The thread was about a man, with stubble in a dress using the womens toilets. I don’t give a shiny shit why they feel entitled to do so and most women I have had any type of discussion with do not like this behaviour. We've had two blokes sacked for using the women's toilets at our various sites as, rightly, those toilets are a safe space for a single sex. The women's toilets at my yard I've been told are a lot nicer than the blokes and fair play, I've seen the state some of the creatures I work with seem to relish leaving the blokes shitters in.
The thread was not about floor to ceiling, specifically constructed unisex/gender fluid/whatever toilets it was about our thoughts on men using the women's toilets and thats a absolute hard no for me. Next time I'm in the pub I'll ask all the girls in there what they think as well. I have a suspicion but I'll share the answers when I hear them.
Which loo should a transwoman use?
Transwoman, as in a biological male can use the mens toilets or the unisex disabled toilets.@Jessie and a few other female posters, the ones who are affected by this, has said similar.
Its nonsense that those of us who aren't affected are piping up saying its fine for a transwoman/biological male to use the women's toilets because they have cubicles.
And for what it’s worth, the western world has never been a safer place for people to be themselves. And I'm all for that, why wouldn't I be. I cant pretend to be a feminist or some bullshit like that as I'm not a female but I 100% respect the rights of women to have a safe and private place like they have for years that is exclusively for women
What about a really “womanly-looking” transwoman? Someone you could easily believe was born female? Not someone with stubble and wearing dress.
Are you not putting them at risk of sexual assault by making them use the men’s room?
The thread was about a man, with stubble in a dress using the womens toilets. I don’t give a shiny shit why they feel entitled to do so and most women I have had any type of discussion with do not like this behaviour. We've had two blokes sacked for using the women's toilets at our various sites as, rightly, those toilets are a safe space for a single sex. The women's toilets at my yard I've been told are a lot nicer than the blokes and fair play, I've seen the state some of the creatures I work with seem to relish leaving the blokes shitters in.
The thread was not about floor to ceiling, specifically constructed unisex/gender fluid/whatever toilets it was about our thoughts on men using the women's toilets and thats a absolute hard no for me. Next time I'm in the pub I'll ask all the girls in there what they think as well. I have a suspicion but I'll share the answers when I hear them.
Which loo should a transwoman use?
Transwoman, as in a biological male can use the mens toilets or the unisex disabled toilets. @Jessie and a few other female posters, the ones who are affected by this, has said similar.
Its nonsense that those of us who aren't affected are piping up saying its fine for a transwoman/biological male to use the women's toilets because they have cubicles.
And for what its worth, the western world has never been a safer place for people to be themselves. And I'm all for that, why wouldn't I be. I cant pretend to be a feminist or some bullshit like that as I'm not a female but I 100% respect the rights of women to have a safe and private place like they have for years that is exclusively for women
Can you see any issues at all in this? Set aside who - and how - this is policed, and consider whether the three people pictured below would feel safe if they're in a nightclub that has no "unisex disabled toilets" and they were prevented from using the women's loos. Does limiting these people to using men's loos in a crowded, busy nightclub late at night present any risk issues at all?
I take it they are all biological males who have made the not inconsequential life choice to live as females? I'd expect them to respect women's, biological females space and not use their toilets.
Am I in the minority here in thinking this is insane?
THE THREAD TITLE IS BLOKES USING THE LADIES LOO. MY COMMENTS ARE ABOUT BLOKES USING THE LADIES LOO/UNISEX TOILETS (not including single cubicles on planes and trains etc which are clearly pretty safe for women).
How do you propose to check who’s a man and who’s not a man beforehand? We going to start employing toilet guards to stand at the door and fondle everyone’s private parts to find out what bathroom they SHOULD use?
No, its a system that has served us fairly well over the years. Penis = use the gents
That’s not an answer though. How do you propose to enforce it?
Nothing, at this current time, is stopping people from walking into a ladies room at all, whether they are dressed up as a man, woman, or an alien from Mars.
Thats among one of the strangest questions I've ever been asked
Decency enforces it, I don't expect toilet police I expect adults to respect females space
It’s funny you’re arguing for the same system “that has served us well over the years” ie no enforcement of any actual rules but also that something should somehow be changed.
When confronted with the possible/probable reality of what such a change would look like in practice though…
Maybe you’re right and we do just keep the honour system. It’s worked pretty well for a long time I agree.
The thread was about a man, with stubble in a dress using the womens toilets. I don’t give a shiny shit why they feel entitled to do so and most women I have had any type of discussion with do not like this behaviour. We've had two blokes sacked for using the women's toilets at our various sites as, rightly, those toilets are a safe space for a single sex. The women's toilets at my yard I've been told are a lot nicer than the blokes and fair play, I've seen the state some of the creatures I work with seem to relish leaving the blokes shitters in.
The thread was not about floor to ceiling, specifically constructed unisex/gender fluid/whatever toilets it was about our thoughts on men using the women's toilets and thats a absolute hard no for me. Next time I'm in the pub I'll ask all the girls in there what they think as well. I have a suspicion but I'll share the answers when I hear them.
Which loo should a transwoman use?
Transwoman, as in a biological male can use the mens toilets or the unisex disabled toilets. @Jessie and a few other female posters, the ones who are affected by this, has said similar.
Its nonsense that those of us who aren't affected are piping up saying its fine for a transwoman/biological male to use the women's toilets because they have cubicles.
And for what its worth, the western world has never been a safer place for people to be themselves. And I'm all for that, why wouldn't I be. I cant pretend to be a feminist or some bullshit like that as I'm not a female but I 100% respect the rights of women to have a safe and private place like they have for years that is exclusively for women
Can you see any issues at all in this? Set aside who - and how - this is policed, and consider whether the three people pictured below would feel safe if they're in a nightclub that has no "unisex disabled toilets" and they were prevented from using the women's loos. Does limiting these people to using men's loos in a crowded, busy nightclub late at night present any risk issues at all?
