On the missing records, this is the auditors comment…
So let's be honest, there's a chance it's worse than what's actually been shown? Cause it's unlikely it would be any better.
I've never known a company to be folded by a single cyber attack. Do big companies not also keep things in writing, have back up files/fail-safes. I understand systems going down for a period of time, happens to massive companies, but to lose records completely?
Without getting the tin hat out, it almost sounds deliberate.
Back in my days as a VAT man it was always astonishing the proportion of businesses that seemed to have only just lost their records in the few days before I turned up. Remarkable.
These are the accounts for a season in which we finished in our lowest league position in 80 years (I believe) and had three managers! Revenue was bound to be down and losses increased. Those losses are covered by the ownership and there is nothing to indicate any drop in commitment to continue to cover future losses. The owners will of course want to see progression on the pitch and we can surely all agree that we have seen that this season (after a dodgy start). If we get promoted this year then I would think that will be ahead of the expectations of the owners' long term plan. 2024/25 will still be showing an operating loss, as will 2025/26 especially if we get promoted.
One of the big criticisms of Tommy Boy was the lack of a functioning executive team, he ran it along with Raylene and his boy! The new owners put in an executive team, the selection of that team is up for debate but it was put in place and moves have been made to mitigate that selection. So no executive team under TS and one put in place by the new owners in their first season of ownership - no shit Sherlock that executive pay increased! CM, JR, AS et al didn't set their own pay and the right people command commensurate remuneration. Hopefully the right people will be out in place but I would not expect the new CEO to be earning less than CM.
Methven paying himself and his mates massive salaries while running the club into the ground? Who could have predicted this!
The club is being run into the ground? We have the best and fittest squad in years, with a chance of promotion in April.
How is it being run in to the ground? Can you explain your thinking?
Those costs are covered by the owners. We're not borrowing money to cover debt. I'ts coming from the owners pockets?
It’s the losing millions and millions of pounds for me tbh.
I hope we go up as much as anyone, but I’m not sure where it leaves us if we don’t. If gambling on getting promoted this season was the goal at the start of the season then that looked very risky in August and even now with us in a very good position the play-offs are still a lottery.
I’m not sure how happy the owners will be to absorb those losses indefinitely - and in fact they’re clearly not, as they’ve already got rid of him!
Methven paying himself and his mates massive salaries while running the club into the ground? Who could have predicted this!
If having our best squad in years, our best manager in years, and our best chance at promotion in years is ‘running the club into the ground’ I’ll take it.
Staggering to me that people are still willing to defend Methven when he’s repeatedly shown his true colours. His one trick is to persuade a club to pay him and his mates a massive salary for as long as he can get away with it and then waltz off. He barely even tries to hide it!
1. Turnover down - it was our worst ever season so no surprise really. 2. £1.9M on the SMT seems a very large amount, but there were a lot of them; Methven, Warwick, Lenegan, Rodwell, Scott, Elliot and other non execs. The owners surely would have signed off our budget for this so whilst Methven maybe got away with an inflated salary the owners clearly thought it was value at the time they employed him. 3. Ransomware - it is one of the biggest "businesses" turnover wise, globally (sad but true). Loads of companies are affected by it, smaller companies (and with sub £10m turnover that is what we are); are less likely to have systems in place as a backup. 4. If the owners were really fooled by Methvens chat about reducing losses to £2m then "fools and their money are easily parted" readily springs to mind. I don't think they are fools.
This was shared at the online directors’ Q&A in January showing the current financial year with a similar outturn to 22/23. The accounts just released are for the year inbetween.
And that ommission of the 23/24 numbers was pointed out by many at the time.
The owners saw the numbers and took action, seems the owners aren’t negligent
I am not against the owners, but to play devil's advocate a bit:
- they would have signed off the £1.9M on the SMT. - if they "saw the numbers" from the draft financial accounts and "took action" I would suggest they are negligent as they should have noticed the £250K per week they were pumping in since acquiring us and noticed the worst league position in 80 years last season and acted sooner...
