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Championship Games 25/26

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  • Chris_from_Sidcup
    Chris_from_Sidcup Posts: 36,624
    i think both can be true. Our 1998 side would likely beat the team we have today, but overall i think the league is better today.

    As transfer fees and the money in English football has increased, so to has the level of players teams in this league can sign. Championship teams can now go and spend 5/6/7m on decent quality players from the Dutch league and Scandinavia. Derby who were an average championship team spent 6-7m on a USA national team striker from the MLS. I'm not sure this would've been the case 25 years ago.
  • superclive98
    superclive98 Posts: 4,994
    DOUCHER said:
    superclive98 said:
    Our team from 1998 would slaughter our current side.
    100% - of that starting line up, nearly all had good chunks of their careers in the top division  
    Neil Heaney wasn't really part of that side, Robbo was.
    Of the current squad you could possibly argue that Lloyd Jones could replace Eddie Youds, but that's not a gimmee.
    I woudn't choose any other current player over that 1998 team.
    You also have to remember that Paul Mortimer and Carl Leaburn were part of that squad (Leaburn until Jan).
  • MarcusH26
    MarcusH26 Posts: 9,241
    MillwallFan said:
    MarcusH26 said:
    MillwallFan said:
    I’ll be honest, when this debate initially came up (on another thread, before the season started) about how the championship had improved and gone up in standard, I was talking about the last 10 or 15 years, back to the last time Charlton were competing regularly in it. And I stand by that. 

    I can remember bits of the 90’s, but most of it was a blur, so I’d struggle to compare then to now to be totally honest. 
    Feels like a totally different league to even our last time up here. The spending has cranked up another notch and the mid table has got a lot more tighter. A lot more European managers and different styles of play too. 
    And you’re right about the spending. When you were last in the championship our record transfer fee was still the £800k we had paid for Paul Goddard in the late 80’s. We’ve broken it about ten times since then. 
    I think this is where perhaps we've been a bit I don't want to term it as caught out because I don't think it is that entirely. 

    Spending £3.5m on Kelman for us was a major thing , we'd probably not spent that kind of fee since the prem days or so , even back with Roland's mad European experiments there was a couple of £2m signings but nothing more than that. 

    It feels like nowadays unless you're willing to gamble in unusual markets like Eastern Europe or Scandinavia to find these " undervalued" leagues and players then you're looking at a substantial outlay. 
  • stoneroses19
    stoneroses19 Posts: 7,484
    Chris_from_Sidcup said:
    stoneroses19 said:
    RC_CAFC said:
    DOUCHER said:
    In 98 we were up against a forest team led by van hydink or whatever his name was , a middlesborough team with gazza and Merson in and we beat Quinn and Phillips at Wembley - I think the quality has dropped tbh - more money, less quality - Middlesbrough r refreshing to watch as they play good football - either the relegated premiership teams pass it round the back bollox or the defend for your lives stuff - give me football 25-30 years ago any day of the week - and 45 years ago and between the mid 30s and late 50’s - Millwall will blow out soon - Barry bannon 😂😂
    For me, It depends what you mean by ‘quality’. 
    In my opinion, that Middlesboro team with Merson and Gazza wouldn’t hold up well against Middlesboro’s team today. Those two undoubtedly hold more skill and class on the ball and are more entertaining to watch but for fitness, speed, stamina, tactical discipline and defensive shape, they’d be out-played.

    I’m not saying what you see today is better to watch, just that I don’t believe in the conditions they were in by the time they dropped to the championship, they would be able to cope with the speed and physicality of it.
    Agreed. Dropping Gazza and Merson in to the conversation actually helps the argument for why championship is better/stronger now. 

    Yes, both fantastic football minds and great (genius in Gazza) players, but not when they played for Middlesbrough. 

    Merson has even apologised to Boro fans, as he said he was there for money only. Said most games he could barely walk and had no idea what was going on on the pitch. Thankfully, he's turned himself around in later years. But his Boro days are not a good advert for why the championship was better in late 90d. 
    Middlesbrough won promotion, got to the league cup final, he was named in the team of the season and he also made the 98 England world cup squad. Not bad for someone who could barely walk.
    Hadn't realised he got in team of the year and completely forgot he was at the World Cup. I'd mentioned the stuff I had as he was only recently on a podcast talking about his career and he mentioned how terrible he was at Boro. 
  • elbiglad
    elbiglad Posts: 100
    Chris_from_Sidcup said:
    i think both can be true. Our 1998 side would likely beat the team we have today, but overall i think the league is better today.