I take it they are all biological males who have made the not inconsequential life choice to live as females? I'd expect them to respect women's, biological females space and not use their toilets.
Am I in the minority here in thinking this is insane?
Which bit is insane? Making these people use the men's loo? Considering whether there might be a risk if they were to do so? Or to impose unpoliceable rules?
Callum, if you are asking me would I enforce men not going into women's toilets then the answer is yes I would enforce that, sadly I have to remind blokes at work, through their own laziness rather than them deciding to switch genders that morning, to not use the women's toilets but I'm not a toilet warden, just someone who doesn't want them to lose their jobs if they got caught
If the question is should I just let people do the decent thing and for biological males to not use women's facilities? Yeah that too, I don’t want men in women's toilets or changing rooms and I'd hope them being responsible, decent adults would prevent that but there is always a curveball or weirdo that wants to fuck up the whole thing to make a point.
We went into a restaurants toilets a little while ago and it was mixed. Didn’t bother me but the wife didn’t like the idea that she was using a loo previously used by a man. But what neither of us liked was the fact there were also urinals in there. I don’t think that is right at all.
Do you segregate your toilets at home then?
Is your front door permanently open to allow the general public of every sex/gender access to your home toilet unchecked at the same time? If not it seems a false equivalence.
Going to the loo on planes or trains (not southeastern as the loos are always shut) must be quite challenging though.
I've never known loos on trains or planes to be accessed by more than one person at a time so no possible danger to women of being flashed/molested/assaulted/raped. I don't understand. Maybe I've been whooshed?
Not whooshed. You've discovered gender neutral toilets. Congrats
I'm not sure why you've become so condescending in recent times. You appear to have changed personality.
The issue many women have is not wanting to be in toilets with men. If it a single toliet on a train or plane then that is not an issue. I'm surprised you need that explaining.
NB if you want further clarity my mum was raped, my wife has been assaulted and my sister flashed (the three women who were/are closest family).
It was a bit of fun to demonstrate the point that gender neutral toilets have existed for decades and when done properly make a safer and nicer experience for all.
I too have many women in my life who have been raped and sexually assaulted. Never by a trans person though.
I AM TALKING ABOUT MEN NOT TRANS.
My wife and I would respectfully disagree that gender neutral toilets are safer and a nicer experience for women than toilets for women. My wife thinks it is dangerous for women (just double checked).
On gender neutral bathrooms - I said when implemented properly and I stand by that. Every time I've worked in offices with gender neutral toilets (a row of small rooms exactly like a small toilet at home) everyone has universally preferred it.
Well my wife has said "no way would I prefer that" and she doesn't believe that the majority of women would prefer it and nor do I.
But if you say that every single woman, in every office that you have worked at, prefer gender neutral bathrooms, then I'll have to accept that. (Although I find that very hard to believe and I'm also surprised that you would have asked the opinion of every single woman that you've worked with at all these different offices).
When we moved offices to one with gender neutral toilets (as I said implemented properly - row of small rooms like a home toilet) there was lots of conversations about whether or not it was a good thing. Once we had actually moved those conversations were all about how it had become a nicer environment for everyone.
Another workplace when renovating the office space ran a staff survey on whether to change to gender neutral toilets and it was overwhelmingly positive and they made the change
Ok, let’s assume that gender neutral toilets in a work office, where all staff have already been “vetted” to gain employment is ok as the vast majority will not be drunk on drugs, psychotic or care in the community etc etc etc.
Do you feel there should be gender neutral toilets which will not be implemented properly in clubs, pubs, at Charlton, in parks, cinemas etc and more importantly do you think your partner (assuming she is a woman) and mother and grandmother would/would have felt the same and all women?
My wife is pro gender neutral toilets and has actively campaigned for them in certain places alongside trans and non-binary friends.
As I said if implemented properly they can work anywhere. It's pretty common in restaurants to have a small number of individual room gender neutral toilets.
Agreed restaurants and many work places are ok.
But I assume as you have avoided the question you agree that in schools, pubs at football matches, in clubs etc many women do not feel safe with men in the same toilets.
It seems to me that in an effort to support the minority trans population of presumably less than 1% you are content to ignore the wishes of the majority of the @50%.
I’m on the side of rights for women.
I haven't avoided the question at all (and you called me condescending!). I said when it can be done properly it will work. I'll apply it specifically to one of your examples.
Say a football stadium, clearly not possible/easy to implement properly retrospectively in a lot of older stadiums. But in a newly designed stadium a row of individual room gender neutral toilets can absolutely be done and would work well.
In which case we are broadly in agreement, having dug into the practicalities.
The thread was about a man, with stubble in a dress using the womens toilets. I don’t give a shiny shit why they feel entitled to do so and most women I have had any type of discussion with do not like this behaviour. We've had two blokes sacked for using the women's toilets at our various sites as, rightly, those toilets are a safe space for a single sex. The women's toilets at my yard I've been told are a lot nicer than the blokes and fair play, I've seen the state some of the creatures I work with seem to relish leaving the blokes shitters in.
The thread was not about floor to ceiling, specifically constructed unisex/gender fluid/whatever toilets it was about our thoughts on men using the women's toilets and thats a absolute hard no for me. Next time I'm in the pub I'll ask all the girls in there what they think as well. I have a suspicion but I'll share the answers when I hear them.
Which loo should a transwoman use?
Transwoman, as in a biological male can use the mens toilets or the unisex disabled toilets.@Jessie and a few other female posters, the ones who are affected by this, has said similar.
Its nonsense that those of us who aren't affected are piping up saying its fine for a transwoman/biological male to use the women's toilets because they have cubicles.
