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Championship Games 25/26
Comments
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Coventry not been in great form & might bottle it. Though new Jan signings looked to have perked them up. Ipswich may be a good bet to keep Millwall out of automatic promotion spots but they are much more fragile a team, & manager not that great.MillwallFan said:
Can’t see us catching either of those two. Two great teams and a great advert for the championship. This is what we have to aspire to if we want to get out of this league without going through the lottery of the play offs. And to think there were people on this forum (well one person in particular 😉) who said the championship hadn’t really improved much over the years.vff said:Good game & positive advert for Championship. Millwall now 5 points of automatics 👍Millwall are not the best footballing team in the world but have pace down the wings, Azeez is excellent& have grit (unfortunately). Alex McNeil is a tactically astute manager.They will make play offs. Hoping that they drop off form, Azeez is injured, another play off team hits form or Millwall get plain bad luck.Millwall will likely get promoted at some point but hopefully not this year 👍💫2 -
Games like that one convince me the universe likes to abuse Charlton fans. Should’ve been another comfortable one nil until a rash Ramsay challenge let you back in.MillwallFan said:
Haha, against your reserves?? Is that your excuse ?? What did you have, Three or four proper regulars out? We had about 9 actual first teamers out when we met in September and you still couldn’t beat us 😁DOUCHER said:
I don't think it has smarty pants - the fact your lot are up there with such a lack of goals (apart from against our reserves a couple of weeks ago) in the team proves proves the point - its taken u 9 years to build that solid but dull team. The fact burnley are coming straight back down without a whimper shows how you can defend your way through the championship but not the premiership. And let's not start on about the likes of Luton. When we romped to the Championship title in the 99/00 season, we stayed up comfortably. oh, and just a reminder - 141 years - won nothing and only 2 years in the top division and you could still only pull a crowd of 15000 against Arsenal. Your having a good run but smallwall really shouldn't be lecturing us about the quality of the top 2 divisionsMillwallFan said:
Can’t see us catching either of those two. Two great teams and a great advert for the championship. This is what we have to aspire to if we want to get out of this league without going through the lottery of the play offs. And to think there were people on this forum (well one person in particular 😉) who said the championship hadn’t really improved much over the years.vff said:Good game & positive advert for Championship. Millwall now 5 points of automatics 👍
. night night
BTW, still waiting for our post Christmas 1996-style crash that you predicted a couple of months back. It’s only been one defeat in the league since Christmas. Doucher, the Temu Mystic Meg 😂
night mate 👍😁
One day…2 -
It's been great to watch some of the quality football played in Championship this season, but I did love that second Coventry goal last night.2
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In 98 we were up against a forest team led by van hydink or whatever his name was , a middlesborough team with gazza and Merson in and we beat Quinn and Phillips at Wembley - I think the quality has dropped tbh - more money, less quality - Middlesbrough r refreshing to watch as they play good football - either the relegated premiership teams pass it round the back bollox or the defend for your lives stuff - give me football 25-30 years ago any day of the week - and 45 years ago and between the mid 30s and late 50’s - Millwall will blow out soon - Barry bannon 😂😂1
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For me, It depends what you mean by ‘quality’.DOUCHER said:In 98 we were up against a forest team led by van hydink or whatever his name was , a middlesborough team with gazza and Merson in and we beat Quinn and Phillips at Wembley - I think the quality has dropped tbh - more money, less quality - Middlesbrough r refreshing to watch as they play good football - either the relegated premiership teams pass it round the back bollox or the defend for your lives stuff - give me football 25-30 years ago any day of the week - and 45 years ago and between the mid 30s and late 50’s - Millwall will blow out soon - Barry bannon 😂😂In my opinion, that Middlesboro team with Merson and Gazza wouldn’t hold up well against Middlesboro’s team today. Those two undoubtedly hold more skill and class on the ball and are more entertaining to watch but for fitness, speed, stamina, tactical discipline and defensive shape, they’d be out-played.
I’m not saying what you see today is better to watch, just that I don’t believe in the conditions they were in by the time they dropped to the championship, they would be able to cope with the speed and physicality of it.4 -
Agreed. Dropping Gazza and Merson in to the conversation actually helps the argument for why championship is better/stronger now.RC_CAFC said:
For me, It depends what you mean by ‘quality’.DOUCHER said:In 98 we were up against a forest team led by van hydink or whatever his name was , a middlesborough team with gazza and Merson in and we beat Quinn and Phillips at Wembley - I think the quality has dropped tbh - more money, less quality - Middlesbrough r refreshing to watch as they play good football - either the relegated premiership teams pass it round the back bollox or the defend for your lives stuff - give me football 25-30 years ago any day of the week - and 45 years ago and between the mid 30s and late 50’s - Millwall will blow out soon - Barry bannon 😂😂In my opinion, that Middlesboro team with Merson and Gazza wouldn’t hold up well against Middlesboro’s team today. Those two undoubtedly hold more skill and class on the ball and are more entertaining to watch but for fitness, speed, stamina, tactical discipline and defensive shape, they’d be out-played.
