So we are averaging more home fans than Millwall when they are on the brink of the prem and we have only been good for half a season 👍
I’m with Airman on this, re the average being very distorted. Think back to some of the announced attendances & what you actually saw with your eyes. And that wasn’t just counting missing season ticket holders. It was a huge difference on occasions. I very much doubt the real bums on seats + season ticket holders is close to that number reported.
For comparisons against the other 22 clubs (obviously excluding Wrexham themselves), we would need to see the averages of others without the Wrexham game. If the attendance for Wrexham was 10K more than our average, taking out the Wrexham would reduce our average by about 500.
So we are averaging more home fans than Millwall when they are on the brink of the prem and we have only been good for half a season 👍
I’m with Airman on this, re the average being very distorted. Think back to some of the announced attendances & what you actually saw with your eyes. And that wasn’t just counting missing season ticket holders. It was a huge difference on occasions. I very much doubt the real bums on seats + season ticket holders is close to that number reported.
Still think it's probably the same for all clubs how highly distorted they are.
I think it feels worse with us because this all started to get highlighted during the Roland years when you could see from all the boycotting the real numbers attending were well down on actual attendances and became a thing that's continued to be highlighted.
Our figures are meaningless as they are simply not accurate and padded with freebies. Whether all other clubs do the same I don’t know, but I doubt to the extent of difference between our announced figures and attending and purchasing spectators.
All clubs will have some freebies. And I think all clubs include season ticket holders who don't turn up, so I don't think our numbers are that distorted when compared to other clubs.
I think they are.
Yes they are. We wouldn’t give away that many comps because we just don’t have that many spare seats. Even if we’re only getting 15k home fans at a game there will only be a spare couple of thousand seats in the home ends tops. Probably less.
As mentioned Charlton would have over 12k empty home seats this season and are well known to give out a hell of a lot of comps because of it. (Wasn’t there a load of freebies sitting on a bar in a local pub somewhere a couple of seasons ago? )
We had 11 sell outs last season. We haven’t done quite as well this season but we still not in a position to give out thousands of comps every game.
Our figures are meaningless as they are simply not accurate and padded with freebies. Whether all other clubs do the same I don’t know, but I doubt to the extent of difference between our announced figures and attending and purchasing spectators.
All clubs will have some freebies. And I think all clubs include season ticket holders who don't turn up, so I don't think our numbers are that distorted when compared to other clubs.
I think they are.
Yes they are. We wouldn’t give away that many comps because we just don’t have that many spare seats. Even if we’re only getting 15k home fans at a game there will only be a spare couple of thousand seats in the home ends tops. Probably less.
As mentioned Charlton would have over 12k empty home seats this season and are well known to give out a hell of a lot of comps because of it. (Wasn’t there a load of freebies sitting on a bar in a local pub somewhere a couple of seasons ago? )
We had 11 sell outs last season. We haven’t done quite as well this season but we still not in a position to give out thousands of comps every game.
But you also need to consider that if our ground was as small as yours, we would also have less empty seats 😜
How much would actually match attendance be I wonder, without ST absences and comps. Obviously comps is known by the club but ST absence can only be speculated on. Certainly during the seasons down time in Autumn there appeared a disparity between announced attendance and subjective view from thr ground.
As it would be at every club as they all count ST abscences.
The club do know the actual "turnstile" count as they have to for safety reasons.
15k mean average isn't great but neither is it terrible for a club that has been in league one for so long, playing poorly early on and with generally poor away support.
Still a lot of work to do regardless of what division we are in.
How much would actually match attendance be I wonder, without ST absences and comps. Obviously comps is known by the club but ST absence can only be speculated on. Certainly during the seasons down time in Autumn there appeared a disparity between announced attendance and subjective view from thr ground.
As it would be at every club as they all count ST abscences.
The club do know the actual "turnstile" count as they have to for safety reasons.
15k mean average isn't great but neither is it terrible for a club that has been in league one for so long, playing poorly early on and with generally poor away support.
Still a lot of work to do regardless of what division we are in.
Target 20k anyone?