And for what it’s worth, the western world has never been a safer place for people to be themselves. And I'm all for that, why wouldn't I be. I cant pretend to be a feminist or some bullshit like that as I'm not a female but I 100% respect the rights of women to have a safe and private place like they have for years that is exclusively for women
What about a really “womanly-looking” transwoman? Someone you could easily believe was born female? Not someone with stubble and wearing dress.
Are you not putting them at risk of sexual assault by making them use the men’s room?
Then thats thankfully something I dont come into contact with too often and the burden of societal decency lands on them rather than me and any risk they put themselves at is on their own head and complicated by their own life choices
This is doing my head in now. Why can't biological men just not respect women's spaces for fuck sake? It doesn't matter what way someone slices this cake it comes down to me saying no to biological males in females spaces
THE THREAD TITLE IS BLOKES USING THE LADIES LOO. MY COMMENTS ARE ABOUT BLOKES USING THE LADIES LOO/UNISEX TOILETS (not including single cubicles on planes and trains etc which are clearly pretty safe for women).
How do you propose to check who’s a man and who’s not a man beforehand? We going to start employing toilet guards to stand at the door and fondle everyone’s private parts to find out what bathroom they SHOULD use?
No, its a system that has served us fairly well over the years. Penis = use the gents
That’s not an answer though. How do you propose to enforce it?
Nothing, at this current time, is stopping people from walking into a ladies room at all, whether they are dressed up as a man, woman, or an alien from Mars.
Thats among one of the strangest questions I've ever been asked
Decency enforces it, I don't expect toilet police I expect adults to respect females space
Incredibly strange and stupid question. Going into the toilet shouldn't need to be policed and has never been policed. Be a man and go in the gents, but going back to the original post ' Bloke with a very butch voice and stubble in a pub dressed as a woman' went into the women's toilets. The landlord should be going straight in after him and pointing him in the directions of gents.
A bloke in a dress is completely different to a trans person. I went to a Christmas do a few weeks ago dressed up as Mrs Claus and wouldn't have dreamt of using the women's toilet, despite being in full makeup, heels, wig and a dress.
I have friends on hormones, in transition, and they fully pass in society, but yes they currently have penises.
However I think it's far more likely they'd get sexually assaulted when using a men's bathroom than them being the assaulter in a women's bathroom.
FWIW they use unisex or disabled toilets wherever they can but sometimes it's not viable.
The thread was about a man, with stubble in a dress using the womens toilets. I don’t give a shiny shit why they feel entitled to do so and most women I have had any type of discussion with do not like this behaviour. We've had two blokes sacked for using the women's toilets at our various sites as, rightly, those toilets are a safe space for a single sex. The women's toilets at my yard I've been told are a lot nicer than the blokes and fair play, I've seen the state some of the creatures I work with seem to relish leaving the blokes shitters in.
The thread was not about floor to ceiling, specifically constructed unisex/gender fluid/whatever toilets it was about our thoughts on men using the women's toilets and thats a absolute hard no for me. Next time I'm in the pub I'll ask all the girls in there what they think as well. I have a suspicion but I'll share the answers when I hear them.
Which loo should a transwoman use?
Transwoman, as in a biological male can use the mens toilets or the unisex disabled toilets.@Jessie and a few other female posters, the ones who are affected by this, has said similar.
Its nonsense that those of us who aren't affected are piping up saying its fine for a transwoman/biological male to use the women's toilets because they have cubicles.
And for what it’s worth, the western world has never been a safer place for people to be themselves. And I'm all for that, why wouldn't I be. I cant pretend to be a feminist or some bullshit like that as I'm not a female but I 100% respect the rights of women to have a safe and private place like they have for years that is exclusively for women
What about a really “womanly-looking” transwoman? Someone you could easily believe was born female? Not someone with stubble and wearing dress.
Are you not putting them at risk of sexual assault by making them use the men’s room?
Possibly, but it reads as if you think the best of a very difficult situation is to put the 50% at risk rather than the less (probably much less) than 1% at risk.
Thereby you would rather put the vast majority at risk, feel scared, uncomfortable rather than the occasional trans person.
Laws should first and foremost look to protect as many people as possible not as few people as possible (imho).
The thread was about a man, with stubble in a dress using the womens toilets. I don’t give a shiny shit why they feel entitled to do so and most women I have had any type of discussion with do not like this behaviour. We've had two blokes sacked for using the women's toilets at our various sites as, rightly, those toilets are a safe space for a single sex. The women's toilets at my yard I've been told are a lot nicer than the blokes and fair play, I've seen the state some of the creatures I work with seem to relish leaving the blokes shitters in.
The thread was not about floor to ceiling, specifically constructed unisex/gender fluid/whatever toilets it was about our thoughts on men using the women's toilets and thats a absolute hard no for me. Next time I'm in the pub I'll ask all the girls in there what they think as well. I have a suspicion but I'll share the answers when I hear them.
Which loo should a transwoman use?
Transwoman, as in a biological male can use the mens toilets or the unisex disabled toilets.@Jessie and a few other female posters, the ones who are affected by this, has said similar.
Its nonsense that those of us who aren't affected are piping up saying its fine for a transwoman/biological male to use the women's toilets because they have cubicles.
And for what it’s worth, the western world has never been a safer place for people to be themselves. And I'm all for that, why wouldn't I be. I cant pretend to be a feminist or some bullshit like that as I'm not a female but I 100% respect the rights of women to have a safe and private place like they have for years that is exclusively for women
What about a really “womanly-looking” transwoman? Someone you could easily believe was born female? Not someone with stubble and wearing dress.
Are you not putting them at risk of sexual assault by making them use the men’s room?
Possibly, but it reads as if you think the best of a very difficult situation is to put the 50% at risk rather than the less (probably much less) than 1% at risk.
Thereby you would rather put the vast majority at risk, feel scared, uncomfortable rather than the occasional trans person.
Laws should first and foremost look to protect as many people as possible not as few people as possible (imho).