I’m not saying what you see today is better to watch, just that I don’t believe in the conditions they were in by the time they dropped to the championship, they would be able to cope with the speed and physicality of it.Yes, both fantastic football minds and great (genius in Gazza) players, but not when they played for Middlesbrough.Merson has even apologised to Boro fans, as he said he was there for money only. Said most games he could barely walk and had no idea what was going on on the pitch. Thankfully, he's turned himself around in later years. But his Boro days are not a good advert for why the championship was better in late 90d.2 -
Middlesbrough won promotion, got to the league cup final, he was named in the team of the season and he also made the 98 England world cup squad. Not bad for someone who could barely walk.stoneroses19 said:
Agreed. Dropping Gazza and Merson in to the conversation actually helps the argument for why championship is better/stronger now.RC_CAFC said:
For me, It depends what you mean by ‘quality’.DOUCHER said:In 98 we were up against a forest team led by van hydink or whatever his name was , a middlesborough team with gazza and Merson in and we beat Quinn and Phillips at Wembley - I think the quality has dropped tbh - more money, less quality - Middlesbrough r refreshing to watch as they play good football - either the relegated premiership teams pass it round the back bollox or the defend for your lives stuff - give me football 25-30 years ago any day of the week - and 45 years ago and between the mid 30s and late 50’s - Millwall will blow out soon - Barry bannon 😂😂In my opinion, that Middlesboro team with Merson and Gazza wouldn’t hold up well against Middlesboro’s team today. Those two undoubtedly hold more skill and class on the ball and are more entertaining to watch but for fitness, speed, stamina, tactical discipline and defensive shape, they’d be out-played.
I’m not saying what you see today is better to watch, just that I don’t believe in the conditions they were in by the time they dropped to the championship, they would be able to cope with the speed and physicality of it.Yes, both fantastic football minds and great (genius in Gazza) players, but not when they played for Middlesbrough.Merson has even apologised to Boro fans, as he said he was there for money only. Said most games he could barely walk and had no idea what was going on on the pitch. Thankfully, he's turned himself around in later years. But his Boro days are not a good advert for why the championship was better in late 90d.1 -
Anyone who thinks this year's Championship is stronger than that 97/98 one is showing a serious lack of footballing knowledge and understanding.
Four top quality sides that year - Forest, Boro, Sunderland and Us – who each would have won this league at a canter.
Millwall are just a few points off automatics with a goal difference of +4 thanks to our shameful late capitulation at the ToolBox.
The Ipswich side that came 5th in 97/98 would be putting four or five past Hull, Derby and the Spanners this season - massive difference in quality.
This is the weakest Championship for a long time IMO - hence the Spanners do have their best chance of promotion for a long time. Fingers and everything crossed they fall just short...3 -
I was a bit too young to have knowledge of the standard of the league at that time, and definitely not enough to do any meaningful analysis or comparisons to today! Forest definitely look to have had a strong squad, and there were clearly some brilliant players spread across the league. I have to admit I think the league today is of a very high standard with a large number of internationals, a huge amount of money floating around and some really brilliant managers too.kinveachyaddick said:Anyone who thinks this year's Championship is stronger than that 97/98 one is showing a serious lack of footballing knowledge and understanding.
Four top quality sides that year - Forest, Boro, Sunderland and Us – who each would have won this league at a canter.
Millwall are just a few points off automatics with a goal difference of +4 thanks to our shameful late capitulation at the ToolBox.
The Ipswich side that came 5th in 97/98 would be putting four or five past Hull, Derby and the Spanners this season - massive difference in quality.
This is the weakest Championship for a long time IMO - hence the Spanners do have their best chance of promotion for a long time. Fingers and everything crossed they fall just short...
Out of interest, how many of our 1997/98 side do you think would be starters for us now? I don't think I'd take more than three or four which leads me to think the league is a lot stronger nowadays, accepting that my historical knowledge is likely more limited.1 -
This is a far tougher league but ironically I think today’s player are less tough than their counterparts. There just seems to be more liberal use of the squad system these days, we didn’t have loads of substitutions, players are probably a lot fitter today but more vulnerable to injury as a result. What that ends up doing is players back then were far more ‘match fit’, probably built up better play understanding with all their teammates, possibly more camaraderie and more confidence with the ball - players are basically all about self-confidence and that’s quickly lost if you are rotated out every time you mess up or get injured.1
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Personally i think only Jones, Bell and maybe Godden if he shows the form from last season would get into the 1997/98 side.elbiglad said:
I was a bit too young to have knowledge of the standard of the league at that time, and definitely not enough to do any meaningful analysis or comparisons to today! Forest definitely look to have had a strong squad, and there were clearly some brilliant players spread across the league. I have to admit I think the league today is of a very high standard with a large number of internationals, a huge amount of money floating around and some really brilliant managers too.kinveachyaddick said:Anyone who thinks this year's Championship is stronger than that 97/98 one is showing a serious lack of footballing knowledge and understanding.