    As transfer fees and the money in English football has increased, so to has the level of players teams in this league can sign. Championship teams can now go and spend 5/6/7m on decent quality players from the Dutch league and Scandinavia. Derby who were an average championship team spent 6-7m on a USA national team striker from the MLS. I'm not sure this would've been the case 25 years ago.
    Agreed. It’s a team game, too. The 97/98 team was clearly more than the sum of its parts and may well be favourites to beat today’s team. However I think there’s an interesting debate about the individual talent of players from then vs today, hence why I (politely!) asked the question. I think most would agree that the game has developed considerably in 25 years. 

    I don’t think our team from then would piss this league. 
  • superclive98
    superclive98 Posts: 4,994
    elbiglad said:
    Chris_from_Sidcup said:
    i think both can be true. Our 1998 side would likely beat the team we have today, but overall i think the league is better today.

    As transfer fees and the money in English football has increased, so to has the level of players teams in this league can sign. Championship teams can now go and spend 5/6/7m on decent quality players from the Dutch league and Scandinavia. Derby who were an average championship team spent 6-7m on a USA national team striker from the MLS. I'm not sure this would've been the case 25 years ago.
    Agreed. It’s a team game, too. The 97/98 team was clearly more than the sum of its parts and may well be favourites to beat today’s team. However I think there’s an interesting debate about the individual talent of players from then vs today, hence why I (politely!) asked the question. I think most would agree that the game has developed considerably in 25 years. 

    I don’t think our team from then would piss this league. 
    If it was just a question of talent then the 1998 team is miles ahead.
    If that team had the advantages of the current team in respect of nutrition, facilities, medical support, etc then yes, that team would piss this league.  
  • RC_CAFC
    RC_CAFC Posts: 1,868
    superclive98 said:
    Our team from 1998 would slaughter our current side.
    It’s a really interesting debate and one that can never be proved but if they were to play each other now. I would back our current side to win owing to greater fitness levels and game state.

    Do I think our 98 side were better in their era than our current side now? Yes absolutely. But our current team would scare the hell out of them by Kelman, Carey and TC trying to tackle Rufus and Youds while they were on the ball and they wouldn’t know what was going on! 

    Do I think after a season of conditioning and lifestyle that the players have to adopt now the 98 players could be better? Yes they could.
  • elbiglad
    elbiglad Posts: 100
    edited 3:27PM
    superclive98 said:
    elbiglad said:
    Chris_from_Sidcup said:
    i think both can be true. Our 1998 side would likely beat the team we have today, but overall i think the league is better today.

    As transfer fees and the money in English football has increased, so to has the level of players teams in this league can sign. Championship teams can now go and spend 5/6/7m on decent quality players from the Dutch league and Scandinavia. Derby who were an average championship team spent 6-7m on a USA national team striker from the MLS. I'm not sure this would've been the case 25 years ago.
    Agreed. It’s a team game, too. The 97/98 team was clearly more than the sum of its parts and may well be favourites to beat today’s team. However I think there’s an interesting debate about the individual talent of players from then vs today, hence why I (politely!) asked the question. I think most would agree that the game has developed considerably in 25 years. 

    I don’t think our team from then would piss this league. 
    If it was just a question of talent then the 1998 team is miles ahead.
    If that team had the advantages of the current team in respect of nutrition, facilities, medical support, etc then yes, that team would piss this league.  
    Respectfully disagree. Perhaps I should've been clearer in my original post that I was talking about how players would fit into today's team, though did try to clarify in a follow up.