A very damming audit report A company this size should have made backs ups/ have a disaster recovery plan Obviously these figures are now 9 months out of date. Are managemenent accounts produced on a monthly basis (normal ptractice and I should hope so)? If they are, then why did it take so long so for the owners to take action? If I was the Finance Director I would definately be looking for another job.
These are the accounts for a season in which we finished in our lowest league position in 80 years (I believe) and had three managers! Revenue was bound to be down and losses increased. Those losses are covered by the ownership and there is nothing to indicate any drop in commitment to continue to cover future losses. The owners will of course want to see progression on the pitch and we can surely all agree that we have seen that this season (after a dodgy start). If we get promoted this year then I would think that will be ahead of the expectations of the owners' long term plan. 2024/25 will still be showing an operating loss, as will 2025/26 especially if we get promoted.
One of the big criticisms of Tommy Boy was the lack of a functioning executive team, he ran it along with Raylene and his boy! The new owners put in an executive team, the selection of that team is up for debate but it was put in place and moves have been made to mitigate that selection. So no executive team under TS and one in put in place by the new owners in their first season of ownership - no shit Sherlock that executive pay increased! CM, JR, AS et al didn't set their own pay and the right people command commensurate remuneration. Hopefully the right people will be out in place but I would not expect the new CEO to be earning less CM.
Like pretty much all of this @bobmunro and you will have a better handle than most of us on what CEO pay is across the EFL. But it feels like CM was at top end of scale for League 1 (I’ve heard £300k from more than one credible source in the industry), when the only figure I can find for average L1 salary suggests c.£90k, with the average in the Championship around £295k.
I’d hope any new appointment has a more performance related remuneration structure.
Methven paying himself and his mates massive salaries while running the club into the ground? Who could have predicted this!
The club is being run into the ground? We have the best and fittest squad in years, with a chance of promotion in April.
How is it being run in to the ground? Can you explain your thinking?
Those costs are covered by the owners. We're not borrowing money to cover debt. I'ts coming from the owners pockets?
It’s the losing millions and millions of pounds for me tbh.
I hope we go up as much as anyone, but I’m not sure where it leaves us if we don’t. If gambling on getting promoted this season was the goal at the start of the season then that looked very risky in August and even now with us in a very good position the play-offs are still a lottery.
I’m not sure how happy the owners will be to absorb those losses indefinitely - and in fact they’re clearly not, as they’ve already got rid of him!
Surely if they were "gambling" on promotion we wouldn't have come out of the January window with less players than we went into it. Or, more importantly, went into the final months of the season with just one "winger" (TC) and no back up. Or a strikeforce that included a busted flush (Aneke) a player with just 1 league goal to his name (Ahadme) and another striker not fully fit (Leaburn).
The owners saw the numbers and took action, seems the owners aren’t negligent
I am not against the owners, but to play devil's advocate a bit:
- they would have signed off the £1.9M on the SMT. - if they "saw the numbers" from the draft financial accounts and "took action" I would suggest they are negligent as they should have noticed the £250K per week they were pumping in since acquiring us and noticed the worst league position in 80 years last season and acted sooner...
You're saying the owners are "negligent" by spunking their own money on us?
The owners saw the numbers and took action, seems the owners aren’t negligent
The shape of these numbers will have been available to them last summer, along with the league table. It’s likely to be the reason Methven was appointed as chief exec, so he could be held to account. More recently people were put in to look at what was happening on the ground. If the owners didn’t know anything until recently that would be negligent. In fact they have acted in a proportionate and responsible way, giving Charlie and co enough rope to hang themselves.
The owners saw the numbers and took action, seems the owners aren’t negligent
The shape of these numbers will have been available to them last summer, along with the league table. It’s likely to be the reason Methven was appointed as chief exec, so he could be held to account. More recently people were put in to look at what was happening on the ground. If the owners didn’t know anything until recently that would be negligent. In fact they have acted in a proportionate and responsible way, giving Charlie and co enough rope to hang themselves.
