Its called Football - so ban heading the ball

CombeMartin · January 27

Unfortunately, you'd have to get the rest of the world to agree .

JohnnyJoeyDeeDee · January 27

Coincidentally this morning I started reading ‘State of play’ by Michael Calvin. The first chapter is about Dawn Astle’s campaign about dementia and former footballers. It is a difficult read. The numbers in American gridiron are even more astounding. It does touch on the macho element in football and mentions the bloodied picture of Terry Butcher after a match.

As an aside that has always annoyed me as. I remember he clearly ducked out of a header in the last minutes of that game which nearly cost us a vital goal . His staying on was selfish not heroic

Arthur_Trudgill · January 27

letthegoodtimesroll said:

Arthur_Trudgill said:

Tongue in cheek comment I assume, but I find the long passages of ball-heading, especially at levels below the Prem, a bit boring.

I remember reading that in the early days of football, when half the match was played with Rugby-like rules and the other half with Association-like rules, people used to find it odd that players headed the ball.

It’s not so much as ‘boring’ and more ‘moronic’ when they do that. Most of them haven’t a fucking clue as to how to head a ball in the first place and all that seems to happen is it bounces off their head and loops a few yards forward where some other numpty does likewise and then that sequence goes on repeat a few times. WHY ?

Yes, it's so tedious.

It seems players, sometimes with reason, think they don't have the skill to bring the ball down and do something useful with it, so safest for them is to just head back into the air and let someone else deal with it.

SporadicAddick · January 27

usetobunkin said:

Rothko said:

usetobunkin said:

The balls are the same weight Inflated to the same pressure I believe. So the physics are the same, momentum, kinetic energy etc.
(But I am happy to be corrected if I am wrong.)
But allow people to make informed decisions, but perhaps a "No heading for U16" might be sensible.

The research is saying that yes balls are lighter, but they move a lot quicker now, so any ‘gain’ from weight is gone as they move 10-15 mph faster through the air. The current Puma ball used across the top 4 leagues in the UK a different beast to a Mitre ball from the 90s and a Nike from the early 2000s

The Ball
1. Qualities and measurements
All balls must be:
• spherical
• made of suitable material
• of a circumference of between 68 cm (27 ins) and 70 cm (28 ins)
• between 410 g (14 oz) and 450 g (16 oz) in weight at the start of the match
• of a pressure equal to 0.6–1.1 Amos
I think that has been the weight since the laws were first coded, the "Old" leather balls would increase weight considerably in wet conditions.

As someone that played centre half for 25 years, and headed a few (missed a few as well!) and who still plays vets, I can assure you of one thing - heading a modern football is not in the same league as heading a Mitre Multiplex in 1985. They may be the same shape / weight / pressure but the balls now have give in the material and design. It's also why goal kicks and free kicks travel further than they did.

In answer to the OP question, I'm pretty sure that heading the ball has had no absolutely on me impact so ever what.

blackpool72 · January 27

SporadicAddick said:

usetobunkin said:

Rothko said:

usetobunkin said:

The balls are the same weight Inflated to the same pressure I believe. So the physics are the same, momentum, kinetic energy etc.
(But I am happy to be corrected if I am wrong.)
But allow people to make informed decisions, but perhaps a "No heading for U16" might be sensible.

The research is saying that yes balls are lighter, but they move a lot quicker now, so any ‘gain’ from weight is gone as they move 10-15 mph faster through the air. The current Puma ball used across the top 4 leagues in the UK a different beast to a Mitre ball from the 90s and a Nike from the early 2000s

The Ball
1. Qualities and measurements
All balls must be:
• spherical
• made of suitable material
• of a circumference of between 68 cm (27 ins) and 70 cm (28 ins)
• between 410 g (14 oz) and 450 g (16 oz) in weight at the start of the match
• of a pressure equal to 0.6–1.1 Amos
I think that has been the weight since the laws were first coded, the "Old" leather balls would increase weight considerably in wet conditions.

As someone that played centre half for 25 years, and headed a few (missed a few as well!) and who still plays vets, I can assure you of one thing - heading a modern football is not in the same league as heading a Mitre Multiplex in 1985. They may be the same shape / weight / pressure but the balls now have give in the material and design. It's also why goal kicks and free kicks travel further than they did.