Four top quality sides that year - Forest, Boro, Sunderland and Us – who each would have won this league at a canter.
Millwall are just a few points off automatics with a goal difference of +4 thanks to our shameful late capitulation at the ToolBox.
The Ipswich side that came 5th in 97/98 would be putting four or five past Hull, Derby and the Spanners this season - massive difference in quality.
This is the weakest Championship for a long time IMO - hence the Spanners do have their best chance of promotion for a long time. Fingers and everything crossed they fall just short...
Out of interest, how many of our 1997/98 side do you think would be starters for us now? I don't think I'd take more than three or four which leads me to think the league is a lot stronger nowadays, accepting that my historical knowledge is likely more limited.0 -
RC_CAFC said:
For me, It depends what you mean by ‘quality’.DOUCHER said:In 98 we were up against a forest team led by van hydink or whatever his name was , a middlesborough team with gazza and Merson in and we beat Quinn and Phillips at Wembley - I think the quality has dropped tbh - more money, less quality - Middlesbrough r refreshing to watch as they play good football - either the relegated premiership teams pass it round the back bollox or the defend for your lives stuff - give me football 25-30 years ago any day of the week - and 45 years ago and between the mid 30s and late 50’s - Millwall will blow out soon - Barry bannon 😂😂In my opinion, that Middlesboro team with Merson and Gazza wouldn’t hold up well against Middlesboro’s team today. Those two undoubtedly hold more skill and class on the ball and are more entertaining to watch but for fitness, speed, stamina, tactical discipline and defensive shape, they’d be out-played.
I’m not saying what you see today is better to watch, just that I don’t believe in the conditions they were in by the time they dropped to the championship, they would be able to cope with the speed and physicality of it.
No, probably not, its all relative but that is what we are talking about - relativity - people like our blue chum are blindsided by the money thrown around and don't understand this - the championship, when compared to the premier league is probably further behind than it was 25 years ago - that's the point. Ipswich strolled through the championship a season or 2 ago, then got relegated, Leeds similar for a few years. The championship was the 4th well attended division in Europe 20-30 years ago - no different then to now. It's always been a very competitive division. I consider the prem now to be an international league rather than an English league - as such, you are competing against the best players in the world, not just England and that has increased the gap between the championship and premier league even further - its also made the football boring. Anyway, back to topic - a Millwall fan will always look on the 2nd division with more awe and deference than a Charlton fan and i'm not being taken in by it. We will stabilise this season then push on next. It doesn't take 9 years to build a team that will just miss out on the play offs, don't be fooled by the nonsense.2 -
I’ll be honest, when this debate initially came up (on another thread, before the season started) about how the championship had improved and gone up in standard, I was talking about the last 10 or 15 years, back to the last time Charlton were competing regularly in it. And I stand by that.I can remember bits of the 90’s, but most of it was a blur, so I’d struggle to compare then to now to be totally honest.0
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You want to add a bit of sparkle,a bit of class to your hard working but dull side - would you say Gazza and Paul Merson - even in their early 30's and past their best - would be worse than a 36 year old barry bannan who has spent his entire career in division 2 and 3?stoneroses19 said:
Agreed. Dropping Gazza and Merson in to the conversation actually helps the argument for why championship is better/stronger now.RC_CAFC said:
For me, It depends what you mean by ‘quality’.DOUCHER said:In 98 we were up against a forest team led by van hydink or whatever his name was , a middlesborough team with gazza and Merson in and we beat Quinn and Phillips at Wembley - I think the quality has dropped tbh - more money, less quality - Middlesbrough r refreshing to watch as they play good football - either the relegated premiership teams pass it round the back bollox or the defend for your lives stuff - give me football 25-30 years ago any day of the week - and 45 years ago and between the mid 30s and late 50’s - Millwall will blow out soon - Barry bannon 😂😂In my opinion, that Middlesboro team with Merson and Gazza wouldn’t hold up well against Middlesboro’s team today. Those two undoubtedly hold more skill and class on the ball and are more entertaining to watch but for fitness, speed, stamina, tactical discipline and defensive shape, they’d be out-played.
