Today it's being reported that in the 2nd quarter top European companies are lagging behind their S&P 500 counterparts (zero growth year on year compared with +9%). Many more S&P companies than Stoxx Europe 600 companies have beaten analysts forecasts. Inevitably, this has created a rush amongst analysts to suggest that the shift from America to Europe will come to a crashing halt, and at least based on this quarter, it is hard to present an opposite case.
I personally have been making that shift. Should I stop it ? should I reverse it?. Even if I decide that these second-quarter figures are a clear signal, there's a snag. I invest primarily in funds. These funds (including those holding US equities) are denominated in £s and kept on a UK platform. So I am affected by currency movement, and the problem is, the dollar is weak, and the consensus is, there is more weakness to come. So my European funds may start to lag, but US funds will not make up for it even if the S&P continues to move upwards, because further dollar weakness will impact on the fund price.
What's a mug punter (and pensioner) to do? Maybe a bit more UK based funds? Actually one good thing about @FSLN1 posts is that he's alerted me to some more UK based income paying opportunities. I will explore that possibility (aka doing my own research😉)
Your call, but I'd look at the US economy and the effect that Trump's tariff wars are having/will have (another round of which have kicked off) and wonder what that's going to do for the US GDP. Moreover they'll be inflationary and remember, it's all those US consumers who'll be paying higher prices for imported stuff, they might not realise it yet, but they are ultimately paying for the trade wars, therefore they'll have less money for other stuff. From here I can see the Cable maybe favouring Sterling, that is if we can get some growth going. We now have a settled trade deal with the US, plus India and the EU. Much of the rest of the western world seems to be arguing with Trump so we might just be seen as a reasonably safe country to invest in...
And anyway, how are things looking if you take some of the big US tech stocks out of the equation? Companies like NVIDIA might just be dragging up a lot of dross. Tesla too, they have a ridiculous market cap which I can't justify when you consider that sales in Europe have plunged and are unlikely to be good in the US. Elon Musk has somehow managed to annoy both liberal minded folk, just by being himself, while conservatives hate him because he had a tiff with Trump, and yet their shares are changing hands at $320 a pop, the valuation of the company is nearly $1tn. That's lunacy, right now I Cannot Recommend A Purchase.
So, I'd be wary about what happens in the States, unfortunately what happens there hits the rest of the world.
But you might want to look at the defence sector...
Nato for example is clearly following the Nathan Jones model of defence first. The EU has just raised a pot of 600m Euros to spend on defending Europe while Nato members will collectively spend 4.6bn Euros this year and 5.3bn Euros in 2026. The plan is for Nato member states to continually increase spending to 5% of their national GDP by 2035. Most are way, way, way off that, some will have to more than double spending based on 2024 numbers.
That's a lot of drones...
I also noticed from Rolls-Royce's interim results last week that they have an order book worth £18.8bn just for defence sector work. Many investment funds in this sector tend to be multi-national/trans-Atlantic. UK based aerospace and defence sales are zero rated for tariffs as far as exporting to the US goes - that works for the EU too and the money is spent mostly by nation states and a few organisations like Nato, the UN etc, they tend not to look at the purse strings too closely.
And if you are looking at the suggestions I made earlier, your research will show that NextEnergy Solar is currently trading at a 30% discount to NAV while paying out over 10% PA in dividends, it's like they are giving money away. Being your environmentally friendly Charlton fan I believe in putting my money where my mouth is....and I have. As a bonus solar farms also piss off the Nimby brigade.
The viewpoint you set out in the first part of your post is actually the one that has been guiding my investment choices in the last few months. And the point is that the news I highlighted in my last post has caused me to think twice. in essence, the big European stocks may not be delivering the expected profits. And if that really turns out to be the case global investors are going to turn away from them. I hope it’s a blip but I fear it isn’t, not least since I hold a pretty large slug of Novo Nordisk shares and I don’t need to tell you what kind of rollercoaster ride that has been.I am holding, but bloody hell.
Your individual tips may actually be quite useful for me, but the reason why you’re getting such stick is that I am in a very different situation to @Webby and people like him, who probably form the majority of readers of this thread. I think you should be very circumspect about individual share tips if you mean well, which I’m sure you do. Round about three years ago I asked for suggestions good dividend stocks. Of those I chose from the suggestions some have worked really well for me, others less so. A certain prominent contributor to this thread will now once again wince as I mention “Direct Line” but I believe he knows that I regard him as a friend who among other things gave me valuable advice when my Mum passed away- and he also knows that I took sole responsibility for acting on that and all the other suggestions I took up. Clearly in the case of Direct Line my “own research” failed to uncover the reckless decisions being taken by that company’s leadership.
So I’d recommend you to read the article I linked to regarding second quarter earnings, and separately to take on board my remarks about the constituents of this thread. And if I take up one of your suggestions, I will definitely owe you a pint, as I do to whichever Lifer mentioned Legal&General, and TR Property ( I know who that was, cheers, Ian).
This thread has been running for ages with people offering sound advice to those less engaged financially but even so I think anyone listening to that advice doesn't take it at face value and would consult someone appropriate despite the advice on here being given in good faith.
I don't think @FSLN1 posts have been particularly helpful and the suggestions made whilst maybe being ok for some who are prepared to take a massive risk are not helpful to those who find investments, SIPP's, pensions etc a minefield to navigate and seeing as these products are going to shape their futures financially there is a need to be very circumspect with any advice posted.
Don’t get me wrong, I dabble in all sorts, individual shares and crypto (been known to make the occasional 50% profit within an hour trading Bitcoin for example) etc. but the idea that isolated, anecdotal evidence of non repeatable success is in anyway scalable to 400k is ridiculous. There’s a reason why the super rich’s financial planning would be seen to you and me as unnecessarily risk averse.
OK. Not asking for recommendations, but certainly informed viewpoints.
HSBC. Thinking of buying, as an income stock. As a retail customer I definitely have the feeling they have got their act together, although the app remains disappointingly limited. But retail is just one part of their biz. Currently they are trading at 931p. I missed the chance to get in at 875p. a few weeks back when I first thought of it.
How do those who know the banking sector well (e.g @TelMc32) see their prospects?
OK. Not asking for recommendations, but certainly informed viewpoints.
HSBC. Thinking of buying, as an income stock. As a retail customer I definitely have the feeling they have got their act together, although the app remains disappointingly limited. But retail is just one part of their biz. Currently they are trading at 931p. I missed the chance to get in at 875p. a few weeks back when I first thought of it.
