Says we are the best pressing team, there is no evidence of this. The table doesn't say so, the stats don't say so, our goals conceded don't say so. It's pretty much just a lie.
He also said at the end we aren't as bad as last season. Well, I've got some news Jones mate, we are. Actually, we are worse off.
Even if he meant from when he took over, that would be incomparable due to the games played, and if anything, makes his argument worse as he had preparation time to improve on this.
We are worse off in literally every aspect of the table.
In 23/24 by this stage we had scored 30 and conceded 25, and had a 5 goal difference.
This season we have scored 18 and conceded 19 and have a -1 G/D. 12 less goals scored, huge amount, and 6 goals less conceded.
Absolute waffler.
We aren’t as good as he says we are, but without the ball we are one of the best teams in the league
In terms of pressing, if you look as PPDA (passes per defensive action) and high recoveries. Which are two measures commonly used to measure how well a team presses, we are up there on both. As well as xG conceded. If you look at the stats we are a very good team without the ball, maybe not the best but probably 2nd or 3rd best behind Birmingham and maybe Stevenage, who both perform well across those measures
We are absolutely terrible with the ball of course
Jones is a bullshitter but for him this isn’t that bad of a claim
So we aren't the best then?
"Look there isn't a better pressing team in the division than us, like, statistically, or, or otherwise"
"We pride ourselves on being outstanding out of possession"
"There were occasions, I think 1 or 2 occasions in the 90 minutes where they played through us and got a cross, half an opportunity, that never happens to us"
The best pressing team, but the stats don't prove it, and Wigan, Huddersfield, Stevenage, Birmingham and Wrexham have all conceded less than us.
If our manager says no one is better than us, I want that to be the truth. The stats don't show it is, our defensive record doesn't suggest we press the best, and when I watch the games, I don't see it either, as there's multiple occasions per game where a player isn't closed down, and the other team get a chance for it.
It may come across as though I'm being extra, but when a manager speaks, it shouldn't be bollocks. If he said "I believe we are one of the best pressers in the league, we are right up there in that department" that's completely different. To dismiss the teams that are better than us at it, while also being shit at football, is a delusional and arrogant take.
He's up against it, and he's talking waffle to cover his arse. We can all see we aren't anything special off the ball, as it’s been noted multiple times how we lack aggression and drive, so why make out like things are all dandy when they aren't.
Conceding less goals isn’t the best way to measure a good pressing side. Using the stats that analysts would use, we are one of the best teams without the ball in the league, that’s a fact. He should have said that insstead, you are right and I don’t like it either. I try and avoid his interviews and press conferences tbh, he’s not learned from his Southampton experience
Where are the stats that you refer to so we can make our own judgement on this ?
PPDA is passes per defensive action. So the opposition will on average pass the ball 9.96 times before we either tackle or intercept it.
Not sure on the exact definition of High recoveries, but would assume it is the average number of times per game we win the ball back in their third of the pitch
And then xG against is a bit more mainstream now but based on the number and quality of chances we concede, we’ve got the 3rd best defence in the league
I just want to watch my team and feel some excitement. We desperately need some wingers and a creative midfielder the type we thought Berry would be. I can't believe the way he's got us playing it's almost like he respects the teams in this league too much we never "have a go" it's so so poor I honestly can't wait for him to leave. I'd honestly rather have Jacko here as manager and Pearce as his number two
He has this underdog mentality - he’s raised the standards and expectations for defending, battling, pressing etc but not done the same for when we get on the ball.
I think he’s too stuck in his way of thinking to change that, so it’s only going to get results if we bring in players who offer everything he demands defensively while offering the quality we need in attack.
With a more balanced approach some of that should come from good coaching. He’ll no doubt argue they’re always working on it, but we need to see it on the pitch in league games. Clubs on much smaller budgets show better passing and movement than us, but Jones seems to have this mindset that it’s beyond us, or doesn’t know how to get it out of them.
A big concern of mine is the players probably don’t enjoy or believe in this style.
Says we are the best pressing team, there is no evidence of this. The table doesn't say so, the stats don't say so, our goals conceded don't say so. It's pretty much just a lie.
He also said at the end we aren't as bad as last season. Well, I've got some news Jones mate, we are. Actually, we are worse off.
Even if he meant from when he took over, that would be incomparable due to the games played, and if anything, makes his argument worse as he had preparation time to improve on this.
We are worse off in literally every aspect of the table.
In 23/24 by this stage we had scored 30 and conceded 25, and had a 5 goal difference.
This season we have scored 18 and conceded 19 and have a -1 G/D. 12 less goals scored, huge amount, and 6 goals less conceded.
Absolute waffler.
It was the pressing thing & the defensive aspect that got me. Yes, we might have kept more clean sheets than last season but the goals have dried up. And why is that ?? Because we lost the season's top goalscorer. In fact, a goalscorer who score 20+ goals in his last 3 seasons.
We can press as much as we like but when we do get the ball we have no idea how to score.
As good as May is, I think the goals drying up is more about how poor we are in possession and at creating chances, rather than having a better player to take the few chances we create.
Between the various strikers we have and players like Berry and TC we have players who could score a decent if not great number of goals.
But how can they do that when the ball is hoofed long for them to chase, we don't have much of a threat from out wide and so little creativity in the middle of midfield?
May would have scored goals despite the limited service, just as Godden has. He wouldn't thrive in this team though, he'd suffer just like our strikers currently are. They're made to look worse than they are because Jones puts so little focus on ball retention, chance creation, and signing players who have those abilities.
I'd rather sign a 2/3 wingers/creative midfielders in January over 2/3 better strikers.