They do and they don’t. There is a figure based on the turnstile count but it won’t be 100% accurate either as there are still assumptions used on top of that. But it will be a lot more accurate than the announced.
As a rule of thumb you can probably knock a good 2,000 per match off the official attendance. The shortfall will go up and down depending on circumstances.
I don’t think we’re operating at peak freebie any more and it is obvious crowds are up recently. Other significant factors in the differential are cheap season tickets and the number of junior concessions. You can’t assume that people buying a season ticket intend to use it every game.
How much would actually match attendance be I wonder, without ST absences and comps. Obviously comps is known by the club but ST absence can only be speculated on. Certainly during the seasons down time in Autumn there appeared a disparity between announced attendance and subjective view from thr ground.
As it would be at every club as they all count ST abscences.
The club do know the actual "turnstile" count as they have to for safety reasons.
15k mean average isn't great but neither is it terrible for a club that has been in league one for so long, playing poorly early on and with generally poor away support.
Still a lot of work to do regardless of what division we are in.
Target 20k anyone?
Last couple of games you could push the turnstiles in the family stand and walk straight through without a ticket as they are broken. No one there checking.
Our season tickets should be much, much cheaper imo. £650 for our most expensive is a robbery. On par with championship clubs. Even if we were in the championship I'd expect them to be lower as an incentive to try and pack the place, half empty most games.
I know people can say London premium etc but we are also the 2nd (soon to be 3rd) worst performing London professional club with a lot of competition. Just seems a bit short sighted to me, especially when the club goes on about community spirit etc.
I'll get mine as per but they're just fortunate it's a lifestyle for a lot of us, as its not good value for money nowadays.
Fair play to Bolton, very impressive they've shipped 21k already, crazy numbers.
Our season tickets should be much, much cheaper imo. £650 for our most expensive is a robbery. On par with championship clubs. Even if we were in the championship I'd expect them to be lower as an incentive to try and pack the place, half empty most games.
I know people can say London premium etc but we are also the 2nd (soon to be 3rd) worst performing London professional club with a lot of competition. Just seems a bit short sighted to me, especially when the club goes on about community spirit etc.
I'll get mine as per but they're just fortunate it's a lifestyle for a lot of us, as its not good value for money nowadays.
Fair play to Bolton, very impressive they've shipped 21k already, crazy numbers.
£650 is a silly price in L1 but to be honest there is no pressure on anyone to pay that. There are plenty of good seats at £460, which isn’t unreasonable.
Our season tickets should be much, much cheaper imo. £650 for our most expensive is a robbery. On par with championship clubs. Even if we were in the championship I'd expect them to be lower as an incentive to try and pack the place, half empty most games.
I know people can say London premium etc but we are also the 2nd (soon to be 3rd) worst performing London professional club with a lot of competition. Just seems a bit short sighted to me, especially when the club goes on about community spirit etc.
I'll get mine as per but they're just fortunate it's a lifestyle for a lot of us, as its not good value for money nowadays.
Fair play to Bolton, very impressive they've shipped 21k already, crazy numbers.
£650 is a silly price in L1 but to be honest there is no pressure on anyone to pay that. There are plenty of good seats at £460, which isn’t unreasonable.
£460 is decent and falls into the twenty is plenty territory, but I still feel it could be a tad cheaper.
Suppose the £650 doesn't matter until we start filling the place which would probably take premier league footie anyway.
Our season tickets should be much, much cheaper imo. £650 for our most expensive is a robbery. On par with championship clubs. Even if we were in the championship I'd expect them to be lower as an incentive to try and pack the place, half empty most games.
I know people can say London premium etc but we are also the 2nd (soon to be 3rd) worst performing London professional club with a lot of competition. Just seems a bit short sighted to me, especially when the club goes on about community spirit etc.
I'll get mine as per but they're just fortunate it's a lifestyle for a lot of us, as its not good value for money nowadays.
Fair play to Bolton, very impressive they've shipped 21k already, crazy numbers.
That is steep. Out most expensive ST’s are £515. If you wait until after the early bird offer they’re about £590.
The question is, if we halved the season ticket price would we sell twice as many. I'm sure we'd sell some more and possibly add a bit more in retail sales but would it add up to the same level of income. I realise you can't know unless you do it but it could be a big financial risk.