How do those who know the banking sector well (e.g @TelMc32) see their prospects?
I’m surprised hsbc haven’t completely dropped their retail banking, it’s chickens feed to them compared to what they make on the investing side.
OK. Not asking for recommendations, but certainly informed viewpoints.
HSBC. Thinking of buying, as an income stock. As a retail customer I definitely have the feeling they have got their act together, although the app remains disappointingly limited. But retail is just one part of their biz. Currently they are trading at 931p. I missed the chance to get in at 875p. a few weeks back when I first thought of it.
How do those who know the banking sector well (e.g @TelMc32) see their prospects?
I’m surprised hsbc haven’t completely dropped their retail banking, it’s chickens feed to them compared to what they make on the investing side.
Well I hope they don't. As far as I can see they are making a serious effort to attract cross-border customers like me while the other British banks have no interest in us and indeed try to kick those they have out.
But I was really asking about their overall performance and outlook as a business and whether that makes them a buy for someone interested in the dividend.
OK. Not asking for recommendations, but certainly informed viewpoints.
HSBC. Thinking of buying, as an income stock. As a retail customer I definitely have the feeling they have got their act together, although the app remains disappointingly limited. But retail is just one part of their biz. Currently they are trading at 931p. I missed the chance to get in at 875p. a few weeks back when I first thought of it.
How do those who know the banking sector well (e.g @TelMc32) see their prospects?
I’m surprised hsbc haven’t completely dropped their retail banking, it’s chickens feed to them compared to what they make on the investing side.
Horribly complex organisation.
Multiple territories and jurisdictions and numerous systems that are not all efficiently integrated.
Restructuring to simplify but they’ve tried before to amend the organisational structure.
It’s huge and will make money but whether it’s always in line with market expectations is anyone’s guess.
Banking stocks have never been the same since 2008 and I wouldn’t judge their prospects on your retail experience.
OK. Not asking for recommendations, but certainly informed viewpoints.
HSBC. Thinking of buying, as an income stock. As a retail customer I definitely have the feeling they have got their act together, although the app remains disappointingly limited. But retail is just one part of their biz. Currently they are trading at 931p. I missed the chance to get in at 875p. a few weeks back when I first thought of it.
How do those who know the banking sector well (e.g @TelMc32) see their prospects?
I bought a few in May at £8.48 so I'm pleased with the capital growth, though I bought them to generate a bit of ISA income. But it's pin sticking on my part, and the fact I had no banking shares in my investments. (Plenty of insurers though - L&G, Aviva, Phoenix, all doing fairly well with similarly chunky dividends) As an aside, one of my friends is an analyst at RBC and when I mentioned I'd bought them, she said "What did you do that for?". The conversation moved on, but hindsight has validated my purchase. I might follow up with her.
I was more talking about the frankly ridiculous notion that someone might "never have claimed a penny in their life" when reality is that everyone benefits directly and indirectly.
I wasn't really talking about the rights and wrongs of IHT specifically. I understand your point of view here. Its not one I agree with, but I see where it comes from.
Fiscal drag is a huge huge issue (don't get me started) but IHT is one where the thresholds have actually moved (not enough) since 2010. Most haven't at all.
As in I have never been on benefits and have paid in a significant of money into the system, so basically I have paid my dues.
But you have taken from the system in countless other ways as we all have. And will continue to do so at an increasing rate until you die. The focus on benefits is all wrong. That's just one small way that people take from the system over a lifetime.
"I've paid my dues" comes across as a pretty entitled way of thinking about it. And i thought it was us millennials who were meant to be the entitled ones.
Sorry to have come across an entitled but ..
40 years of paye, ni, 15+ years of corporation tax, employers ni and vat. Still paying tax on our rental income and pensions. Have private medical and dental hence my comment on having paid my dues. IHT is tax on taxed money full stop. Tax should be on gains over and above the original cost. Why should the tax man get 40% or so on something that cost 200k which is now worth 220k it's the 20k that is taxable.
OK. Not asking for recommendations, but certainly informed viewpoints.
HSBC. Thinking of buying, as an income stock. As a retail customer I definitely have the feeling they have got their act together, although the app remains disappointingly limited. But retail is just one part of their biz. Currently they are trading at 931p. I missed the chance to get in at 875p. a few weeks back when I first thought of it.
How do those who know the banking sector well (e.g @TelMc32) see their prospects?
I bought a few in May at £8.48 so I'm pleased with the capital growth, though I bought them to generate a bit of ISA income. But it's pin sticking on my part, and the fact I had no banking shares in my investments. (Plenty of insurers though - L&G, Aviva, Phoenix, all doing fairly well with similarly chunky dividends) As an aside, one of my friends is an analyst at RBC and when I mentioned I'd bought them, she said "What did you do that for?". The conversation moved on, but hindsight has validated my purchase. I might follow up with her.
I would have thought if you are looking for income best go for the traditional household names that pay good dividends. But, as I have said upthread, I know nothing about individual shares.
The large majority of my modest portfolio is in accumulation funds that generate no income, so I put a small proportion into dividend payers, all FTSE 100 shares, to generate enough income to cover plan charges and with luck leave a bit for further reinvestment into things I feel might do well, whether or not they generate income.
The large majority of my modest portfolio is in accumulation funds that generate no income, so I put a small proportion into dividend payers, all FTSE 100 shares, to generate enough income to cover plan charges and with luck leave a bit for further reinvestment into things I feel might do well, whether or not they generate income.
I take a different view with individual shares. I’d rather make 20% on share price than a 5% dividend. Individual shares are fraught with danger though, generally I’ve done pretty well and made decent gains over a short period, but have also had the odd one I’ve dumped with little profit or even a small loss.
i used to play with a SIPP that had a small amount in, to see if I could beat the funds, which I’m pleased to say I generally did, but it was less than 10% of my overall pensions.
now I’m approaching 53 and will want to draw in a few years I stick to ETF’s and cash.
All good, mate. Still got plenty left to sell. When it hits 5% above the level when I sold the last lot, I’ll sell some more.