Zero evidence to suggest TC could score a decent number of goals imo
Absolutely, I would say there is a huge amount of evidence that TC will not score a lot of goals based on what we have seen so far.
Says we are the best pressing team, there is no evidence of this. The table doesn't say so, the stats don't say so, our goals conceded don't say so. It's pretty much just a lie.
He also said at the end we aren't as bad as last season. Well, I've got some news Jones mate, we are. Actually, we are worse off.
Even if he meant from when he took over, that would be incomparable due to the games played, and if anything, makes his argument worse as he had preparation time to improve on this.
We are worse off in literally every aspect of the table.
In 23/24 by this stage we had scored 30 and conceded 25, and had a 5 goal difference.
This season we have scored 18 and conceded 19 and have a -1 G/D. 12 less goals scored, huge amount, and 6 goals less conceded.
Absolute waffler.
It was the pressing thing & the defensive aspect that got me. Yes, we might have kept more clean sheets than last season but the goals have dried up. And why is that ?? Because we lost the season's top goalscorer. In fact, a goalscorer who score 20+ goals in his last 3 seasons.
We can press as much as we like but when we do get the ball we have no idea how to score.
As good as May is, I think the goals drying up is more about how poor we are in possession and at creating chances, rather than having a better player to take the few chances we create.
Between the various strikers we have and players like Berry and TC we have players who could score a decent if not great number of goals.
But how can they do that when the ball is hoofed long for them to chase, we don't have much of a threat from out wide and so little creativity in the middle of midfield?
May would have scored goals despite the limited service, just as Godden has. He wouldn't thrive in this team though, he'd suffer just like our strikers currently are. They're made to look worse than they are because Jones puts so little focus on ball retention, chance creation, and signing players who have those abilities.
I'd rather sign a 2/3 wingers/creative midfielders in January over 2/3 better strikers.
Zero evidence to suggest TC could score a decent number of goals imo
Absolutely, I would say there is a huge amount of evidence that TC will not score a lot of goals based on what we have seen so far.
TC is the exact type of player we need, but better. He is unfortunately not good enough.
Says we are the best pressing team, there is no evidence of this. The table doesn't say so, the stats don't say so, our goals conceded don't say so. It's pretty much just a lie.
He also said at the end we aren't as bad as last season. Well, I've got some news Jones mate, we are. Actually, we are worse off.
Even if he meant from when he took over, that would be incomparable due to the games played, and if anything, makes his argument worse as he had preparation time to improve on this.
We are worse off in literally every aspect of the table.
In 23/24 by this stage we had scored 30 and conceded 25, and had a 5 goal difference.
This season we have scored 18 and conceded 19 and have a -1 G/D. 12 less goals scored, huge amount, and 6 goals less conceded.
Absolute waffler.
It was the pressing thing & the defensive aspect that got me. Yes, we might have kept more clean sheets than last season but the goals have dried up. And why is that ?? Because we lost the season's top goalscorer. In fact, a goalscorer who score 20+ goals in his last 3 seasons.
We can press as much as we like but when we do get the ball we have no idea how to score.
As good as May is, I think the goals drying up is more about how poor we are in possession and at creating chances, rather than having a better player to take the few chances we create.
Between the various strikers we have and players like Berry and TC we have players who could score a decent if not great number of goals.
But how can they do that when the ball is hoofed long for them to chase, we don't have much of a threat from out wide and so little creativity in the middle of midfield?
May would have scored goals despite the limited service, just as Godden has. He wouldn't thrive in this team though, he'd suffer just like our strikers currently are. They're made to look worse than they are because Jones puts so little focus on ball retention, chance creation, and signing players who have those abilities.
I'd rather sign a 2/3 wingers/creative midfielders in January over 2/3 better strikers.
Zero evidence to suggest TC could score a decent number of goals imo
Absolutely, I would say there is a huge amount of evidence that TC will not score a lot of goals based on what we have seen so far.
TC is the exact type of player we need, but better. He is unfortunately not good enough.
I'm not sure, I'm holding out hope that maybe under a different manager with a different style he might flourish a bit. Jones current methodology and tactics seem to have completely drained any enthusiasm and confidence he has.
He's never going to be on the Rak-Sakyi level but I think he could be a lot better than current evidence shows.
Says we are the best pressing team, there is no evidence of this. The table doesn't say so, the stats don't say so, our goals conceded don't say so. It's pretty much just a lie.
He also said at the end we aren't as bad as last season. Well, I've got some news Jones mate, we are. Actually, we are worse off.
Even if he meant from when he took over, that would be incomparable due to the games played, and if anything, makes his argument worse as he had preparation time to improve on this.
We are worse off in literally every aspect of the table.
In 23/24 by this stage we had scored 30 and conceded 25, and had a 5 goal difference.
This season we have scored 18 and conceded 19 and have a -1 G/D. 12 less goals scored, huge amount, and 6 goals less conceded.
Absolute waffler.
It was the pressing thing & the defensive aspect that got me. Yes, we might have kept more clean sheets than last season but the goals have dried up. And why is that ?? Because we lost the season's top goalscorer. In fact, a goalscorer who score 20+ goals in his last 3 seasons.
We can press as much as we like but when we do get the ball we have no idea how to score.
As good as May is, I think the goals drying up is more about how poor we are in possession and at creating chances, rather than having a better player to take the few chances we create.
Between the various strikers we have and players like Berry and TC we have players who could score a decent if not great number of goals.
But how can they do that when the ball is hoofed long for them to chase, we don't have much of a threat from out wide and so little creativity in the middle of midfield?
