Sidcup: Hundreds of motorists fined over A20 road sign error
Comments
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cantersaddick said:
Yeah I can understand this sort of thing can happen occasionally. Its people getting done regularly on roads without changes I don't get.Athletico Charlton said:I've been caught twice now. 26mph on a dual carriageway which had changed to 20mph a week before. I drive up it to every Charlton home game so admittedly just wasn't looking for new speed signs like I imagine most don't on roads they commonly drive.
Second time on the A20 doing 49mph on a road which I thought I was driving at a very sensible speed on and which had previously been 70mph. It was a dry day with no flooding around.
Not a sob story but seems harsh I have paid out £210 and have 3 points for that. I can certainly see merit in increasing the number of points for a ban.
Definitely more people will be getting bans now than previously which means losing jobs/more difficult to work and that isn't good for anyone.
Add in a fine for driving down a road which had recently been changed to pedestrian only between 14.30-16.00 because it has a school on it but this was on a small sign not any form of bollard restriction etc. There are sooo many signs now you have to spend half your time looking out for them instead of looking at the road. Speed limits on roads change every 100m or so on some stretches it has all just got ridiculous.
I suspect other countries like America there is simply more consistency and it is easier to follow but maybe I am wrong about that.
Out of interest do you use a maps/driving app like google maps/waze? these are great at alerting you of speed cameras (often even mobile ones), I use them all the time even on journeys I know (unless its really short). Its useful for unexpected traffic etc. and finding a better route and the speed camera warnings is a bonus.
Regularly use Waze but not when I know where I am going (maybe I should). It also hadn't been updated re the school road and was what took me down there.1 -
Rob7Lee said:Whilst you can be ‘unlucky’ with mobile cameras and the like, it’s mostly down to driving behaviours.
i was taught by the then head of met driving, this was 1989 and he took me into motorways and taught me what to look for, vehicles on bridges, side of road/motorway, and more than anything always viewing what’s at your furthest point away.35 years on and touch wood I’ve never had a speeding ticket despite driving some very fast cars in that time.
On the speed awareness course I did there was a chap who is on the police motor offence team. 🤣🤣4 -
I use a Garmin satnav. It gets updated with speed cameras and limits. Bleeps when you go over the limit. Decent traffic updates and alternative routes.cantersaddick said:
Yeah I can understand this sort of thing can happen occasionally. Its people getting done regularly on roads without changes I don't get.Athletico Charlton said:I've been caught twice now. 26mph on a dual carriageway which had changed to 20mph a week before. I drive up it to every Charlton home game so admittedly just wasn't looking for new speed signs like I imagine most don't on roads they commonly drive.
Second time on the A20 doing 49mph on a road which I thought I was driving at a very sensible speed on and which had previously been 70mph. It was a dry day with no flooding around.
Not a sob story but seems harsh I have paid out £210 and have 3 points for that. I can certainly see merit in increasing the number of points for a ban.
Definitely more people will be getting bans now than previously which means losing jobs/more difficult to work and that isn't good for anyone.
Add in a fine for driving down a road which had recently been changed to pedestrian only between 14.30-16.00 because it has a school on it but this was on a small sign not any form of bollard restriction etc. There are sooo many signs now you have to spend half your time looking out for them instead of looking at the road. Speed limits on roads change every 100m or so on some stretches it has all just got ridiculous.
I suspect other countries like America there is simply more consistency and it is easier to follow but maybe I am wrong about that.
Out of interest do you use a maps/driving app like google maps/waze? these are great at alerting you of speed cameras (often even mobile ones), I use them all the time even on journeys I know (unless its really short). Its useful for unexpected traffic etc. and finding a better route and the speed camera warnings is a bonus.2 -
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I think it's time TFL details exactly the dates the signs were changed. I use that stretch a lot & my earliest recollection of it not being even 50 mph was on Boxing Day.man_at_milletts said:0 -
It’s time TFL said when they are going to fix the flooding problem which has necessitated the speed limit reduction in the first place !
