Awful and scary as you don’t expect the best planes with good airlines to have these sort of crashes in this day and age
RIP to the victims and families I’m not an aviation expert unlike a lot of people on twatter but the plane didn’t get any lift at all did it get to the right speed for take off considering the weight of the plane, im sure we will find out when the black box is found
This, and hopefully the CVR. I dont envy those whose job it is to listen to those.
Regards of flaps being incorrect, surely there would be on board warning systems to let pilots know the flaps are in the wrong position?
Shall avoid speculating but will break down briefly two factors here. Firstly, in the flight deck you run off electronic checklist displays, flap setting is part of the before taxi checklist and you'll have to have it ticked before you can move onto the next checklist. The second factor is that you'll get a Take Off Config aural and visual alert if they tried to take off with the flaps set incorrectly.
The flaps at position 1 on the 787s aren't that noticeable, especially in a video that's 360p quality. The fact the media are jumping on this assumption is frustrating to say the least. What none of them seem to notice in the video of the take off is the big puff of smoke coming from the port side engine on take off. Lose one of those before you reach V2 (the speed deemed safe to climb) and you end up stalling very quickly.
It seems the tail section of the aircraft is in tact so they won't struggle to locate the black boxes, hopefully this will prove quickly that it wasn't pilot error and the media shouldn't be pointing fingers already.
I don't work in air crash sector anymore but as said above 787s are big boys! Correct flap usage on takeoff is essential especially if it's anywhere near MTOW, flight characteristics from the video is Indicative of not having enough lift and it does appear flaps are in either position 1 or 0
Regards of flaps being incorrect, surely there would be on board warning systems to let pilots know the flaps are in the wrong position?
Shall avoid speculating but will break down briefly two factors here. Firstly, in the flight deck you run off electronic checklist displays, flap setting is part of the before taxi checklist and you'll have to have it ticked before you can move onto the next checklist. The second factor is that you'll get a Take Off Config aural and visual alert if they tried to take off with the flaps set incorrectly.
The flaps at position 1 on the 787s aren't that noticeable, especially in a video that's 360p quality. The fact the media are jumping on this assumption is frustrating to say the least. What none of them seem to notice in the video of the take off is the big puff of smoke coming from the port side engine on take off. Lose one of those before you reach V2 (the speed deemed safe to climb) and you end up stalling very quickly.
It seems the tail section of the aircraft is in tact so they won't struggle to locate the black boxes, hopefully this will prove quickly that it wasn't pilot error and the media shouldn't be pointing fingers already.
Thanks for the breakdown. Can't even fathom what the families are dealing with
I don't work in air crash sector anymore but as said above 787s are big boys! Correct flap usage on takeoff is essential especially if it's anywhere near MTOW, flight characteristics from the video is Indicative of not having enough lift and it does appear flaps are in either position 1 or 0
Won't be at MTOW for India, a -8 can almost do double the range of that journey. The whole flaps line is nonsense though, if you look at a 787 with Flaps 1 config then you barely notice they're deployed, in fact you can only really tell by the slats. Flaps 5 is a touch more noticeable but with that poor quality video that's out there, I wouldn't at all assume this is the case of pilot error. There's just too many fail safes to prevent a take-off without being configured properly.
It's a sad day, and a reminder to why the aviation industry needs the highest level of safety standards possible to prevent such accidents from happening again
I don't work in air crash sector anymore but as said above 787s are big boys! Correct flap usage on takeoff is essential especially if it's anywhere near MTOW, flight characteristics from the video is Indicative of not having enough lift and it does appear flaps are in either position 1 or 0
Won't be at MTOW for India, a -8 can almost do double the range of that journey. The whole flaps line is nonsense though, if you look at a 787 with Flaps 1 config then you barely notice they're deployed, in fact you can only really tell by the slats. Flaps 5 is a touch more noticeable but with that poor quality video that's out there, I wouldn't at all assume this is the case of pilot error. There's just too many fail safes to prevent a take-off without being configured properly.
It's a sad day, and a reminder to why the aviation industry needs the highest level of safety standards possible to prevent such accidents from happening again
To clarify I was trying to put it into perspective just how much lift needs to be generated in a worst case scenario in regards to weight. Like you say very unlikely to be MTOW. You are correct about the noticeability of the flaps though I did my best attempt with the low quality video and me zooming in it work it out and it looks as though little to none is present but that's just my initial take without seeing better footage.
A modern 787 too - i'm sure we'll all flown on those.
There is some speculation on the internet which has now reached the BBC. Why were the wheels down, the flaps retracted, and the nose pointing so high up? Not surprising the plane stalled and fell from the sky.