May would have scored goals despite the limited service, just as Godden has. He wouldn't thrive in this team though, he'd suffer just like our strikers currently are. They're made to look worse than they are because Jones puts so little focus on ball retention, chance creation, and signing players who have those abilities.
I'd rather sign a 2/3 wingers/creative midfielders in January over 2/3 better strikers.
Zero evidence to suggest TC could score a decent number of goals imo
Absolutely, I would say there is a huge amount of evidence that TC will not score a lot of goals based on what we have seen so far.
TC is the exact type of player we need, but better. He is unfortunately not good enough.
I'm not sure, I'm holding out hope that maybe under a different manager with a different style he might flourish a bit. Jones current methodology and tactics seem to have completely drained any enthusiasm and confidence he has.
He's never going to be on the Rak-Sakyi level but I think he could be a lot better than current evidence shows.
TC should be a squad option in a group of wingers, a player who will hopefully develop over time.
In a genuine top 6 team playing decent football I could see him contributing with a few goals and assists over a season, just as players like Reeves did for Bowyer or Wagstaff and Green did for Powell.
You don’t need everyone to be Championship quality to get promoted. I wasn’t claiming he’d get double figures or be a regular, but he has enough about him to be cover, an option off the bench and occasionally get a longer run in the team.
I just want to watch my team and feel some excitement. We desperately need some wingers and a creative midfielder the type we thought Berry would be. I can't believe the way he's got us playing it's almost like he respects the teams in this league too much we never "have a go" it's so so poor I honestly can't wait for him to leave. I'd honestly rather have Jacko here as manager and Pearce as his number two
He has this underdog mentality - he’s raised the standards and expectations for defending, battling, pressing etc but not done the same for when we get on the ball.
I think he’s too stuck in his way of thinking to change that, so it’s only going to get results if we bring in players who offer everything he demands defensively while offering the quality we need in attack.
With a more balanced approach some of that should come from good coaching. He’ll no doubt argue they’re always working on it, but we need to see it on the pitch in league games. Clubs on much smaller budgets show better passing and movement than us, but Jones seems to have this mindset that it’s beyond us, or doesn’t know how to get it out of them.
A big concern of mine is the players probably don’t enjoy or believe in this style.
A very good post.
I just can't understand the lack of imagination we have going forward. The key word you use is balance something which we haven't got. NJ committed wholeheartedly to the 3-5-2 formation which left us staggeringly short of natural wingers and he banked massively on the quantity over quality approach with our centre forwards which just hasn't worked.
His stubbornness will get him sacked. We don't shoot, we don't cross it's so disappointing
I just want to watch my team and feel some excitement. We desperately need some wingers and a creative midfielder the type we thought Berry would be. I can't believe the way he's got us playing it's almost like he respects the teams in this league too much we never "have a go" it's so so poor I honestly can't wait for him to leave. I'd honestly rather have Jacko here as manager and Pearce as his number two
He has this underdog mentality - he’s raised the standards and expectations for defending, battling, pressing etc but not done the same for when we get on the ball.
I think he’s too stuck in his way of thinking to change that, so it’s only going to get results if we bring in players who offer everything he demands defensively while offering the quality we need in attack.
With a more balanced approach some of that should come from good coaching. He’ll no doubt argue they’re always working on it, but we need to see it on the pitch in league games. Clubs on much smaller budgets show better passing and movement than us, but Jones seems to have this mindset that it’s beyond us, or doesn’t know how to get it out of them.
A big concern of mine is the players probably don’t enjoy or believe in this style.
A very good post.
I just can't understand the lack of imagination we have going forward. The key word you use is balance something which we haven't got. NJ committed wholeheartedly to the 3-5-2 formation which left us staggeringly short of natural wingers and he banked massively on the quantity over quality approach with our centre forwards which just hasn't worked.
His stubbornness will get him sacked. We don't shoot, we don't cross it's so disappointing
3-5-2, 4-4-2 box or diamond with a lot of long balls feels so flawed to me - how can the FB/WBs get up the pitch and into crossing positions when we go so direct? It means we have to win the ball, hold it up and keep possession while they get into those areas. Even when we do the first two we’re terrible at keeping the ball and lose it too easily with poor touches, poor decisions and a lack of movement.
Says we are the best pressing team, there is no evidence of this. The table doesn't say so, the stats don't say so, our goals conceded don't say so. It's pretty much just a lie.
He also said at the end we aren't as bad as last season. Well, I've got some news Jones mate, we are. Actually, we are worse off.
Even if he meant from when he took over, that would be incomparable due to the games played, and if anything, makes his argument worse as he had preparation time to improve on this.
We are worse off in literally every aspect of the table.
In 23/24 by this stage we had scored 30 and conceded 25, and had a 5 goal difference.
This season we have scored 18 and conceded 19 and have a -1 G/D. 12 less goals scored, huge amount, and 6 goals less conceded.
Absolute waffler.
We aren’t as good as he says we are, but without the ball we are one of the best teams in the league
In terms of pressing, if you look as PPDA (passes per defensive action) and high recoveries. Which are two measures commonly used to measure how well a team presses, we are up there on both. As well as xG conceded. If you look at the stats we are a very good team without the ball, maybe not the best but probably 2nd or 3rd best behind Birmingham and maybe Stevenage, who both perform well across those measures
We are absolutely terrible with the ball of course
Jones is a bullshitter but for him this isn’t that bad of a claim
So we aren't the best then?