In answer to the OP question, I'm pretty sure that heading the ball has had no absolutely on me impact so ever what.

Are you left footed and can you play at Leicester next Saturday

Starinnaddick · January 27

I don't think it's coincidence that Alan Gilzean, the best header of a football I have ever seen, died from a brain tumour.

bobmunro · January 27

Starinnaddick said:

I don't think it's coincidence that Alan Gilzean, the best header of a football I have ever seen, died from a brain tumour.

Or that the best header of a football I've ever seen in a Charlton shirt, Matt Tees, died after a long battle with dementia.

It it pretty much incontrovertible that excessively heading a football over many years carries a significant health risk. But as others have said, there are more dangerous sports.

Do you accept the risk (with some mitigation for younger age groups) when choosing to play football, or remove the risk by outlawing heading the ball? Football as we know it would be a different game if the latter was adopted.

Extending short-sided football to an older age is in my opinion the best option.

Starinnaddick · January 27

Of course some people will hold the view that people suffer from dementia and alzeimers who have never headed a ball in their lives but a solution has to be found. Hard to believe that batsmen did not have to wear helmets in cricket until fairly recently. The great Viv Richards for example never wore a helmet when batting.

Martinspringle · January 27

Good lord. I bet you use an ergonomic mouse and put hot water signs by your kettle.

For the record, it’s called football because it’s played on feet. Like Rugby Football, American Football, Gaelic football and Aussie Rules.

All of which are far more likely to cause head injury.

addickson · January 27

I'm in no doubt that if football was being codified today, heading the ball would be outlawed, and I don't think we'll be too long away from a footballer getting compensation from a club for making him head a ball to his injury, at which point the football authorities might take it more seriously.

EveryDayAddick · January 27

The Red Robin said:

KingKinsella said:

It's impossible to argue that it's safe to head a football. (-if you've done it already , your opinion is therefore invalid as you have brain damage)
step 1
Time to ban heading the ball until you are physically and mentally an adult- thats about 21 ish.
Physical aspect- the the bones are stronger and fully formed .
After 21 you are a "responsible adult "and can give consent to damaging your own brain.
Step 2
Ban heading completely from all levels of football
Simple-

It’s already banned in youth football.

Yep, my U10 team can't header the ball, it's a stupid rule.

Garrymanilow · January 27

If they were to remove heading tomorrow I wonder how many more stoppages we'd get from players kicking each other in the face trying to bring the ball down. I can't imagine crossing would just exit the game suddenly and no-one is going to stand there politely waiting for it to drop to shin level. It would add an entertaining element of ultra-violence to things

KingKinsella · January 27

Elthamaddick said:

might as well ban Boxing, Rugby etc...I could probably go on

Yep

Making_all_the_noise · January 27

It is a serious issue. Tris Dixon's book, 'Damage' should be read by anyone who wants to dismiss it. That book has led several boxers to retire because they were unaware of the extent of the damage caused by the sport. CTE can only be diagnosed during an autopsy but up to 85% of professional boxers are thought to suffer from brain injuries. It is the dark hidden secret of the industry. Many come across as perfectly lucid in their 40s and 50s and then suddenly it hits them in their 60s. When I say many, by all accounts, if you're put in a room with former boxers it is wildly apparent and hushed up by keeping them largely away from the cameras. Worst cases can be apparent as early as their 20s and 30s.

Repeated blows to the head can be as damaging long term as fewer, more concussive hits. That's where football is at particular risk. There is no safe way to head a ball when the brain is being thrown against the walls of the skull unnaturally. The film 'Concussion' shows how a human brain is not built for regular blows to the skull, even if they are relatively light - it compares the structure of a woodpecker who have evolved a skull 'absorber' specifically so they don't suffer damage to their brains. The damage of light heading is cumulative and irreparable. Yes, the balls were heavier back then but at least half the 1966 WC team had suffered dementia and there are many other examples besides. That is way above the national average.

It isn't clear who will suffer and who won't but the science is perfectly clear that football players are at significantly greater risk of Alzheimers, dementia, CTE, MND, ALS and other neurologically degenerative diseases.

