POST MATCH THREAD : Leyton Orient Vs Charlton Athletic : Tuesday Boxing Day 2023 : KO 13:00

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Cloudworm said:

golfaddick said:

Bailey said:

Cloudworm said:

Right. Clearly an important point which has put us, as a club, in the bargain bin. What I missed was how The Valley ever went from the ownership of Greenwich borough to RD? Please help us out.. 

When did Greenwich Borough own Charlton Athletic ???

They didn't.

Fyi @Cloudworm the ground has always been owned by the owner. In 2019 ESI did a deal with Roland to buy the "club" (basically the name & the rights to play in the EFL) for the princely sum of.......£1. 

Yes. £1. Basically ESI bought the loss making part & Roland kept the assets (The Valley & the Training Ground). 

The rest, as they say, is history.

Ok, so he owns it now. Who did he buy it from and for how much?

He purchased it from, what is commonly known on here as the spivs. The club got promotion in 2012 under Chris Powell and made a solid first start to life in the championship in 2012/2013. In 2013/14 season rumours started to circulate about the 'Spivs's having not a pot to piss in and the club about to enter administration. Richard Murray, former chairman who was still on the board at that time, made overtures to Roland to bring Charlton under his stable of clubs. Roland paid, allegedly 20 mill to purchase Charlton Athletic and the freeholds in January 2014. Roland hadn't been in the hot seat long when he sacked Chris Powell, for not playing the substandard players that Roland brought in, sold Yann Kermorant to Bournemouth and appointed Katrien Meire as CEO, an individual who had no experience in running an English football club or any football club for that matter, she also resorted to lying to not only the supporters but, allegedly, to the man who employed her. And thus the darkest of nights befell Charlton Athletic and continue to this day. If I have anything wrong lifers please feel free to correct me. 

Cloudworm said:

Ok. Who did the Spivs buy it from? 

Also how much did they buy the club, including the ground and Sparrows for, and how much did they sell it for?

Seems our demise is fundamentally linked to the value of the club which used to include real estate, but no longer does. 

DOUCHER said:

swordfish said:

hoof_it_up_to_benty said:

L1 is pretty poor this year and we're still way off the playoffs. No idea what the owners are expecting but we're hemorrhaging support and there is a growing division between fans and players.

Surely already down to near the limit now. For some, attending isn't a lifestyle choice but a life giving one in that they can't comprehend what their lives would be like if they didn't.

They will never leave, destined for eternity to suffer whatever misfortune befalls their club. Others less tolerant are able to check out for a while, quite a long while in my case, thirteen years and counting, although I was at the play off final more recently of course. And who wasn't? What a day that was! So sad the opportunity was squandered.

if u haven't been to a game for 13 years, do you really think u r in a position to understand / criticise why fans who actually attend react in the way they do? 

Had I done so, I'd say no, but if you think I have, you're misinterpreting my post.

Airman Brown said:

Bailey said:

DOUCHER said:

Cloudworm said:

DOUCHER said:

YannTheMann said:

Gribbo said:

Our players and manager are always going to be mediocre as long as we're League 1. Players who are 100% in all areas of their game don't tend to play in League 1, they're usually with Chelsea or City in the Prem.

CBT, for example, getting pelters for not being able to finish a move every time; yeah that's right, because if he did have the finishing touch every time, he wouldn't be playing for Charlton.

Just think the idea is to give a mediocre manager time and support, to get the best out of a team of mediocre players, who each make up for eachother's short falls. The only alternative to that, imo, is to invest heavily, or do a Wrexham and become fashionable overnight.

The most sensible analysis in this thread 

or there's the third option which is what powell and bowyer did - put a good side together with good players in a sensible formation that suits them 

Somehow they were facilitated in that. Billionaire owners don't come round too often.

As someone who wasn't really following the club so closely during the Roland years, I beg the question; on the pitch, was it really that bad when you look back at it objectively? I know people invested a lot of time and emotion in the CARD stuff, so it might be hard to admit. However, our slide as a club seems to have a force beyond Roland and since he's left, it's worsened. He seemed to have us top of League 1/championship strugglers. Who wouldn't accept that right now?

