Can't do it direct from bloody Eltham though, can ya?
Not being able to get down to Ebbsfleet in 20 minutes from my sister's adds two effing hours to a Eurostar run.
Still there is at last talk of a competitor to Eurostar with Ebbsfleet and Ashford maybe re-opening as a result.
Agree - losing Eurostar from Ebbsfleet is a terrible decision
It is also quite murky. Here are some things about that line that people may not know.
1. The actual line, known as HS1 (although the owners are trying to 're-brand' it, I can't be arsed to look up what their new name is) is entirely private. It is not controlled by Network Rail. It sub-contracts Network Rail to get the expertise that it doesn't have in-house. Why doesn't it have that expertise? Because it's a consortium, the biggest shareholder is South Korean pensioners.
2. Because it is completely private, it can set track access fees (which Eurostar and any rival must pay) as high as it likes, and nobody can do anything about it, other than scream. In recent months the screaming has finally paid off, and as a result some new companies are looking at it. But you won't see anything before 2030 earliest.
3. However that's only half of the problem. When the train reaches the Tunnel it is on someone else's property. That company is Getlink, in which the French government has a juicy stake. It has its own charges and also sets the "safety parameters". You can't run any old train through the Tunnel. It has to be high speed otherwise it slows down the others. That much is normal. But all kinds of other conditions have been set, it means that nearly all the TGV or ICE-type trains running around Europe are not permitted in the Tunnel. All this has helped preserve Eurostar's monopoly.
4. The French government also kept its stake in Eurostar. See how that works? Eurostar was merged with Thalys, which in turn is part of State-owned SNCF. It is that lot which refuses to bring back services to Ebbsfleet/Ashford. They argue that they are concentrating on "core services" to "maximise yield". They also have a point in that the British government during Covid shovelled money into ll the private operators running national services but refused to help Eurostar. These things are not easily forgotten.
Successive British governments held stakes in the Tunnel, HS1 and Eurostar. It sold its interests in all. The French government didn't. And here we are. Sky high prices and two stations sitting doing nothing.
This country has made stupid transport decisions all my life. All the more baffling when it also invented the commercial railway.
A very good overview of this particular problem and highlights something that I have tried to impress on people for a good while. I've worked in the rail Industry since 1974, it was privatised in 1988, but, I and my colleagues worked under Labour and Conservative governments, both starved the railways of cash and Margaret Thatcher believed it would a good idea to convert railway lines into roads. The point of my post is that, if you think that a Labour Government will be any different to previous governments you are wrong, I've never voted Conservative but when it comes down to this particular public service, whatever government is in power, they will take out more than they invest. You can add quite a few other privatisations and sell offs to the list, Dartford Crossing, The Water industry, the energy sector, right to buy, all were sold to give money to the treasury with no regulation put in place to govern investment and serve the people.
There's no evidence of that. Indeed during her time in office a lot of lines were electrified. BR itself tried to close the Settle and Carlisle line, but this was refused by the government (a young Portillo being the transport minister involved).
The key reason why Eurostar trains don't stop at Ashford and Ebbsfleet is Brexit, which makes any international stops massively more expensive to operate, with teams of border and custom officers required.
It's also made serving other international destinations in the EU much less attractive too, as you'd need all this security infrastructure, which also takes up a lot of space, just to serve a couple of London trains a day.
Woooah. So much to unpack in both your reply and the original post.
Bailey's right about Thatcher wanting to convert rail to road. The idea was put into her head by a poison dwarf called Sir Alfred Sherman. Look it up. She detested the railways because they had strong unions, and allegedly as a young woman she was on a train that got stuck in a snowdrift.
However @Baileyyour memory has failed. Thatcher did not privatise them. It is said that it was because none of the concepts brought to her convinced her that competition could exist and benefit customers. (it begs the question how they conned her about water, but that's another story) It was the Major govt, spearheaded by Cecil Parkinson. As for your view on the current politics and the railway, I warmly recommend you the Green Signals podcast. Nigel Harris goes back as long as you do with his railway career, and Richard Bowker has learnt a few lessons from the last 30 years.