I genuinely am delighted with hindsight that I had to finish playing at 21. Knowing what I do now about CTE, I dread to think what another 15 years or so of heading a ball might have done to me in the long term. If they're telling kids not to head balls, particularly girls who seem to be up to five times more likely to suffer brain injuries from head trauma, then it is progress. There are limits for professional players to head balls in training but it is safe to say, no club monitors it or takes it seriously. That is now gross negligence, given what science has already told us and may lead to significant legal cases down the line. I do watch Lloyd Jones in games, often taking semi concussive head clashes and soldiering on and worry for him long term. God knows how often he heads balls each year, how many times he gets elbows to the head or head collisions. The guy is very committed but he epitomises the type of player who has a very high chance of suffering health wise in the long term. There was a game this year when the medical team should have brought him off but NJ was happy for him to play on because he's so important to the team but that's just plain immoral in my opinion.

We can dismiss it and say, it's overblown and a sign of a soft modern society etc but it isn't a joke when you have to look after someone with those injuries or watch their cognitive decline. If safeguards can be properly enforced it is the right thing to do. No amount of entertainment or macho pride is worth these types of brain injuries.

Carter · January 27

Making_all_the_noise said:

It is a serious issue. Tris Dixon's book, 'Damage' should be read by anyone who wants to dismiss it. That book has led several boxers to retire because they were unaware of the extent of the damage caused by the sport. CTE can only be diagnosed during an autopsy but up to 85% of professional boxers are thought to suffer from brain injuries. It is the dark hidden secret of the industry. Many come across as perfectly lucid in their 40s and 50s and then suddenly it hits them in their 60s. When I say many, by all accounts, if you're put in a room with former boxers it is wildly apparent and hushed up by keeping them largely away from the cameras. Worst cases can be apparent as early as their 20s and 30s.

Repeated blows to the head can be as damaging long term as fewer, more concussive hits. That's where football is at particular risk. There is no safe way to head a ball when the brain is being thrown against the walls of the skull unnaturally. The film 'Concussion' shows how a human brain is not built for regular blows to the skull, even if they are relatively light - it compares the structure of a woodpecker who have evolved a skull 'absorber' specifically so they don't suffer damage to their brains. The damage of light heading is cumulative and irreparable. Yes, the balls were heavier back then but at least half the 1966 WC team had suffered dementia and there are many other examples besides. That is way above the national average.

It isn't clear who will suffer and who won't but the science is perfectly clear that football players are at significantly greater risk of Alzheimers, dementia, CTE, MND, ALS and other neurologically degenerative diseases.

I genuinely am delighted with hindsight that I had to finish playing at 21. Knowing what I do now about CTE, I dread to think what another 15 years or so of heading a ball might have done to me in the long term. If they're telling kids not to head balls, particularly girls who seem to be up to five times more likely to suffer brain injuries from head trauma, then it is progress. There are limits for professional players to head balls in training but it is safe to say, no club monitors it or takes it seriously. That is now gross negligence, given what science has already told us and may lead to significant legal cases down the line. I do watch Lloyd Jones in games, often taking semi concussive head clashes and soldiering on and worry for him long term. God knows how often he heads balls each year, how many times he gets elbows to the head or head collisions. The guy is very committed but he epitomises the type of player who has a very high chance of suffering health wise in the long term. There was a game this year when the medical team should have brought him off but NJ was happy for him to play on because he's so important to the team but that's just plain immoral in my opinion.

We can dismiss it and say, it's overblown and a sign of a soft modern society etc but it isn't a joke when you have to look after someone with those injuries or watch their cognitive decline. If safeguards can be properly enforced it is the right thing to do. No amount of entertainment or macho pride is worth these types of brain injuries.

Tris Dixon's book is such a dark read but brilliantly researched and well written/presented

One of the things MMA heads have often said about the sport, of which I am a fan, and boxing is boxing is far more dangerous and a CTE risk as in MMA a clean kick to the head usually ends the fight or will say fighters aren't taking repeated punches to the head. Watch the Gaethe v Pimblett fight and see if you agree with that or any number of others and whilst I dont disagree someone getting a leg kick or knee to the jaw is waking up 30 seconds later.