"Look there isn't a better pressing team in the division than us, like, statistically, or, or otherwise"
"We pride ourselves on being outstanding out of possession"
"There were occasions, I think 1 or 2 occasions in the 90 minutes where they played through us and got a cross, half an opportunity, that never happens to us"
The best pressing team, but the stats don't prove it, and Wigan, Huddersfield, Stevenage, Birmingham and Wrexham have all conceded less than us.
If our manager says no one is better than us, I want that to be the truth. The stats don't show it is, our defensive record doesn't suggest we press the best, and when I watch the games, I don't see it either, as there's multiple occasions per game where a player isn't closed down, and the other team get a chance for it.
It may come across as though I'm being extra, but when a manager speaks, it shouldn't be bollocks. If he said "I believe we are one of the best pressers in the league, we are right up there in that department" that's completely different. To dismiss the teams that are better than us at it, while also being shit at football, is a delusional and arrogant take.
He's up against it, and he's talking waffle to cover his arse. We can all see we aren't anything special off the ball, as it’s been noted multiple times how we lack aggression and drive, so why make out like things are all dandy when they aren't.
Conceding less goals isn’t the best way to measure a good pressing side. Using the stats that analysts would use, we are one of the best teams without the ball in the league, that’s a fact. He should have said that insstead, you are right and I don’t like it either. I try and avoid his interviews and press conferences tbh, he’s not learned from his Southampton experience
Where are the stats that you refer to so we can make our own judgement on this ?
PPDA is passes per defensive action. So the opposition will on average pass the ball 9.96 times before we either tackle or intercept it.
Not sure on the exact definition of High recoveries, but would assume it is the average number of times per game we win the ball back in their third of the pitch
And then xG against is a bit more mainstream now but based on the number and quality of chances we concede, we’ve got the 3rd best defence in the league
Says we are the best pressing team, there is no evidence of this. The table doesn't say so, the stats don't say so, our goals conceded don't say so. It's pretty much just a lie.
He also said at the end we aren't as bad as last season. Well, I've got some news Jones mate, we are. Actually, we are worse off.
Even if he meant from when he took over, that would be incomparable due to the games played, and if anything, makes his argument worse as he had preparation time to improve on this.
We are worse off in literally every aspect of the table.
In 23/24 by this stage we had scored 30 and conceded 25, and had a 5 goal difference.
This season we have scored 18 and conceded 19 and have a -1 G/D. 12 less goals scored, huge amount, and 6 goals less conceded.
Absolute waffler.
We aren’t as good as he says we are, but without the ball we are one of the best teams in the league
In terms of pressing, if you look as PPDA (passes per defensive action) and high recoveries. Which are two measures commonly used to measure how well a team presses, we are up there on both. As well as xG conceded. If you look at the stats we are a very good team without the ball, maybe not the best but probably 2nd or 3rd best behind Birmingham and maybe Stevenage, who both perform well across those measures
We are absolutely terrible with the ball of course
Jones is a bullshitter but for him this isn’t that bad of a claim
So we aren't the best then?
"Look there isn't a better pressing team in the division than us, like, statistically, or, or otherwise"
"We pride ourselves on being outstanding out of possession"
"There were occasions, I think 1 or 2 occasions in the 90 minutes where they played through us and got a cross, half an opportunity, that never happens to us"
The best pressing team, but the stats don't prove it, and Wigan, Huddersfield, Stevenage, Birmingham and Wrexham have all conceded less than us.
If our manager says no one is better than us, I want that to be the truth. The stats don't show it is, our defensive record doesn't suggest we press the best, and when I watch the games, I don't see it either, as there's multiple occasions per game where a player isn't closed down, and the other team get a chance for it.
It may come across as though I'm being extra, but when a manager speaks, it shouldn't be bollocks. If he said "I believe we are one of the best pressers in the league, we are right up there in that department" that's completely different. To dismiss the teams that are better than us at it, while also being shit at football, is a delusional and arrogant take.
He's up against it, and he's talking waffle to cover his arse. We can all see we aren't anything special off the ball, as it’s been noted multiple times how we lack aggression and drive, so why make out like things are all dandy when they aren't.
Conceding less goals isn’t the best way to measure a good pressing side. Using the stats that analysts would use, we are one of the best teams without the ball in the league, that’s a fact. He should have said that insstead, you are right and I don’t like it either. I try and avoid his interviews and press conferences tbh, he’s not learned from his Southampton experience
Where are the stats that you refer to so we can make our own judgement on this ?
PPDA is passes per defensive action. So the opposition will on average pass the ball 9.96 times before we either tackle or intercept it.
Not sure on the exact definition of High recoveries, but would assume it is the average number of times per game we win the ball back in their third of the pitch
And then xG against is a bit more mainstream now but based on the number and quality of chances we concede, we’ve got the 3rd best defence in the league
Cheers for posting this, as more stats are being recorded, I have become more interested.
I would like to see how our offensive stats compare to those teams that are better than us defensively or around the same level. As it does feel we have completely surrendered any creativity for the sake of a team who just defends looking at those stats and our general playstyle.
Getting a bit sick of the "that's not us" cliche too. Yes it is. It's exactly us. It is de facto us. Do you mean, it isn't happening how I want it to happen. Do the players even know what that is? I don't
Says we are the best pressing team, there is no evidence of this. The table doesn't say so, the stats don't say so, our goals conceded don't say so. It's pretty much just a lie.
He also said at the end we aren't as bad as last season. Well, I've got some news Jones mate, we are. Actually, we are worse off.
Even if he meant from when he took over, that would be incomparable due to the games played, and if anything, makes his argument worse as he had preparation time to improve on this.
We are worse off in literally every aspect of the table.
In 23/24 by this stage we had scored 30 and conceded 25, and had a 5 goal difference.
