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Valley and Sparrows Lane lease extended to 2040
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I learnt some months back, it costs £5000 to£7000 per seat to build a stadium depending on how comprehensive it is outfitted.paulsturgess said:
This is largely true.Henry Irving said:
There's the rub.msomerton said:How much is the land worth, I know that the Archbishop Tennyson School site which is 1.2acres, of Lease Hold and Free Hold land went for £7.8 million in summer 2024.
Roland based his valuation on housing land in Kensington.
Charlton and New Eltham maybe up and coming but they ain't Kensington.
Plus it would be difficult, although not impossible, to get planning permission for housing on the Valley, even harder on Sparrows Lane so that limits their value to developers.
The figure I heard a few (5?) years ago was £20m to £22m for both but I wouldn't swear to that being the case now.
But £20m is something like 35 to 40 years rent assuming £500+ pa so the owners maybe content to extend the lease, giving more immediate security while chipping away at Roland's stubbornness (my own view, not inside info).
But things can change quickly in football as Luton show.
but whilst Roland wouldn’t be able to find anyone else to pay that amount for the land, he could say we won’t be able find anywhere else with a fully built Premier League ready stadium.Luton are spending £100m+ building their new ground.So even if we found a site in the area able to accommodate a stadium…
Willing buyer willing seller, who blinks first etc etc. he’s got his money badly invested but we don’t have anywhere to go too, so….🤷♂️0 -
About the same for a season ticket at Fulham then.msomerton said:
I learnt some months back, it costs £5000 to£7000 per seat to build a stadium depending on how comprehensive it is outfitted.paulsturgess said:
This is largely true.Henry Irving said:
There's the rub.msomerton said:How much is the land worth, I know that the Archbishop Tennyson School site which is 1.2acres, of Lease Hold and Free Hold land went for £7.8 million in summer 2024.
Roland based his valuation on housing land in Kensington.
Charlton and New Eltham maybe up and coming but they ain't Kensington.
Plus it would be difficult, although not impossible, to get planning permission for housing on the Valley, even harder on Sparrows Lane so that limits their value to developers.
The figure I heard a few (5?) years ago was £20m to £22m for both but I wouldn't swear to that being the case now.
But £20m is something like 35 to 40 years rent assuming £500+ pa so the owners maybe content to extend the lease, giving more immediate security while chipping away at Roland's stubbornness (my own view, not inside info).
But things can change quickly in football as Luton show.
but whilst Roland wouldn’t be able to find anyone else to pay that amount for the land, he could say we won’t be able find anywhere else with a fully built Premier League ready stadium.Luton are spending £100m+ building their new ground.So even if we found a site in the area able to accommodate a stadium…
Willing buyer willing seller, who blinks first etc etc. he’s got his money badly invested but we don’t have anywhere to go too, so….🤷♂️3 -
My suspicion is that Duchatelet's valuation of his freehold interest is set by reference to how much money he put into Charlton while he owned it.
As long as he has a lease and property interest that he can value at whatever it is €60m, then the company he invested through dies not show a loss and he can tell himself he didn't lose money in the whole venture.
Maybe his inheritors will feel less passionately about this point and be more amenable to compromise as an asset yielding 1% a year is pretty poor and they would be better off not owning the land/stadium and getting 5% a year off an actual £25m than 1% a year off a notional £50m.12 -
Dave2l said:Roland is making money off his charlton assets and he doesn't have to do anything at all.
Maybe if the sparrows Lane toilets get blocked...he may very reluctantly call a plumber!
He won't call a plumber if our toilets get blocked as it is an FRI lease so our responsibility.
He also isn't making money. His valuation is £50M. The rent is, I think £600Kpa. That is a return (before tax and costs) of 1.2%pa for the last 6 years, so a total return of 7.2% before costs and tax. In that time, inflation is 14.1%. so he has actually lost a lot of money in real terms. It must be one of the worst performing assets he could have chosen to own financially.
Even now, if he could sell for £25M to our owners he could invest that in commercial property in London, buying a diverse portfolio with a running yield of say 7% gross. Over 15yrs that would generate him £40M rent and he still owns the land which may have doubled in value so he has £90M total (obvs less cost/tax)
Instead he holds our assets, earns £9M rent and they double in value to the £50M he wants today. He has £59M (less cost/tax).
