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Electric Cars
Comments
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Interesting post @Major0
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Here's a properly sourced and referenced thing on, not some stuff some bloke from down the pubs second cousin put on facebook
https://www.sustainabilitybynumbers.com/p/ev-fossil-cars-climate#:~:text=In this post, I crunch,that rely heavily on coal.
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Would like to see something to back this up. In theory, electric cars should be more reliable than ICE cars just simply due to less moving parts and minimal need for maintenance. Of course things go wrong and from what I've read most issues are software related (which could go for any modern car). Sure if something went wrong with a battery pack it would be costly but given the majority of EVs on the road will be from new then a warranty would cover this. Equally if something serious happened to the engine of an ICE it is usally not an insignificant amount to get that fixed.ShootersHillGuru said:
I think they’re cheaper to run but just pray that yours doesn’t go wrong. I understand the repairs are expensive and quite common.JamesSeed said:
I'd agree if the alternative is to scrap your car, but most people will be selling or part exchanging theirs.MuttleyCAFC said:My belief is EVs are a bit like the low cc eco boost engines. When new, they were a relevation but they have been phased out because they were rubbish in the longer term as the were too complicated and unreliable. The Ford eco boost is probably the worst engine ever made. The car companies made their money on these cars and dropped them. It is obvious hydrogen will be the solution and whilst the technology isn't there yet, they are getting there and the advantage is the current infrastucture can be used and there would be less pressure on the National Grid. Electric cars are the solution for today and partly because the true eco cost is not properly calculated. The best solution for today would be to keep your cars (family sized cars with reasonable mpg) for longer. Making and disposing of cars will give a truer picture of how eco friendly cars are.
One reason that I want to buy one is that the cost of charging it (per mile) is quite a lot lower than the cost of petrol, even with the recent increase in energy costs. Also my car will start depreciating quite rapidly soon, so I want to sell it while it's still worth something. Our main car usage, mileage wise, has been the drive to Suffolk to see my mother-in-law, but sadly she passed away just before Christmas.0 -
Do you know where this information actually came from? I've heard there's a huge amount of misinformation flying around about electric cars, funded by the oil industry.Major said:Someone sent me this. Bit of an eye opener for me:This is a Tesla model Y battery. It takes up all of the space under the passenger compartment of the car.
To manufacture it you need:
--12 tons of rock to extract the Lithium
-- 5 tons of rock to obtain the cobalt minerals (Most cobalt is made as a byproduct of the processing of copper and nickel ores. It is the most difficult material to obtain for a battery and the most expensive.)
-- 3 tons of nickel ore
-- 12 tons of copper ore
You must move 250 tons of soil to obtain:
-- 26.5 pounds of Lithium
-- 30 pounds of nickel
-- 48.5 pounds of manganese
-- 15 pounds of cobalt
To manufacture the battery also requires:
-- 441 pounds of aluminum, steel and/or plastic
-- 112 pounds of graphite
The Caterpillar 994A is used for the earthmoving to obtain the essential minerals. It consumes 264 gallons of diesel in 12 hours.
Finally you get a “zero emissions” car.
Presently, the bulk of the necessary minerals for manufacturing the batteries come from China or Africa. Much of the labour for extracting the minerals in Africa is done by children. If we buy electric cars, it's China who profits most!
This 2021 Tesla Model Y OEM battery (the cheapest Tesla battery) is currently for sale on the Internet on the USA for $4,999 not including shipping or installation. The battery weighs 1,000 pounds (you can imagine the shipping cost).
The cost to replace Tesla batteries is:
Model 3 -- $14,000+ (Car MSRP $38,990)
Model Y -- $5,000–$5,500 (Car MSRP $47,740)
Model S -- $13,000–$20,000 (Car MSRP $74,990)
Model X -- $13,000+ (Car MSRP $79,990)
It takes SEVEN years for an electric car to reach net-zero CO2. The life expectancy of the batteries is 10 years (average).