I think we a££ know the answer to that one.0 -
I certainly don't remember it being last Autumn. Thought it was around Christmas time.golfaddick said:
I think it's time TFL details exactly the dates the signs were changed. I use that stretch a lot & my earliest recollection of it not being even 50 mph was on Boxing Day.man_at_milletts said:
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Did my Speed Awareness Course this morning. So for me it’s case closed. But, feel for the guys queuing up to go to court with their 4,5,6 tickets.0
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Always wondered if you have to let your insurance company know if you just do the awareness course?RaplhMilne said:Did my Speed Awareness Course this morning. So for me it’s case closed. But, feel for the guys queuing up to go to court with their 4,5,6 tickets.1 -
He still got a ban, but only 28 days.man_at_milletts said:
I still think the 50mph sign is a red herring. Out of all the signs it was just one, and that was as you approach the BP garage just before the (40mph) speed restrictions ends. So even if you went up from 40-50mph at that sign it's unlikely you would get a ticket as it's average speed and it's literally 100 yards to the end from the sign.
It's more a case of people being unaware of the reduction to 40mph way back from the garage. I remember reading about it when it came in (can't remember if just after or before) and not sure where you'd get to as by not looking at the speed limit signs just because you drive the road a lot isn't really a great excuse a court are likely to go with.
It changed beginning of October from memory.
https://www.newsshopper.co.uk/news/23837144.tfl-changes-a20-sidcup-speed-limit-with-no-warning/#:~:text=They%20explained%20said%3A%20%E2%80%9CA%20new,t%20suitable%20for%20the%20road.
https://tfl.gov.uk/corporate/transparency/freedom-of-information/foi-request-detail?referenceId=FOI-2679-2324
https://freedomfordrivers.blog/2023/10/01/the-war-on-the-motorist-and-new-a20-speed-limit/
Also not sure how true but:
"Metropolitan Police said one incorrect 50mph sign was displayed, at most, between 17 and 25 January."
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I believe you have to let your insurance company know if you get any penalty points o your licence.DaveMehmet said:
Always wondered if you have to let your insurance company know if you just do the awareness course?RaplhMilne said:Did my Speed Awareness Course this morning. So for me it’s case closed. But, feel for the guys queuing up to go to court with their 4,5,6 tickets.
The reason for doing a speed awareness course is so that you don't incur any points and therefore you don't have to tell your insurance company.0 -
DaveMehmet said:
Always wondered if you have to let your insurance company know if you just do the awareness course?RaplhMilne said:Did my Speed Awareness Course this morning. So for me it’s case closed. But, feel for the guys queuing up to go to court with their 4,5,6 tickets.
I did the course a couple of weeks ago and the instructor specifically said that you don't need to tell the insurer unless they ask you.1 -
No…. Once you done the course your all clear, and it’s not recorded at DVLC. However, is on Police National computer so you can’t do another course within 3 years. You’d have to take the points.DaveMehmet said:
Always wondered if you have to let your insurance company know if you just do the awareness course?RaplhMilne said:Did my Speed Awareness Course this morning. So for me it’s case closed. But, feel for the guys queuing up to go to court with their 4,5,6 tickets.1 -
Most insurers now ask if you have attended a speed awareness course at point of sale/quote.blackpool72 said:
I believe you have to let your insurance company know if you get any penalty points o your licence.DaveMehmet said:
Always wondered if you have to let your insurance company know if you just do the awareness course?RaplhMilne said:Did my Speed Awareness Course this morning. So for me it’s case closed. But, feel for the guys queuing up to go to court with their 4,5,6 tickets.
The reason for doing a speed awareness course is so that you don't incur any points and therefore you don't have to tell your insurance company.
EDIT: but don't believe they can find out/know.
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The advice you should rely on regard whether you need to report attendance on a speed awareness course to your insurer can be found on the UK Road Offender education site.