I just wonder if what we are witnessing is the inevitable outcome of bad timing, premier League TV money allocation and escalating parachute payments since we were relegated from the prem. Even a new billionaire wouldn't be able to buy success as we don't have the revenue to satisfy the financial rules. In short, we've missed the boat and should probably accept it.

My niece 's boyfriend spent yesterday at ours and was interesting chatting about his team, Hull City - they went through a similar spat with their foreign owner who wanted to try 'different' things - a stand off ensued between fans and owner etc etc - anyway, they got over that, moved on and are sitting on the fringes of the championship play offs and generally happy with their lot - we have to stop blaming everything on Roland and realise things are a lot more simple - as powell and bowyer proved - neither of whom had a billionaire's money to work with but did know what a good player looked like and how to win a frigging football match 

A bit economic with facts there Doucher. Chris Powell's recruitment to achieve promotion out of this division was financed, heavily. Certain players, such as Wright Philips were here already but the list of people brought in was quite dramatic, Wiggins and Taylor at the back, Holland, Dale Stephens, Andy Hughes and  Green in the middle of the park, Kemorgant up front, replacing Paul Hayes, who had been brought in pre season, I think Ben Hamer was also brought in that season. Bowyers achievement, was even greater in my opinion, yes a squad was here but he lost Karlan Grant mid season and still made the play offs, ultimately winning the final. It takes a good coaching team, yes, but it takes money to put a side together capable of gaining promotion, Ipswich have proved that and their investment was, in my view, comparable with the investment afforded to Chris Powell's squad, both of whom were nailed on certainties to go up.   

The wages budget was cut in 2011, not increased. The recruitment was financed from Arsenal who had been caught tapping up. The spend on players was a fraction of the operating loss (in that sense the club has usually been “heavily financed”). The Spivs never put a penny in to cover the latter - it was all borrowed and ultimately covered by the Belgian.

Ipswich’s spending is of a different order to that under Powell. It’s sad some people still can’t understand that what he and others did was extraordinary, presumably because it just doesn’t fit their preferred narrative about him.

I didn't know that, apologies Doucher, I was always under the impression that the Spivs borrowed the money from the cousin, who eventually took them to court, to finance promotion. 

DOUCHER said:

Bailey said:

DOUCHER said:

Bailey said:

DOUCHER said:

Cloudworm said:

DOUCHER said:

YannTheMann said:

Gribbo said:

Our players and manager are always going to be mediocre as long as we're League 1. Players who are 100% in all areas of their game don't tend to play in League 1, they're usually with Chelsea or City in the Prem.

CBT, for example, getting pelters for not being able to finish a move every time; yeah that's right, because if he did have the finishing touch every time, he wouldn't be playing for Charlton.

Just think the idea is to give a mediocre manager time and support, to get the best out of a team of mediocre players, who each make up for eachother's short falls. The only alternative to that, imo, is to invest heavily, or do a Wrexham and become fashionable overnight.

The most sensible analysis in this thread 

or there's the third option which is what powell and bowyer did - put a good side together with good players in a sensible formation that suits them 

Somehow they were facilitated in that. Billionaire owners don't come round too often.

As someone who wasn't really following the club so closely during the Roland years, I beg the question; on the pitch, was it really that bad when you look back at it objectively? I know people invested a lot of time and emotion in the CARD stuff, so it might be hard to admit. However, our slide as a club seems to have a force beyond Roland and since he's left, it's worsened. He seemed to have us top of League 1/championship strugglers. Who wouldn't accept that right now?

I just wonder if what we are witnessing is the inevitable outcome of bad timing, premier League TV money allocation and escalating parachute payments since we were relegated from the prem. Even a new billionaire wouldn't be able to buy success as we don't have the revenue to satisfy the financial rules. In short, we've missed the boat and should probably accept it.