I use this tactic in reverse when I’m wanting to buy too. Very good tactic when you are never entirely convinced you are making the right move. Which in my case is 95% of the time, the main historic exceptions being buying money market funds and selling Direct Line🤣
Today it's being reported that in the 2nd quarter top European companies are lagging behind their S&P 500 counterparts (zero growth year on year compared with +9%). Many more S&P companies than Stoxx Europe 600 companies have beaten analysts forecasts. Inevitably, this has created a rush amongst analysts to suggest that the shift from America to Europe will come to a crashing halt, and at least based on this quarter, it is hard to present an opposite case.
I personally have been making that shift. Should I stop it ? should I reverse it?. Even if I decide that these second-quarter figures are a clear signal, there's a snag. I invest primarily in funds. These funds (including those holding US equities) are denominated in £s and kept on a UK platform. So I am affected by currency movement, and the problem is, the dollar is weak, and the consensus is, there is more weakness to come. So my European funds may start to lag, but US funds will not make up for it even if the S&P continues to move upwards, because further dollar weakness will impact on the fund price.
What's a mug punter (and pensioner) to do? Maybe a bit more UK based funds? Actually one good thing about @FSLN1 posts is that he's alerted me to some more UK based income paying opportunities. I will explore that possibility (aka doing my own research😉)
Your call, but I'd look at the US economy and the effect that Trump's tariff wars are having/will have (another round of which have kicked off) and wonder what that's going to do for the US GDP. Moreover they'll be inflationary and remember, it's all those US consumers who'll be paying higher prices for imported stuff, they might not realise it yet, but they are ultimately paying for the trade wars, therefore they'll have less money for other stuff. From here I can see the Cable maybe favouring Sterling, that is if we can get some growth going. We now have a settled trade deal with the US, plus India and the EU. Much of the rest of the western world seems to be arguing with Trump so we might just be seen as a reasonably safe country to invest in...
And anyway, how are things looking if you take some of the big US tech stocks out of the equation? Companies like NVIDIA might just be dragging up a lot of dross. Tesla too, they have a ridiculous market cap which I can't justify when you consider that sales in Europe have plunged and are unlikely to be good in the US. Elon Musk has somehow managed to annoy both liberal minded folk, just by being himself, while conservatives hate him because he had a tiff with Trump, and yet their shares are changing hands at $320 a pop, the valuation of the company is nearly $1tn. That's lunacy, right now I Cannot Recommend A Purchase.
So, I'd be wary about what happens in the States, unfortunately what happens there hits the rest of the world.
But you might want to look at the defence sector...
Nato for example is clearly following the Nathan Jones model of defence first. The EU has just raised a pot of 600m Euros to spend on defending Europe while Nato members will collectively spend 4.6bn Euros this year and 5.3bn Euros in 2026. The plan is for Nato member states to continually increase spending to 5% of their national GDP by 2035. Most are way, way, way off that, some will have to more than double spending based on 2024 numbers.
That's a lot of drones...
I also noticed from Rolls-Royce's interim results last week that they have an order book worth £18.8bn just for defence sector work. Many investment funds in this sector tend to be multi-national/trans-Atlantic. UK based aerospace and defence sales are zero rated for tariffs as far as exporting to the US goes - that works for the EU too and the money is spent mostly by nation states and a few organisations like Nato, the UN etc, they tend not to look at the purse strings too closely.
And if you are looking at the suggestions I made earlier, your research will show that NextEnergy Solar is currently trading at a 30% discount to NAV while paying out over 10% PA in dividends, it's like they are giving money away. Being your environmentally friendly Charlton fan I believe in putting my money where my mouth is....and I have. As a bonus solar farms also piss off the Nimby brigade.
Invest in the military industry, eh!
A question I rarely see raised in this thread is the ethics behind investment choices.
Would "you" sacrifice profit by avoiding investing in something you (or others) considers unethical?
Today it's being reported that in the 2nd quarter top European companies are lagging behind their S&P 500 counterparts (zero growth year on year compared with +9%). Many more S&P companies than Stoxx Europe 600 companies have beaten analysts forecasts. Inevitably, this has created a rush amongst analysts to suggest that the shift from America to Europe will come to a crashing halt, and at least based on this quarter, it is hard to present an opposite case.
I personally have been making that shift. Should I stop it ? should I reverse it?. Even if I decide that these second-quarter figures are a clear signal, there's a snag. I invest primarily in funds. These funds (including those holding US equities) are denominated in £s and kept on a UK platform. So I am affected by currency movement, and the problem is, the dollar is weak, and the consensus is, there is more weakness to come. So my European funds may start to lag, but US funds will not make up for it even if the S&P continues to move upwards, because further dollar weakness will impact on the fund price.
What's a mug punter (and pensioner) to do? Maybe a bit more UK based funds? Actually one good thing about @FSLN1 posts is that he's alerted me to some more UK based income paying opportunities. I will explore that possibility (aka doing my own research😉)
Your call, but I'd look at the US economy and the effect that Trump's tariff wars are having/will have (another round of which have kicked off) and wonder what that's going to do for the US GDP. Moreover they'll be inflationary and remember, it's all those US consumers who'll be paying higher prices for imported stuff, they might not realise it yet, but they are ultimately paying for the trade wars, therefore they'll have less money for other stuff. From here I can see the Cable maybe favouring Sterling, that is if we can get some growth going. We now have a settled trade deal with the US, plus India and the EU. Much of the rest of the western world seems to be arguing with Trump so we might just be seen as a reasonably safe country to invest in...
And anyway, how are things looking if you take some of the big US tech stocks out of the equation? Companies like NVIDIA might just be dragging up a lot of dross. Tesla too, they have a ridiculous market cap which I can't justify when you consider that sales in Europe have plunged and are unlikely to be good in the US. Elon Musk has somehow managed to annoy both liberal minded folk, just by being himself, while conservatives hate him because he had a tiff with Trump, and yet their shares are changing hands at $320 a pop, the valuation of the company is nearly $1tn. That's lunacy, right now I Cannot Recommend A Purchase.
So, I'd be wary about what happens in the States, unfortunately what happens there hits the rest of the world.
But you might want to look at the defence sector...
Nato for example is clearly following the Nathan Jones model of defence first. The EU has just raised a pot of 600m Euros to spend on defending Europe while Nato members will collectively spend 4.6bn Euros this year and 5.3bn Euros in 2026. The plan is for Nato member states to continually increase spending to 5% of their national GDP by 2035. Most are way, way, way off that, some will have to more than double spending based on 2024 numbers.
That's a lot of drones...