Only in the last three years do you begin to reduce your carbon footprint. Then the batteries have to be replaced and you lose all the gains you made in those three years.
In addition electric cars are heavier than cars powered by internal combustion engines and cause more wear and tare on tyres, bridges and roads. They also increase the demand for electricity much of which in countries like China and India is generated by coal-fired power stations.
Are Teslas and other similar electric cars really that green? Sent from my iPad
https://www.forbes.com/sites/enriquedans/2018/07/03/electric-vehicles-and-disinformation/?sh=58b1de3f31e5
https://fleetworld.co.uk/mps-back-campaign-to-stop-electric-vehicle-misinformation/
The article states: 'It takes SEVEN years for an electric car to reach net-zero CO2.' I have no idea if that's true, but even if it is, can a petrol or diesel car ever reach net-zero CO2?
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The one I'm looking at has a 6-year, 93,750 mile overall warranty with the motor covered for eight years. The battery is guaranteed for eight years and 125,000 miles, which isn't too bad.ShootersHillGuru said:
I think they’re cheaper to run but just pray that yours doesn’t go wrong. I understand the repairs are expensive and quite common.JamesSeed said:
I'd agree if the alternative is to scrap your car, but most people will be selling or part exchanging theirs.MuttleyCAFC said:My belief is EVs are a bit like the low cc eco boost engines. When new, they were a relevation but they have been phased out because they were rubbish in the longer term as the were too complicated and unreliable. The Ford eco boost is probably the worst engine ever made. The car companies made their money on these cars and dropped them. It is obvious hydrogen will be the solution and whilst the technology isn't there yet, they are getting there and the advantage is the current infrastucture can be used and there would be less pressure on the National Grid. Electric cars are the solution for today and partly because the true eco cost is not properly calculated. The best solution for today would be to keep your cars (family sized cars with reasonable mpg) for longer. Making and disposing of cars will give a truer picture of how eco friendly cars are.
One reason that I want to buy one is that the cost of charging it (per mile) is quite a lot lower than the cost of petrol, even with the recent increase in energy costs. Also my car will start depreciating quite rapidly soon, so I want to sell it while it's still worth something. Our main car usage, mileage wise, has been the drive to Suffolk to see my mother-in-law, but sadly she passed away just before Christmas.1 -
To combat the huge amount of misinformation flying about funded by the EV industry ? Just saying.JamesSeed said:
Do you know where this information actually came from? I've heard there's a huge amount of misinformation flying around about electric cars, funded by the oil industry.Major said:Someone sent me this. Bit of an eye opener for me:This is a Tesla model Y battery. It takes up all of the space under the passenger compartment of the car.
To manufacture it you need:
--12 tons of rock to extract the Lithium
-- 5 tons of rock to obtain the cobalt minerals (Most cobalt is made as a byproduct of the processing of copper and nickel ores. It is the most difficult material to obtain for a battery and the most expensive.)
-- 3 tons of nickel ore
-- 12 tons of copper ore
You must move 250 tons of soil to obtain:
-- 26.5 pounds of Lithium
-- 30 pounds of nickel
-- 48.5 pounds of manganese
-- 15 pounds of cobalt
To manufacture the battery also requires:
-- 441 pounds of aluminum, steel and/or plastic
-- 112 pounds of graphite
The Caterpillar 994A is used for the earthmoving to obtain the essential minerals. It consumes 264 gallons of diesel in 12 hours.
Finally you get a “zero emissions” car.
Presently, the bulk of the necessary minerals for manufacturing the batteries come from China or Africa. Much of the labour for extracting the minerals in Africa is done by children. If we buy electric cars, it's China who profits most!
This 2021 Tesla Model Y OEM battery (the cheapest Tesla battery) is currently for sale on the Internet on the USA for $4,999 not including shipping or installation. The battery weighs 1,000 pounds (you can imagine the shipping cost).