This is not in anyway a sensible financial decision for him.
He is a spiteful old man and that's it.15 -
Athletico Charlton said:Dave2l said:Roland is making money off his charlton assets and he doesn't have to do anything at all.
Maybe if the sparrows Lane toilets get blocked...he may very reluctantly call a plumber!
He won't call a plumber if our toilets get blocked as it is an FRI lease so our responsibility.
He also isn't making money. His valuation is £50M. The rent is, I think £600Kpa. That is a return (before tax and costs) of 1.2%pa for the last 6 years, so a total return of 7.2% before costs and tax. In that time, inflation is 14.1%. so he has actually lost a lot of money in real terms. It must be one of the worst performing assets he could have chosen to own financially.
Even now, if he could sell for £25M to our owners he could invest that in commercial property in London, buying a diverse portfolio with a running yield of say 7% gross. Over 15yrs that would generate him £40M rent and he still owns the land which may have doubled in value so he has £90M total (obvs less cost/tax)
Instead he holds our assets, earns £9M rent and they double in value to the £50M he wants today. He has £59M (less cost/tax).
This is not in anyway a sensible financial decision for him.
He is a spiteful old man and that's it.
He is indeed.
Hopefully his kids don't share that characteristic and they'd rather just sell up.
Especially if they don't care about football.1 -
Well he didn't care about football either, certainly not ours, so can't see how that makes a difference, so its just money (and possibly grudge bearing).Dave2l said:Athletico Charlton said:Dave2l said:Roland is making money off his charlton assets and he doesn't have to do anything at all.
Maybe if the sparrows Lane toilets get blocked...he may very reluctantly call a plumber!
He won't call a plumber if our toilets get blocked as it is an FRI lease so our responsibility.
He also isn't making money. His valuation is £50M. The rent is, I think £600Kpa. That is a return (before tax and costs) of 1.2%pa for the last 6 years, so a total return of 7.2% before costs and tax. In that time, inflation is 14.1%. so he has actually lost a lot of money in real terms. It must be one of the worst performing assets he could have chosen to own financially.
Even now, if he could sell for £25M to our owners he could invest that in commercial property in London, buying a diverse portfolio with a running yield of say 7% gross. Over 15yrs that would generate him £40M rent and he still owns the land which may have doubled in value so he has £90M total (obvs less cost/tax)
Instead he holds our assets, earns £9M rent and they double in value to the £50M he wants today. He has £59M (less cost/tax).
This is not in anyway a sensible financial decision for him.
He is a spiteful old man and that's it.
He is indeed.
Hopefully his kids don't share that characteristic and they'd rather just sell up.
Especially if they don't care about football.0 -
PWR everything, but this is positive IMHO. Maybe renting suits the owners at the moment, and we have a home until 2040. The rent is reasonable im lead to believe, whereas shelling out £50m for the assets is mad (the Southall agreement i think?). Think I posted before on another thread that maybe our owners could negotiate a deal to up yearly payments to pay off the "mortgage" on the gound and training ground, which kinda makes sense to me, but it ain't my money and the assets have been separated since before Roland arrived too, so that's worth noting.0
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Good news, shame we need the Prem to buy it back though 😞. But imagine the scenes when we do 🤪0
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He's pulling in €40mn a year in dividends from his Melexis share alone. The rent from The Valley and the training ground is small beer for him.Dave2l said:The value of sparrows Lane will likely double in 15 years. I guess he loves money and wants to further increase children's inheritance.
He has a net worth of £1.3 billion pounds.