This season we have scored 18 and conceded 19 and have a -1 G/D. 12 less goals scored, huge amount, and 6 goals less conceded.
Absolute waffler.
We aren’t as good as he says we are, but without the ball we are one of the best teams in the league
In terms of pressing, if you look as PPDA (passes per defensive action) and high recoveries. Which are two measures commonly used to measure how well a team presses, we are up there on both. As well as xG conceded. If you look at the stats we are a very good team without the ball, maybe not the best but probably 2nd or 3rd best behind Birmingham and maybe Stevenage, who both perform well across those measures
We are absolutely terrible with the ball of course
Jones is a bullshitter but for him this isn’t that bad of a claim
So we aren't the best then?
"Look there isn't a better pressing team in the division than us, like, statistically, or, or otherwise"
"We pride ourselves on being outstanding out of possession"
"There were occasions, I think 1 or 2 occasions in the 90 minutes where they played through us and got a cross, half an opportunity, that never happens to us"
The best pressing team, but the stats don't prove it, and Wigan, Huddersfield, Stevenage, Birmingham and Wrexham have all conceded less than us.
If our manager says no one is better than us, I want that to be the truth. The stats don't show it is, our defensive record doesn't suggest we press the best, and when I watch the games, I don't see it either, as there's multiple occasions per game where a player isn't closed down, and the other team get a chance for it.
It may come across as though I'm being extra, but when a manager speaks, it shouldn't be bollocks. If he said "I believe we are one of the best pressers in the league, we are right up there in that department" that's completely different. To dismiss the teams that are better than us at it, while also being shit at football, is a delusional and arrogant take.
He's up against it, and he's talking waffle to cover his arse. We can all see we aren't anything special off the ball, as it’s been noted multiple times how we lack aggression and drive, so why make out like things are all dandy when they aren't.
Conceding less goals isn’t the best way to measure a good pressing side. Using the stats that analysts would use, we are one of the best teams without the ball in the league, that’s a fact. He should have said that insstead, you are right and I don’t like it either. I try and avoid his interviews and press conferences tbh, he’s not learned from his Southampton experience
Where are the stats that you refer to so we can make our own judgement on this ?
PPDA is passes per defensive action. So the opposition will on average pass the ball 9.96 times before we either tackle or intercept it.
Not sure on the exact definition of High recoveries, but would assume it is the average number of times per game we win the ball back in their third of the pitch
And then xG against is a bit more mainstream now but based on the number and quality of chances we concede, we’ve got the 3rd best defence in the league
And yet we are only 4 points above the relegation zone so I'm going out on a limb to say it is meaningless.
I just want to watch my team and feel some excitement. We desperately need some wingers and a creative midfielder the type we thought Berry would be. I can't believe the way he's got us playing it's almost like he respects the teams in this league too much we never "have a go" it's so so poor I honestly can't wait for him to leave. I'd honestly rather have Jacko here as manager and Pearce as his number two
He has this underdog mentality - he’s raised the standards and expectations for defending, battling, pressing etc but not done the same for when we get on the ball.
I think he’s too stuck in his way of thinking to change that, so it’s only going to get results if we bring in players who offer everything he demands defensively while offering the quality we need in attack.
With a more balanced approach some of that should come from good coaching. He’ll no doubt argue they’re always working on it, but we need to see it on the pitch in league games. Clubs on much smaller budgets show better passing and movement than us, but Jones seems to have this mindset that it’s beyond us, or doesn’t know how to get it out of them.
A big concern of mine is the players probably don’t enjoy or believe in this style.
A very good post.
I just can't understand the lack of imagination we have going forward. The key word you use is balance something which we haven't got. NJ committed wholeheartedly to the 3-5-2 formation which left us staggeringly short of natural wingers and he banked massively on the quantity over quality approach with our centre forwards which just hasn't worked.
His stubbornness will get him sacked. We don't shoot, we don't cross it's so disappointing
3-5-2, 4-4-2 box or diamond with a lot of long balls feels so flawed to me - how can the FB/WBs get up the pitch and into crossing positions when we go so direct? It means we have to win the ball, hold it up and keep possession while they get into those areas. Even when we do the first two we’re terrible at keeping the ball and lose it too easily with poor touches, poor decisions and a lack of movement.
When our wing backs have got into those positions the quality of delivery also hasn't been great for most of the time
Says we are the best pressing team, there is no evidence of this. The table doesn't say so, the stats don't say so, our goals conceded don't say so. It's pretty much just a lie.
He also said at the end we aren't as bad as last season. Well, I've got some news Jones mate, we are. Actually, we are worse off.
Even if he meant from when he took over, that would be incomparable due to the games played, and if anything, makes his argument worse as he had preparation time to improve on this.
We are worse off in literally every aspect of the table.
In 23/24 by this stage we had scored 30 and conceded 25, and had a 5 goal difference.
This season we have scored 18 and conceded 19 and have a -1 G/D. 12 less goals scored, huge amount, and 6 goals less conceded.
Absolute waffler.
We aren’t as good as he says we are, but without the ball we are one of the best teams in the league
In terms of pressing, if you look as PPDA (passes per defensive action) and high recoveries. Which are two measures commonly used to measure how well a team presses, we are up there on both. As well as xG conceded. If you look at the stats we are a very good team without the ball, maybe not the best but probably 2nd or 3rd best behind Birmingham and maybe Stevenage, who both perform well across those measures
We are absolutely terrible with the ball of course
Jones is a bullshitter but for him this isn’t that bad of a claim
So we aren't the best then?