I also noticed from Rolls-Royce's interim results last week that they have an order book worth £18.8bn just for defence sector work. Many investment funds in this sector tend to be multi-national/trans-Atlantic. UK based aerospace and defence sales are zero rated for tariffs as far as exporting to the US goes - that works for the EU too and the money is spent mostly by nation states and a few organisations like Nato, the UN etc, they tend not to look at the purse strings too closely.
And if you are looking at the suggestions I made earlier, your research will show that NextEnergy Solar is currently trading at a 30% discount to NAV while paying out over 10% PA in dividends, it's like they are giving money away. Being your environmentally friendly Charlton fan I believe in putting my money where my mouth is....and I have. As a bonus solar farms also piss off the Nimby brigade.
Invest in the military industry, eh!
A question I rarely see raised in this thread is the ethics behind investment choices.
Would "you" sacrifice profit by avoiding investing in something you (or others) considers unethical?
I have
My lists or now on T212, my pies
The c*"t pie
Weapons companies Anyone who tests on animals Companies who have questionable human rights records, history of industrial action Tobacco Big pharmaceutical
The nice pie
Sustainable Ethical Rewards staff Invests in renewables
I am making mistakes, getting the occasional hole in one, Rolls Royce, BAE and then learning I'd been being an idiot by firstly using the HL platform to trade shares (expemsive mistake that one) spreading myself too thick, then too thin, then the worst of all. Doing all of this within the investment section as opposed to the ISA stocks and shares sections. Then realising that T212 is the cheapest and easiest way of doing all of this and a really good platform to practice on. Literally has a practice mode
You get the picture, ultimately I still want to see a return and a dividend yield. If ethical stuff gets me that, I'm in however I do think twice about putting money into say a company heavily focused in cobalt mining in Congo
Today it's being reported that in the 2nd quarter top European companies are lagging behind their S&P 500 counterparts (zero growth year on year compared with +9%). Many more S&P companies than Stoxx Europe 600 companies have beaten analysts forecasts. Inevitably, this has created a rush amongst analysts to suggest that the shift from America to Europe will come to a crashing halt, and at least based on this quarter, it is hard to present an opposite case.
I personally have been making that shift. Should I stop it ? should I reverse it?. Even if I decide that these second-quarter figures are a clear signal, there's a snag. I invest primarily in funds. These funds (including those holding US equities) are denominated in £s and kept on a UK platform. So I am affected by currency movement, and the problem is, the dollar is weak, and the consensus is, there is more weakness to come. So my European funds may start to lag, but US funds will not make up for it even if the S&P continues to move upwards, because further dollar weakness will impact on the fund price.
What's a mug punter (and pensioner) to do? Maybe a bit more UK based funds? Actually one good thing about @FSLN1 posts is that he's alerted me to some more UK based income paying opportunities. I will explore that possibility (aka doing my own research😉)
Your call, but I'd look at the US economy and the effect that Trump's tariff wars are having/will have (another round of which have kicked off) and wonder what that's going to do for the US GDP. Moreover they'll be inflationary and remember, it's all those US consumers who'll be paying higher prices for imported stuff, they might not realise it yet, but they are ultimately paying for the trade wars, therefore they'll have less money for other stuff. From here I can see the Cable maybe favouring Sterling, that is if we can get some growth going. We now have a settled trade deal with the US, plus India and the EU. Much of the rest of the western world seems to be arguing with Trump so we might just be seen as a reasonably safe country to invest in...
And anyway, how are things looking if you take some of the big US tech stocks out of the equation? Companies like NVIDIA might just be dragging up a lot of dross. Tesla too, they have a ridiculous market cap which I can't justify when you consider that sales in Europe have plunged and are unlikely to be good in the US. Elon Musk has somehow managed to annoy both liberal minded folk, just by being himself, while conservatives hate him because he had a tiff with Trump, and yet their shares are changing hands at $320 a pop, the valuation of the company is nearly $1tn. That's lunacy, right now I Cannot Recommend A Purchase.
So, I'd be wary about what happens in the States, unfortunately what happens there hits the rest of the world.
But you might want to look at the defence sector...
Nato for example is clearly following the Nathan Jones model of defence first. The EU has just raised a pot of 600m Euros to spend on defending Europe while Nato members will collectively spend 4.6bn Euros this year and 5.3bn Euros in 2026. The plan is for Nato member states to continually increase spending to 5% of their national GDP by 2035. Most are way, way, way off that, some will have to more than double spending based on 2024 numbers.
That's a lot of drones...
I also noticed from Rolls-Royce's interim results last week that they have an order book worth £18.8bn just for defence sector work. Many investment funds in this sector tend to be multi-national/trans-Atlantic. UK based aerospace and defence sales are zero rated for tariffs as far as exporting to the US goes - that works for the EU too and the money is spent mostly by nation states and a few organisations like Nato, the UN etc, they tend not to look at the purse strings too closely.
And if you are looking at the suggestions I made earlier, your research will show that NextEnergy Solar is currently trading at a 30% discount to NAV while paying out over 10% PA in dividends, it's like they are giving money away. Being your environmentally friendly Charlton fan I believe in putting my money where my mouth is....and I have. As a bonus solar farms also piss off the Nimby brigade.
Invest in the military industry, eh!
A question I rarely see raised in this thread is the ethics behind investment choices.
Would "you" sacrifice profit by avoiding investing in something you (or others) considers unethical?
I have
My lists or now on T212, my pies
The c*"t pie
Weapons companies Anyone who tests on animals Companies who have questionable human rights records, history of industrial action Tobacco Big pharmaceutical
The nice pie
Sustainable Ethical Rewards staff Invests in renewables
I am making mistakes, getting the occasional hole in one, Rolls Royce, BAE and then learning I'd been being an idiot by firstly using the HL platform to trade shares (expemsive mistake that one) spreading myself too thick, then too thin, then the worst of all. Doing all of this within the investment section as opposed to the ISA stocks and shares sections. Then realising that T212 is the cheapest and easiest way of doing all of this and a really good platform to practice on. Literally has a practice mode
You get the picture, ultimately I still want to see a return and a dividend yield. If ethical stuff gets me that, I'm in however I do think twice about putting money into say a company heavily focused in cobalt mining in Congo
Bit late with this as I've just got back from holiday. While on holiday I had a notification that I'd won on the premium bonds. I couldn't check how much as I didn't have my pb number with me. Turns out I've won £700. My best ever win. 1 x £500 2 × £100 This is on a holding of £22. Came at a good time as I'd spent more than I wanted on holiday.