I’m not saying what you see today is better to watch, just that I don’t believe in the conditions they were in by the time they dropped to the championship, they would be able to cope with the speed and physicality of it.Yes, both fantastic football minds and great (genius in Gazza) players, but not when they played for Middlesbrough.Merson has even apologised to Boro fans, as he said he was there for money only. Said most games he could barely walk and had no idea what was going on on the pitch. Thankfully, he's turned himself around in later years. But his Boro days are not a good advert for why the championship was better in late 90d.0 -
Feels like a totally different league to even our last time up here. The spending has cranked up another notch and the mid table has got a lot more tighter. A lot more European managers and different styles of play too.MillwallFan said:I’ll be honest, when this debate initially came up (on another thread, before the season started) about how the championship had improved and gone up in standard, I was talking about the last 10 or 15 years, back to the last time Charlton were competing regularly in it. And I stand by that.I can remember bits of the 90’s, but most of it was a blur, so I’d struggle to compare then to now to be totally honest.3 -
You couldn't be more wrong. 3 or 4? That 97/98 team would piss this division and as for the 99/00 season - the title would be wrapped up by March.elbiglad said:
I was a bit too young to have knowledge of the standard of the league at that time, and definitely not enough to do any meaningful analysis or comparisons to today! Forest definitely look to have had a strong squad, and there were clearly some brilliant players spread across the league. I have to admit I think the league today is of a very high standard with a large number of internationals, a huge amount of money floating around and some really brilliant managers too.kinveachyaddick said:Anyone who thinks this year's Championship is stronger than that 97/98 one is showing a serious lack of footballing knowledge and understanding.
Four top quality sides that year - Forest, Boro, Sunderland and Us – who each would have won this league at a canter.
Millwall are just a few points off automatics with a goal difference of +4 thanks to our shameful late capitulation at the ToolBox.
The Ipswich side that came 5th in 97/98 would be putting four or five past Hull, Derby and the Spanners this season - massive difference in quality.
This is the weakest Championship for a long time IMO - hence the Spanners do have their best chance of promotion for a long time. Fingers and everything crossed they fall just short...
Out of interest, how many of our 1997/98 side do you think would be starters for us now? I don't think I'd take more than three or four which leads me to think the league is a lot stronger nowadays, accepting that my historical knowledge is likely more limited.1 -
People do tend to look back with rose tinted glasses though. Everything was always better in the old days. It’s human nature. I actually think, as things have developed, football has got progressively better as the years go by. Not necessarily more exciting. That’s one thing I agree with Douchy on, this tippy tappy bollocks along the back line can be very tedious. But I think overall the standard and quality has improved over the years.4
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Absolutely agree that the gap between the Premier League and the Championship is bigger now than it was then.DOUCHER said:RC_CAFC said:
For me, It depends what you mean by ‘quality’.DOUCHER said:In 98 we were up against a forest team led by van hydink or whatever his name was , a middlesborough team with gazza and Merson in and we beat Quinn and Phillips at Wembley - I think the quality has dropped tbh - more money, less quality - Middlesbrough r refreshing to watch as they play good football - either the relegated premiership teams pass it round the back bollox or the defend for your lives stuff - give me football 25-30 years ago any day of the week - and 45 years ago and between the mid 30s and late 50’s - Millwall will blow out soon - Barry bannon 😂😂In my opinion, that Middlesboro team with Merson and Gazza wouldn’t hold up well against Middlesboro’s team today. Those two undoubtedly hold more skill and class on the ball and are more entertaining to watch but for fitness, speed, stamina, tactical discipline and defensive shape, they’d be out-played.
I’m not saying what you see today is better to watch, just that I don’t believe in the conditions they were in by the time they dropped to the championship, they would be able to cope with the speed and physicality of it.
No, probably not, its all relative but that is what we are talking about - relativity - people like our blue chum are blindsided by the money thrown around and don't understand this - the championship, when compared to the premier league is probably further behind than it was 25 years ago - that's the point. Ipswich strolled through the championship a season or 2 ago, then got relegated, Leeds similar for a few years. The championship was the 4th well attended division in Europe 20-30 years ago - no different then to now. It's always been a very competitive division. I consider the prem now to be an international league rather than an English league - as such, you are competing against the best players in the world, not just England and that has increased the gap between the championship and premier league even further - its also made the football boring. Anyway, back to topic - a Millwall fan will always look on the 2nd division with more awe and deference than a Charlton fan and i'm not being taken in by it. We will stabilise this season then push on next. It doesn't take 9 years to build a team that will just miss out on the play offs, don't be fooled by the nonsense.Interestingly, I think the step up from League 1 to the Championship now is about the same as Championship to Premier League then.0 -
The gap has dropped - the few times we ever got relegated to the 3rd division in the 70's we would bounce back within the first year / 2 maximum - because our players were that much better. Drop out of the championship now, you're in a mini league of about 10/12 other clubs all of similar ability. The problem we've had is our baseline level has dropped to league 1 standard due to the years of mismanagement and good players are now something we notice when we get them. How many 'bums on seats' players have we had over the last 10 years? Very very few if any. Hard working, functional grinders mainly - skill levels that most non league players, had they got a lucky break, could quite easily have replaced them. We don't have any now tbh but we're competitive. Next few years we'll need to add a few if we are to start challenging up top. Azeez at Millwall is probably in that bracket but he'll be sold when they miss out - they nearly lost him this window just gone.RC_CAFC said:
Absolutely agree that the gap between the Premier League and the Championship is bigger now than it was then.DOUCHER said:RC_CAFC said:
For me, It depends what you mean by ‘quality’.DOUCHER said:In 98 we were up against a forest team led by van hydink or whatever his name was , a middlesborough team with gazza and Merson in and we beat Quinn and Phillips at Wembley - I think the quality has dropped tbh - more money, less quality - Middlesbrough r refreshing to watch as they play good football - either the relegated premiership teams pass it round the back bollox or the defend for your lives stuff - give me football 25-30 years ago any day of the week - and 45 years ago and between the mid 30s and late 50’s - Millwall will blow out soon - Barry bannon 😂😂In my opinion, that Middlesboro team with Merson and Gazza wouldn’t hold up well against Middlesboro’s team today. Those two undoubtedly hold more skill and class on the ball and are more entertaining to watch but for fitness, speed, stamina, tactical discipline and defensive shape, they’d be out-played.