It's not true that the extra cost of returning border and customs to those two stations would be "massively" expensive. At Ebbsfleet only one border guard was on duty at any one time, and their work finished at 14.00 after the last outbound train left. The previous CEO of Eurostar told a Parliamentary Commission that the Border Force had refused to staff those stations except by moving staff from St Pancras.
Your final point is also not quite right. It is the UK's refusal to join Schengen rather than Brexit that is the problem (albeit Brexit made it worse). The UK insisted that the UK Border had to start in Paris Nord or Bruxelles Midi stations. The Germans, understandably, are having none of that nonsense in Frankfurt or Cologne. Even so, it would be solvable because: - the necessity for security checks is highly contested. There are various tunnels in Europe as long as the Chunnel now, and no security is needed there. Nor the wonderful Oresund Bridge connecting Denmark and Sweden by both train and car, and effectively making a chunk of south Sweden part of an urban area with Copenhagen. - Border checks could be carried out on board a moving train. It happens between Prague and Berlin, and works fine.
Can't do it direct from bloody Eltham though, can ya?
Not being able to get down to Ebbsfleet in 20 minutes from my sister's adds two effing hours to a Eurostar run.
Still there is at last talk of a competitor to Eurostar with Ebbsfleet and Ashford maybe re-opening as a result.
Agree - losing Eurostar from Ebbsfleet is a terrible decision
It is also quite murky. Here are some things about that line that people may not know.
1. The actual line, known as HS1 (although the owners are trying to 're-brand' it, I can't be arsed to look up what their new name is) is entirely private. It is not controlled by Network Rail. It sub-contracts Network Rail to get the expertise that it doesn't have in-house. Why doesn't it have that expertise? Because it's a consortium, the biggest shareholder is South Korean pensioners.
2. Because it is completely private, it can set track access fees (which Eurostar and any rival must pay) as high as it likes, and nobody can do anything about it, other than scream. In recent months the screaming has finally paid off, and as a result some new companies are looking at it. But you won't see anything before 2030 earliest.
3. However that's only half of the problem. When the train reaches the Tunnel it is on someone else's property. That company is Getlink, in which the French government has a juicy stake. It has its own charges and also sets the "safety parameters". You can't run any old train through the Tunnel. It has to be high speed otherwise it slows down the others. That much is normal. But all kinds of other conditions have been set, it means that nearly all the TGV or ICE-type trains running around Europe are not permitted in the Tunnel. All this has helped preserve Eurostar's monopoly.
4. The French government also kept its stake in Eurostar. See how that works? Eurostar was merged with Thalys, which in turn is part of State-owned SNCF. It is that lot which refuses to bring back services to Ebbsfleet/Ashford. They argue that they are concentrating on "core services" to "maximise yield". They also have a point in that the British government during Covid shovelled money into ll the private operators running national services but refused to help Eurostar. These things are not easily forgotten.
Successive British governments held stakes in the Tunnel, HS1 and Eurostar. It sold its interests in all. The French government didn't. And here we are. Sky high prices and two stations sitting doing nothing.
This country has made stupid transport decisions all my life. All the more baffling when it also invented the commercial railway.
A very good overview of this particular problem and highlights something that I have tried to impress on people for a good while. I've worked in the rail Industry since 1974, it was privatised in 1988, but, I and my colleagues worked under Labour and Conservative governments, both starved the railways of cash and Margaret Thatcher believed it would a good idea to convert railway lines into roads. The point of my post is that, if you think that a Labour Government will be any different to previous governments you are wrong, I've never voted Conservative but when it comes down to this particular public service, whatever government is in power, they will take out more than they invest. You can add quite a few other privatisations and sell offs to the list, Dartford Crossing, The Water industry, the energy sector, right to buy, all were sold to give money to the treasury with no regulation put in place to govern investment and serve the people.