Heading a football now in my own opinion is nothing like heading a football in the 80s of 90s and amplified the farther back you go. Not to say its without danger.

I was fairly good at attacking the ball but the ones where the ball comes down with snow on are horrible, you can lose the ball and many a time I've misread where its going and worn one anywhere but an inch above my eyebrows, right on top of the dome, the side of the head and it absolutely rattles your brain. I don't know what the answer is, parkinsons, dementia are awful illnesses and I can't imagine its an easy sell to any young professional, especially one like Lloyd Jones who has got to the level he has by showing a mad desire to get his head to the ball, or Jayden Stockley that they need to not head the ball. Its also a part of the game I love watching.

KingKinsella · January 28

Making_all_the_noise said:

It is a serious issue. Tris Dixon's book, 'Damage' should be read by anyone who wants to dismiss it. That book has led several boxers to retire because they were unaware of the extent of the damage caused by the sport. CTE can only be diagnosed during an autopsy but up to 85% of professional boxers are thought to suffer from brain injuries. It is the dark hidden secret of the industry. Many come across as perfectly lucid in their 40s and 50s and then suddenly it hits them in their 60s. When I say many, by all accounts, if you're put in a room with former boxers it is wildly apparent and hushed up by keeping them largely away from the cameras. Worst cases can be apparent as early as their 20s and 30s.

Repeated blows to the head can be as damaging long term as fewer, more concussive hits. That's where football is at particular risk. There is no safe way to head a ball when the brain is being thrown against the walls of the skull unnaturally. The film 'Concussion' shows how a human brain is not built for regular blows to the skull, even if they are relatively light - it compares the structure of a woodpecker who have evolved a skull 'absorber' specifically so they don't suffer damage to their brains. The damage of light heading is cumulative and irreparable. Yes, the balls were heavier back then but at least half the 1966 WC team had suffered dementia and there are many other examples besides. That is way above the national average.

It isn't clear who will suffer and who won't but the science is perfectly clear that football players are at significantly greater risk of Alzheimers, dementia, CTE, MND, ALS and other neurologically degenerative diseases.

I genuinely am delighted with hindsight that I had to finish playing at 21. Knowing what I do now about CTE, I dread to think what another 15 years or so of heading a ball might have done to me in the long term. If they're telling kids not to head balls, particularly girls who seem to be up to five times more likely to suffer brain injuries from head trauma, then it is progress. There are limits for professional players to head balls in training but it is safe to say, no club monitors it or takes it seriously. That is now gross negligence, given what science has already told us and may lead to significant legal cases down the line. I do watch Lloyd Jones in games, often taking semi concussive head clashes and soldiering on and worry for him long term. God knows how often he heads balls each year, how many times he gets elbows to the head or head collisions. The guy is very committed but he epitomises the type of player who has a very high chance of suffering health wise in the long term. There was a game this year when the medical team should have brought him off but NJ was happy for him to play on because he's so important to the team but that's just plain immoral in my opinion.

We can dismiss it and say, it's overblown and a sign of a soft modern society etc but it isn't a joke when you have to look after someone with those injuries or watch their cognitive decline. If safeguards can be properly enforced it is the right thing to do. No amount of entertainment or macho pride is worth these types of brain injuries.

Making -all the -noise, thank you for your contribution.
I wrote the lead piece in a provocative sort of way-almost jokey- but I sincerely believe that it should be banned, and the modest current steps are not enough. The game would lose a lot as a spectacle but these young men may not realise the damage they are doing.

Charlton fans of old may remember Matt Tees- I do- and the glimpse of his suffering ( and his family) in Alan Shearers BBC documentary. I do not know what the club did if anything to reach out to his family whilst alive- I guess, unfortunately ,they did very little. (I hope someone can put me right on this).

Matt Tees was striker who was very skilled header of the ball and died in a very sorry state in a care home with some sort of dementia (sorry can't be specific).

SantaClaus · January 28

I'd ban it as I hate seeing my 14 year old son heading the ball. Fortunately he usually plays in positions where he doesn't have to do too much heading but after his recent growth spurt and some serious gym sessions that's likely to change which genuinely worries me.