The framing of putting women 'at risk' is appalling, sorry. You're treating trans people like they're a threat. Cases of trans women assaulting AFAB women are vanishingly rare, and in public toilets I've basically never heard of it happening (there's probably an exception that proves the rule somewhere).
If there's a rising threat to women, and there is, it's the rise of misogynistic attitudes among young men, fuelled by Andrew Tate and his ghastly ilk. Of course Tate and company are violently transphobic too
The thread was about a man, with stubble in a dress using the womens toilets. I don’t give a shiny shit why they feel entitled to do so and most women I have had any type of discussion with do not like this behaviour. We've had two blokes sacked for using the women's toilets at our various sites as, rightly, those toilets are a safe space for a single sex. The women's toilets at my yard I've been told are a lot nicer than the blokes and fair play, I've seen the state some of the creatures I work with seem to relish leaving the blokes shitters in.
The thread was not about floor to ceiling, specifically constructed unisex/gender fluid/whatever toilets it was about our thoughts on men using the women's toilets and thats a absolute hard no for me. Next time I'm in the pub I'll ask all the girls in there what they think as well. I have a suspicion but I'll share the answers when I hear them.
Which loo should a transwoman use?
Transwoman, as in a biological male can use the mens toilets or the unisex disabled toilets. @Jessie and a few other female posters, the ones who are affected by this, has said similar.
Its nonsense that those of us who aren't affected are piping up saying its fine for a transwoman/biological male to use the women's toilets because they have cubicles.
And for what its worth, the western world has never been a safer place for people to be themselves. And I'm all for that, why wouldn't I be. I cant pretend to be a feminist or some bullshit like that as I'm not a female but I 100% respect the rights of women to have a safe and private place like they have for years that is exclusively for women
Can you see any issues at all in this? Set aside who - and how - this is policed, and consider whether the three people pictured below would feel safe if they're in a nightclub that has no "unisex disabled toilets" and they were prevented from using the women's loos. Does limiting these people to using men's loos in a crowded, busy nightclub late at night present any risk issues at all?
I take it they are all biological males who have made the not inconsequential life choice to live as females? I'd expect them to respect women's, biological females space and not use their toilets.
Am I in the minority here in thinking this is insane?
Which bit is insane? Making these people use the men's loo? Considering whether there might be a risk if they were to do so? Or to impose unpoliceable rules?
Call it a day there would you. I'm getting less and less caring about "risk" to a biological male using a disabled toilet that I am catering for them imposing on women's spaces. I'm assuming you are a man or at least not female. You, like me don't have the right to say who, apart from women can go into womens toilets.
Congratulations on finding a single example, as I said would happen. The Telegraph have no ulterior motive for using single examples to stoke a reactionary culture war of course
I've no issue with a person that has transitioned to using women's toilets. But I do have an issue with a bloke who identifies as a woman on a Saturday night to using them. Imagine those toilets say for example at Cannon Street station, I've not used them in a long time but I always found them a bit scary as they are down the stairs and isolated. Toilets like that should remain single sex.
Aside from that, men and women's toilets are completely different things... I can honestly say hand on heart that I have never heard a woman go for a poo in the work toilets - go and ask your wives and g/f's if they poo at work if someone else is in the loo? I would die a million times listening to a male colleague take a crap in the cubicle next to me. Call it old fashioned but some things are just best left as they are. I went in to a unisex loo in a wine bar in the city. It stunk of shit. The blokes at work use the client toilets which are single cubicles... when I go past - they stink of shit. Before we have clients arrive I have to go in with the bog brush to clear up peoples mess as they dont know how to use one. (One of the perks of my job) I'm always having to get the maintenance team in the blokes because someone's almighty turd blocked the whole thing up. I really am surprised that women want to stand in a queue with men and go in to smell their shit.
So won't the nice gentleman please let us keep our loos?
Congratulations on finding a single example, as I said would happen. The Telegraph have no ulterior motive for using single examples to stoke a reactionary culture war of course
'A man who was accused of secretly filming women in a female lavatory told police he identifies as a woman as he was arrested'
Fuck those women in that article. My real thoughts go out to Leuths trans friends instead.
The thread was about a man, with stubble in a dress using the womens toilets. I don’t give a shiny shit why they feel entitled to do so and most women I have had any type of discussion with do not like this behaviour. We've had two blokes sacked for using the women's toilets at our various sites as, rightly, those toilets are a safe space for a single sex. The women's toilets at my yard I've been told are a lot nicer than the blokes and fair play, I've seen the state some of the creatures I work with seem to relish leaving the blokes shitters in.
The thread was not about floor to ceiling, specifically constructed unisex/gender fluid/whatever toilets it was about our thoughts on men using the women's toilets and thats a absolute hard no for me. Next time I'm in the pub I'll ask all the girls in there what they think as well. I have a suspicion but I'll share the answers when I hear them.
Which loo should a transwoman use?
Transwoman, as in a biological male can use the mens toilets or the unisex disabled toilets. @Jessie and a few other female posters, the ones who are affected by this, has said similar.
Its nonsense that those of us who aren't affected are piping up saying its fine for a transwoman/biological male to use the women's toilets because they have cubicles.
And for what its worth, the western world has never been a safer place for people to be themselves. And I'm all for that, why wouldn't I be. I cant pretend to be a feminist or some bullshit like that as I'm not a female but I 100% respect the rights of women to have a safe and private place like they have for years that is exclusively for women
Can you see any issues at all in this? Set aside who - and how - this is policed, and consider whether the three people pictured below would feel safe if they're in a nightclub that has no "unisex disabled toilets" and they were prevented from using the women's loos. Does limiting these people to using men's loos in a crowded, busy nightclub late at night present any risk issues at all?
I take it they are all biological males who have made the not inconsequential life choice to live as females? I'd expect them to respect women's, biological females space and not use their toilets.