    I am not someone who thinks the older teams played without tactics, and I fully acknowledge that modern terms such as 'high press', 'inverted full backs' and 'low block' are primarily used to try and make people sound smart when talking about tactics. But I do believe there have been huge tactical developments, such as the way teams set up in and out of possession, and technical improvements, look at the ability of defenders and keepers with the ball, that would give today's average Championship team a big advantage over its counterpart from 25 years ago. These players have been coached differently since they were kids. The influx of foreign talent has brought the level up considerably. All of that before you even factor in physical and conditioning improvements.

  • bobmunro
    bobmunro Posts: 21,315
    DOUCHER said:
    MillwallFan said:
    DOUCHER said:
    stoneroses19 said:
    RC_CAFC said:
    DOUCHER said:
    In 98 we were up against a forest team led by van hydink or whatever his name was , a middlesborough team with gazza and Merson in and we beat Quinn and Phillips at Wembley - I think the quality has dropped tbh - more money, less quality - Middlesbrough r refreshing to watch as they play good football - either the relegated premiership teams pass it round the back bollox or the defend for your lives stuff - give me football 25-30 years ago any day of the week - and 45 years ago and between the mid 30s and late 50’s - Millwall will blow out soon - Barry bannon 😂😂
    For me, It depends what you mean by ‘quality’. 
    In my opinion, that Middlesboro team with Merson and Gazza wouldn’t hold up well against Middlesboro’s team today. Those two undoubtedly hold more skill and class on the ball and are more entertaining to watch but for fitness, speed, stamina, tactical discipline and defensive shape, they’d be out-played.

    I’m not saying what you see today is better to watch, just that I don’t believe in the conditions they were in by the time they dropped to the championship, they would be able to cope with the speed and physicality of it.
    Agreed. Dropping Gazza and Merson in to the conversation actually helps the argument for why championship is better/stronger now. 

    Yes, both fantastic football minds and great (genius in Gazza) players, but not when they played for Middlesbrough. 

    Merson has even apologised to Boro fans, as he said he was there for money only. Said most games he could barely walk and had no idea what was going on on the pitch. Thankfully, he's turned himself around in later years. But his Boro days are not a good advert for why the championship was better in late 90d. 
    You want to add a bit of sparkle,a bit of class to your hard working but dull side - would you say Gazza and Paul Merson - even in their early 30's and past their best - would be worse than a 36 year old barry bannan who has spent his entire career in division 2 and 3? 
    Hard working but dull side? Are you talking about Millwall or Charlton here? Now I’m confused. You didn’t sign Bannon, we did. 
    Yes but we're building - in management speak lets say we're in the 'forming' stage - you've gone through the forming and norming stage and should now be in the performing / storming stage - have you got enough goals in your team when push comes to shove and coburn has to hold his nerve :D ?  

    If you are going to refer to Tuckman then at least get the order correct!


  • killerandflash
    killerandflash Posts: 71,057
    Modern defenders and keepers might be better on the ball, but I bet the ones from 1998 would deal with corners and long throws way better!

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  • aliwibble
    aliwibble Posts: 28,142
    RC_CAFC said:
    superclive98 said:
    Our team from 1998 would slaughter our current side.
    It’s a really interesting debate and one that can never be proved but if they were to play each other now. I would back our current side to win owing to greater fitness levels and game state.

    Do I think our 98 side were better in their era than our current side now? Yes absolutely. But our current team would scare the hell out of them by Kelman, Carey and TC trying to tackle Rufus and Youds while they were on the ball and they wouldn’t know what was going on! 

    Do I think after a season of conditioning and lifestyle that the players have to adopt now the 98 players could be better? Yes they could.
    It'd also depend on what interpretation of the rules we're using. Back then I think Kelman, Carey and TC would only have got away with trying to tackle Youds the once before being reminded in no uncertain terms that that was a silly thing to do. These days he'd probably be off in the first half.
  • CaptainRobbo
    CaptainRobbo Posts: 1,496
    superclive98 said:
    Our team from 1998 would slaughter our current side.
    They are in their 50s now.
  • fenaddick
    fenaddick Posts: 15,740
    aliwibble said:
    RC_CAFC said:
    superclive98 said:
    Our team from 1998 would slaughter our current side.
    It’s a really interesting debate and one that can never be proved but if they were to play each other now. I would back our current side to win owing to greater fitness levels and game state.