As an aside I just looked up the most famous header of the ball I could remember from my youth Paul Mariner. Sadly he died of a brain tumour aged 68.

hoof_it_up_to_benty · January 28

Brain injuries are not taken seriously enough in sport - increasing prevalence in rugby is alarming and boxing undoubtedly is high risk.
Football needs to be doing more to protect players.

Cognitive decline is alarming to witness and if certain sports add to the risk then more needs to be done to address it.

The protocol for assessing head injuries in football is laughable - players are not protected properly.

addickson · January 28

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/articles/cgm4pwxnxp4o

Article on the Beeb today with their thoughts on what happens next

SuedeAdidas · January 28

blackpool72 said:

I think with the majority of our free kicks, corners and crosses never reaching their intended target we are already ahead of the curve when it comes to not heading the ball.

Thats ok for our team……but the first man defender for the opposition is fucked 😄

Afternoon Delight · January 29

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/articles/cn9z4295qd4o

Interesting article.

KiwiValley · January 29

I played community level football from the age of 5 to 51. I am a big centre back who was known to be super reliable under a high ball or an attacking or defending corner (i was also known to be pretty useless in every other respect).

When i was about 45 years old. I went for a punted goal kick on halfway. I made good and controlled contact with my head but as i landed i saw stars and felt light headed.

I spent the rest of the game light headed and afterwards had a splitting headache. For the rest of the season after a match (and more heading) I would have a headache.

When the season concluded i reflected that i must have got 'lightly' concussed and every subsequent game was topping the injury back up.

I decided to retire from all football (made myself unavailable for club and international representation).

I came out of retirement last year to play in Masters (old fart) football and deliberately avoided heading punted kicks but even corners were still jarring.

So i am retired again and will spend the rest of my life worrying about whether i will get dementia.

I do think there is an issue that needs to be addressed here. For me i loved heading the ball and get immense pleasure watching professionals do something brilliant with their head, but its indisputable that it causes injury of the sort that the body struggles to heal from.

I think children shouldn't be taught it and eventually it will become less of a thing in adult football and one day it can be quietly dispensed with.

Short corners and low crosses will not materially destroy the game. We can move on.

stevexreeve · January 30

addickson said:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/articles/cgm4pwxnxp4o

Article on the Beeb today with their thoughts on what happens next

Are there simple rule changes that might significant inroads into reducing the risk?

For instance, it would be simple to not allow goalies to kick the ball straight out of their hunts. No more punts that come done with snow on them.

My personal favourite rule change would be to not allow the attacking team to head or try to head a pass which has been kicked across the half way line.

The change would keep the game more or less as it is but would discourage defenders from booting the ball up the pitch aiming for a forwards head because the centre backs would always have a free header.

This would hopefully cut out 95% of those "big" headers without introducing ridiculous scrambles to control high balls without use of the head! But it would not stop those beautiful long through balls "over the top of" or between defenders.

Personally, I think this would make the game better although Miles Leaburn might not agree!

You could even extend it to say that any forward pass or corner cannot be headed by an attacking player but maybe that's taking it a bit far!

MuttleyCAFC · January 30

Thinking back to times when I played and felt discomfort, dizzyness which I remember when heading the ball, I think it was exclusively defensive headers when I tried to get distance on the ball from a free header. It wasn't that often as I was a midfielder. I scored quite a few headers in my time and never felt discomfort doing so other than that. Thinking about it, if you are feeling dizzyness, that can't be good and it isn't just heading the ball but head to head collisions. I remember one of those where my left eye closed up and I continued playing holding a wet sponge. Does this concern me? Maybe a bit. I don't know the relevance but more research has to be done on the modern game. It isn't the same as it was but you still get concusions. Probably not from the ball though. We can't allow our bias and love for the game ignore this issue. I mean, kids are playing it and heading the ball.

Dugdaleclass · January 30

Remember being called a bottler by team mates when I invariably dodged heading the up and under clearance kick from the opposition keeper. I would rather let the ball bounce and risk getting caught out by a nippy winger. So thankful now for being a wimp.

Its called Football - so ban heading the ball

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