Am I in the minority here in thinking this is insane?
Which bit is insane? Making these people use the men's loo? Considering whether there might be a risk if they were to do so? Or to impose unpoliceable rules?
Call it a day there would you. I'm getting less and less caring about "risk" to a biological male using a disabled toilet that I am catering for them imposing on women's spaces. I'm assuming you are a man or at least not female. You, like me don't have the right to say who, apart from women can go into womens toilets.
OK that's fair enough and you've made your reasonable view perfectly clear. We happen to disagree on a couple of points only. Because I think if someone is at risk through being required to use a male toilet, that's a bad thing. And, while I agree that I don't have the right to say who uses which loo (in fact, I have tried as much as possible not to dictate what the solution is; instead I have tried to see where there are issues with people who think the solutions are "simple"), I think it's fair to say it's you that is claiming the right to say who can use which toilet.
The thread was about a man, with stubble in a dress using the womens toilets. I don’t give a shiny shit why they feel entitled to do so and most women I have had any type of discussion with do not like this behaviour. We've had two blokes sacked for using the women's toilets at our various sites as, rightly, those toilets are a safe space for a single sex. The women's toilets at my yard I've been told are a lot nicer than the blokes and fair play, I've seen the state some of the creatures I work with seem to relish leaving the blokes shitters in.
The thread was not about floor to ceiling, specifically constructed unisex/gender fluid/whatever toilets it was about our thoughts on men using the women's toilets and thats a absolute hard no for me. Next time I'm in the pub I'll ask all the girls in there what they think as well. I have a suspicion but I'll share the answers when I hear them.
The thread was about a man, with stubble in a dress using the womens toilets. I don’t give a shiny shit why they feel entitled to do so and most women I have had any type of discussion with do not like this behaviour. We've had two blokes sacked for using the women's toilets at our various sites as, rightly, those toilets are a safe space for a single sex. The women's toilets at my yard I've been told are a lot nicer than the blokes and fair play, I've seen the state some of the creatures I work with seem to relish leaving the blokes shitters in.
The thread was not about floor to ceiling, specifically constructed unisex/gender fluid/whatever toilets it was about our thoughts on men using the women's toilets and thats a absolute hard no for me. Next time I'm in the pub I'll ask all the girls in there what they think as well. I have a suspicion but I'll share the answers when I hear them.
I've been careful not to post on this thread until now because it's a very touchy topic and it's usually best avoided on the forum about a naff football team but I did just want to add one perspective that hopefully ties some things together. It's good to support women's safety and listen to female voices. However we also do have to listen to trans voices as a threatened and currently beseiged community.
Ultimately all these arguments boil down to the question of how we protect people from men, which is a pretty bleak state of affairs. Women have every right and are statistically correct to be concerned about being victimised by men, especially in an enclosed and exposed space. Rape convictions are plummeting and reports of sexual aggression are on the rise. Trans people however are also pretty frightened at the moment; 62-73% of trans people have experienced harassment and violence because they were identified as transgender, and there's acceptance that a huge amount of this goes unreported. Trans people are twice as likely to be victims of crime and one particularly sad fact is that a lot of trans people really aren't enjoying the debate too much either: 67% have reported holding it in and avoiding using public facilities at all because of how uncomfortable and often scared they are about using the facilities (go to the women's as a transwoman and potentially be making others uncomfortable or be verbally/physically attacked, go to the men's and potentially be physically or sexually assaulted). 38% have avoided eating or drinking while out so they don't have to risk using the facilities; imagine going out for a drink with your friends but being too scared to do the drink part in case you need to use the toilet.
I don't know what the answer is in terms of toilets but a huge amount more has to be done to educate men in society. It's disgusting to see the rising instances of harassment, hatred and ignorance towards women and nothing is being done about it. Successive governments are quite happy to let the media stir up anti-trans rhetoric in their reporting, a lot of it about the threat this group poses to women, but do almost nothing about the likes of self-confessed misogynist Andrew Tate amassing 10 million followers online along with the longterm growth of incel culture and parts of the internet that used to be hidden corners but are now open shopfronts for disenfranchised men to sharpen their hatred of women. The note of caution I'm trying to strike here is that the people talking about the issues being ballooned aren't necessarily attempting to undermine women's fears so much as they are aware that this increased reporting increases the genuine threat to life that trans people face every day for existing. There's been something insane like a 400% increase in stories on trans issues in the media since 2012 and this kind of thing massively increases scrutiny and with it hatred and distrust. Trans people are more scared than ever, and there's been a rise in 'transvestigating' where lunatics are beginning to police people's gender in new and aggressive ways. This includes increased threat to cis women who don't present in a traditionally feminine way being targeted for using the supposedly incorrect facilities because they are identified as a trans threat - that's usually men doing it as well.
If you are a woman and you feel frightened by the idea of the normalisation of people who present in varied ways using the same public toilets as you without the associated improvements in society to protect you from the monsters in it then that's ok, you're not wrong at all. Similarly if you're a trans person wondering where the hell you can go to the toilet (or anywhere) without being victimised then that's also very valid. Again, I don't know how to fix the toilet issue because I don't think there is an easy answer but I think it is important for people to remember that there isn't one perspective on safety to consider; we must protect women and trans people from being attacked and we mustn't let media rhetoric and populism convince us that one of those groups is the problem when it's violent men who are the ongoing threat, and it's a wider problem that requires urgent social change.
The thread was about a man, with stubble in a dress using the womens toilets. I don’t give a shiny shit why they feel entitled to do so and most women I have had any type of discussion with do not like this behaviour. We've had two blokes sacked for using the women's toilets at our various sites as, rightly, those toilets are a safe space for a single sex. The women's toilets at my yard I've been told are a lot nicer than the blokes and fair play, I've seen the state some of the creatures I work with seem to relish leaving the blokes shitters in.