The cost to replace Tesla batteries is:
Model 3 -- $14,000+ (Car MSRP $38,990)
Model Y -- $5,000–$5,500 (Car MSRP $47,740)
Model S -- $13,000–$20,000 (Car MSRP $74,990)
Model X -- $13,000+ (Car MSRP $79,990)
It takes SEVEN years for an electric car to reach net-zero CO2. The life expectancy of the batteries is 10 years (average).
Only in the last three years do you begin to reduce your carbon footprint. Then the batteries have to be replaced and you lose all the gains you made in those three years.
In addition electric cars are heavier than cars powered by internal combustion engines and cause more wear and tare on tyres, bridges and roads. They also increase the demand for electricity much of which in countries like China and India is generated by coal-fired power stations.
Are Teslas and other similar electric cars really that green? Sent from my iPad
https://www.forbes.com/sites/enriquedans/2018/07/03/electric-vehicles-and-disinformation/?sh=58b1de3f31e5
https://fleetworld.co.uk/mps-back-campaign-to-stop-electric-vehicle-misinformation/2 -
I have an electric car, I have it on PCP, my last five cars have been financed the same way and although it's a more expensive way to finance a new car, it works for me. As for electric cars, fastest vehicle I have ever been in and cheap as chips to run. I would however, go back to a hybrid, as I preferred the convenience, am I saving the planet, not sure, I am however, not filling children's or anyone else's lungs with poisonous fumes and whatever people say about electric cars, that is an undeniable truth.ShootersHillGuru said:
I think they’re cheaper to run but just pray that yours doesn’t go wrong. I understand the repairs are expensive and quite common.JamesSeed said:
I'd agree if the alternative is to scrap your car, but most people will be selling or part exchanging theirs.MuttleyCAFC said:My belief is EVs are a bit like the low cc eco boost engines. When new, they were a relevation but they have been phased out because they were rubbish in the longer term as the were too complicated and unreliable. The Ford eco boost is probably the worst engine ever made. The car companies made their money on these cars and dropped them. It is obvious hydrogen will be the solution and whilst the technology isn't there yet, they are getting there and the advantage is the current infrastucture can be used and there would be less pressure on the National Grid. Electric cars are the solution for today and partly because the true eco cost is not properly calculated. The best solution for today would be to keep your cars (family sized cars with reasonable mpg) for longer. Making and disposing of cars will give a truer picture of how eco friendly cars are.
One reason that I want to buy one is that the cost of charging it (per mile) is quite a lot lower than the cost of petrol, even with the recent increase in energy costs. Also my car will start depreciating quite rapidly soon, so I want to sell it while it's still worth something. Our main car usage, mileage wise, has been the drive to Suffolk to see my mother-in-law, but sadly she passed away just before Christmas.0 -
That headline is a little misleading. From the report that is taken from the 80% they use is the average difference of problem rates over the last three model years. There also seems to be a distinct lack of any detail about what these problems are or how severe they are.ShootersHillGuru said:0 -
Perhaps this is a naive question but how wiil the services(police.Ambulance.and fire) get on wheh they do away with Petrol and Diesel cars.I cant see a police car chassing a criminal at 100 miles plus down the Motoway in a Battery car.Perhaps they will use Duracell as they last longer.0
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"More torque, more horse power, better acceleration, better braking..."Derek1952 said:Perhaps this is a naive question but how wiil the services(police.Ambulance.and fire) get on wheh they do away with Petrol and Diesel cars.I cant see a police car chassing a criminal at 100 miles plus down the Motoway in a Battery car.Perhaps they will use Duracell as they last longer.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R1e-_tFeLHA
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I wont consider one with a warranty less than 94kJamesSeed said:
The one I'm looking at has a 6-year, 93,750 mile overall warranty with the motor covered for eight years. The battery is guaranteed for eight years and 125,000 miles, which isn't too bad.ShootersHillGuru said:
I think they’re cheaper to run but just pray that yours doesn’t go wrong. I understand the repairs are expensive and quite common.JamesSeed said:
I'd agree if the alternative is to scrap your car, but most people will be selling or part exchanging theirs.MuttleyCAFC said:My belief is EVs are a bit like the low cc eco boost engines. When new, they were a relevation but they have been phased out because they were rubbish in the longer term as the were too complicated and unreliable. The Ford eco boost is probably the worst engine ever made. The car companies made their money on these cars and dropped them. It is obvious hydrogen will be the solution and whilst the technology isn't there yet, they are getting there and the advantage is the current infrastucture can be used and there would be less pressure on the National Grid. Electric cars are the solution for today and partly because the true eco cost is not properly calculated. The best solution for today would be to keep your cars (family sized cars with reasonable mpg) for longer. Making and disposing of cars will give a truer picture of how eco friendly cars are.