Wheels would either have been redeployed when it couldn't achieve height or never were up from take off.
Nose was pointing high probably in a desperate attempt to stop the plane crashing. They likely tried to re-engage the throttle too.
No evidence of a stall as yet, though could have been the issue.
To clarify I was trying to put it into perspective just how much lift needs to be generated in a worst case scenario in regards to weight. Like you say very unlikely to be MTOW. You are correct about the noticeability of the flaps though I did my best attempt with the low quality video and me zooming in it work it out and it looks as though little to none is present but that's just my initial take without seeing better footage.
Just heard the audio from that first video, you can hear the RAT clearly so they must have lost something for sure for it to be deployed automatically. I've been told that there was also a mayday call immediately after take off.
Wheels would either have been redeployed when it couldn't achieve height or never were up from take off.
Nose was pointing high probably in a desperate attempt to stop the plane crashing. They likely tried to re-engage the throttle too.
No evidence of a stall as yet, though could have been the issue.
There's a Boeing-ism with the 787s that Electronic Brake Actuators lock out and prevent the landing gear from being raised if you don't bring them up within 20 seconds of wheels off the ground, once this lockout kicks in you can't raise the gear for 2 minutes. Don't actually know why this is even a feature to be honest but it's a pain in the backside.
Sadly though, you can see in the final moments that the aircraft did stall
To clarify I was trying to put it into perspective just how much lift needs to be generated in a worst case scenario in regards to weight. Like you say very unlikely to be MTOW. You are correct about the noticeability of the flaps though I did my best attempt with the low quality video and me zooming in it work it out and it looks as though little to none is present but that's just my initial take without seeing better footage.
Just heard the audio from that first video, you can hear the RAT clearly so they must have lost something for sure for it to be deployed automatically. I've been told that there was also a mayday call immediately after take off.
Wheels would either have been redeployed when it couldn't achieve height or never were up from take off.
Nose was pointing high probably in a desperate attempt to stop the plane crashing. They likely tried to re-engage the throttle too.
No evidence of a stall as yet, though could have been the issue.
There's a Boeing-ism with the 787s that Electronic Brake Actuators lock out and prevent the landing gear from being raised if you don't bring them up within 20 seconds of wheels off the ground, once this lockout kicks in you can't raise the gear for 2 minutes. Don't actually know why this is even a feature to be honest but it's a pain in the backside.
Sadly though, you can see in the final moments that the aircraft did stall
Thanks for sharing your thoughts. Absolutely fascinating.
I can only assume you're a pilot? What do you fly?
Surviving a plane crash is a miracle, but surviving it when every single other person died and being ok to walk to an ambulance is absolutely unbelievable.
Might also lead to some mental health issues or PTSD.
Surviving a plane crash is a miracle, but surviving it when every single other person died and being ok to walk to an ambulance is absolutely unbelievable.
Might also lead to some mental health issues or PTSD.
He lost his brother on the flight. He will undoubtedly suffer some reaction.
Survivors guilt will be horrendous for him. He'll feel so much pressure to do soemthing with his life and find a purpose. Hope he's properly looked after with therapy and support for the rest of his life.
Surviving a plane crash is a miracle, but surviving it when every single other person died and being ok to walk to an ambulance is absolutely unbelievable.
Might also lead to some mental health issues or PTSD.
Survivors guilt will be incredible. Poor guy is going to be in therapy probably forever.
I don't work in air crash sector anymore but as said above 787s are big boys! Correct flap usage on takeoff is essential especially if it's anywhere near MTOW, flight characteristics from the video is Indicative of not having enough lift and it does appear flaps are in either position 1 or 0
The flight deck were experienced so in all likelihood it probably wasn’t down to pilot error. Planes fly with a list of tech issues all the time, or at least used to, and this one had flown in, so there’s the possibility that something had been fixed/looked at when it was on the ground waiting for the change around and the issue could also be there.
Personally, if I were due to get on a plane, I’d hope speculation was rife and asap no stone is left unturned.
The guy who survived…whilst it seems like a miracle I just can’t get my head around how he survived and nobody else did.
I sincerely hope he gets the help he needs and that there are no shenanigans here…
An apparent translation of an Indian interview they've already done with him... Why he can't be left to recover in peace for a bit of time, before the interviews come I dont know - But it really does seem an absolute miracle.
Survivors guilt will be horrendous for him. He'll feel so much pressure to do soemthing with his life and find a purpose. Hope he's properly looked after with therapy and support for the rest of his life.
Was literally saying these words to a friend today. Awful for him just as much as everyone else involved.