The thread was not about floor to ceiling, specifically constructed unisex/gender fluid/whatever toilets it was about our thoughts on men using the women's toilets and thats a absolute hard no for me. Next time I'm in the pub I'll ask all the girls in there what they think as well. I have a suspicion but I'll share the answers when I hear them.
Which loo should a transwoman use?
Some on here won't like my answer but here goes.
If you have a penis you use the mens.
If you have a vagina you use the ladies.
Who polices that?
Make it the law and police it like we do every other law.
The thread was about a man, with stubble in a dress using the womens toilets. I don’t give a shiny shit why they feel entitled to do so and most women I have had any type of discussion with do not like this behaviour. We've had two blokes sacked for using the women's toilets at our various sites as, rightly, those toilets are a safe space for a single sex. The women's toilets at my yard I've been told are a lot nicer than the blokes and fair play, I've seen the state some of the creatures I work with seem to relish leaving the blokes shitters in.
The thread was not about floor to ceiling, specifically constructed unisex/gender fluid/whatever toilets it was about our thoughts on men using the women's toilets and thats a absolute hard no for me. Next time I'm in the pub I'll ask all the girls in there what they think as well. I have a suspicion but I'll share the answers when I hear them.
Which loo should a transwoman use?
Some on here won't like my answer but here goes.
If you have a penis you use the mens.
If you have a vagina you use the ladies.
Who polices that?
Make it the law and police it like we do every other law.
So, when a policeman stops you when you're driving, you have to show your driving licence. Does that mean you have to show your reproductive parts when you want to use a loo? This is a preposterous exaggeration to illustrate the point.
How does anyone "in charge" ever going to know whether people using the loos are doing so within the law or outside it, if the measure is as simple and straightforward as you suggest?
The thread was about a man, with stubble in a dress using the womens toilets. I don’t give a shiny shit why they feel entitled to do so and most women I have had any type of discussion with do not like this behaviour. We've had two blokes sacked for using the women's toilets at our various sites as, rightly, those toilets are a safe space for a single sex. The women's toilets at my yard I've been told are a lot nicer than the blokes and fair play, I've seen the state some of the creatures I work with seem to relish leaving the blokes shitters in.
The thread was not about floor to ceiling, specifically constructed unisex/gender fluid/whatever toilets it was about our thoughts on men using the women's toilets and thats a absolute hard no for me. Next time I'm in the pub I'll ask all the girls in there what they think as well. I have a suspicion but I'll share the answers when I hear them.
Which loo should a transwoman use?
Some on here won't like my answer but here goes.
If you have a penis you use the mens.
If you have a vagina you use the ladies.
Who polices that?
Make it the law and police it like we do every other law.
So, when a policeman stops you when you're driving, you have to show your driving licence. Does that mean you have to show your reproductive parts when you want to use a loo? This is a preposterous exaggeration to illustrate the point.
How does anyone "in charge" ever going to know whether people using the loos are doing so within the law or outside it, if the measure is as simple and straightforward as you suggest?
I'm not saying it's simple or straightforward but as someone who has three granddaughters between the ages of 5 and 13 I would not be happy with a man going into the same toilets as them.
If you are a woman and you feel frightened by the idea of the normalisation of people who present in varied ways using the same public toilets as you without the associated improvements in society to protect you from the monsters in it then that's ok,
The thread was about a man, with stubble in a dress using the womens toilets. I don’t give a shiny shit why they feel entitled to do so and most women I have had any type of discussion with do not like this behaviour. We've had two blokes sacked for using the women's toilets at our various sites as, rightly, those toilets are a safe space for a single sex. The women's toilets at my yard I've been told are a lot nicer than the blokes and fair play, I've seen the state some of the creatures I work with seem to relish leaving the blokes shitters in.
The thread was not about floor to ceiling, specifically constructed unisex/gender fluid/whatever toilets it was about our thoughts on men using the women's toilets and thats a absolute hard no for me. Next time I'm in the pub I'll ask all the girls in there what they think as well. I have a suspicion but I'll share the answers when I hear them.
Which loo should a transwoman use?
Transwoman, as in a biological male can use the mens toilets or the unisex disabled toilets. @Jessie and a few other female posters, the ones who are affected by this, has said similar.
Its nonsense that those of us who aren't affected are piping up saying its fine for a transwoman/biological male to use the women's toilets because they have cubicles.
And for what its worth, the western world has never been a safer place for people to be themselves. And I'm all for that, why wouldn't I be. I cant pretend to be a feminist or some bullshit like that as I'm not a female but I 100% respect the rights of women to have a safe and private place like they have for years that is exclusively for women
Can you see any issues at all in this? Set aside who - and how - this is policed, and consider whether the three people pictured below would feel safe if they're in a nightclub that has no "unisex disabled toilets" and they were prevented from using the women's loos. Does limiting these people to using men's loos in a crowded, busy nightclub late at night present any risk issues at all?
I take it they are all biological males who have made the not inconsequential life choice to live as females? I'd expect them to respect women's, biological females space and not use their toilets.
Am I in the minority here in thinking this is insane?
I agree. Got a Willy, use the mens, not got a Willy, use the ladies. Simples.
The thread was about a man, with stubble in a dress using the womens toilets. I don’t give a shiny shit why they feel entitled to do so and most women I have had any type of discussion with do not like this behaviour. We've had two blokes sacked for using the women's toilets at our various sites as, rightly, those toilets are a safe space for a single sex. The women's toilets at my yard I've been told are a lot nicer than the blokes and fair play, I've seen the state some of the creatures I work with seem to relish leaving the blokes shitters in.
The thread was not about floor to ceiling, specifically constructed unisex/gender fluid/whatever toilets it was about our thoughts on men using the women's toilets and thats a absolute hard no for me. Next time I'm in the pub I'll ask all the girls in there what they think as well. I have a suspicion but I'll share the answers when I hear them.