One reason that I want to buy one is that the cost of charging it (per mile) is quite a lot lower than the cost of petrol, even with the recent increase in energy costs. Also my car will start depreciating quite rapidly soon, so I want to sell it while it's still worth something. Our main car usage, mileage wise, has been the drive to Suffolk to see my mother-in-law, but sadly she passed away just before Christmas.3 -
Was chatting to BTP coppers who are road testing Tesla Model 3s and Polestar 2s, and they fucking loved them2
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Thanks for video very interesting.
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That's not quite the same thing though. Of course with any new tech there will be teething problems. Remember how unreliable cars were, even as late as the 1970s or even 80s? I seemed to spend half my life on the motorway hard shoulder when various of my cars hand conked out, waiting for the AA 😂ShootersHillGuru said:
The misinformation sponsored by the oil industry I find quite sinister personally. Several of those Tufton Street think tanks are funded by 'big oil' although they refuse to admit it. It's only recently that news organisation are beginning to be aware of that.2 -
The batteries can give you way over two hundred miles, depending on the make of car, some even more, so I doubt that's going to be a problem Derek. My mate has a Hyundai Ionic EV, and he says it's the fastest car he's ever driven. 0-60 in under four seconds and a top speed of 162 MPH. Range is only 174 miles though.Derek1952 said:Perhaps this is a naive question but how wiil the services(police.Ambulance.and fire) get on wheh they do away with Petrol and Diesel cars.I cant see a police car chassing a criminal at 100 miles plus down the Motoway in a Battery car.Perhaps they will use Duracell as they last longer.0 -
Tesla 3 has a range of 300-400 miles (depending on model) and Polestar 400 miles.0
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Of course most of my journeys like most people are local so no big deal if I decided to get an EV. However I’m based in West Yorkshire so for family and other reasons I return to SE London on a reasonably regular basis. If my EV gave me 200 miles it wouldn’t get me there. Another full charge wouldn’t get me home. Might sound a bit daft but that alone puts me in two minds.0
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I think cars peaked in the 90s in terms of reliability. Fuel Injection was standard, and computers had yet to take over cars to the extent that you could still fix stuff by yourself.JamesSeed said:
That's not quite the same thing though. Of course with any new tech there will be teething problems. Remember how unreliable cars were, even as late as the 1970s or even 80s? I seemed to spend half my life on the motorway hard shoulder when various of my cars hand conked out, waiting for the AA 😂ShootersHillGuru said:
The misinformation sponsored by the oil industry I find quite sinister personally. Several of those Tufton Street think tanks are funded by 'big oil' although they refuse to admit it. It's only recently that news organisation are beginning to be aware of that.0 -
Looks like a Tesla 3 then if it’s 300 to 400 miles.ShootersHillGuru said:Of course most of my journeys like most people are local so no big deal if I decided to get an EV. However I’m based in West Yorkshire so for family and other reasons I return to SE London on a reasonably regular basis. If my EV gave me 200 miles it wouldn’t get me there. Another full charge wouldn’t get me home. Might sound a bit daft but that alone puts me in two minds.This one is over 250 https://www.byd.com/uk/car/dolphin0 -
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For me, the "can the national grid cope with EVs" question (which is a false one) is more than mitigated by the vehicle to grid proposals.
Absolutely fascinating and probably the most important thing that will come from EV technology in my opinion.