"Look there isn't a better pressing team in the division than us, like, statistically, or, or otherwise"
"We pride ourselves on being outstanding out of possession"
"There were occasions, I think 1 or 2 occasions in the 90 minutes where they played through us and got a cross, half an opportunity, that never happens to us"
The best pressing team, but the stats don't prove it, and Wigan, Huddersfield, Stevenage, Birmingham and Wrexham have all conceded less than us.
If our manager says no one is better than us, I want that to be the truth. The stats don't show it is, our defensive record doesn't suggest we press the best, and when I watch the games, I don't see it either, as there's multiple occasions per game where a player isn't closed down, and the other team get a chance for it.
It may come across as though I'm being extra, but when a manager speaks, it shouldn't be bollocks. If he said "I believe we are one of the best pressers in the league, we are right up there in that department" that's completely different. To dismiss the teams that are better than us at it, while also being shit at football, is a delusional and arrogant take.
He's up against it, and he's talking waffle to cover his arse. We can all see we aren't anything special off the ball, as it’s been noted multiple times how we lack aggression and drive, so why make out like things are all dandy when they aren't.
Conceding less goals isn’t the best way to measure a good pressing side. Using the stats that analysts would use, we are one of the best teams without the ball in the league, that’s a fact. He should have said that insstead, you are right and I don’t like it either. I try and avoid his interviews and press conferences tbh, he’s not learned from his Southampton experience
Where are the stats that you refer to so we can make our own judgement on this ?
PPDA is passes per defensive action. So the opposition will on average pass the ball 9.96 times before we either tackle or intercept it.
Not sure on the exact definition of High recoveries, but would assume it is the average number of times per game we win the ball back in their third of the pitch
And then xG against is a bit more mainstream now but based on the number and quality of chances we concede, we’ve got the 3rd best defence in the league
Cheers for posting this, as more stats are being recorded, I have become more interested.
I would like to see how our offensive stats compare to those teams that are better than us defensively or around the same level. As it does feel we have completely surrendered any creativity for the sake of a team who just defends looking at those stats and our general playstyle.
Predictably we come out terribly when looking at creating chances from open play.
I think Jones obviously saw last season where our defence was an absolute disaster, and has possibly over-compensated in preparation for this season. I think sorting the defence out was definitely the first priority so he was right to address that first, but it has come at the cost of our ability with the ball so we maybe over-did it.
His hope was probably that over time we’d get better on the ball or that there was enough quality in our attack to score enough goals, but that hasn’t happened
Says we are the best pressing team, there is no evidence of this. The table doesn't say so, the stats don't say so, our goals conceded don't say so. It's pretty much just a lie.
He also said at the end we aren't as bad as last season. Well, I've got some news Jones mate, we are. Actually, we are worse off.
Even if he meant from when he took over, that would be incomparable due to the games played, and if anything, makes his argument worse as he had preparation time to improve on this.
We are worse off in literally every aspect of the table.
In 23/24 by this stage we had scored 30 and conceded 25, and had a 5 goal difference.
This season we have scored 18 and conceded 19 and have a -1 G/D. 12 less goals scored, huge amount, and 6 goals less conceded.
The only stat that counts is the league table, win games and you will be near the top, lose games and you go in the opposite direction
xg is a load of bollocks which enables pundits to waffle on about things that were expected to happen or might have happened thus padding out the program
The only stat that counts is the league table, win games and you will be near the top, lose games and you go in the opposite direction
xg is a load of bollocks which enables pundits to waffle on about things that were expected to happen or might have happened thus padding out the program
Totally agree.
It’s all a load of old bollocks, get points on the board and we will be happy.
Football style is unimportant in many ways. Results are what we all want. Where style of play becomes more of a factor is when you are not getting the results. I would say it is pretty obvious this season that we are tighter defensively but still prone to poor lapses so we are never safe. In midfield we compete but are weak at creating and indeed scoring. Up front, we don't seem to give defenders a torrid time of it.
What I have seen in my many years of watching football is how easily things can turn, one way or the other. Look at Man City. A much higher level, but when you apply logic, they win titles because of their strength in depth. But they have been poor lately with a couple of injuries. It feels counter intuitive. It seems to me when watching us, we don't really seem to know the positions and runs our own players make. Other teams, even lowly ones can construct what I would call training ground moves whereas we are so messy and disjointed.
I think a massive problem is chance creation and then taking those chances. If we were better at it, it would take pressure off us defensively and would transform us. This isn't just the responsibility of the strikers as I feel there are not enough goal scorers in the side. I think if you do your homework on us, you know the threats you have to focus on and they are few enough to make that task easier. Change that and it has a knock on effect on everybody. But some players score goals and some don't. We have had too many of the latter category for quite a while now.
You can overcome this by not letting them in and this is probably a short term way of us becoming more consistent. But when opponents blast them in from 30 yards, which has happened too many times this season, you are in trouble and if you can't do the same you lose or draw the game.
Says we are the best pressing team, there is no evidence of this. The table doesn't say so, the stats don't say so, our goals conceded don't say so. It's pretty much just a lie.
He also said at the end we aren't as bad as last season. Well, I've got some news Jones mate, we are. Actually, we are worse off.
Even if he meant from when he took over, that would be incomparable due to the games played, and if anything, makes his argument worse as he had preparation time to improve on this.
We are worse off in literally every aspect of the table.
In 23/24 by this stage we had scored 30 and conceded 25, and had a 5 goal difference.
This season we have scored 18 and conceded 19 and have a -1 G/D. 12 less goals scored, huge amount, and 6 goals less conceded.
Absolute waffler.