Which loo should a transwoman use?
Some on here won't like my answer but here goes.
If you have a penis you use the mens.
If you have a vagina you use the ladies.
Who polices that?
Make it the law and police it like we do every other law.
So, when a policeman stops you when you're driving, you have to show your driving licence. Does that mean you have to show your reproductive parts when you want to use a loo? This is a preposterous exaggeration to illustrate the point.
How does anyone "in charge" ever going to know whether people using the loos are doing so within the law or outside it, if the measure is as simple and straightforward as you suggest?
I'm not saying it's simple or straightforward but as someone who has three granddaughters between the ages of 5 and 13 I would not be happy with a man going into the same toilets as them.
It's impossible to police without unfairly treating women. I don't want any female relative or friend of mine ever to have to "prove" they are physically entitled to use a women's toilet. That would be the risk of a binary, enforced policy.
The thread was about a man, with stubble in a dress using the womens toilets. I don’t give a shiny shit why they feel entitled to do so and most women I have had any type of discussion with do not like this behaviour. We've had two blokes sacked for using the women's toilets at our various sites as, rightly, those toilets are a safe space for a single sex. The women's toilets at my yard I've been told are a lot nicer than the blokes and fair play, I've seen the state some of the creatures I work with seem to relish leaving the blokes shitters in.
The thread was not about floor to ceiling, specifically constructed unisex/gender fluid/whatever toilets it was about our thoughts on men using the women's toilets and thats a absolute hard no for me. Next time I'm in the pub I'll ask all the girls in there what they think as well. I have a suspicion but I'll share the answers when I hear them.
Which loo should a transwoman use?
Some on here won't like my answer but here goes.
If you have a penis you use the mens.
If you have a vagina you use the ladies.
Who polices that?
Make it the law and police it like we do every other law.
So, when a policeman stops you when you're driving, you have to show your driving licence. Does that mean you have to show your reproductive parts when you want to use a loo? This is a preposterous exaggeration to illustrate the point.
How does anyone "in charge" ever going to know whether people using the loos are doing so within the law or outside it, if the measure is as simple and straightforward as you suggest?
I'm not saying it's simple or straightforward but as someone who has three granddaughters between the ages of 5 and 13 I would not be happy with a man going into the same toilets as them.
I wouldn't be happy either but I would broaden it to not being happy about any person using a public toilet for sexual gratification purposes. So the example about a man dressed as a woman taking secret photos is terrible and he deserves severe punsihment. I might add, so does a woman doing the same in a woman's toilet. It is the act itself which is the problem.
I would imagine there are some places where a trans person, would be very uncomfortable going into a men's toilet and genuinely at risk of violence. Are we not allowed to imagine such an obvious scenario or do we have a permission not to care when it comes to them?
The thread was about a man, with stubble in a dress using the womens toilets. I don’t give a shiny shit why they feel entitled to do so and most women I have had any type of discussion with do not like this behaviour. We've had two blokes sacked for using the women's toilets at our various sites as, rightly, those toilets are a safe space for a single sex. The women's toilets at my yard I've been told are a lot nicer than the blokes and fair play, I've seen the state some of the creatures I work with seem to relish leaving the blokes shitters in.
The thread was not about floor to ceiling, specifically constructed unisex/gender fluid/whatever toilets it was about our thoughts on men using the women's toilets and thats a absolute hard no for me. Next time I'm in the pub I'll ask all the girls in there what they think as well. I have a suspicion but I'll share the answers when I hear them.
Which loo should a transwoman use?
Transwoman, as in a biological male can use the mens toilets or the unisex disabled toilets. @Jessie and a few other female posters, the ones who are affected by this, has said similar.
Its nonsense that those of us who aren't affected are piping up saying its fine for a transwoman/biological male to use the women's toilets because they have cubicles.
And for what its worth, the western world has never been a safer place for people to be themselves. And I'm all for that, why wouldn't I be. I cant pretend to be a feminist or some bullshit like that as I'm not a female but I 100% respect the rights of women to have a safe and private place like they have for years that is exclusively for women
Can you see any issues at all in this? Set aside who - and how - this is policed, and consider whether the three people pictured below would feel safe if they're in a nightclub that has no "unisex disabled toilets" and they were prevented from using the women's loos. Does limiting these people to using men's loos in a crowded, busy nightclub late at night present any risk issues at all?
I take it they are all biological males who have made the not inconsequential life choice to live as females? I'd expect them to respect women's, biological females space and not use their toilets.
Am I in the minority here in thinking this is insane?
I agree. Got a Willy, use the mens, not got a Willy, use the ladies. Simples.
Oh, thank goodness it's simple! Which loo do the three people pictured use? Who checks?
The thread was about a man, with stubble in a dress using the womens toilets. I don’t give a shiny shit why they feel entitled to do so and most women I have had any type of discussion with do not like this behaviour. We've had two blokes sacked for using the women's toilets at our various sites as, rightly, those toilets are a safe space for a single sex. The women's toilets at my yard I've been told are a lot nicer than the blokes and fair play, I've seen the state some of the creatures I work with seem to relish leaving the blokes shitters in.
The thread was not about floor to ceiling, specifically constructed unisex/gender fluid/whatever toilets it was about our thoughts on men using the women's toilets and thats a absolute hard no for me. Next time I'm in the pub I'll ask all the girls in there what they think as well. I have a suspicion but I'll share the answers when I hear them.
Which loo should a transwoman use?
Some on here won't like my answer but here goes.
If you have a penis you use the mens.
If you have a vagina you use the ladies.
Who polices that?
Make it the law and police it like we do every other law.
So, when a policeman stops you when you're driving, you have to show your driving licence. Does that mean you have to show your reproductive parts when you want to use a loo? This is a preposterous exaggeration to illustrate the point.