You mentioned previously Rodwell putting himself up for the CEO role. If what you say is true then surely he hasn't a cat in hells chance?
The owners saw the numbers and took action, seems the owners aren’t negligent
I am not against the owners, but to play devil's advocate a bit:
- they would have signed off the £1.9M on the SMT. - if they "saw the numbers" from the draft financial accounts and "took action" I would suggest they are negligent as they should have noticed the £250K per week they were pumping in since acquiring us and noticed the worst league position in 80 years last season and acted sooner...
You're saying the owners are "negligent" by spunking their own money on us?
Mad, maybe. But negligent?
No, sorry badly written by me, and I see Airman Brown has written something better above.
My point was that if the owners saw this set of accounts and were surprised by them enough to take action it would have been negligent.
Our owners are grown up business people, I don't expect these numbers to have come as a surprise to them, especially when they have been underwriting our losses throughout.
I would guess that Methven is more likely to have gone because this year's numbers 24/25 are not showing sufficient signs of improving.
These are the accounts for a season in which we finished in our lowest league position in 80 years (I believe) and had three managers! Revenue was bound to be down and losses increased. Those losses are covered by the ownership and there is nothing to indicate any drop in commitment to continue to cover future losses. The owners will of course want to see progression on the pitch and we can surely all agree that we have seen that this season (after a dodgy start). If we get promoted this year then I would think that will be ahead of the expectations of the owners' long term plan. 2024/25 will still be showing an operating loss, as will 2025/26 especially if we get promoted.
One of the big criticisms of Tommy Boy was the lack of a functioning executive team, he ran it along with Raylene and his boy! The new owners put in an executive team, the selection of that team is up for debate but it was put in place and moves have been made to mitigate that selection. So no executive team under TS and one in put in place by the new owners in their first season of ownership - no shit Sherlock that executive pay increased! CM, JR, AS et al didn't set their own pay and the right people command commensurate remuneration. Hopefully the right people will be out in place but I would not expect the new CEO to be earning less CM.
Like pretty much all of this @bobmunro and you will have a better handle than most of us on what CEO pay is across the EFL. But it feels like CM was at top end of scale for League 1 (I’ve heard £300k from more than one credible source in the industry), when the only figure I can find for average L1 salary suggests c.£90k, with the average in the Championship around £295k.
I’d hope any new appointment has a more performance related remuneration structure.
The argument there was no executive pay prior to this lot won’t wash, since there has “only” been an 80% uplift. It will include the first team manager, with a fraction of the full-year cost of Nathan Jones, which is likely to be more than Appleton or Holden. It probably includes other football management, especially the head of the academy and Steve Gallen as predecessor to Andy Scott. Peter Storrie was in place as chief exec from Feb 23.
Nevertheless it’s reasonable to assume that Methven was handsomely rewarded - the £300k figure has been mentioned by people in the game - and there are questions about who pays GFP “sporting director”Simon Lenagan, as well as what he does. It was always bleedin’ obvious the senior management was top heavy and the excessive cost won’t be confined to executive pay.
23/24 was always going to look horrible in the accounts. A poor season in the league, with 2 managerial sackings. Plus the previous season 22/23 had the income from the EFL Cup run (with the game at Old Trafford).
The senior exec team in place until recently did seem rather excessive in number for a 3rd division side, reflected in the wages.
This was shared at the online directors’ Q&A in January showing the current financial year with a similar outturn to 22/23. The accounts just released are for the year inbetween.
And that ommission of the 23/24 numbers was pointed out by many at the time.
Now we know why.
I assume the omitted financial estimates were predicting increases in revenue to around £10m in order to rise to nearly £11m the following year.