I’m not saying what you see today is better to watch, just that I don’t believe in the conditions they were in by the time they dropped to the championship, they would be able to cope with the speed and physicality of it.
No, probably not, its all relative but that is what we are talking about - relativity - people like our blue chum are blindsided by the money thrown around and don't understand this - the championship, when compared to the premier league is probably further behind than it was 25 years ago - that's the point. Ipswich strolled through the championship a season or 2 ago, then got relegated, Leeds similar for a few years. The championship was the 4th well attended division in Europe 20-30 years ago - no different then to now. It's always been a very competitive division. I consider the prem now to be an international league rather than an English league - as such, you are competing against the best players in the world, not just England and that has increased the gap between the championship and premier league even further - its also made the football boring. Anyway, back to topic - a Millwall fan will always look on the 2nd division with more awe and deference than a Charlton fan and i'm not being taken in by it. We will stabilise this season then push on next. It doesn't take 9 years to build a team that will just miss out on the play offs, don't be fooled by the nonsense.Interestingly, I think the step up from League 1 to the Championship now is about the same as Championship to Premier League then.0 -
Hard working but dull side? Are you talking about Millwall or Charlton here? Now I’m confused. You didn’t sign Bannon, we did.DOUCHER said:
You want to add a bit of sparkle,a bit of class to your hard working but dull side - would you say Gazza and Paul Merson - even in their early 30's and past their best - would be worse than a 36 year old barry bannan who has spent his entire career in division 2 and 3?stoneroses19 said:
Agreed. Dropping Gazza and Merson in to the conversation actually helps the argument for why championship is better/stronger now.RC_CAFC said:
For me, It depends what you mean by ‘quality’.DOUCHER said:In 98 we were up against a forest team led by van hydink or whatever his name was , a middlesborough team with gazza and Merson in and we beat Quinn and Phillips at Wembley - I think the quality has dropped tbh - more money, less quality - Middlesbrough r refreshing to watch as they play good football - either the relegated premiership teams pass it round the back bollox or the defend for your lives stuff - give me football 25-30 years ago any day of the week - and 45 years ago and between the mid 30s and late 50’s - Millwall will blow out soon - Barry bannon 😂😂In my opinion, that Middlesboro team with Merson and Gazza wouldn’t hold up well against Middlesboro’s team today. Those two undoubtedly hold more skill and class on the ball and are more entertaining to watch but for fitness, speed, stamina, tactical discipline and defensive shape, they’d be out-played.