In fact, in my opinion it will be one of the key things that stops the reliance on fossil fuels.
Imagine millions of batteries that renewable energy charges up, then draws on when required.
The biggest "fault" of renewables is that they are not consistently reliable in terms of output, but the ability to charge cars to 100% and then drain them to 80% whilst paying the car owner a higher rate than what they paid to charge it in the first place, a "rental" fee if you will, will completely change the ability for renewables and nuclear to be the future.
I'm seriously considering getting one soon, wife has a salary sacrifice scheme through work that looks pretty tax efficient to me... She recently passed her test and couldn't believe the lack of camera parking sensors in our 2016 BMW..0 -
I did a road trip in a Renault Zoe at Christmas 2022, went from south London to Manchester and then Liverpool and then back. The range of those is only about 170 at motorway speeds and in the cold. Never had an issue with a stop off at a service station for a quick break, grab a coffee, came back and I'd enough charge to get me to through the next leg. I've got a bigger EV now with a much longer range so it would be even easier, I think Tesla's charge from about 20% to 80% in around 30 minutes using on of their superchargers, depending on the model that's around 180 miles in the time it takes to stop off for a quick break and a drink.ShootersHillGuru said:Of course most of my journeys like most people are local so no big deal if I decided to get an EV. However I’m based in West Yorkshire so for family and other reasons I return to SE London on a reasonably regular basis. If my EV gave me 200 miles it wouldn’t get me there. Another full charge wouldn’t get me home. Might sound a bit daft but that alone puts me in two minds.
Obviously really long distances for EVs at the moment are a slight issue as it will add some time to a journey but if you're traveling the length of the country you're probably stopping for a break anyway so the additional time then is minimal.4 -
They don’t use the train then.Rothko said:Was chatting to BTP coppers who are road testing Tesla Model 3s and Polestar 2s, and they fucking loved themNo hope for us ditching our cars then in favour of public transport 😆0 -
I can second that in terms of performance I have an EV6 which is stupidly rapid. Not that I use it as it is too scary tbh but if I press the sport mode button it is off the chart tbh imo dangerousJamesSeed said:
The batteries can give you way over two hundred miles, depending on the make of car, some even more, so I doubt that's going to be a problem Derek. My mate has a Hyundai Ionic EV, and he says it's the fastest car he's ever driven. 0-60 in under four seconds and a top speed of 162 MPH. Range is only 174 miles though.Derek1952 said:Perhaps this is a naive question but how wiil the services(police.Ambulance.and fire) get on wheh they do away with Petrol and Diesel cars.I cant see a police car chassing a criminal at 100 miles plus down the Motoway in a Battery car.Perhaps they will use Duracell as they last longer.1 -
I've done a few trips from the South of England to Glasgow in my EV. The only hassle I find is actually planning the stops in advance. I stop 3 times to charge but find the breaks quite welcoming and split up the journey well and in general would probably be toilet and coffee stops I'd be making regardless.colthe3rd said:
I did a road trip in a Renault Zoe at Christmas 2022, went from south London to Manchester and then Liverpool and then back. The range of those is only about 170 at motorway speeds and in the cold. Never had an issue with a stop off at a service station for a quick break, grab a coffee, came back and I'd enough charge to get me to through the next leg. I've got a bigger EV now with a much longer range so it would be even easier, I think Tesla's charge from about 20% to 80% in around 30 minutes using on of their superchargers, depending on the model that's around 180 miles in the time it takes to stop off for a quick break and a drink.ShootersHillGuru said:Of course most of my journeys like most people are local so no big deal if I decided to get an EV. However I’m based in West Yorkshire so for family and other reasons I return to SE London on a reasonably regular basis. If my EV gave me 200 miles it wouldn’t get me there. Another full charge wouldn’t get me home. Might sound a bit daft but that alone puts me in two minds.