My niece 's boyfriend spent yesterday at ours and was interesting chatting about his team, Hull City - they went through a similar spat with their foreign owner who wanted to try 'different' things - a stand off ensued between fans and owner etc etc - anyway, they got over that, moved on and are sitting on the fringes of the championship play offs and generally happy with their lot - we have to stop blaming everything on Roland and realise things are a lot more simple - as powell and bowyer proved - neither of whom had a billionaire's money to work with but did know what a good player looked like and how to win a frigging football match 

A bit economic with facts there Doucher. Chris Powell's recruitment to achieve promotion out of this division was financed, heavily. Certain players, such as Wright Philips were here already but the list of people brought in was quite dramatic, Wiggins and Taylor at the back, Holland, Dale Stephens, Andy Hughes and  Green in the middle of the park, Kemorgant up front, replacing Paul Hayes, who had been brought in pre season, I think Ben Hamer was also brought in that season. Bowyers achievement, was even greater in my opinion, yes a squad was here but he lost Karlan Grant mid season and still made the play offs, ultimately winning the final. It takes a good coaching team, yes, but it takes money to put a side together capable of gaining promotion, Ipswich have proved that and their investment was, in my view, comparable with the investment afforded to Chris Powell's squad, both of whom were nailed on certainties to go up.   

not economical with the truth - people on here who were once deemed the oracles were at pains to tell me that the only money powell had to use was from the sale of jenkinson £1.5m  (i remember because i questioned the truth of that)- he was afforded some time however to use the second half of the sesaon before to line up his new players and line up the removal of the one's not in his plans - nothing economical in the truth there and i don't remember any of the players coming in on a big transfer fee - i've seen enough of appleton to know i wouldn't want him anywhere near a re build.  

I think the wages paid to those players were far and above what we were paying at the time Doucher, I wouldn't argue that we had some those players arrive on free's or even end of contract settlements but look at the amount of players brought in for Chris Powell, it was a brand new squad, we did, however, piss the league and were virtually up by February. 

i think its you that is struggling to back up your posiition here - see airman's post above - 2012 and 2018 were fantastic achievements from 2 fantastic football people - they were eventually undone the years after by a lack of funding but the point is, to put a promotion sidfe together does not have to take that long - another example - lennie lawrence 1985 - the greatest of all in modern times is of course alan curbishley and he actually did have time to do a slow steady build / build a culture and all of that stuff but history demonstrates that we do not have to look at charlton like a damaged titanic that is going to take years to turn around - it really doesn't take long - ask Luton. 

We could argue this point all day long Doucher but I think money needs to be spent to correct the current squads deficiencies, Two forwards, a midfielder and a goalkeeper for starters, that's before we lose CBT and Dobson. Appleton has stated that the recruitment in the last three years has been poor, well it's time to change that, and if it is changed and players of quality have been brought in then Appleton will need to produce results or I will join the growing chorus to have him replaced.  

Cloudworm said:

Ok. Who did the Spivs buy it from? 

Also how much did they buy the club, including the ground and Sparrows for, and how much did they sell it for?

Seems our demise is fundamentally linked to the value of the club which used to include real estate, but no longer does. 

I am not sure the point you are making but as has been pointed out to you above the club and ground were always owned by the same people (certainly in the last 30/40 years anyway) until RD separated them.

So, from memory,  Murray pretty much gave the lot to the Spivs for almost nothing iirc, the Spivs sold to RD for £14M I think and he then separated them, sold the club for a £1 to Nimer/Southall who sold that for £1-2M to sandgaard who sold it for £10-12M to the current lot.

RD destroyed the fan base, funded us to remain in L1 and separated assets from club. He was the driving force of what we have now and his decision to sell to Southall who he knew was a wrong'un from his departing comments left us stuffed.  He was and remains the worst thing to have happened to this club and I am utterly convinced of that. We would 100% not be better off if he was still in charge.

I do not understand the hate for MA, we have had his photo on this forum for years, every time there is talk of a new manager, (and there has been plenty), someone puts his photo up. Obviously some on here have wanted him for a long while. Happy new year 🤣🥳

Booing the likes of Asiimwe and Campbell when they’re young players (18 and 20 respectively) trying their best is nothing better than toxic.

Fans responsible for that kind of stuff do not deserve a successful football club. Be upset with the team in general if you must but singled out abuse which will actively destroy players is not on.

DOUCHER said:

Off_it said:

swords_alive said:

1968CAFC said:

Complete Shite !!
players, manager and owners are all taking the piss, otherwise they are all completely incompetent!!!