There's no evidence of that. Indeed during her time in office a lot of lines were electrified. BR itself tried to close the Settle and Carlisle line, but this was refused by the government (a young Portillo being the transport minister involved).
The key reason why Eurostar trains don't stop at Ashford and Ebbsfleet is Brexit, which makes any international stops massively more expensive to operate, with teams of border and custom officers required.
It's also made serving other international destinations in the EU much less attractive too, as you'd need all this security infrastructure, which also takes up a lot of space, just to serve a couple of London trains a day.
Woooah. So much to unpack in both your reply and the original post.
Bailey's right about Thatcher wanting to convert rail to road. The idea was put into her head by a poison dwarf called Sir Alfred Sherman. Look it up. She detested the railways because they had strong unions, and allegedly as a young woman she was on a train that got stuck in a snowdrift.
However @Baileyyour memory has failed. Thatcher did not privatise them. It is said that it was because none of the concepts brought to her convinced her that competition could exist and benefit customers. (it begs the question how they conned her about water, but that's another story) It was the Major govt, spearheaded by Cecil Parkinson. As for your view on the current politics and the railway, I warmly recommend you the Green Signals podcast. Nigel Harris goes back as long as you do with his railway career, and Richard Bowker has learnt a few lessons from the last 30 years.
It's not true that the extra cost of returning border and customs to those two stations would be "massively" expensive. At Ebbsfleet only one border guard was on duty at any one time, and their work finished at 14.00 after the last outbound train left. The previous CEO of Eurostar told a Parliamentary Commission that the Border Force had refused to staff those stations except by moving staff from St Pancras.
Your final point is also not quite right. It is the UK's refusal to join Schengen rather than Brexit that is the problem (albeit Brexit made it worse). The UK insisted that the UK Border had to start in Paris Nord or Bruxelles Midi stations. The Germans, understandably, are having none of that nonsense in Frankfurt or Cologne. Even so, it would be solvable because: - the necessity for security checks is highly contested. There are various tunnels in Europe as long as the Chunnel now, and no security is needed there. Nor the wonderful Oresund Bridge connecting Denmark and Sweden by both train and car, and effectively making a chunk of south Sweden part of an urban area with Copenhagen. - Border checks could be carried out on board a moving train. It happens between Prague and Berlin, and works fine.
Sherman might have pushed for closing the railways, but even if Thatcher might have liked it in theory, clearly didn't think it was that practical or realistic an idea as it never happened, and never was taken forward in any way. Whereas the Labour government of the 60s, despite promising to stop the closures, continued the Beeching closures, including ones which weren't even recommended for closure by Beeching.
It's the UK government which is insisting on having security checks at stations, including UK staff in EU stations and French staff at St Pancras. At the moment we have the slightly farcical situation of getting 2 passport checks within 20 seconds at St Pancras, but that is something that would need to be replicated by Ebbsfleet and Ashford, along with customs. And that won't happen without a frequent service.
The current Labour government has no plans to change any of this.
Can't do it direct from bloody Eltham though, can ya?
Not being able to get down to Ebbsfleet in 20 minutes from my sister's adds two effing hours to a Eurostar run.
Still there is at last talk of a competitor to Eurostar with Ebbsfleet and Ashford maybe re-opening as a result.
Agree - losing Eurostar from Ebbsfleet is a terrible decision
It is also quite murky. Here are some things about that line that people may not know.
1. The actual line, known as HS1 (although the owners are trying to 're-brand' it, I can't be arsed to look up what their new name is) is entirely private. It is not controlled by Network Rail. It sub-contracts Network Rail to get the expertise that it doesn't have in-house. Why doesn't it have that expertise? Because it's a consortium, the biggest shareholder is South Korean pensioners.
2. Because it is completely private, it can set track access fees (which Eurostar and any rival must pay) as high as it likes, and nobody can do anything about it, other than scream. In recent months the screaming has finally paid off, and as a result some new companies are looking at it. But you won't see anything before 2030 earliest.