He looks like Ed Gein in his Wikipedia profile photo.2 -
I’ll be long gone by then . I just hope I get a good view from the memorial gardens once this big screen is fitted 🤪4
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Roland separated the ownership of the club and assets.YTS1978 said:PWR everything, but this is positive IMHO. Maybe renting suits the owners at the moment, and we have a home until 2040. The rent is reasonable im lead to believe, whereas shelling out £50m for the assets is mad (the Southall agreement i think?). Think I posted before on another thread that maybe our owners could negotiate a deal to up yearly payments to pay off the "mortgage" on the gound and training ground, which kinda makes sense to me, but it ain't my money and the assets have been separated since before Roland arrived too, so that's worth noting.4 -
I was thinking, at least it's your own piss.AFKABartram said:
Taking the positives, at least you’ll still be sitting up :-)DaveMehmet said:Good news. I'll probably be sitting in my own piss in a care home in 15 years time so won't see us leave The Valley again0 -
What do you mean? Club and The Valley/Sparrows Lane were not separated before Roland.YTS1978 said:PWR everything, but this is positive IMHO. Maybe renting suits the owners at the moment, and we have a home until 2040. The rent is reasonable im lead to believe, whereas shelling out £50m for the assets is mad (the Southall agreement i think?). Think I posted before on another thread that maybe our owners could negotiate a deal to up yearly payments to pay off the "mortgage" on the gound and training ground, which kinda makes sense to me, but it ain't my money and the assets have been separated since before Roland arrived too, so that's worth noting.4 -
There's designated agricultural land at the back of us which is worth around £150k, if it had planning permission for housing we're told it would go for 'well north of £5m'.
The family that own it aren't interested in selling it for agricultural value or anywhere close to £150k. Financially they're able to hold onto it for years in the hopes of some or all of it being at the end of a rainbow someday. Maybe that's how RD sees the Valley and Sparrows Lane.
I hope not, but I fear it might just be the case which isn't the most optimistic of outlooks.0 -
I reckon our owners are doing us proud so far as a club? Softly-softly etc...... when the time is right they will purchase the real estate? Meanwhile get firmly established again in the Champ and watch.1
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The railway line, the level crossing, the hump turn in Floyd Road, the in-fill land, the sewer and the cliff aren't going anywhere though, never mind the football club. That's why he's never going to get what he would like.WrightCharlie said:There's designated agricultural land at the back of us which is worth around £150k, if it had planning permission for housing we're told it would go for 'well north of £5m'.
The family that own it aren't interested in selling it for agricultural value or anywhere close to £150k. Financially they're able to hold onto it for years in the hopes of some or all of it being at the end of a rainbow someday. Maybe that's how RD sees the Valley and Sparrows Lane.
I hope not, but I fear it might just be the case which isn't the most optimistic of outlooks.9 -
Lets hope its your own!!DaveMehmet said:Good news. I'll probably be sitting in my own piss in a care home in 15 years time so won't see us leave The Valley again1 -
Money always makes money = Roland the git!...
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I'm sure that I read a few years back that apparently his son was very pissed off at the "abuse" his father had received & the protests in Belgium.Dave2l said:Athletico Charlton said:Dave2l said:Roland is making money off his charlton assets and he doesn't have to do anything at all.
Maybe if the sparrows Lane toilets get blocked...he may very reluctantly call a plumber!
He won't call a plumber if our toilets get blocked as it is an FRI lease so our responsibility.
He also isn't making money. His valuation is £50M. The rent is, I think £600Kpa. That is a return (before tax and costs) of 1.2%pa for the last 6 years, so a total return of 7.2% before costs and tax. In that time, inflation is 14.1%. so he has actually lost a lot of money in real terms. It must be one of the worst performing assets he could have chosen to own financially.
Even now, if he could sell for £25M to our owners he could invest that in commercial property in London, buying a diverse portfolio with a running yield of say 7% gross. Over 15yrs that would generate him £40M rent and he still owns the land which may have doubled in value so he has £90M total (obvs less cost/tax)
Instead he holds our assets, earns £9M rent and they double in value to the £50M he wants today. He has £59M (less cost/tax).
This is not in anyway a sensible financial decision for him.
He is a spiteful old man and that's it.
He is indeed.
Hopefully his kids don't share that characteristic and they'd rather just sell up.
Especially if they don't care about football.0 -
Has anyone actually ever had their chips pissed onKBslittlesis said:
Security (that’s how I see it anyway).WSS said:Don't know what this means other than guaranteeing income for Roland?
Thats a long lease. Be interested to know the monies involved but that will come out.
For me it means I’m not fixating on what Twoshits is going to do next but concentrating on making the best of what we have, which can only help the club going forward.