I’m not saying what you see today is better to watch, just that I don’t believe in the conditions they were in by the time they dropped to the championship, they would be able to cope with the speed and physicality of it.Yes, both fantastic football minds and great (genius in Gazza) players, but not when they played for Middlesbrough.Merson has even apologised to Boro fans, as he said he was there for money only. Said most games he could barely walk and had no idea what was going on on the pitch. Thankfully, he's turned himself around in later years. But his Boro days are not a good advert for why the championship was better in late 90d.0 -
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That’s how I see it. A lot more European managers and a lot more European players.MarcusH26 said:
Feels like a totally different league to even our last time up here. The spending has cranked up another notch and the mid table has got a lot more tighter. A lot more European managers and different styles of play too.MillwallFan said:I’ll be honest, when this debate initially came up (on another thread, before the season started) about how the championship had improved and gone up in standard, I was talking about the last 10 or 15 years, back to the last time Charlton were competing regularly in it. And I stand by that.I can remember bits of the 90’s, but most of it was a blur, so I’d struggle to compare then to now to be totally honest.1 -
And you’re right about the spending. When you were last in the championship our record transfer fee was still the £800k we had paid for Paul Goddard in the late 80’s. We’ve broken it about ten times since then.MarcusH26 said:
Feels like a totally different league to even our last time up here. The spending has cranked up another notch and the mid table has got a lot more tighter. A lot more European managers and different styles of play too.MillwallFan said:I’ll be honest, when this debate initially came up (on another thread, before the season started) about how the championship had improved and gone up in standard, I was talking about the last 10 or 15 years, back to the last time Charlton were competing regularly in it. And I stand by that.I can remember bits of the 90’s, but most of it was a blur, so I’d struggle to compare then to now to be totally honest.0 -
Yes but we're building - in management speak lets say we're in the 'forming' stage - you've gone through the forming and norming stage and should now be in the performing / storming stage - have you got enough goals in your team when push comes to shove and coburn has to hold his nerveMillwallFan said:
Hard working but dull side? Are you talking about Millwall or Charlton here? Now I’m confused. You didn’t sign Bannon, we did.DOUCHER said:
You want to add a bit of sparkle,a bit of class to your hard working but dull side - would you say Gazza and Paul Merson - even in their early 30's and past their best - would be worse than a 36 year old barry bannan who has spent his entire career in division 2 and 3?stoneroses19 said:
Agreed. Dropping Gazza and Merson in to the conversation actually helps the argument for why championship is better/stronger now.RC_CAFC said:
For me, It depends what you mean by ‘quality’.DOUCHER said:In 98 we were up against a forest team led by van hydink or whatever his name was , a middlesborough team with gazza and Merson in and we beat Quinn and Phillips at Wembley - I think the quality has dropped tbh - more money, less quality - Middlesbrough r refreshing to watch as they play good football - either the relegated premiership teams pass it round the back bollox or the defend for your lives stuff - give me football 25-30 years ago any day of the week - and 45 years ago and between the mid 30s and late 50’s - Millwall will blow out soon - Barry bannon 😂😂In my opinion, that Middlesboro team with Merson and Gazza wouldn’t hold up well against Middlesboro’s team today. Those two undoubtedly hold more skill and class on the ball and are more entertaining to watch but for fitness, speed, stamina, tactical discipline and defensive shape, they’d be out-played.
I’m not saying what you see today is better to watch, just that I don’t believe in the conditions they were in by the time they dropped to the championship, they would be able to cope with the speed and physicality of it.Yes, both fantastic football minds and great (genius in Gazza) players, but not when they played for Middlesbrough.Merson has even apologised to Boro fans, as he said he was there for money only. Said most games he could barely walk and had no idea what was going on on the pitch. Thankfully, he's turned himself around in later years. But his Boro days are not a good advert for why the championship was better in late 90d. ? 1 -
elbiglad said:
I was a bit too young to have knowledge of the standard of the league at that time, and definitely not enough to do any meaningful analysis or comparisons to today! Forest definitely look to have had a strong squad, and there were clearly some brilliant players spread across the league. I have to admit I think the league today is of a very high standard with a large number of internationals, a huge amount of money floating around and some really brilliant managers too.kinveachyaddick said:Anyone who thinks this year's Championship is stronger than that 97/98 one is showing a serious lack of footballing knowledge and understanding.
Four top quality sides that year - Forest, Boro, Sunderland and Us – who each would have won this league at a canter.
Millwall are just a few points off automatics with a goal difference of +4 thanks to our shameful late capitulation at the ToolBox.
The Ipswich side that came 5th in 97/98 would be putting four or five past Hull, Derby and the Spanners this season - massive difference in quality.
This is the weakest Championship for a long time IMO - hence the Spanners do have their best chance of promotion for a long time. Fingers and everything crossed they fall just short...
Out of interest, how many of our 1997/98 side do you think would be starters for us now? I don't think I'd take more than three or four which leads me to think the league is a lot stronger nowadays, accepting that my historical knowledge is likely more limited.
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Interesting. It's very hard to compare eras / generations. I guess you may be looking at those players relative to the era and I'm doing a direct comparison for their ability then v ability of players today.DOUCHER said:
You couldn't be more wrong. 3 or 4? That 97/98 team would piss this division and as for the 99/00 season - the title would be wrapped up by March.elbiglad said:
I was a bit too young to have knowledge of the standard of the league at that time, and definitely not enough to do any meaningful analysis or comparisons to today! Forest definitely look to have had a strong squad, and there were clearly some brilliant players spread across the league. I have to admit I think the league today is of a very high standard with a large number of internationals, a huge amount of money floating around and some really brilliant managers too.kinveachyaddick said:Anyone who thinks this year's Championship is stronger than that 97/98 one is showing a serious lack of footballing knowledge and understanding.
Four top quality sides that year - Forest, Boro, Sunderland and Us – who each would have won this league at a canter.
Millwall are just a few points off automatics with a goal difference of +4 thanks to our shameful late capitulation at the ToolBox.
The Ipswich side that came 5th in 97/98 would be putting four or five past Hull, Derby and the Spanners this season - massive difference in quality.