I'm still down from July 31st. BTW, what's the best way to become an IFA? I'm considering a career change after doing what I've been doing for the past 18 years.
@Carter Like others I tip my hat to your list there. I do think it is tricky to make these judgements sometime on limited knowledge. e.g…..
Tobacco. Too bloody right. I was always proud to work for an ad agency that refused tobacco (and defence) clients. And when you meet their people close up, as I did when I got out here, you know you’ve made the right call. Something weird happens to the young marketing people who go to work there, attracted by the industry leading salaries.
But big Pharma? Thats more tricky, I think. The way AstraZeneca and especially BionTech cracked those Covid vaccines in record time, don’t they deserve some credit for that, some thanks even?
I don’t invest in share so much as funds, but one shareholding of mine is Novo Nordisk. It only happened because my assistant helped me land some work with them. I knew nothing about them until then. They were very decent people ( as Danes usually are) , and at the time they were just focusing on diabetes. But as the posters in the reception area said, “ Did you know that diabetes affects 1 in 10 Czechs? “ Well their treatments were effective and there’s no question of them being addictive, so what’s wrong if they make money from that? I bought shares, and then they made the obesity discovery. ( I got lucky, and then got unlucky again as the shares are back to within 20% of my buy level). The obesity issue does bring ethical questions, but the potential upside is that if you cut obesity you cut a lot of strain on NHS resources.
@Carter Like others I tip my hat to your list there. I do think it is tricky to make these judgements sometime on limited knowledge. e.g…..
Tobacco. Too bloody right. I was always proud to work for an ad agency that refused tobacco (and defence) clients. And when you meet their people close up, as I did when I got out here, you know you’ve made the right call. Something weird happens to the young marketing people who go to work there, attracted by the industry leading salaries.
But big Pharma? Thats more tricky, I think. The way AstraZeneca and especially BionTech cracked those Covid vaccines in record time, don’t they deserve some credit for that, some thanks even?
I don’t invest in share so much as funds, but one shareholding of mine is Novo Nordisk. It only happened because my assistant helped me land some work with them. I knew nothing about them until then. They were very decent people ( as Danes usually are) , and at the time they were just focusing on diabetes. But as the posters in the reception area said, “ Did you know that diabetes affects 1 in 10 Czechs? “ Well their treatments were effective and there’s no question of them being addictive, so what’s wrong if they make money from that? I bought shares, and then they made the obesity discovery. ( I got lucky, and then got unlucky again as the shares are back to within 20% of my buy level). The obesity issue does bring ethical questions, but the potential upside is that if you cut obesity you cut a lot of strain on NHS resources.
It’s complicated. Sometimes it does my head in.
I absolutely agree with you on the points made, I do however park a few "in the weeds" personal feelings for the purpose of making a pie. More like look at the headlines rather than the full article for thr purpose of the exercise.
I'm not the same (I'm talking like a player here but I've been dicking about with investment platforms for just shy of 5 years so am not a complete novice but have made enough howlers to learn the hard way from them) in that picking individual stocks is way too finger in the air and gut-instinct for me. When Ukraine kicked off and it was clear us and other countries would be increasing defence spending picking BAE, Rolls, Lockheed Martin etc seemed like a no brainer however doing so and making juicy profits gave me problems I didn't expect. I could very easily have been driven by greed and sub-consciously hoped for that awful war to escalate or just drag on. Same with the middle east and obviously I'd rather those conflicts got resolved and leaders stopped chucking their people into meat grinders.
However, selfishly I want to retire before I physically can't work anymore so.....
The novo nordisk is an easy one, taking the diabetes work they do and subsequently the discovery of the weight loss drugs is great for prices, humans and the NHS. I know a guy who has lost 8 stone in a year on them. He is saving us/the NHS money because of them.
Then you have the more dark side of pharmaceuticals basically driven by America and their attitude to creating enormous addiction problems with Vicodin, Oxycotin and their ilk.
And then my big punt going on not much more than a bunch that water is going to be something we need to take seriously not in a small part fuelled by the plot for quantum of solace and the big shirt where Dr Bury now solely invests in water. That seems an ethical place to be but as an investment or certainly as a impatient day trade it isnt necessarily a profitable one. Unless you are Liv Garfield or the boss/on the board of one of the other water companies
Today it's being reported that in the 2nd quarter top European companies are lagging behind their S&P 500 counterparts (zero growth year on year compared with +9%). Many more S&P companies than Stoxx Europe 600 companies have beaten analysts forecasts. Inevitably, this has created a rush amongst analysts to suggest that the shift from America to Europe will come to a crashing halt, and at least based on this quarter, it is hard to present an opposite case.
I personally have been making that shift. Should I stop it ? should I reverse it?. Even if I decide that these second-quarter figures are a clear signal, there's a snag. I invest primarily in funds. These funds (including those holding US equities) are denominated in £s and kept on a UK platform. So I am affected by currency movement, and the problem is, the dollar is weak, and the consensus is, there is more weakness to come. So my European funds may start to lag, but US funds will not make up for it even if the S&P continues to move upwards, because further dollar weakness will impact on the fund price.
What's a mug punter (and pensioner) to do? Maybe a bit more UK based funds? Actually one good thing about @FSLN1 posts is that he's alerted me to some more UK based income paying opportunities. I will explore that possibility (aka doing my own research😉)
Your call, but I'd look at the US economy and the effect that Trump's tariff wars are having/will have (another round of which have kicked off) and wonder what that's going to do for the US GDP. Moreover they'll be inflationary and remember, it's all those US consumers who'll be paying higher prices for imported stuff, they might not realise it yet, but they are ultimately paying for the trade wars, therefore they'll have less money for other stuff. From here I can see the Cable maybe favouring Sterling, that is if we can get some growth going. We now have a settled trade deal with the US, plus India and the EU. Much of the rest of the western world seems to be arguing with Trump so we might just be seen as a reasonably safe country to invest in...
And anyway, how are things looking if you take some of the big US tech stocks out of the equation? Companies like NVIDIA might just be dragging up a lot of dross. Tesla too, they have a ridiculous market cap which I can't justify when you consider that sales in Europe have plunged and are unlikely to be good in the US. Elon Musk has somehow managed to annoy both liberal minded folk, just by being himself, while conservatives hate him because he had a tiff with Trump, and yet their shares are changing hands at $320 a pop, the valuation of the company is nearly $1tn. That's lunacy, right now I Cannot Recommend A Purchase.