A board that cannot, without an exceptional excuse, produce reliable financial forecasts part way through that current year is about the biggest failure of financial oversight the board can demonstrate to shareholders. That’s why management of a competently run business will never, never base profit forecasts on unreliable sources of revenue. It’s the guaranteed chop for those responsible if “hoped for” revenue does not materialise.
There are only 4 sources of revenue so should not require a genius to work out.
Methven paying himself and his mates massive salaries while running the club into the ground? Who could have predicted this!
The club is being run into the ground? We have the best and fittest squad in years, with a chance of promotion in April.
How is it being run in to the ground? Can you explain your thinking?
Those costs are covered by the owners. We're not borrowing money to cover debt. I'ts coming from the owners pockets?
It’s the losing millions and millions of pounds for me tbh.
I hope we go up as much as anyone, but I’m not sure where it leaves us if we don’t. If gambling on getting promoted this season was the goal at the start of the season then that looked very risky in August and even now with us in a very good position the play-offs are still a lottery.
I’m not sure how happy the owners will be to absorb those losses indefinitely - and in fact they’re clearly not, as they’ve already got rid of him!
It will leave the owners with a loss of their own money. They will have known that was the risk. This won't be a shock to any of them.
Who knows what the future holds. but people suggesting this is damning and unexpected honestly probably don't understand how businesses are run.
I agree with your point on the owners indefinite money pit being unlikely. But they will have known year 1 and 2 will be expensive.
They will have planned for non promotion this year and expected it next.
Methven paying himself and his mates massive salaries while running the club into the ground? Who could have predicted this!
Surely whatever he was paid was agreed by the owners though?
I'm not defending him as these are pretty terrible financial figures, but he hasn't sat there and thought 'yeah i'll pay myself £1m no one will notice'.
Am I reading this correctly, it’s saying that due to the publicised cyber attack, a load of financial records were completely wiped and couldn’t be retrieved?
Methven paying himself and his mates massive salaries while running the club into the ground? Who could have predicted this!
The club is being run into the ground? We have the best and fittest squad in years, with a chance of promotion in April.
How is it being run in to the ground? Can you explain your thinking?
Those costs are covered by the owners. We're not borrowing money to cover debt. I'ts coming from the owners pockets?
It’s the losing millions and millions of pounds for me tbh.
I hope we go up as much as anyone, but I’m not sure where it leaves us if we don’t. If gambling on getting promoted this season was the goal at the start of the season then that looked very risky in August and even now with us in a very good position the play-offs are still a lottery.
I’m not sure how happy the owners will be to absorb those losses indefinitely - and in fact they’re clearly not, as they’ve already got rid of him!
It will leave the owners with a loss of their own money. They will have known that was the risk. This won't be a shock to any of them.
Who knows what the future holds. but people suggesting this is damning and unexpected honestly probably don't understand how businesses are run.
I agree with your point on the owners indefinite money pit being unlikely. But they will have known year 1 and 2 will be expensive.
They will have planned for non promotion this year and expected it next.
Get all that. But it's the executive pay that's getting everyone's back up.
For instance. Your highly paid executive committee tell you what a great managerial acquisition Dean Holden will be. Months later he is shown the door for being well out of his depth. The whole process starts again and the top execs come back with Michael Appleton. We all know how that ended up. And these are just the decisions that are common knowledge. One can only imagine some of the unseen brain storming. Luckily for us, someone took the reigns off of the executive ' dream team' and we are seeing some shoots of recovery. But surely the money men are looking at parts of their wage bill and seeing that they really had their pants pulled down?
The bigger issue for me is that even if there were no executive salary payments and no severance pay offs, our losses would've still been 12m, which is a big increase on the 9.5m from the year before.
Methven paying himself and his mates massive salaries while running the club into the ground? Who could have predicted this!
Surely whatever he was paid was agreed by the owners though?
I'm not defending him as these are pretty terrible financial figures, but he hasn't sat there and thought 'yeah i'll pay myself £1m no one will notice'.