    Do I think our 98 side were better in their era than our current side now? Yes absolutely. But our current team would scare the hell out of them by Kelman, Carey and TC trying to tackle Rufus and Youds while they were on the ball and they wouldn’t know what was going on! 

    Do I think after a season of conditioning and lifestyle that the players have to adopt now the 98 players could be better? Yes they could.
    It'd also depend on what interpretation of the rules we're using. Back then I think Kelman, Carey and TC would only have got away with trying to tackle Youds the once before being reminded in no uncertain terms that that was a silly thing to do. These days he'd probably be off in the first half.
    Ramsay would get snapped in half with some of the things he does with the ball at his feet 
  • DOUCHER
    DOUCHER Posts: 8,580
    bobmunro said:
    DOUCHER said:
    MillwallFan said:
    DOUCHER said:
    stoneroses19 said:
    RC_CAFC said:
    DOUCHER said:
    In 98 we were up against a forest team led by van hydink or whatever his name was , a middlesborough team with gazza and Merson in and we beat Quinn and Phillips at Wembley - I think the quality has dropped tbh - more money, less quality - Middlesbrough r refreshing to watch as they play good football - either the relegated premiership teams pass it round the back bollox or the defend for your lives stuff - give me football 25-30 years ago any day of the week - and 45 years ago and between the mid 30s and late 50’s - Millwall will blow out soon - Barry bannon 😂😂
    For me, It depends what you mean by ‘quality’. 
    In my opinion, that Middlesboro team with Merson and Gazza wouldn’t hold up well against Middlesboro’s team today. Those two undoubtedly hold more skill and class on the ball and are more entertaining to watch but for fitness, speed, stamina, tactical discipline and defensive shape, they’d be out-played.

    I’m not saying what you see today is better to watch, just that I don’t believe in the conditions they were in by the time they dropped to the championship, they would be able to cope with the speed and physicality of it.
    Agreed. Dropping Gazza and Merson in to the conversation actually helps the argument for why championship is better/stronger now. 

    Yes, both fantastic football minds and great (genius in Gazza) players, but not when they played for Middlesbrough. 

    Merson has even apologised to Boro fans, as he said he was there for money only. Said most games he could barely walk and had no idea what was going on on the pitch. Thankfully, he's turned himself around in later years. But his Boro days are not a good advert for why the championship was better in late 90d. 
    You want to add a bit of sparkle,a bit of class to your hard working but dull side - would you say Gazza and Paul Merson - even in their early 30's and past their best - would be worse than a 36 year old barry bannan who has spent his entire career in division 2 and 3? 
    Hard working but dull side? Are you talking about Millwall or Charlton here? Now I’m confused. You didn’t sign Bannon, we did. 
    Yes but we're building - in management speak lets say we're in the 'forming' stage - you've gone through the forming and norming stage and should now be in the performing / storming stage - have you got enough goals in your team when push comes to shove and coburn has to hold his nerve :D ?  

    If you are going to refer to Tuckman then at least get the order correct!


    Do need to - it’s all bollox anyway 
  • DOUCHER
    DOUCHER Posts: 8,580
    elbiglad said:
    DOUCHER said:
    elbiglad said:
    DOUCHER said:
    elbiglad said:
    kinveachyaddick said:
    Anyone who thinks this year's Championship is stronger than that 97/98 one is showing a serious lack of footballing knowledge and understanding.

    Four top quality sides that year - Forest, Boro, Sunderland and Us – who each would have won this league at a canter.

    Millwall are just a few points off automatics with a goal difference of +4 thanks to our shameful late capitulation at the ToolBox.

    The Ipswich side that came 5th in 97/98 would be putting four or five past Hull, Derby and the Spanners this season - massive difference in quality.

    This is the weakest Championship for a long time IMO - hence the Spanners do have their best chance of promotion for a long time. Fingers and everything crossed they fall just short...
    I was a bit too young to have knowledge of the standard of the league at that time, and definitely not enough to do any meaningful analysis or comparisons to today! Forest definitely look to have had a strong squad, and there were clearly some brilliant players spread across the league. I have to admit I think the league today is of a very high standard with a large number of internationals, a huge amount of money floating around and some really brilliant managers too.