I flew a 787 Dreamliner last Friday home from Chicago, brand new one as well with American Airlines, was told it was its inaugural passenger flight, huge plane. Not sure I would have got on reading all the recent articles about regular issues with it.
Surviving a plane crash is a miracle, but surviving it when every single other person died and being ok to walk to an ambulance is absolutely unbelievable.
Might also lead to some mental health issues or PTSD.
Survivors guilt will be incredible. Poor guy is going to be in therapy probably forever.
’In the history of aviation, there have been only 14 of them: sole survivors of a commercial aviation disaster. Most have never spoken publicly about the loss, the guilt, the immense pressure of feeling "spared."’
We now have a 15th.
It’s incredible but there have now been 15 sole survivors.
Ps: My greatest fear is being the sole survivor of my family, whether with them or not. I don’t think I could take it. My heart goes out to everyone involved but more to these people than those who died or the sole survivor in this case.
Survivors guilt will be horrendous for him. He'll feel so much pressure to do soemthing with his life and find a purpose. Hope he's properly looked after with therapy and support for the rest of his life.
I just hope that when the inevitable film of 'his story' is released, it genuinely is his story and that he and the relatives of others on the flight are properly recompensed.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts. Absolutely fascinating.
I can only assume you're a pilot? What do you fly?
Nah I just fix the things, have to know all the systems inside out when you work with avionics and propulsion.
Fun fact, I'm a part of a UK based volunteer team who's responsible for keeping Concorde preserved in museums (hence the photo in the other thread from Wednesday while I was doing some volunteer work at Duxford), completely off subject but if anyone wants to keep up to date with the work we do, feel free to look for Heritage Concorde on Facebook
I'm not sure the "retracted flaps instead of landing gear" theory holds up. Both pilots had thousands of hours of experience and it's not as if the controls are that similar or next to each other even.
The attached photo is of the 787 centre stack. The throttle control is in the middle, flaps to the right, landing gear to the left. As you can see, they both have very different, distinctive knobs/handles, plus the landing gear is a simple two position control, whilst the flats control is far more complicated. Blindfolded operating the two controls would feel very different, so even if the co-pilot somehow managed to grab the wrong one by mistake, there's no way you could confuse the two in operation.
Comments
It's a sad day, and a reminder to why the aviation industry needs the highest level of safety standards possible to prevent such accidents from happening again
You are correct about the noticeability of the flaps though I did my best attempt with the low quality video and me zooming in it work it out and it looks as though little to none is present but that's just my initial take without seeing better footage.
Nose was pointing high probably in a desperate attempt to stop the plane crashing. They likely tried to re-engage the throttle too.
No evidence of a stall as yet, though could have been the issue.
Just heard the audio from that first video, you can hear the RAT clearly so they must have lost something for sure for it to be deployed automatically. I've been told that there was also a mayday call immediately after take off.
There's a Boeing-ism with the 787s that Electronic Brake Actuators lock out and prevent the landing gear from being raised if you don't bring them up within 20 seconds of wheels off the ground, once this lockout kicks in you can't raise the gear for 2 minutes. Don't actually know why this is even a feature to be honest but it's a pain in the backside.
Sadly though, you can see in the final moments that the aircraft did stall
I can only assume you're a pilot? What do you fly?
Personally, if I were due to get on a plane, I’d hope speculation was rife and asap no stone is left unturned.
https://www.imdb.com/fr/video/vi2800657433/?playlistId=tt1966575&ref_=tt_ov_ov_vi
’In the history of aviation, there have been only 14 of them: sole survivors of a commercial aviation disaster. Most have never spoken publicly about the loss, the guilt, the immense pressure of feeling "spared."’
We now have a 15th.
It’s incredible but there have now been 15 sole survivors.
Ps: My greatest fear is being the sole survivor of my family, whether with them or not. I don’t think I could take it. My heart goes out to everyone involved but more to these people than those who died or the sole survivor in this case.
Fun fact, I'm a part of a UK based volunteer team who's responsible for keeping Concorde preserved in museums (hence the photo in the other thread from Wednesday while I was doing some volunteer work at Duxford), completely off subject but if anyone wants to keep up to date with the work we do, feel free to look for Heritage Concorde on Facebook
The attached photo is of the 787 centre stack. The throttle control is in the middle, flaps to the right, landing gear to the left. As you can see, they both have very different, distinctive knobs/handles, plus the landing gear is a simple two position control, whilst the flats control is far more complicated. Blindfolded operating the two controls would feel very different, so even if the co-pilot somehow managed to grab the wrong one by mistake, there's no way you could confuse the two in operation.