Yeah, I think the owners fell for it, like they did at Sunderland - I didn't say Methven was bad at doing what he does, I just don't think the thing he does well is running football clubs
The bigger issue for me is that even if there were no executive salary payments and no severance pay offs, our losses would've still been 12m, which is a big increase on the 9.5m from the year before.
How have we found a way to lose an extra 2.5m?
A lousy season on the pitch does make a big difference - lower gate revenue in the league, and no cup runs.
I think we had pretty a bloated squad last season too, with a fair amount of deadwood.
The bigger issue for me is that even if there were no executive salary payments and no severance pay offs, our losses would've still been 12m, which is a big increase on the 9.5m from the year before.
Comments
Those costs are covered by the owners. We're not borrowing money to cover debt. I'ts coming from the owners pockets?
2. £1.9M on the SMT seems a very large amount, but there were a lot of them; Methven, Warwick, Lenegan, Rodwell, Scott, Elliot and other non execs. The owners surely would have signed off our budget for this so whilst Methven maybe got away with an inflated salary the owners clearly thought it was value at the time they employed him.
3. Ransomware - it is one of the biggest "businesses" turnover wise, globally (sad but true). Loads of companies are affected by it, smaller companies (and with sub £10m turnover that is what we are); are less likely to have systems in place as a backup.
4. If the owners were really fooled by Methvens chat about reducing losses to £2m then "fools and their money are easily parted" readily springs to mind. I don't think they are fools.
Now we know why.
I am not against the owners, but to play devil's advocate a bit:
- they would have signed off the £1.9M on the SMT.
- if they "saw the numbers" from the draft financial accounts and "took action" I would suggest they are negligent as they should have noticed the £250K per week they were pumping in since acquiring us and noticed the worst league position in 80 years last season and acted sooner...
A company this size should have made backs ups/ have a disaster recovery plan
Obviously these figures are now 9 months out of date. Are managemenent accounts produced on a monthly basis (normal ptractice and I should hope so)? If they are, then why did it take so long so for the owners to take action?
If I was the Finance Director I would definately be looking for another job.
Mad, maybe. But negligent?
My point was that if the owners saw this set of accounts and were surprised by them enough to take action it would have been negligent.
Our owners are grown up business people, I don't expect these numbers to have come as a surprise to them, especially when they have been underwriting our losses throughout.
I would guess that Methven is more likely to have gone because this year's numbers 24/25 are not showing sufficient signs of improving.
He's the only one I can think of apart from Nathan that has earned their corn.
The senior exec team in place until recently did seem rather excessive in number for a 3rd division side, reflected in the wages.
There are only 4 sources of revenue so should not require a genius to work out.
Who knows what the future holds. but people suggesting this is damning and unexpected honestly probably don't understand how businesses are run.
I agree with your point on the owners indefinite money pit being unlikely. But they will have known year 1 and 2 will be expensive.
They will have planned for non promotion this year and expected it next.
I'm not defending him as these are pretty terrible financial figures, but he hasn't sat there and thought 'yeah i'll pay myself £1m no one will notice'.
For instance. Your highly paid executive committee tell you what a great managerial acquisition Dean Holden will be. Months later he is shown the door for being well out of his depth. The whole process starts again and the top execs come back with Michael Appleton. We all know how that ended up.
And these are just the decisions that are common knowledge. One can only imagine some of the unseen brain storming.
Luckily for us, someone took the reigns off of the executive ' dream team' and we are seeing some shoots of recovery.
But surely the money men are looking at parts of their wage bill and seeing that they really had their pants pulled down?
How have we found a way to lose an extra 2.5m?
Yeah, I think the owners fell for it, like they did at Sunderland - I didn't say Methven was bad at doing what he does, I just don't think the thing he does well is running football clubs
I think we had pretty a bloated squad last season too, with a fair amount of deadwood.
Poor attendances
Payoff of Kirk