If we did a Bradford style ticket promotion and did season tickets for say £200 all over the ground, would we sell out?
The fact that the true average attendance this season of actual home fans is probably 11-12,000, due to 2,000 odd unused comps suggests not.
London and the southeast is a tougher gig than likes of Bradford. Lots of alternatives for people to do instead of watching third division footballers.
The question is, if we halved the season ticket price would we sell twice as many. I'm sure we'd sell some more and possibly add a bit more in retail sales but would it add up to the same level of income. I realise you can't know unless you do it but it could be a big financial risk.
Doesn't have to be halved, but I'm sure a 20% reduction would see improvements (especially if catering etc was in-house and we benefited from those profits)
And with cheap season tickets, you'd get even more "pick and choose" holders, skipping the less attractive games. I imagine the percentage of Bradford ST holders attending every game is quite low.
I wonder if there's much of a correlation between attendance (ticket price) and 'other match day revenue' and if there's a kick in overall revenue if ticket prices are lowered and we get more people through the gates regularly? Ditto any correlation between properly targeted comps and converting comps into regular match-day revenue?
There's also quite a lot to be said for more bums on seats and bigging up the atmosphere and the 12th man effect....... at least that's one of the things I've noticed NJ and the players have been saying recently......
And with cheap season tickets, you'd get even more "pick and choose" holders, skipping the less attractive games. I imagine the percentage of Bradford ST holders attending every game is quite low.
So ? Really not an issue unless you have a full house each week and means you lose walkups. Do OAPs buy a ST just because it's cheap (should still be cheaper) and cherry pick games? At our level there's really not a lot to cherry pick lol 😆
And with cheap season tickets, you'd get even more "pick and choose" holders, skipping the less attractive games. I imagine the percentage of Bradford ST holders attending every game is quite low.
So ? Really not an issue unless you have a full house each week and means you lose walkups. Do OAPs buy a ST just because it's cheap (should still be cheaper) and cherry pick games? At our level there's really not a lot to cherry pick lol 😆
Its not really about cherry picking its about availability. People have other commitments and other things to do with their weekends, even more so since COVID. I have in the past bought a season ticket knowing that I wouldn't be able to attend a number of games but that as long as I attended something like 12/13 I would save money compared to buying game by game. I think its something to be encouraged in some respects because since I let my season ticket lapse I attend less now as even when I am free its been hard to justify the price of a match ticket, especially against the quality of football over the last few years and when living in a half finished renovation.
And with cheap season tickets, you'd get even more "pick and choose" holders, skipping the less attractive games. I imagine the percentage of Bradford ST holders attending every game is quite low.
So ? Really not an issue unless you have a full house each week and means you lose walkups. Do OAPs buy a ST just because it's cheap (should still be cheaper) and cherry pick games? At our level there's really not a lot to cherry pick lol 😆
Its not really about cherry picking its about availability. People have other commitments and other things to do with their weekends, even more so since COVID. I have in the past bought a season ticket knowing that I wouldn't be able to attend a number of games but that as long as I attended something like 12/13 I would save money compared to buying game by game. I think its something to be encouraged in some respects because since I let my season ticket lapse I attend less now as even when I am free its been hard to justify the price of a match ticket, especially against the quality of football over the last few years and when living in a half finished renovation.
Absolutely agree about routines, if you've paid you'll probably go more for sure as there's already a commitment.
I probably spend £100 + ticket a game when I go, so maybe taking a little hit on a ticket price could work in the clubs favour financially.
I would be very cautious about assuming the benefit from more people spending on other things outweighs the ticket revenue. Much of the revenue from “other” is eaten up by cost of sales (and VAT). The point about ticket revenue is that after VAT there is almost no extra cost.
You could spend £50 on beer and £25 on your ticket and the benefit to the club would still be greater from the ticket, even though you would see the beer as the greater outlay.
If we did a Bradford style ticket promotion and did season tickets for say £200 all over the ground, would we sell out?