This is the weakest Championship for a long time IMO - hence the Spanners do have their best chance of promotion for a long time. Fingers and everything crossed they fall just short...
Out of interest, how many of our 1997/98 side do you think would be starters for us now? I don't think I'd take more than three or four which leads me to think the league is a lot stronger nowadays, accepting that my historical knowledge is likely more limited.
Danny Mills had a brilliant career and played for his country, but is he a premier league right back today? Is he even a top end right back in the Champ? I'm not so sure he is. He's definitely nowhere near the England squad that Trent Alexander Arnold can't even get near. Is Eddie Youds starting in a team that pisses this division? I think Bell could probably play centre midfield for us back in those days, he's that good on the ball - he'd walk in at left back. There's not a better athlete than Ramsay or TC in that squad. Neil Heaney started in the playoff final. Steve Jones was the attacking sub off the bench for a 36 year old Mark Bright. I'd have Kaminski over Ilic 100%.
I'll give you Kinsella, Rufus, and Mendonca as starters. But I think the rest of the starting XI is not quite as clear cut as you're making out.
I don't know the last time you watched the playoff final or games from that era, but if you watch them again I think you'd be surprised at the lack of quality some players have on the ball. Some of the CMs make Docherty look like Pirlo. The amount that has changed in 20-25 years in terms of coaching, sports science and the influx of international talent would suggest the players of today are likely to be a lot better. It's human evolution. I don't know if you watched the Coventry v Middlesbrough game last night, but I don't think our team from either of those years 'pisses this division' against that calibre of opposition.
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Our team from 1998 would slaughter our current side.0
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Well, we’re third in the league despite having one of the smallest budgets so we must be doing something right.DOUCHER said:
Yes but we're building - in management speak lets say we're in the 'forming' stage - you've gone through the forming and norming stage and should now be in the performing / storming stage - have you got enough goals in your team when push comes to shove and coburn has to hold his nerveMillwallFan said:
Hard working but dull side? Are you talking about Millwall or Charlton here? Now I’m confused. You didn’t sign Bannon, we did.DOUCHER said:
You want to add a bit of sparkle,a bit of class to your hard working but dull side - would you say Gazza and Paul Merson - even in their early 30's and past their best - would be worse than a 36 year old barry bannan who has spent his entire career in division 2 and 3?stoneroses19 said:
Agreed. Dropping Gazza and Merson in to the conversation actually helps the argument for why championship is better/stronger now.RC_CAFC said:
For me, It depends what you mean by ‘quality’.DOUCHER said:In 98 we were up against a forest team led by van hydink or whatever his name was , a middlesborough team with gazza and Merson in and we beat Quinn and Phillips at Wembley - I think the quality has dropped tbh - more money, less quality - Middlesbrough r refreshing to watch as they play good football - either the relegated premiership teams pass it round the back bollox or the defend for your lives stuff - give me football 25-30 years ago any day of the week - and 45 years ago and between the mid 30s and late 50’s - Millwall will blow out soon - Barry bannon 😂😂In my opinion, that Middlesboro team with Merson and Gazza wouldn’t hold up well against Middlesboro’s team today. Those two undoubtedly hold more skill and class on the ball and are more entertaining to watch but for fitness, speed, stamina, tactical discipline and defensive shape, they’d be out-played.
I’m not saying what you see today is better to watch, just that I don’t believe in the conditions they were in by the time they dropped to the championship, they would be able to cope with the speed and physicality of it.Yes, both fantastic football minds and great (genius in Gazza) players, but not when they played for Middlesbrough.Merson has even apologised to Boro fans, as he said he was there for money only. Said most games he could barely walk and had no idea what was going on on the pitch. Thankfully, he's turned himself around in later years. But his Boro days are not a good advert for why the championship was better in late 90d. ? 0 -
You get to the point at the end - it's all relative - those players would also benefit from the human evolution - we are talking about how good the championship is now, relative to league 1 and the prem, now. It isn't better in relative terms. I think its far worse.elbiglad said:
Interesting. It's very hard to compare eras / generations. I guess you may be looking at those players relative to the era and I'm doing a direct comparison for their ability then v ability of players today.DOUCHER said:
You couldn't be more wrong. 3 or 4? That 97/98 team would piss this division and as for the 99/00 season - the title would be wrapped up by March.elbiglad said:
I was a bit too young to have knowledge of the standard of the league at that time, and definitely not enough to do any meaningful analysis or comparisons to today! Forest definitely look to have had a strong squad, and there were clearly some brilliant players spread across the league. I have to admit I think the league today is of a very high standard with a large number of internationals, a huge amount of money floating around and some really brilliant managers too.kinveachyaddick said:Anyone who thinks this year's Championship is stronger than that 97/98 one is showing a serious lack of footballing knowledge and understanding.
Four top quality sides that year - Forest, Boro, Sunderland and Us – who each would have won this league at a canter.