See https://www.ukroed.org.uk/faqs/how-will-attendence-on-an-ndors-course-affect-my-insurance/
In a nutshell, the response that is carried on the website states that legal advice is that attendance on an NDORS course is not a conviction, nor should it be treated as a conviction, unlike a fixed penalty. So, unless the question regarding NDORS course attendance and completion is specifically asked at the time of taking out the policy, or at any other time during the lifetime of the policy, there is no obligation whatsoever on a driver who has completed an NDORS course to disclose this to their insurers.
But beware! As always, the detail is in the small print so check this and the advice on the website. Don't rely on my advice!
I'm not sure how widespread insurers asking if you have attended a speed awareness course is - personally I didn't think it was that widespread.Finally, just to confirm as others have said, NDORS Data is not shared with insurance companies and they have no access to it.
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Athletico Charlton said:I've been caught twice now. 26mph on a dual carriageway which had changed to 20mph a week before. I drive up it to every Charlton home game so admittedly just wasn't looking for new speed signs like I imagine most don't on roads they commonly drive.
Second time on the A20 doing 49mph on a road which I thought I was driving at a very sensible speed on and which had previously been 70mph. It was a dry day with no flooding around.
Not a sob story but seems harsh I have paid out £210 and have 3 points for that. I can certainly see merit in increasing the number of points for a ban.
Definitely more people will be getting bans now than previously which means losing jobs/more difficult to work and that isn't good for anyone.
Add in a fine for driving down a road which had recently been changed to pedestrian only between 14.30-16.00 because it has a school on it but this was on a small sign not any form of bollard restriction etc. There are sooo many signs now you have to spend half your time looking out for them instead of looking at the road. Speed limits on roads change every 100m or so on some stretches it has all just got ridiculous.
I suspect other countries like America there is simply more consistency and it is easier to follow but maybe I am wrong about that.
Feck me, it's a sob story now!
The £100 fine I paid for driving 49mph on the A20 was refunded, and then replaced with one for over £700!!!
My first 3 points ever on my licence and doing 49mph on a road that a week earlier was 70mph. Absolute piss take.0 -
The powers that be, have to keep folk driving and topping up the coffers.Motorways at the moment are just a series of traps, with limits reduced for no reason. Was on M25 recently (not in roadworks areas) and it went to 40 on a gantry, then 60 at the next, then 50.Makes no sense, even worse when there was no obvious reason.Same with the 20 mph/ LTN, and school streets - just TFL topping up the bank after Covid.Treasury rumours are that road pricing will be mentioned in the October 24 budget.3
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To get a reduced insurance premium I have an Admiral spy box connected. It means I have to stick to speed limits but it has reasonable tolerances. It records and gives feedback on every trip and have found I can cruise on a motorway at 75mph without a problem. I'm assuming it has at least a 10% tolerance. It is more sensitive to hard braking and cornering and is linked to your phone so knows if you move your phone while driving.
One frustrating thing is that the rate of automatic acceleration when changing up the cruise control level by more than a few mph gets logged as excessive acceleration. Other frustrating thing is that you don't have choice over when you think you need to stick to a speed limit when it's dead quiet and you're the only thing on the road - which is when many motorists are caught out!