I think it's deeper and terminal. We have not replaced good charlton people like Roy King, Chris Parkes, Peter Varney, Rick Everitt and others with similarly minded, hard working and influential people, I.e. Charlton people inside the club. These provided the cultural framework in which the ethos of the club was grounded, grew and flourished in a previous era. It defined the Charlton that a significant portion of the fan base could relate to and against which Curbs could go and recruit squad players with the right work ethic, and lennie Lawrence before him and Chris Powell after him. I have no insider knowledge and hope I'm wrong but feel these missing personalities are part of the issue. Times have changed, slowly and quietly, like when you have a frog in a pan of water and turn the gas up gradually. The frog doesn't die straight away but it might eventually if it can't escape. Charlton as we knew it has changed now. We are a boiled frog and our era has passed.

Roy King?!

stadium manager from about 30 years ago - not sure his absence is quite as critical to our current demise as having a shit manager and a bunch of largely shit players 

I've mistakenly named Roy then probably. There were others with bigger roles no doubt. Decent long term employees that we are missing and it's corrosive to our operating culture and identity.

NabySarr said:

Croydon said:

No one booed Asimwe and Campbell directly, nor was the 'fckin useless' chant aimed at them. Boos rang out after the goal and after several passages of poor play, and again after the final whistle.

Being in the away end, it seemed pretty clear that the voicing of displeasure was being aimed at the group and performance as a whole, not at individual players. 

Asiimwe played a poor pass to Campbell who couldn’t control it and it went off for a throw in. This was immediately followed with sings of fckin useless, even if it wasn’t the intention, it definitely looked like it was directed at them as they had just lost the ball and were right in front of the away end 

Other than that one incident I think the fans response was completely fair though

It certainly makes the fans feel better. Whether it’s helpful, or counter productive, is up for debate. If players are clearly not trying then it might well be the kick in the arse they need. Sadly, I suspect ours are trying, they’re just either not very good, or can’t understand or implement what the manager wants. 

NabySarr said:

Croydon said:

No one booed Asimwe and Campbell directly, nor was the 'fckin useless' chant aimed at them. Boos rang out after the goal and after several passages of poor play, and again after the final whistle.

Being in the away end, it seemed pretty clear that the voicing of displeasure was being aimed at the group and performance as a whole, not at individual players. 

Asiimwe played a poor pass to Campbell who couldn’t control it and it went off for a throw in. This was immediately followed with sings of fckin useless, even if it wasn’t the intention, it definitely looked like it was directed at them as they had just lost the ball and were right in front of the away end 

Other than that one incident I think the fans response was completely fair though

I'd have thought the fact we chanted that last Saturday and more than once yesterday would have made it obvious it wasn't just at those two, but I understand your point.

Does really highlight the demise of Campbell though. He is currently putting in some of the worst performances we've ever seen by a Charlton player, when he had initially shown some promise .

Croydon said:

NabySarr said:

Croydon said:

No one booed Asimwe and Campbell directly, nor was the 'fckin useless' chant aimed at them. Boos rang out after the goal and after several passages of poor play, and again after the final whistle.

Being in the away end, it seemed pretty clear that the voicing of displeasure was being aimed at the group and performance as a whole, not at individual players. 

Asiimwe played a poor pass to Campbell who couldn’t control it and it went off for a throw in. This was immediately followed with sings of fckin useless, even if it wasn’t the intention, it definitely looked like it was directed at them as they had just lost the ball and were right in front of the away end 

Other than that one incident I think the fans response was completely fair though

I'd have thought the fact we chanted that last Saturday and more than once yesterday would have made it obvious it wasn't just at those two, but I understand your point.

Does really highlight the demise of Campbell though. He is currently putting in some of the worst performances we've ever seen by a Charlton player, when he had initially shown some promise .

Campbell has regressed drastically imo, I don't think he's even playing to a standard that would see him start for a lower league 2 or national league side. 

If we are honest, a lot of our youth have fallen off quite a bit. Asiimwe and Anderson started off so well, Nath looks pony now and Anderson doesn't even get a look in. Deji should have stayed at Bromley where it was good for his development.

Campbell and Kanu definitely should be on loan though, both shouldn't be anywhere near a league 1 squad right now.