter-act it, a chamber filled with those who could look at the long term as they wouldn't be obsessing about the next election above everything else.
The problem with that is the short term obsessed MPs have broken the system. There should be no such thing as a "Tory Peer" or a "Labour Peer", once the two houses are aligned along party lines then the upper house no longer functions as intended.
So whilst those who call for the abolition of the lords are correct, it is broken and needs scrapping, usually miss the point that a second house, concerned with the long term well being of the country over the petty concerns of winning the next election, is vital to successful governance.8 -
They'll be watching them be resold now for a huge mark up and the farmers lands will probably soon be housing developments. Still money to be creamed off of this yet.Arsenetatters said:I feel for the poor people who had to move house.2 -
All week Rishi had been saying no decision had been made. Then they release an announcement video that had been filmed before he even left Downing Street for the conference.5
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The whole political thing is a joke.randy andy said:That's the inherent flaw in democracy, it puts a focus on the short term, only things that can be completed by the next election cycle so that those who instigated the policy can then claim the benefit whilst campaigning for reelection.
Of course the founders of our democracy saw this flaw and instigated a second chamber to counter-act it, a chamber filled with those who could look at the long term as they wouldn't be obsessing about the next election above everything else.
The problem with that is the short term obsessed MPs have broken the system. There should be no such thing as a "Tory Peer" or a "Labour Peer", once the two houses are aligned along party lines then the upper house no longer functions as intended.
So whilst those who call for the abolition of the lords are correct, it is broken and needs scrapping, usually miss the point that a second house, concerned with the long term well being of the country over the petty concerns of winning the next election, is vital to successful governance.
I see so many good people in this country really making a difference with talent and good ideas that could really move us forward if they were given the chance.
Then I look at the elected Bozo's that are put up to run the country. Talentless, egotistical knuckle heads without the first clue about what is going on in the country they are supposed to represent.
I know it's ' always been that way' but it doesn't make it right.
And it's getting worse. And nothing I've seen from any of these in power and those vying for it are going to make it any better.1 -
Exactly this, the time benefits should always have been stated as a small bonus on top of this. In addition it should have been used to promote the net zero targets, encouraging more train use and less car/plane travel to these destinations. Creating more jobs and as you mention the Northern powerhouse economic benefits. I would add lower prices on the existing lines but we all know that probably wouldn't materialise given the privatisation of our railway network.Rothko said:Its really not about time saved, even if that's a bonus, it's the massive capacity upgrade it gives the network, and the off-shoot benefits for Northern Powerhouse Rail.
Weirdly the time argument isn't used for the Elizabeth line, even thought it knocks 10 minutes off journeys, it's a mainly a capacity play.2 -
Think this is spot on. We’re a country that has a creaking rail network that’s being left further and further behind. Go anywhere on mainland Europe and you’d be shocked at the difference in intercity travel. Only 38% of the British rail network is electrified and the average age of the rolling stock is 17 years. My son in law is a train driver and most of the trains he drives are diesel and about 35 years old. The under investment since privatisation is staggering and a complete indictment of the whole privatisation concept on things like transport infrastructure that are just too important to be left to those looking to make a buck.se9addick said:I think cancelling HS2 feels like a sad indictment of the state the country is in. Other nations can build national high speed rail networks; we can’t do those sorts of things anymore.10 -
In my opinion the Northern Powerhouse relies far more on east/west transport, not north/south. Businesses in the south are not going to relocate to the north, they will stay in the south. Commuters are not going to benefit from faster journey times from London to Manchester for their outward journey - it will be the other way around. The traditional manufacturing heartlands of the midlands and the north (what's left anyway) would tend to look at supply chains within the midlands and the north - and that clearly includes the supply of labour.colthe3rd said:
Exactly this, the time benefits should always have been stated as a small bonus on top of this. In addition it should have been used to promote the net zero targets, encouraging more train use and less car/plane travel to these destinations. Creating more jobs and as you mention the Northern powerhouse economic benefits. I would add lower prices on the existing lines but we all know that probably wouldn't materialise given the privatisation of our railway network.Rothko said:Its really not about time saved, even if that's a bonus, it's the massive capacity upgrade it gives the network, and the off-shoot benefits for Northern Powerhouse Rail.
Weirdly the time argument isn't used for the Elizabeth line, even thought it knocks 10 minutes off journeys, it's a mainly a capacity play.
HS2 was planned on a false premise. High speed, reliable train services linking Birmingham, Liverpool, Manchester, Sheffield, Leeds, Hull and Newcastle are far more important - but that's the bit that won't get done, but we can save a few minutes on empty trains between London and Birmingham.
Why the f*ck should major infrastructure projects be political.6 -
Prices on high speed lines in Europe are often lower than the equivalent traditional lines. They are not regarded as a better "quality" option.colthe3rd said:
Exactly this, the time benefits should always have been stated as a small bonus on top of this. In addition it should have been used to promote the net zero targets, encouraging more train use and less car/plane travel to these destinations. Creating more jobs and as you mention the Northern powerhouse economic benefits. I would add lower prices on the existing lines but we all know that probably wouldn't materialise given the privatisation of our railway network.Rothko said:Its really not about time saved, even if that's a bonus, it's the massive capacity upgrade it gives the network, and the off-shoot benefits for Northern Powerhouse Rail.
Weirdly the time argument isn't used for the Elizabeth line, even thought it knocks 10 minutes off journeys, it's a mainly a capacity play.
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It was a political decision yesterday.
Should this discussion be in the House of Commoners section of Charlton Life?1