It was the pressing thing & the defensive aspect that got me. Yes, we might have kept more clean sheets than last season but the goals have dried up. And why is that ?? Because we lost the season's top goalscorer. In fact, a goalscorer who score 20+ goals in his last 3 seasons.
We can press as much as we like but when we do get the ball we have no idea how to score.
As good as May is, I think the goals drying up is more about how poor we are in possession and at creating chances, rather than having a better player to take the few chances we create.
Between the various strikers we have and players like Berry and TC we have players who could score a decent if not great number of goals.
But how can they do that when the ball is hoofed long for them to chase, we don't have much of a threat from out wide and so little creativity in the middle of midfield?
May would have scored goals despite the limited service, just as Godden has. He wouldn't thrive in this team though, he'd suffer just like our strikers currently are. They're made to look worse than they are because Jones puts so little focus on ball retention, chance creation, and signing players who have those abilities.
I'd rather sign a 2/3 wingers/creative midfielders in January over 2/3 better strikers.
Zero evidence to suggest TC could score a decent number of goals imo
Absolutely, I would say there is a huge amount of evidence that TC will not score a lot of goals based on what we have seen so far.
He has that in common with everyone else in the squad then , bar Godden
Well at least he got asked some challenging questions for a change.
But the most important questions still haven't been asked, "how do you propose to solve the lack of creativity in the team" or "which players do you regard as being providers for the forward line ".
Or a question along those lines, so that we can all try to understand what his thinking is.
It's not TC because he was earmarked as being a forward. It's not Berry because he rarely plays him. It's not TT because he didn't play him at all until recently. It's not Docherty, not Coventry. It's not wingbacks, or at least, not our wingbacks. So other than exploiting the odd defensive error, the odd handball in the area/penalty, where does he think the goals are going to magically come from?
Well at least he got asked some challenging questions for a change.
But the most important questions still haven't been asked, "how do you propose to solve the lack of creativity in the team" or "which players do you regard as being providers for the forward line ".
Or a question along those lines, so that we can all try to understand what his thinking is.
It's not TC because he was earmarked as being a forward. It's not Berry because he rarely plays him. It's not TT because he didn't play him at all until recently. It's not Docherty, not Coventry. It's not wingbacks, or at least, not our wingbacks. So other than exploiting the odd defensive error, the odd handball in the area/penalty, where does he think the goals are going to magically come from?
This is the frustrating bit because IN THEORY a lot of what he has done (tried to do) makes quite a lot of sense. A solid defence is a good start to build on (shame ours fell to bits as soon as L. Jones got knocked). High energy and a press in midfield is not inherently bad and works well IF you then create something at the end of it (shame we have as much natural creativity as ChatGPT).
We started the season with 2 thirds of a good plan. But the final third never ever looked convincing and now the other two fell to bits too.
Well at least he got asked some challenging questions for a change.
But the most important questions still haven't been asked, "how do you propose to solve the lack of creativity in the team" or "which players do you regard as being providers for the forward line ".
Or a question along those lines, so that we can all try to understand what his thinking is.
It's not TC because he was earmarked as being a forward. It's not Berry because he rarely plays him. It's not TT because he didn't play him at all until recently. It's not Docherty, not Coventry. It's not wingbacks, or at least, not our wingbacks. So other than exploiting the odd defensive error, the odd handball in the area/penalty, where does he think the goals are going to magically come from?
This is the frustrating bit because IN THEORY a lot of what he has done (tried to do) makes quite a lot of sense. A solid defence is a good start to build on (shame ours fell to bits as soon as L. Jones got knocked). High energy and a press in midfield is not inherently bad and works well IF you then create something at the end of it (shame we have as much natural creativity as ChatGPT).
We started the season with 2 thirds of a good plan. But the final third never ever looked convincing and now the other two fell to bits too.
That was inevitable and most could see that we couldn't continue scraping 1 nils whilst creating next to nothing. We hung our hats on his assertion that we were a work in progress and the the football would improve, but as we know, it hasn't, and it couldn't, because we are lacking that critical link, the playmaker and creator that most teams in this division have, Humphrey's being a great example.
Says we are the best pressing team, there is no evidence of this. The table doesn't say so, the stats don't say so, our goals conceded don't say so. It's pretty much just a lie.
He also said at the end we aren't as bad as last season. Well, I've got some news Jones mate, we are. Actually, we are worse off.
Even if he meant from when he took over, that would be incomparable due to the games played, and if anything, makes his argument worse as he had preparation time to improve on this.
We are worse off in literally every aspect of the table.
In 23/24 by this stage we had scored 30 and conceded 25, and had a 5 goal difference.
This season we have scored 18 and conceded 19 and have a -1 G/D. 12 less goals scored, huge amount, and 6 goals less conceded.
Absolute waffler.
We aren’t as good as he says we are, but without the ball we are one of the best teams in the league
In terms of pressing, if you look as PPDA (passes per defensive action) and high recoveries. Which are two measures commonly used to measure how well a team presses, we are up there on both. As well as xG conceded. If you look at the stats we are a very good team without the ball, maybe not the best but probably 2nd or 3rd best behind Birmingham and maybe Stevenage, who both perform well across those measures
We are absolutely terrible with the ball of course
Jones is a bullshitter but for him this isn’t that bad of a claim
So we aren't the best then?
"Look there isn't a better pressing team in the division than us, like, statistically, or, or otherwise"
"We pride ourselves on being outstanding out of possession"
"There were occasions, I think 1 or 2 occasions in the 90 minutes where they played through us and got a cross, half an opportunity, that never happens to us"
The best pressing team, but the stats don't prove it, and Wigan, Huddersfield, Stevenage, Birmingham and Wrexham have all conceded less than us.