So, I'd be wary about what happens in the States, unfortunately what happens there hits the rest of the world.
But you might want to look at the defence sector...
Nato for example is clearly following the Nathan Jones model of defence first. The EU has just raised a pot of 600m Euros to spend on defending Europe while Nato members will collectively spend 4.6bn Euros this year and 5.3bn Euros in 2026. The plan is for Nato member states to continually increase spending to 5% of their national GDP by 2035. Most are way, way, way off that, some will have to more than double spending based on 2024 numbers.
That's a lot of drones...
I also noticed from Rolls-Royce's interim results last week that they have an order book worth £18.8bn just for defence sector work. Many investment funds in this sector tend to be multi-national/trans-Atlantic. UK based aerospace and defence sales are zero rated for tariffs as far as exporting to the US goes - that works for the EU too and the money is spent mostly by nation states and a few organisations like Nato, the UN etc, they tend not to look at the purse strings too closely.
And if you are looking at the suggestions I made earlier, your research will show that NextEnergy Solar is currently trading at a 30% discount to NAV while paying out over 10% PA in dividends, it's like they are giving money away. Being your environmentally friendly Charlton fan I believe in putting my money where my mouth is....and I have. As a bonus solar farms also piss off the Nimby brigade.
Invest in the military industry, eh!
A question I rarely see raised in this thread is the ethics behind investment choices.
Would "you" sacrifice profit by avoiding investing in something you (or others) considers unethical?
It's a really important question. And something I've been grappling with recently as I've got to a point where investing more seriously became an option (post house deposit and rennovations/saving for rennovations).
Personally I have a pretty high threshold for what I consider ethical or morally okay. I've seen first hand through my work the damage that practices commonly used by private equity have on a sector when they come in and take over. Usually leaving massive social damage and government to pay the cost and pick up the pieces.
I wouldn't want to make money on the back of practices like that
Another example is companies that don't pay a living wage or that has used fire and rehire or employs people (e.g. delivery drivers) as contractors to pay below minimum wage. I already boycott the majority of those for purchases so why would i eant to invest in them.
Its difficult because everything is so interconnected and I mostly want to stick to funds and all the major funds include some element of these.
There are some funds (often marketed at Gen z and younger millenials) that are labelled as ethical or sustainable. These often focus on green sector and sustainable practices but there is an element of ethical business practices.
It's always a tightrope and there will inevitably be some things on both sides of that line I don't agree with.
Today it's being reported that in the 2nd quarter top European companies are lagging behind their S&P 500 counterparts (zero growth year on year compared with +9%). Many more S&P companies than Stoxx Europe 600 companies have beaten analysts forecasts. Inevitably, this has created a rush amongst analysts to suggest that the shift from America to Europe will come to a crashing halt, and at least based on this quarter, it is hard to present an opposite case.
I personally have been making that shift. Should I stop it ? should I reverse it?. Even if I decide that these second-quarter figures are a clear signal, there's a snag. I invest primarily in funds. These funds (including those holding US equities) are denominated in £s and kept on a UK platform. So I am affected by currency movement, and the problem is, the dollar is weak, and the consensus is, there is more weakness to come. So my European funds may start to lag, but US funds will not make up for it even if the S&P continues to move upwards, because further dollar weakness will impact on the fund price.
What's a mug punter (and pensioner) to do? Maybe a bit more UK based funds? Actually one good thing about @FSLN1 posts is that he's alerted me to some more UK based income paying opportunities. I will explore that possibility (aka doing my own research😉)
Your call, but I'd look at the US economy and the effect that Trump's tariff wars are having/will have (another round of which have kicked off) and wonder what that's going to do for the US GDP. Moreover they'll be inflationary and remember, it's all those US consumers who'll be paying higher prices for imported stuff, they might not realise it yet, but they are ultimately paying for the trade wars, therefore they'll have less money for other stuff. From here I can see the Cable maybe favouring Sterling, that is if we can get some growth going. We now have a settled trade deal with the US, plus India and the EU. Much of the rest of the western world seems to be arguing with Trump so we might just be seen as a reasonably safe country to invest in...
And anyway, how are things looking if you take some of the big US tech stocks out of the equation? Companies like NVIDIA might just be dragging up a lot of dross. Tesla too, they have a ridiculous market cap which I can't justify when you consider that sales in Europe have plunged and are unlikely to be good in the US. Elon Musk has somehow managed to annoy both liberal minded folk, just by being himself, while conservatives hate him because he had a tiff with Trump, and yet their shares are changing hands at $320 a pop, the valuation of the company is nearly $1tn. That's lunacy, right now I Cannot Recommend A Purchase.
So, I'd be wary about what happens in the States, unfortunately what happens there hits the rest of the world.
But you might want to look at the defence sector...
Nato for example is clearly following the Nathan Jones model of defence first. The EU has just raised a pot of 600m Euros to spend on defending Europe while Nato members will collectively spend 4.6bn Euros this year and 5.3bn Euros in 2026. The plan is for Nato member states to continually increase spending to 5% of their national GDP by 2035. Most are way, way, way off that, some will have to more than double spending based on 2024 numbers.
That's a lot of drones...
I also noticed from Rolls-Royce's interim results last week that they have an order book worth £18.8bn just for defence sector work. Many investment funds in this sector tend to be multi-national/trans-Atlantic. UK based aerospace and defence sales are zero rated for tariffs as far as exporting to the US goes - that works for the EU too and the money is spent mostly by nation states and a few organisations like Nato, the UN etc, they tend not to look at the purse strings too closely.
And if you are looking at the suggestions I made earlier, your research will show that NextEnergy Solar is currently trading at a 30% discount to NAV while paying out over 10% PA in dividends, it's like they are giving money away. Being your environmentally friendly Charlton fan I believe in putting my money where my mouth is....and I have. As a bonus solar farms also piss off the Nimby brigade.
Invest in the military industry, eh!
A question I rarely see raised in this thread is the ethics behind investment choices.
Would "you" sacrifice profit by avoiding investing in something you (or others) considers unethical?