    Out of interest, how many of our 1997/98 side do you think would be starters for us now? I don't think I'd take more than three or four which leads me to think the league is a lot stronger nowadays, accepting that my historical knowledge is likely more limited.
    You couldn't be more wrong. 3 or 4? That 97/98 team would piss this division and as for the 99/00 season - the title would be wrapped up by March. 
    Interesting. It's very hard to compare eras / generations. I guess you may be looking at those players relative to the era and I'm doing a direct comparison for their ability then v ability of players today.

    Danny Mills had a brilliant career and played for his country, but is he a premier league right back today? Is he even a top end right back in the Champ? I'm not so sure he is. He's definitely nowhere near the England squad that Trent Alexander Arnold can't even get near. Is Eddie Youds starting in a team that pisses this division?  I think Bell could probably play centre midfield for us back in those days, he's that good on the ball - he'd walk in at left back. There's not a better athlete than Ramsay or TC in that squad. Neil Heaney started in the playoff final. Steve Jones was the attacking sub off the bench for a 36 year old Mark Bright. I'd have Kaminski over Ilic 100%.

    I'll give you Kinsella, Rufus, and Mendonca as starters. But I think the rest of the starting XI is not quite as clear cut as you're making out.

    I don't know the last time you watched the playoff final or games from that era, but if you watch them again I think you'd be surprised at the lack of quality some players have on the ball. Some of the CMs make Docherty look like Pirlo. The amount that has changed in 20-25 years in terms of coaching, sports science and the influx of international talent would suggest the players of today are likely to be a lot better. It's human evolution. I don't know if you watched the Coventry v Middlesbrough game last night, but I don't think our team from either of those years 'pisses this division' against that calibre of opposition.


    You get to the point at the end - it's all relative - those players would also benefit from the human evolution - we are talking about how good the championship is now, relative to league 1 and the prem, now. It isn't better in relative terms. I think it’s far worse. 
    Another well reasoned and insightful post. 
    Well it took you half a page of rambling to come back to my original point 
  • DOUCHER
    DOUCHER Posts: 8,580
    MillwallFan said:
    DOUCHER said:
    MillwallFan said:
    DOUCHER said:
    stoneroses19 said:
    RC_CAFC said:
    DOUCHER said:
    In 98 we were up against a forest team led by van hydink or whatever his name was , a middlesborough team with gazza and Merson in and we beat Quinn and Phillips at Wembley - I think the quality has dropped tbh - more money, less quality - Middlesbrough r refreshing to watch as they play good football - either the relegated premiership teams pass it round the back bollox or the defend for your lives stuff - give me football 25-30 years ago any day of the week - and 45 years ago and between the mid 30s and late 50’s - Millwall will blow out soon - Barry bannon 😂😂
    For me, It depends what you mean by ‘quality’. 
    In my opinion, that Middlesboro team with Merson and Gazza wouldn’t hold up well against Middlesboro’s team today. Those two undoubtedly hold more skill and class on the ball and are more entertaining to watch but for fitness, speed, stamina, tactical discipline and defensive shape, they’d be out-played.

    I’m not saying what you see today is better to watch, just that I don’t believe in the conditions they were in by the time they dropped to the championship, they would be able to cope with the speed and physicality of it.
    Agreed. Dropping Gazza and Merson in to the conversation actually helps the argument for why championship is better/stronger now. 

    Yes, both fantastic football minds and great (genius in Gazza) players, but not when they played for Middlesbrough. 