But it does mean you are looking out for the roadside speed signs constantly and chances of getting a speeding ticket are minimal.0 -
Just been on a motorway speed awareness course, the smart motorways now automatically manage cars speed to maintain safe distance between cars, and to prevent them arriving too quick at the back of blockages and queues.Valiantphil said:The powers that be, have to keep folk driving and topping up the coffers.Motorways at the moment are just a series of traps, with limits reduced for no reason. Was on M25 recently (not in roadworks areas) and it went to 40 on a gantry, then 60 at the next, then 50.Makes no sense, even worse when there was no obvious reason.Same with the 20 mph/ LTN, and school streets - just TFL topping up the bank after Covid.Treasury rumours are that road pricing will be mentioned in the October 24 budget.1 -
not sure the smart' in smart motorways is often very appropriate, especially with all the deathsHal1x said:
Just been on a motorway speed awareness course, the smart motorways now automatically manage cars speed to maintain safe distance between cars, and to prevent them arriving too quick at the back of blockages and queues.Valiantphil said:The powers that be, have to keep folk driving and topping up the coffers.Motorways at the moment are just a series of traps, with limits reduced for no reason. Was on M25 recently (not in roadworks areas) and it went to 40 on a gantry, then 60 at the next, then 50.Makes no sense, even worse when there was no obvious reason.Same with the 20 mph/ LTN, and school streets - just TFL topping up the bank after Covid.Treasury rumours are that road pricing will be mentioned in the October 24 budget.1 -
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Snap!Hal1x said:
Just been on a motorway speed awareness course, the smart motorways now automatically manage cars speed to maintain safe distance between cars, and to prevent them arriving too quick at the back of blockages and queues.Valiantphil said:The powers that be, have to keep folk driving and topping up the coffers.Motorways at the moment are just a series of traps, with limits reduced for no reason. Was on M25 recently (not in roadworks areas) and it went to 40 on a gantry, then 60 at the next, then 50.Makes no sense, even worse when there was no obvious reason.Same with the 20 mph/ LTN, and school streets - just TFL topping up the bank after Covid.Treasury rumours are that road pricing will be mentioned in the October 24 budget.
I wasn’t aware that the limits are set by sensors (or had forgotten!) and had thought it was a central team manually monitoring cameras.Success is actually not seeing any obstruction / issue.I now know better.0 -
First driver wins appeal in A20 speeding dispute
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/ck78pngdnvqyo1 -
I saw this yesterday. Could open a lot of claims, not just for points/fines but increased insurance premiums etc and even potential lost jobs due to bans.clive said:First driver wins appeal in A20 speeding dispute
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/ck78pngdnvqyo1 -
Anyone know what it actually means.
As I wrote in this thread previously, I got 3 points, fined over £700, have paid higher insurance etc.
That was some 18 months ago or so now at a guess. I was doing 49mph.
Would rather like the money back plus consequential losses and interest.
Any chance of that?0 -
I was fortunate and only had to pay £100 for speed awareness course. But, can’t see them refunding anybody. Authority only makes private business give massive compensation. When it’s the Government or Authority being asked, it never happens.0
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Where exactly was this erroneous sign ?
Going southbound out of London Its 40 all.along the stretch from 5-ways until you get to the speed cameras by Flamingo Park. Then its 50 until you get past Ruxley corner & you hit the National Speed limit signs. There are still some stand alone signs warning of flood water close to the Maccys services but I dont remember any 40 mph signs around there.0 -
Think it was somewhere between queen mary sidcup roundabout and the petrol station just before the national speed and in the dip0
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Anybody who was incorrectly fined would easily win a court case to get that money refunded. Consequential loss would be a harder job.RaplhMilne said:I was fortunate and only had to pay £100 for speed awareness course. But, can’t see them refunding anybody. Authority only makes private business give massive compensation. When it’s the Government or Authority being asked, it never happens.0 -
Generally Government prints the currency we all use. No problem for them in quantum terms to dish it out. But this is TFL apparently and it looks like they intend to appeal against the decision.RaplhMilne said:I was fortunate and only had to pay £100 for speed awareness course. But, can’t see them refunding anybody. Authority only makes private business give massive compensation. When it’s the Government or Authority being asked, it never happens.
"We remain confident that enforcement of the speed limit here was necessary, given the safety risks, and we will be resisting the appeal challenging our enforcement action."
It also says Laura Trott and 2 other Tory MPs are on to the mayors office to make sure he puts in place a process to 'notify' affected drivers. This would seem to have some way to run its course yet therefore.0 -
The government pay out billions each year for NHS mistakesRaplhMilne said:I was fortunate and only had to pay £100 for speed awareness course. But, can’t see them refunding anybody. Authority only makes private business give massive compensation. When it’s the Government or Authority being asked, it never happens.0