I have
My lists or now on T212, my pies
The c*"t pie
Weapons companies Anyone who tests on animals Companies who have questionable human rights records, history of industrial action Tobacco Big pharmaceutical
The nice pie
Sustainable Ethical Rewards staff Invests in renewables
I am making mistakes, getting the occasional hole in one, Rolls Royce, BAE and then learning I'd been being an idiot by firstly using the HL platform to trade shares (expemsive mistake that one) spreading myself too thick, then too thin, then the worst of all. Doing all of this within the investment section as opposed to the ISA stocks and shares sections. Then realising that T212 is the cheapest and easiest way of doing all of this and a really good platform to practice on. Literally has a practice mode
You get the picture, ultimately I still want to see a return and a dividend yield. If ethical stuff gets me that, I'm in however I do think twice about putting money into say a company heavily focused in cobalt mining in Congo
I must take issue with your C**t pile. Pharmaceutical - big research facilitities, which has resulted in thousands/millions of lives saved - probably including mine Weapons - defending western countries - besides the current defence of Ukraine, which is main boost to current spending and raising their attraction. Probably would have lost to Hitler had there not been a private weapons industry Animal testing - for cosmetics I agree. Life saving for humans though? Again I might be about to go on a cancer drug trial. Certainly wouldn't rule out animal testing here.
Overall good things come out today about the uk. Growth higher than expected, one of the fastest growing economies in the g7, happy days. Long may it continue.
Today it's being reported that in the 2nd quarter top European companies are lagging behind their S&P 500 counterparts (zero growth year on year compared with +9%). Many more S&P companies than Stoxx Europe 600 companies have beaten analysts forecasts. Inevitably, this has created a rush amongst analysts to suggest that the shift from America to Europe will come to a crashing halt, and at least based on this quarter, it is hard to present an opposite case.
I personally have been making that shift. Should I stop it ? should I reverse it?. Even if I decide that these second-quarter figures are a clear signal, there's a snag. I invest primarily in funds. These funds (including those holding US equities) are denominated in £s and kept on a UK platform. So I am affected by currency movement, and the problem is, the dollar is weak, and the consensus is, there is more weakness to come. So my European funds may start to lag, but US funds will not make up for it even if the S&P continues to move upwards, because further dollar weakness will impact on the fund price.
What's a mug punter (and pensioner) to do? Maybe a bit more UK based funds? Actually one good thing about @FSLN1 posts is that he's alerted me to some more UK based income paying opportunities. I will explore that possibility (aka doing my own research😉)
Your call, but I'd look at the US economy and the effect that Trump's tariff wars are having/will have (another round of which have kicked off) and wonder what that's going to do for the US GDP. Moreover they'll be inflationary and remember, it's all those US consumers who'll be paying higher prices for imported stuff, they might not realise it yet, but they are ultimately paying for the trade wars, therefore they'll have less money for other stuff. From here I can see the Cable maybe favouring Sterling, that is if we can get some growth going. We now have a settled trade deal with the US, plus India and the EU. Much of the rest of the western world seems to be arguing with Trump so we might just be seen as a reasonably safe country to invest in...
And anyway, how are things looking if you take some of the big US tech stocks out of the equation? Companies like NVIDIA might just be dragging up a lot of dross. Tesla too, they have a ridiculous market cap which I can't justify when you consider that sales in Europe have plunged and are unlikely to be good in the US. Elon Musk has somehow managed to annoy both liberal minded folk, just by being himself, while conservatives hate him because he had a tiff with Trump, and yet their shares are changing hands at $320 a pop, the valuation of the company is nearly $1tn. That's lunacy, right now I Cannot Recommend A Purchase.
So, I'd be wary about what happens in the States, unfortunately what happens there hits the rest of the world.
But you might want to look at the defence sector...
Nato for example is clearly following the Nathan Jones model of defence first. The EU has just raised a pot of 600m Euros to spend on defending Europe while Nato members will collectively spend 4.6bn Euros this year and 5.3bn Euros in 2026. The plan is for Nato member states to continually increase spending to 5% of their national GDP by 2035. Most are way, way, way off that, some will have to more than double spending based on 2024 numbers.
That's a lot of drones...
I also noticed from Rolls-Royce's interim results last week that they have an order book worth £18.8bn just for defence sector work. Many investment funds in this sector tend to be multi-national/trans-Atlantic. UK based aerospace and defence sales are zero rated for tariffs as far as exporting to the US goes - that works for the EU too and the money is spent mostly by nation states and a few organisations like Nato, the UN etc, they tend not to look at the purse strings too closely.
And if you are looking at the suggestions I made earlier, your research will show that NextEnergy Solar is currently trading at a 30% discount to NAV while paying out over 10% PA in dividends, it's like they are giving money away. Being your environmentally friendly Charlton fan I believe in putting my money where my mouth is....and I have. As a bonus solar farms also piss off the Nimby brigade.
Invest in the military industry, eh!
A question I rarely see raised in this thread is the ethics behind investment choices.
Would "you" sacrifice profit by avoiding investing in something you (or others) considers unethical?
I have
My lists or now on T212, my pies
The c*"t pie
Weapons companies Anyone who tests on animals Companies who have questionable human rights records, history of industrial action Tobacco Big pharmaceutical
The nice pie
Sustainable Ethical Rewards staff Invests in renewables
I am making mistakes, getting the occasional hole in one, Rolls Royce, BAE and then learning I'd been being an idiot by firstly using the HL platform to trade shares (expemsive mistake that one) spreading myself too thick, then too thin, then the worst of all. Doing all of this within the investment section as opposed to the ISA stocks and shares sections. Then realising that T212 is the cheapest and easiest way of doing all of this and a really good platform to practice on. Literally has a practice mode
You get the picture, ultimately I still want to see a return and a dividend yield. If ethical stuff gets me that, I'm in however I do think twice about putting money into say a company heavily focused in cobalt mining in Congo
I must take issue with your C**t pile. Pharmaceutical - big research facilitities, which has resulted in thousands/millions of lives saved - probably including mine Weapons - defending western countries - besides the current defence of Ukraine, which is main boost to current spending and raising their attraction. Probably would have lost to Hitler had there not been a private weapons industry Animal testing - for cosmetics I agree. Life saving for humans though? Again I might be about to go on a cancer drug trial. Certainly wouldn't rule out animal testing here.
Mate it isnt meant to be all encompassing, its stereotypes. Everything exists in the grey, what pile would you put amazon in? Provide loads of jobs, deliver shit to us almost 24/7 but also are pretty brutal to work for and have obliterated loads of small business. Purdue pharmaceutical. Pioneered pain medication for lots of people. Brushed over the addictiveness of the products they were very shady about putting in the prescription pads of lots of doctors to give to people who maybe needed an aspirin or codeine.