    Merson has even apologised to Boro fans, as he said he was there for money only. Said most games he could barely walk and had no idea what was going on on the pitch. Thankfully, he's turned himself around in later years. But his Boro days are not a good advert for why the championship was better in late 90d. 
    You want to add a bit of sparkle,a bit of class to your hard working but dull side - would you say Gazza and Paul Merson - even in their early 30's and past their best - would be worse than a 36 year old barry bannan who has spent his entire career in division 2 and 3? 
    Hard working but dull side? Are you talking about Millwall or Charlton here? Now I’m confused. You didn’t sign Bannon, we did. 
    Yes but we're building - in management speak lets say we're in the 'forming' stage - you've gone through the forming and norming stage and should now be in the performing / storming stage - have you got enough goals in your team when push comes to shove and coburn has to hold his nerve :D ?  
    Well, we’re third in the league despite having one of the smallest budgets so we must be doing something right. 
    No, it just proves my point about how weak this division is compared to even 15 years ago - u wouldn’t have been top 4 with your ‘goals for’ stat  
  • MillwallFan
    MillwallFan Posts: 3,477
    DOUCHER said:
    MillwallFan said:
    DOUCHER said:
    MillwallFan said:
    DOUCHER said:
    stoneroses19 said:
    RC_CAFC said:
    DOUCHER said:
    In 98 we were up against a forest team led by van hydink or whatever his name was , a middlesborough team with gazza and Merson in and we beat Quinn and Phillips at Wembley - I think the quality has dropped tbh - more money, less quality - Middlesbrough r refreshing to watch as they play good football - either the relegated premiership teams pass it round the back bollox or the defend for your lives stuff - give me football 25-30 years ago any day of the week - and 45 years ago and between the mid 30s and late 50’s - Millwall will blow out soon - Barry bannon 😂😂
    For me, It depends what you mean by ‘quality’. 
    In my opinion, that Middlesboro team with Merson and Gazza wouldn’t hold up well against Middlesboro’s team today. Those two undoubtedly hold more skill and class on the ball and are more entertaining to watch but for fitness, speed, stamina, tactical discipline and defensive shape, they’d be out-played.

    I’m not saying what you see today is better to watch, just that I don’t believe in the conditions they were in by the time they dropped to the championship, they would be able to cope with the speed and physicality of it.
    Agreed. Dropping Gazza and Merson in to the conversation actually helps the argument for why championship is better/stronger now. 

    Yes, both fantastic football minds and great (genius in Gazza) players, but not when they played for Middlesbrough. 

    Merson has even apologised to Boro fans, as he said he was there for money only. Said most games he could barely walk and had no idea what was going on on the pitch. Thankfully, he's turned himself around in later years. But his Boro days are not a good advert for why the championship was better in late 90d. 
    You want to add a bit of sparkle,a bit of class to your hard working but dull side - would you say Gazza and Paul Merson - even in their early 30's and past their best - would be worse than a 36 year old barry bannan who has spent his entire career in division 2 and 3? 
    Hard working but dull side? Are you talking about Millwall or Charlton here? Now I’m confused. You didn’t sign Bannon, we did. 
    Yes but we're building - in management speak lets say we're in the 'forming' stage - you've gone through the forming and norming stage and should now be in the performing / storming stage - have you got enough goals in your team when push comes to shove and coburn has to hold his nerve :D ?  
    Well, we’re third in the league despite having one of the smallest budgets so we must be doing something right. 
    No, it just proves my point about how weak this division is compared to even 15 years ago - u wouldn’t have been top 4 with your ‘goals for’ stat  
    After your bizarre and premature predictions earlier in the season have gone totally to pot, you’re clutching at straws here Douchy baby. It’s funny to see. I know it hurts how badly you got it wrong. 
  • bobmunro
    bobmunro Posts: 21,315
    DOUCHER said:
    MillwallFan said:
    DOUCHER said:
    MillwallFan said:
    DOUCHER said:
    stoneroses19 said:
    RC_CAFC said:
    DOUCHER said:
    In 98 we were up against a forest team led by van hydink or whatever his name was , a middlesborough team with gazza and Merson in and we beat Quinn and Phillips at Wembley - I think the quality has dropped tbh - more money, less quality - Middlesbrough r refreshing to watch as they play good football - either the relegated premiership teams pass it round the back bollox or the defend for your lives stuff - give me football 25-30 years ago any day of the week - and 45 years ago and between the mid 30s and late 50’s - Millwall will blow out soon - Barry bannon 😂😂
    For me, It depends what you mean by ‘quality’. 
    In my opinion, that Middlesboro team with Merson and Gazza wouldn’t hold up well against Middlesboro’s team today. Those two undoubtedly hold more skill and class on the ball and are more entertaining to watch but for fitness, speed, stamina, tactical discipline and defensive shape, they’d be out-played.