How does anyone "in charge" ever going to know whether people using the loos are doing so within the law or outside it, if the measure is as simple and straightforward as you suggest?
I'm not saying it's simple or straightforward but as someone who has three granddaughters between the ages of 5 and 13 I would not be happy with a man going into the same toilets as them.
It's impossible to police without unfairly treating women. I don't want any female relative or friend of mine ever to have to "prove" they are physically entitled to use a women's toilet. That would be the risk of a binary, enforced policy.
Comments
Are you not putting them at risk of sexual assault by making them use the men’s room?
Am I in the minority here in thinking this is insane?
Maybe you’re right and we do just keep the honour system. It’s worked pretty well for a long time I agree.
If the question is should I just let people do the decent thing and for biological males to not use women's facilities? Yeah that too, I don’t want men in women's toilets or changing rooms and I'd hope them being responsible, decent adults would prevent that but there is always a curveball or weirdo that wants to fuck up the whole thing to make a point.
This is doing my head in now. Why can't biological men just not respect women's spaces for fuck sake? It doesn't matter what way someone slices this cake it comes down to me saying no to biological males in females spaces
I have friends on hormones, in transition, and they fully pass in society, but yes they currently have penises.
However I think it's far more likely they'd get sexually assaulted when using a men's bathroom than them being the assaulter in a women's bathroom.
FWIW they use unisex or disabled toilets wherever they can but sometimes it's not viable.
Thereby you would rather put the vast majority at risk, feel scared, uncomfortable rather than the occasional trans person.
Laws should first and foremost look to protect as many people as possible not as few people as possible (imho).
If there's a rising threat to women, and there is, it's the rise of misogynistic attitudes among young men, fuelled by Andrew Tate and his ghastly ilk. Of course Tate and company are violently transphobic too
Aside from that, men and women's toilets are completely different things... I can honestly say hand on heart that I have never heard a woman go for a poo in the work toilets - go and ask your wives and g/f's if they poo at work if someone else is in the loo? I would die a million times listening to a male colleague take a crap in the cubicle next to me. Call it old fashioned but some things are just best left as they are. I went in to a unisex loo in a wine bar in the city. It stunk of shit. The blokes at work use the client toilets which are single cubicles... when I go past - they stink of shit. Before we have clients arrive I have to go in with the bog brush to clear up peoples mess as they dont know how to use one. (One of the perks of my job) I'm always having to get the maintenance team in the blokes because someone's almighty turd blocked the whole thing up. I really am surprised that women want to stand in a queue with men and go in to smell their shit.
So won't the nice gentleman please let us keep our loos?
Fuck those women in that article. My real thoughts go out to Leuths trans friends instead.
If you have a penis you use the mens.
If you have a vagina you use the ladies.
Ultimately all these arguments boil down to the question of how we protect people from men, which is a pretty bleak state of affairs. Women have every right and are statistically correct to be concerned about being victimised by men, especially in an enclosed and exposed space. Rape convictions are plummeting and reports of sexual aggression are on the rise. Trans people however are also pretty frightened at the moment; 62-73% of trans people have experienced harassment and violence because they were identified as transgender, and there's acceptance that a huge amount of this goes unreported. Trans people are twice as likely to be victims of crime and one particularly sad fact is that a lot of trans people really aren't enjoying the debate too much either: 67% have reported holding it in and avoiding using public facilities at all because of how uncomfortable and often scared they are about using the facilities (go to the women's as a transwoman and potentially be making others uncomfortable or be verbally/physically attacked, go to the men's and potentially be physically or sexually assaulted). 38% have avoided eating or drinking while out so they don't have to risk using the facilities; imagine going out for a drink with your friends but being too scared to do the drink part in case you need to use the toilet.
I don't know what the answer is in terms of toilets but a huge amount more has to be done to educate men in society. It's disgusting to see the rising instances of harassment, hatred and ignorance towards women and nothing is being done about it. Successive governments are quite happy to let the media stir up anti-trans rhetoric in their reporting, a lot of it about the threat this group poses to women, but do almost nothing about the likes of self-confessed misogynist Andrew Tate amassing 10 million followers online along with the longterm growth of incel culture and parts of the internet that used to be hidden corners but are now open shopfronts for disenfranchised men to sharpen their hatred of women. The note of caution I'm trying to strike here is that the people talking about the issues being ballooned aren't necessarily attempting to undermine women's fears so much as they are aware that this increased reporting increases the genuine threat to life that trans people face every day for existing. There's been something insane like a 400% increase in stories on trans issues in the media since 2012 and this kind of thing massively increases scrutiny and with it hatred and distrust. Trans people are more scared than ever, and there's been a rise in 'transvestigating' where lunatics are beginning to police people's gender in new and aggressive ways. This includes increased threat to cis women who don't present in a traditionally feminine way being targeted for using the supposedly incorrect facilities because they are identified as a trans threat - that's usually men doing it as well.
If you are a woman and you feel frightened by the idea of the normalisation of people who present in varied ways using the same public toilets as you without the associated improvements in society to protect you from the monsters in it then that's ok, you're not wrong at all. Similarly if you're a trans person wondering where the hell you can go to the toilet (or anywhere) without being victimised then that's also very valid. Again, I don't know how to fix the toilet issue because I don't think there is an easy answer but I think it is important for people to remember that there isn't one perspective on safety to consider; we must protect women and trans people from being attacked and we mustn't let media rhetoric and populism convince us that one of those groups is the problem when it's violent men who are the ongoing threat, and it's a wider problem that requires urgent social change.
How does anyone "in charge" ever going to know whether people using the loos are doing so within the law or outside it, if the measure is as simple and straightforward as you suggest?
Monsters... condescending waffle.
I would imagine there are some places where a trans person, would be very uncomfortable going into a men's toilet and genuinely at risk of violence. Are we not allowed to imagine such an obvious scenario or do we have a permission not to care when it comes to them?