I'm not dismissing what you are saying at all, in fact I'm broadly in favour of the R&D driven by the pharmaceutical industry, its how cures get found. Its also a breeding ground for greedy, unscrupulous bastards.
If I was asked to put some companies in one of two buckets the one researching sustainable regenerative energy woukd go in the nice pie and the big pharmaceutical giant like purdue would be slung in the c*>T pie
Comments
I don't think @FSLN1 posts have been particularly helpful and the suggestions made whilst maybe being ok for some who are prepared to take a massive risk are not helpful to those who find investments, SIPP's, pensions etc a minefield to navigate and seeing as these products are going to shape their futures financially there is a need to be very circumspect with any advice posted.
HSBC. Thinking of buying, as an income stock. As a retail customer I definitely have the feeling they have got their act together, although the app remains disappointingly limited. But retail is just one part of their biz. Currently they are trading at 931p. I missed the chance to get in at 875p. a few weeks back when I first thought of it.
How do those who know the banking sector well (e.g @TelMc32) see their prospects?
But I was really asking about their overall performance and outlook as a business and whether that makes them a buy for someone interested in the dividend.
As an aside, one of my friends is an analyst at RBC and when I mentioned I'd bought them, she said "What did you do that for?". The conversation moved on, but hindsight has validated my purchase. I might follow up with her.
i used to play with a SIPP that had a small amount in, to see if I could beat the funds, which I’m pleased to say I generally did, but it was less than 10% of my overall pensions.
now I’m approaching 53 and will want to draw in a few years I stick to ETF’s and cash.
Hows it working out for you guys coming out of the US......🤔😃.
Eh @PragueAddick ?
A question I rarely see raised in this thread is the ethics behind investment choices.
Would "you" sacrifice profit by avoiding investing in something you (or others) considers unethical?
My lists or now on T212, my pies
The c*"t pie
Weapons companies
Anyone who tests on animals
Companies who have questionable human rights records, history of industrial action
Tobacco
Big pharmaceutical
The nice pie
Sustainable
Ethical
Rewards staff
Invests in renewables
I am making mistakes, getting the occasional hole in one, Rolls Royce, BAE and then learning I'd been being an idiot by firstly using the HL platform to trade shares (expemsive mistake that one) spreading myself too thick, then too thin, then the worst of all. Doing all of this within the investment section as opposed to the ISA stocks and shares sections. Then realising that T212 is the cheapest and easiest way of doing all of this and a really good platform to practice on. Literally has a practice mode
You get the picture, ultimately I still want to see a return and a dividend yield. If ethical stuff gets me that, I'm in however I do think twice about putting money into say a company heavily focused in cobalt mining in Congo
While on holiday I had a notification that I'd won on the premium bonds.
I couldn't check how much as I didn't have my pb number with me.
Turns out I've won £700. My best ever win.
1 x £500
2 × £100
This is on a holding of £22.
Came at a good time as I'd spent more than I wanted on holiday.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2025/aug/12/treasury-targeting-inheritance-tax-reforms-to-help-plug-uk-deficit
Tobacco. Too bloody right. I was always proud to work for an ad agency that refused tobacco (and defence) clients. And when you meet their people close up, as I did when I got out here, you know you’ve made the right call. Something weird happens to the young marketing people who go to work there, attracted by the industry leading salaries.
I'm not the same (I'm talking like a player here but I've been dicking about with investment platforms for just shy of 5 years so am not a complete novice but have made enough howlers to learn the hard way from them) in that picking individual stocks is way too finger in the air and gut-instinct for me. When Ukraine kicked off and it was clear us and other countries would be increasing defence spending picking BAE, Rolls, Lockheed Martin etc seemed like a no brainer however doing so and making juicy profits gave me problems I didn't expect. I could very easily have been driven by greed and sub-consciously hoped for that awful war to escalate or just drag on. Same with the middle east and obviously I'd rather those conflicts got resolved and leaders stopped chucking their people into meat grinders.
However, selfishly I want to retire before I physically can't work anymore so.....
The novo nordisk is an easy one, taking the diabetes work they do and subsequently the discovery of the weight loss drugs is great for prices, humans and the NHS. I know a guy who has lost 8 stone in a year on them. He is saving us/the NHS money because of them.
Then you have the more dark side of pharmaceuticals basically driven by America and their attitude to creating enormous addiction problems with Vicodin, Oxycotin and their ilk.
And then my big punt going on not much more than a bunch that water is going to be something we need to take seriously not in a small part fuelled by the plot for quantum of solace and the big shirt where Dr Bury now solely invests in water. That seems an ethical place to be but as an investment or certainly as a impatient day trade it isnt necessarily a profitable one. Unless you are Liv Garfield or the boss/on the board of one of the other water companies
Personally I have a pretty high threshold for what I consider ethical or morally okay. I've seen first hand through my work the damage that practices commonly used by private equity have on a sector when they come in and take over. Usually leaving massive social damage and government to pay the cost and pick up the pieces.
I wouldn't want to make money on the back of practices like that
Another example is companies that don't pay a living wage or that has used fire and rehire or employs people (e.g. delivery drivers) as contractors to pay below minimum wage. I already boycott the majority of those for purchases so why would i eant to invest in them.
Its difficult because everything is so interconnected and I mostly want to stick to funds and all the major funds include some element of these.
There are some funds (often marketed at Gen z and younger millenials) that are labelled as ethical or sustainable. These often focus on green sector and sustainable practices but there is an element of ethical business practices.
It's always a tightrope and there will inevitably be some things on both sides of that line I don't agree with.
Tax data allays fears of UK non-dom exodus
Pharmaceutical - big research facilitities, which has resulted in thousands/millions of lives saved - probably including mine
Weapons - defending western countries - besides the current defence of Ukraine, which is main boost to current spending and raising their attraction. Probably would have lost to Hitler had there not been a private weapons industry
Animal testing - for cosmetics I agree. Life saving for humans though? Again I might be about to go on a cancer drug trial. Certainly wouldn't rule out animal testing here.
I'm not dismissing what you are saying at all, in fact I'm broadly in favour of the R&D driven by the pharmaceutical industry, its how cures get found. Its also a breeding ground for greedy, unscrupulous bastards.
If I was asked to put some companies in one of two buckets the one researching sustainable regenerative energy woukd go in the nice pie and the big pharmaceutical giant like purdue would be slung in the c*>T pie