If our manager says no one is better than us, I want that to be the truth. The stats don't show it is, our defensive record doesn't suggest we press the best, and when I watch the games, I don't see it either, as there's multiple occasions per game where a player isn't closed down, and the other team get a chance for it.
It may come across as though I'm being extra, but when a manager speaks, it shouldn't be bollocks. If he said "I believe we are one of the best pressers in the league, we are right up there in that department" that's completely different. To dismiss the teams that are better than us at it, while also being shit at football, is a delusional and arrogant take.
He's up against it, and he's talking waffle to cover his arse. We can all see we aren't anything special off the ball, as it’s been noted multiple times how we lack aggression and drive, so why make out like things are all dandy when they aren't.
Conceding less goals isn’t the best way to measure a good pressing side. Using the stats that analysts would use, we are one of the best teams without the ball in the league, that’s a fact. He should have said that insstead, you are right and I don’t like it either. I try and avoid his interviews and press conferences tbh, he’s not learned from his Southampton experience
Where are the stats that you refer to so we can make our own judgement on this ?
PPDA is passes per defensive action. So the opposition will on average pass the ball 9.96 times before we either tackle or intercept it.
Not sure on the exact definition of High recoveries, but would assume it is the average number of times per game we win the ball back in their third of the pitch
And then xG against is a bit more mainstream now but based on the number and quality of chances we concede, we’ve got the 3rd best defence in the league
Thanks for posting the stats.
Interesting and no surprise Birmingham look to be better
Football fans in general want managers out if you have 10 s*** results. Whilst by no means am I confident we'll be in the play-offs come the end of the season, supporters need to look at their posts after the Crawley defeat. Jones needs time.
Comments
And then xG against is a bit more mainstream now but based on the number and quality of chances we concede, we’ve got the 3rd best defence in the league
With a more balanced approach some of that should come from good coaching. He’ll no doubt argue they’re always working on it, but we need to see it on the pitch in league games. Clubs on much smaller budgets show better passing and movement than us, but Jones seems to have this mindset that it’s beyond us, or doesn’t know how to get it out of them.
A big concern of mine is the players probably don’t enjoy or believe in this style.
He's never going to be on the Rak-Sakyi level but I think he could be a lot better than current evidence shows.
In a genuine top 6 team playing decent football I could see him contributing with a few goals and assists over a season, just as players like Reeves did for Bowyer or Wagstaff and Green did for Powell.
You don’t need everyone to be Championship quality to get promoted. I wasn’t claiming he’d get double figures or be a regular, but he has enough about him to be cover, an option off the bench and occasionally get a longer run in the team.
I just can't understand the lack of imagination we have going forward. The key word you use is balance something which we haven't got. NJ committed wholeheartedly to the 3-5-2 formation which left us staggeringly short of natural wingers and he banked massively on the quantity over quality approach with our centre forwards which just hasn't worked.
His stubbornness will get him sacked. We don't shoot, we don't cross it's so disappointing
I would like to see how our offensive stats compare to those teams that are better than us defensively or around the same level. As it does feel we have completely surrendered any creativity for the sake of a team who just defends looking at those stats and our general playstyle.
Yes it is. It's exactly us. It is de facto us.
Do you mean, it isn't happening how I want it to happen.
Do the players even know what that is? I don't
It's only when that round thing, called a football, is added to the equation, that it all turns to sh*t.
xg is a load of bollocks which enables pundits to waffle on about things that were expected to happen or might have happened thus padding out the program
What I have seen in my many years of watching football is how easily things can turn, one way or the other. Look at Man City. A much higher level, but when you apply logic, they win titles because of their strength in depth. But they have been poor lately with a couple of injuries. It feels counter intuitive. It seems to me when watching us, we don't really seem to know the positions and runs our own players make. Other teams, even lowly ones can construct what I would call training ground moves whereas we are so messy and disjointed.
I think a massive problem is chance creation and then taking those chances. If we were better at it, it would take pressure off us defensively and would transform us. This isn't just the responsibility of the strikers as I feel there are not enough goal scorers in the side. I think if you do your homework on us, you know the threats you have to focus on and they are few enough to make that task easier. Change that and it has a knock on effect on everybody. But some players score goals and some don't. We have had too many of the latter category for quite a while now.
You can overcome this by not letting them in and this is probably a short term way of us becoming more consistent. But when opponents blast them in from 30 yards, which has happened too many times this season, you are in trouble and if you can't do the same you lose or draw the game.
But the most important questions still haven't been asked, "how do you propose to solve the lack of creativity in the team" or "which players do you regard as being providers for the forward line ".
Or a question along those lines, so that we can all try to understand what his thinking is.
It's not TC because he was earmarked as being a forward. It's not Berry because he rarely plays him. It's not TT because he didn't play him at all until recently. It's not Docherty, not Coventry. It's not wingbacks, or at least, not our wingbacks.
So other than exploiting the odd defensive error, the odd handball in the area/penalty, where does he think the goals are going to magically come from?
We started the season with 2 thirds of a good plan. But the final third never ever looked convincing and now the other two fell to bits too.
We hung our hats on his assertion that we were a work in progress and the the football would improve, but as we know, it hasn't, and it couldn't, because we are lacking that critical link, the playmaker and creator that most teams in this division have, Humphrey's being a great example.
Ultimately the table doesn’t lie though !
Whilst by no means am I confident we'll be in the play-offs come the end of the season, supporters need to look at their posts after the Crawley defeat.
Jones needs time.