3. However that's only half of the problem. When the train reaches the Tunnel it is on someone else's property. That company is Getlink, in which the French government has a juicy stake. It has its own charges and also sets the "safety parameters". You can't run any old train through the Tunnel. It has to be high speed otherwise it slows down the others. That much is normal. But all kinds of other conditions have been set, it means that nearly all the TGV or ICE-type trains running around Europe are not permitted in the Tunnel. All this has helped preserve Eurostar's monopoly.
4. The French government also kept its stake in Eurostar. See how that works? Eurostar was merged with Thalys, which in turn is part of State-owned SNCF. It is that lot which refuses to bring back services to Ebbsfleet/Ashford. They argue that they are concentrating on "core services" to "maximise yield". They also have a point in that the British government during Covid shovelled money into ll the private operators running national services but refused to help Eurostar. These things are not easily forgotten.
Successive British governments held stakes in the Tunnel, HS1 and Eurostar. It sold its interests in all. The French government didn't. And here we are. Sky high prices and two stations sitting doing nothing.
This country has made stupid transport decisions all my life. All the more baffling when it also invented the commercial railway.
A very good overview of this particular problem and highlights something that I have tried to impress on people for a good while. I've worked in the rail Industry since 1974, it was privatised in 1988, but, I and my colleagues worked under Labour and Conservative governments, both starved the railways of cash and Margaret Thatcher believed it would a good idea to convert railway lines into roads. The point of my post is that, if you think that a Labour Government will be any different to previous governments you are wrong, I've never voted Conservative but when it comes down to this particular public service, whatever government is in power, they will take out more than they invest. You can add quite a few other privatisations and sell offs to the list, Dartford Crossing, The Water industry, the energy sector, right to buy, all were sold to give money to the treasury with no regulation put in place to govern investment and serve the people.
There's no evidence of that. Indeed during her time in office a lot of lines were electrified. BR itself tried to close the Settle and Carlisle line, but this was refused by the government (a young Portillo being the transport minister involved).
The key reason why Eurostar trains don't stop at Ashford and Ebbsfleet is Brexit, which makes any international stops massively more expensive to operate, with teams of border and custom officers required.
It's also made serving other international destinations in the EU much less attractive too, as you'd need all this security infrastructure, which also takes up a lot of space, just to serve a couple of London trains a day.
Woooah. So much to unpack in both your reply and the original post.
Bailey's right about Thatcher wanting to convert rail to road. The idea was put into her head by a poison dwarf called Sir Alfred Sherman. Look it up. She detested the railways because they had strong unions, and allegedly as a young woman she was on a train that got stuck in a snowdrift.
However @Baileyyour memory has failed. Thatcher did not privatise them. It is said that it was because none of the concepts brought to her convinced her that competition could exist and benefit customers. (it begs the question how they conned her about water, but that's another story) It was the Major govt, spearheaded by Cecil Parkinson. As for your view on the current politics and the railway, I warmly recommend you the Green Signals podcast. Nigel Harris goes back as long as you do with his railway career, and Richard Bowker has learnt a few lessons from the last 30 years.
It's not true that the extra cost of returning border and customs to those two stations would be "massively" expensive. At Ebbsfleet only one border guard was on duty at any one time, and their work finished at 14.00 after the last outbound train left. The previous CEO of Eurostar told a Parliamentary Commission that the Border Force had refused to staff those stations except by moving staff from St Pancras.
Your final point is also not quite right. It is the UK's refusal to join Schengen rather than Brexit that is the problem (albeit Brexit made it worse). The UK insisted that the UK Border had to start in Paris Nord or Bruxelles Midi stations. The Germans, understandably, are having none of that nonsense in Frankfurt or Cologne. Even so, it would be solvable because: - the necessity for security checks is highly contested. There are various tunnels in Europe as long as the Chunnel now, and no security is needed there. Nor the wonderful Oresund Bridge connecting Denmark and Sweden by both train and car, and effectively making a chunk of south Sweden part of an urban area with Copenhagen. - Border checks could be carried out on board a moving train. It happens between Prague and Berlin, and works fine.