Obviously really long distances for EVs at the moment are a slight issue as it will add some time to a journey but if you're traveling the length of the country you're probably stopping for a break anyway so the additional time then is minimal.2 -
Is cars being more rapid a good thing? Might be good for undertakers.1
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Too small for my needs.JamesSeed said:
Looks like a Tesla 3 then if it’s 300 to 400 miles.ShootersHillGuru said:Of course most of my journeys like most people are local so no big deal if I decided to get an EV. However I’m based in West Yorkshire so for family and other reasons I return to SE London on a reasonably regular basis. If my EV gave me 200 miles it wouldn’t get me there. Another full charge wouldn’t get me home. Might sound a bit daft but that alone puts me in two minds.This one is over 250 https://www.byd.com/uk/car/dolphin0 -
Not to detract from the excellent information in your post but I never stop for a coffee or a break when driving Leeds to London. Having to do so would really irritate me. Also when I get to London on my regular visits to visit my father in law I couldn’t charge my EV at his house. Having to drive to somewhere and spend the time doing so would also irritate me. Sounds like I’m just creating problems where there are none but at this point an EV is not for me.colthe3rd said:
I did a road trip in a Renault Zoe at Christmas 2022, went from south London to Manchester and then Liverpool and then back. The range of those is only about 170 at motorway speeds and in the cold. Never had an issue with a stop off at a service station for a quick break, grab a coffee, came back and I'd enough charge to get me to through the next leg. I've got a bigger EV now with a much longer range so it would be even easier, I think Tesla's charge from about 20% to 80% in around 30 minutes using on of their superchargers, depending on the model that's around 180 miles in the time it takes to stop off for a quick break and a drink.ShootersHillGuru said:Of course most of my journeys like most people are local so no big deal if I decided to get an EV. However I’m based in West Yorkshire so for family and other reasons I return to SE London on a reasonably regular basis. If my EV gave me 200 miles it wouldn’t get me there. Another full charge wouldn’t get me home. Might sound a bit daft but that alone puts me in two minds.
Obviously really long distances for EVs at the moment are a slight issue as it will add some time to a journey but if you're traveling the length of the country you're probably stopping for a break anyway so the additional time then is minimal.3 -
EVs have the same speed limits as other carsMuttleyCAFC said:Is cars being more rapid a good thing? Might be good for undertakers.0 -
That's fine but like has been said there are cars available that can manage over 250 miles. Also if you're driving to South London there are plenty of on street lamp post charging spots available to leave it while you are visiting. Tbf it does sound like you are creating problems as every time someone suggests a solution there's always another reason. If you don't want one that's absolutely fine to say so and obviously it's personal choice at the moment but equally posting scare stories from the media or things you've heard from others doesn't add much to the discussion.ShootersHillGuru said:
Not to detract from the excellent information in your post but I never stop for a coffee or a break when driving Leeds to London. Having to do so would really irritate me. Also when I get to London on my regular visits to visit my father in law I couldn’t charge my EV at his house. Having to drive to somewhere and spend the time doing so would also irritate me. Sounds like I’m just creating problems where there are none but at this point an EV is not for me.colthe3rd said:
I did a road trip in a Renault Zoe at Christmas 2022, went from south London to Manchester and then Liverpool and then back. The range of those is only about 170 at motorway speeds and in the cold. Never had an issue with a stop off at a service station for a quick break, grab a coffee, came back and I'd enough charge to get me to through the next leg. I've got a bigger EV now with a much longer range so it would be even easier, I think Tesla's charge from about 20% to 80% in around 30 minutes using on of their superchargers, depending on the model that's around 180 miles in the time it takes to stop off for a quick break and a drink.ShootersHillGuru said:Of course most of my journeys like most people are local so no big deal if I decided to get an EV. However I’m based in West Yorkshire so for family and other reasons I return to SE London on a reasonably regular basis. If my EV gave me 200 miles it wouldn’t get me there. Another full charge wouldn’t get me home. Might sound a bit daft but that alone puts me in two minds.
Obviously really long distances for EVs at the moment are a slight issue as it will add some time to a journey but if you're traveling the length of the country you're probably stopping for a break anyway so the additional time then is minimal.0