I’ve been banging on about pricing season tickets to sell and basically not exclude or deter fans since the Net Addicks days but I’ll admit its not about simply making them too cheap so that they can be thrown in a drawer somewhere and not turn up. There has to be a reason that makes fans want to come along to the Valley. A sustained promotion run starting in August would do it but there’s a lot more to going to a game that gets enough of us off our arses mid winter and when the team is, basically, shit and that’s there is a great social side to it. Sadly, the club often seems to go out of its way to kill that off with the catering, particularly the long queues on a matchday when the ground is half empty and more so when there’s a decent sized crowd in the ground and lots of fans/potential fans whose day out is going to be spoilt when they realise that no matter how thirsty and hungry they are chances are they’re not likely to get served, which even if they persevere and do get served may well mean they will be missing part of the game. The club is expecting a bumper crown this Saturday. A bit of sunshine will make it ten times worse and all those new/returning fans are going to be stuck in a long and slow queue for refreshments, feel that it’s just a shit show and never return.
I would be very cautious about assuming the benefit from more people spending on other things outweighs the ticket revenue. Much of the revenue from “other” is eaten up by cost of sales (and VAT). The point about ticket revenue is that after VAT there is almost no extra cost.
Can we charge £30 a ticket and give away beer and merch for free then ?
Comments
I think it feels worse with us because this all started to get highlighted during the Roland years when you could see from all the boycotting the real numbers attending were well down on actual attendances and became a thing that's continued to be highlighted.
The club do know the actual "turnstile" count as they have to for safety reasons.
15k mean average isn't great but neither is it terrible for a club that has been in league one for so long, playing poorly early on and with generally poor away support.
Still a lot of work to do regardless of what division we are in.
Target 20k anyone?
I don’t think we’re operating at peak freebie any more and it is obvious crowds are up recently. Other significant factors in the differential are cheap season tickets and the number of junior concessions. You can’t assume that people buying a season ticket intend to use it every game.
I know people can say London premium etc but we are also the 2nd (soon to be 3rd) worst performing London professional club with a lot of competition. Just seems a bit short sighted to me, especially when the club goes on about community spirit etc.
I'll get mine as per but they're just fortunate it's a lifestyle for a lot of us, as its not good value for money nowadays.
Fair play to Bolton, very impressive they've shipped 21k already, crazy numbers.
Suppose the £650 doesn't matter until we start filling the place which would probably take premier league footie anyway.
Bizarre, it's almost as if lower prices attract more fans
I'm sure we'd sell some more and possibly add a bit more in retail sales but would it add up to the same level of income.
I realise you can't know unless you do it but it could be a big financial risk.
London and the southeast is a tougher gig than likes of Bradford. Lots of alternatives for people to do instead of watching third division footballers.
Ditto any correlation between properly targeted comps and converting comps into regular match-day revenue?
There's also quite a lot to be said for more bums on seats and bigging up the atmosphere and the 12th man effect....... at least that's one of the things I've noticed NJ and the players have been saying recently......
I probably spend £100 + ticket a game when I go, so maybe taking a little hit on a ticket price could work in the clubs favour financially.
You could spend £50 on beer and £25 on your ticket and the benefit to the club would still be greater from the ticket, even though you would see the beer as the greater outlay.
I’ve been banging on about pricing season tickets to sell and basically not exclude or deter fans since the Net Addicks days but I’ll admit its not about simply making them too cheap so that they can be thrown in a drawer somewhere and not turn up. There has to be a reason that makes fans want to come along to the Valley. A sustained promotion run starting in August would do it but there’s a lot more to going to a game that gets enough of us off our arses mid winter and when the team is, basically, shit and that’s there is a great social side to it. Sadly, the club often seems to go out of its way to kill that off with the catering, particularly the long queues on a matchday when the ground is half empty and more so when there’s a decent sized crowd in the ground and lots of fans/potential fans whose day out is going to be spoilt when they realise that no matter how thirsty and hungry they are chances are they’re not likely to get served, which even if they persevere and do get served may well mean they will be missing part of the game. The club is expecting a bumper crown this Saturday. A bit of sunshine will make it ten times worse and all those new/returning fans are going to be stuck in a long and slow queue for refreshments, feel that it’s just a shit show and never return.