Sherman might have pushed for closing the railways, but even if Thatcher might have liked it in theory, clearly didn't think it was that practical or realistic an idea as it never happened, and never was taken forward in any way. Whereas the Labour government of the 60s, despite promising to stop the closures, continued the Beeching closures, including ones which weren't even recommended for closure by Beeching.
It's the UK government which is insisting on having security checks at stations, including UK staff in EU stations and French staff at St Pancras. At the moment we have the slightly farcical situation of getting 2 passport checks within 20 seconds at St Pancras, but that is something that would need to be replicated by Ebbsfleet and Ashford, along with customs. And that won't happen without a frequent service.
The current Labour government has no plans to change any of this.
Yes I know the UK government at the time Eurostar launched, insisted on the current arrangements. Because we refused to join Schengen. So there were always two daft passport checks at St Pancras. And at Ebbsfleet and Ashford. So all we are asking for is to bring them back at those stations. Whatever else, it is notexpensive. However why are you trying to pin this on the current Labour government, which has been in power, how many months? Do you think it can argue it has a mandate to join Schengen? With a population still full of so many muppets that Farage is polling at 25%?
I must admit that I'm surprised you can travel from St Pancreas to Charlton. Maybe I just haven't been concentrating, maybe the map makers are partly to blame. An interesting (imo) article below details the envy between lines.
Quite amusing.
Thameslink’s dashed, hollow line, weaves and ducks through Tube lines like a striker zigzagging through an entire defence. It’s suburban line camouflage, lost in the thicket of Central London lines. Which may well have been the intention.
Comments
Bailey's right about Thatcher wanting to convert rail to road. The idea was put into her head by a poison dwarf called Sir Alfred Sherman. Look it up. She detested the railways because they had strong unions, and allegedly as a young woman she was on a train that got stuck in a snowdrift.
However @Baileyyour memory has failed. Thatcher did not privatise them. It is said that it was because none of the concepts brought to her convinced her that competition could exist and benefit customers. (it begs the question how they conned her about water, but that's another story) It was the Major govt, spearheaded by Cecil Parkinson. As for your view on the current politics and the railway, I warmly recommend you the Green Signals podcast. Nigel Harris goes back as long as you do with his railway career, and Richard Bowker has learnt a few lessons from the last 30 years.
It's not true that the extra cost of returning border and customs to those two stations would be "massively" expensive. At Ebbsfleet only one border guard was on duty at any one time, and their work finished at 14.00 after the last outbound train left. The previous CEO of Eurostar told a Parliamentary Commission that the Border Force had refused to staff those stations except by moving staff from St Pancras.
Your final point is also not quite right. It is the UK's refusal to join Schengen rather than Brexit that is the problem (albeit Brexit made it worse). The UK insisted that the UK Border had to start in Paris Nord or Bruxelles Midi stations. The Germans, understandably, are having none of that nonsense in Frankfurt or Cologne. Even so, it would be solvable because:
- the necessity for security checks is highly contested. There are various tunnels in Europe as long as the Chunnel now, and no security is needed there. Nor the wonderful Oresund Bridge connecting Denmark and Sweden by both train and car, and effectively making a chunk of south Sweden part of an urban area with Copenhagen.
- Border checks could be carried out on board a moving train. It happens between Prague and Berlin, and works fine.
It's the UK government which is insisting on having security checks at stations, including UK staff in EU stations and French staff at St Pancras. At the moment we have the slightly farcical situation of getting 2 passport checks within 20 seconds at St Pancras, but that is something that would need to be replicated by Ebbsfleet and Ashford, along with customs. And that won't happen without a frequent service.
The current Labour government has no plans to change any of this.
Quite amusing.
Thameslink’s dashed, hollow line, weaves and ducks through Tube lines like a striker zigzagging through an entire defence. It’s suburban line camouflage, lost in the thicket of Central London lines. Which may well have been the intention.
https://www.londonreconnections.com/2022/elizabeth-line-envy-thameslink-deserves-some-map-respect/