I’m sure someone will piss on my chips 🙄🤣🤣
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Depends on who's doing the pissing.1
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Thought Richard Murray sold the training ground to himself years ago, so it was separated from the valley itself in ownership. Pretty sure Airman mentioned this on an age old thread. Happy to be corrected of course. COYAstoneroses19 said:
What do you mean? Club and The Valley/Sparrows Lane were not separated before Roland.YTS1978 said:PWR everything, but this is positive IMHO. Maybe renting suits the owners at the moment, and we have a home until 2040. The rent is reasonable im lead to believe, whereas shelling out £50m for the assets is mad (the Southall agreement i think?). Think I posted before on another thread that maybe our owners could negotiate a deal to up yearly payments to pay off the "mortgage" on the gound and training ground, which kinda makes sense to me, but it ain't my money and the assets have been separated since before Roland arrived too, so that's worth noting.
Edit. I suppose really it was Southall who separated the latest incarnation as all he bought (kinda) was the football side of things rather than the land. Roland happy to get rid of the loss making stuff and hang onto the rent for the rest.0 -
YTS1978 said:
Thought Richard Murray sold the training ground to himself years ago, so it was separated from the valley itself in ownership. Pretty sure Airman mentioned this on an age old thread. Happy to be corrected of course. COYAstoneroses19 said:
What do you mean? Club and The Valley/Sparrows Lane were not separated before Roland.YTS1978 said:PWR everything, but this is positive IMHO. Maybe renting suits the owners at the moment, and we have a home until 2040. The rent is reasonable im lead to believe, whereas shelling out £50m for the assets is mad (the Southall agreement i think?). Think I posted before on another thread that maybe our owners could negotiate a deal to up yearly payments to pay off the "mortgage" on the gound and training ground, which kinda makes sense to me, but it ain't my money and the assets have been separated since before Roland arrived too, so that's worth noting.
As I remember it, there was a company that owned two other companies Charlton Athletic FC and Charlton Athletic Holdings, the latter being the Valley and Sparrows Lane.
But the ownership of the grounds and the club were in the same hands under Murray etc al, the Spives and Duchatelet until RD sold the club to the ESI crooks for £1 and kept the grounds for himself.
Sandgaard renegotiated that lease and SE7 partners have just extended it with, according to someone close to the board, no other changes in terms.2 -
I've read and commented on a lot of these views before so not gonna bother going into detail but the valley would be attractive to a developer (the costs do stack up) and would get planning permission IF we weren't there playing football. If that situation ever changed, RD may get somewhere near whatever his true valuation is. Without us moving from the Valley, the land is worth nothing and i can't see the training ground getting permission for anything else even if we moved out of that. I think what the club has done is sensible and hopefully in time a reasonable deal can be struck, as others have said, once RD has handed his businesses over or better still, sold them.0
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Those companies were wholly owned, IIRC, by the PLC which was Murray etc.YTS1978 said:Hmmm...but who were the owners of each Charlton company underneath the parent company i wonder? I jest a little, but its probably a bit more convoluted than what it appears on the surface. Thanks for the insight @Henry Irving good news about no change in the Ts&Cs too.
The point is they weren't owned by separate parties as is the case now.
It was Roland who split them.2 -
Thanks Henry, so maybe a case of creative accounting from RM i guess! Thanks for clarifying 👍Henry Irving said:
Those companies were wholly owned, IIRC, by the PLC which was Murray etc.YTS1978 said:Hmmm...but who were the owners of each Charlton company underneath the parent company i wonder? I jest a little, but its probably a bit more convoluted than what it appears on the surface. Thanks for the insight @Henry Irving good news about no change in the Ts&Cs too.
The point is they weren't owned by separate parties as is the case now.
It was Roland who split them.0 -
A quick Google finds this...so i was kind of right. Seems like a lifetime ago!
https://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/mobile/football/teams/c/charlton_athletic/8001820.stm0 -
He will rule from the crypt for eternity!
Abandon all hope Addicks, there will be no wrestling The Valley and Sparrows from his ice cold deathly grip...1 -
No…….but my fireworks have been on several occasions.charltonbob said:
Has anyone actually ever had their chips pissed onKBslittlesis said:
Security (that’s how I see it anyway).WSS said:Don't know what this means other than guaranteeing income for Roland?
Thats a long lease. Be interested to know the monies involved but that will come out.
For me it means I’m not fixating on what Twoshits is going to do next but concentrating on making the best of what we have, which can only help the club going forward.
I’m sure someone will piss on my chips 🙄🤣🤣 ............... 0