Millwall are just a few points off automatics with a goal difference of +4 thanks to our shameful late capitulation at the ToolBox.
The Ipswich side that came 5th in 97/98 would be putting four or five past Hull, Derby and the Spanners this season - massive difference in quality.
This is the weakest Championship for a long time IMO - hence the Spanners do have their best chance of promotion for a long time. Fingers and everything crossed they fall just short...
Out of interest, how many of our 1997/98 side do you think would be starters for us now? I don't think I'd take more than three or four which leads me to think the league is a lot stronger nowadays, accepting that my historical knowledge is likely more limited.
Danny Mills had a brilliant career and played for his country, but is he a premier league right back today? Is he even a top end right back in the Champ? I'm not so sure he is. He's definitely nowhere near the England squad that Trent Alexander Arnold can't even get near. Is Eddie Youds starting in a team that pisses this division? I think Bell could probably play centre midfield for us back in those days, he's that good on the ball - he'd walk in at left back. There's not a better athlete than Ramsay or TC in that squad. Neil Heaney started in the playoff final. Steve Jones was the attacking sub off the bench for a 36 year old Mark Bright. I'd have Kaminski over Ilic 100%.
I'll give you Kinsella, Rufus, and Mendonca as starters. But I think the rest of the starting XI is not quite as clear cut as you're making out.
I don't know the last time you watched the playoff final or games from that era, but if you watch them again I think you'd be surprised at the lack of quality some players have on the ball. Some of the CMs make Docherty look like Pirlo. The amount that has changed in 20-25 years in terms of coaching, sports science and the influx of international talent would suggest the players of today are likely to be a lot better. It's human evolution. I don't know if you watched the Coventry v Middlesbrough game last night, but I don't think our team from either of those years 'pisses this division' against that calibre of opposition.1 -
Another well reasoned and insightful post.DOUCHER said:
You get to the point at the end - it's all relative - those players would also benefit from the human evolution - we are talking about how good the championship is now, relative to league 1 and the prem, now. It isn't better in relative terms. I think it’s far worse.elbiglad said:
Interesting. It's very hard to compare eras / generations. I guess you may be looking at those players relative to the era and I'm doing a direct comparison for their ability then v ability of players today.DOUCHER said:
You couldn't be more wrong. 3 or 4? That 97/98 team would piss this division and as for the 99/00 season - the title would be wrapped up by March.elbiglad said:
I was a bit too young to have knowledge of the standard of the league at that time, and definitely not enough to do any meaningful analysis or comparisons to today! Forest definitely look to have had a strong squad, and there were clearly some brilliant players spread across the league. I have to admit I think the league today is of a very high standard with a large number of internationals, a huge amount of money floating around and some really brilliant managers too.kinveachyaddick said:Anyone who thinks this year's Championship is stronger than that 97/98 one is showing a serious lack of footballing knowledge and understanding.
Four top quality sides that year - Forest, Boro, Sunderland and Us – who each would have won this league at a canter.
Millwall are just a few points off automatics with a goal difference of +4 thanks to our shameful late capitulation at the ToolBox.
The Ipswich side that came 5th in 97/98 would be putting four or five past Hull, Derby and the Spanners this season - massive difference in quality.
This is the weakest Championship for a long time IMO - hence the Spanners do have their best chance of promotion for a long time. Fingers and everything crossed they fall just short...
Out of interest, how many of our 1997/98 side do you think would be starters for us now? I don't think I'd take more than three or four which leads me to think the league is a lot stronger nowadays, accepting that my historical knowledge is likely more limited.
Danny Mills had a brilliant career and played for his country, but is he a premier league right back today? Is he even a top end right back in the Champ? I'm not so sure he is. He's definitely nowhere near the England squad that Trent Alexander Arnold can't even get near. Is Eddie Youds starting in a team that pisses this division? I think Bell could probably play centre midfield for us back in those days, he's that good on the ball - he'd walk in at left back. There's not a better athlete than Ramsay or TC in that squad. Neil Heaney started in the playoff final. Steve Jones was the attacking sub off the bench for a 36 year old Mark Bright. I'd have Kaminski over Ilic 100%.
I'll give you Kinsella, Rufus, and Mendonca as starters. But I think the rest of the starting XI is not quite as clear cut as you're making out.
I don't know the last time you watched the playoff final or games from that era, but if you watch them again I think you'd be surprised at the lack of quality some players have on the ball. Some of the CMs make Docherty look like Pirlo. The amount that has changed in 20-25 years in terms of coaching, sports science and the influx of international talent would suggest the players of today are likely to be a lot better. It's human evolution. I don't know if you watched the Coventry v Middlesbrough game last night, but I don't think our team from either of those years 'pisses this division' against that calibre of opposition.2 -
100% - of that starting line up, nearly all had good chunks of their careers in the top divisionsuperclive98 said:Our team from 1998 would slaughter our current side.0