    I’m not saying what you see today is better to watch, just that I don’t believe in the conditions they were in by the time they dropped to the championship, they would be able to cope with the speed and physicality of it.
    Agreed. Dropping Gazza and Merson in to the conversation actually helps the argument for why championship is better/stronger now. 

    Yes, both fantastic football minds and great (genius in Gazza) players, but not when they played for Middlesbrough. 

    Merson has even apologised to Boro fans, as he said he was there for money only. Said most games he could barely walk and had no idea what was going on on the pitch. Thankfully, he's turned himself around in later years. But his Boro days are not a good advert for why the championship was better in late 90d. 
    You want to add a bit of sparkle,a bit of class to your hard working but dull side - would you say Gazza and Paul Merson - even in their early 30's and past their best - would be worse than a 36 year old barry bannan who has spent his entire career in division 2 and 3? 
    Hard working but dull side? Are you talking about Millwall or Charlton here? Now I’m confused. You didn’t sign Bannon, we did. 
    Yes but we're building - in management speak lets say we're in the 'forming' stage - you've gone through the forming and norming stage and should now be in the performing / storming stage - have you got enough goals in your team when push comes to shove and coburn has to hold his nerve :D ?  
    Well, we’re third in the league despite having one of the smallest budgets so we must be doing something right. 
    No, it just proves my point about how weak this division is compared to even 15 years ago - u wouldn’t have been top 4 with your ‘goals for’ stat  

    It may prove your point, but it may not. It may prove the point that defences are much stronger and better organised now compared to 25 years back.
  • DOUCHER
    DOUCHER Posts: 8,580
    MillwallFan said:
    DOUCHER said:
    MillwallFan said:
    DOUCHER said:
    MillwallFan said:
    DOUCHER said:
    stoneroses19 said:
    RC_CAFC said:
    DOUCHER said:
    In 98 we were up against a forest team led by van hydink or whatever his name was , a middlesborough team with gazza and Merson in and we beat Quinn and Phillips at Wembley - I think the quality has dropped tbh - more money, less quality - Middlesbrough r refreshing to watch as they play good football - either the relegated premiership teams pass it round the back bollox or the defend for your lives stuff - give me football 25-30 years ago any day of the week - and 45 years ago and between the mid 30s and late 50’s - Millwall will blow out soon - Barry bannon 😂😂
    For me, It depends what you mean by ‘quality’. 
    In my opinion, that Middlesboro team with Merson and Gazza wouldn’t hold up well against Middlesboro’s team today. Those two undoubtedly hold more skill and class on the ball and are more entertaining to watch but for fitness, speed, stamina, tactical discipline and defensive shape, they’d be out-played.

    I’m not saying what you see today is better to watch, just that I don’t believe in the conditions they were in by the time they dropped to the championship, they would be able to cope with the speed and physicality of it.
    Agreed. Dropping Gazza and Merson in to the conversation actually helps the argument for why championship is better/stronger now. 

    Yes, both fantastic football minds and great (genius in Gazza) players, but not when they played for Middlesbrough. 

    Merson has even apologised to Boro fans, as he said he was there for money only. Said most games he could barely walk and had no idea what was going on on the pitch. Thankfully, he's turned himself around in later years. But his Boro days are not a good advert for why the championship was better in late 90d. 
    You want to add a bit of sparkle,a bit of class to your hard working but dull side - would you say Gazza and Paul Merson - even in their early 30's and past their best - would be worse than a 36 year old barry bannan who has spent his entire career in division 2 and 3? 
    Hard working but dull side? Are you talking about Millwall or Charlton here? Now I’m confused. You didn’t sign Bannon, we did. 
    Yes but we're building - in management speak lets say we're in the 'forming' stage - you've gone through the forming and norming stage and should now be in the performing / storming stage - have you got enough goals in your team when push comes to shove and coburn has to hold his nerve :D ?  
    Well, we’re third in the league despite having one of the smallest budgets so we must be doing something right. 
    No, it just proves my point about how weak this division is compared to even 15 years ago - u wouldn’t have been top 4 with your ‘goals for’ stat  
    After your bizarre and premature predictions earlier in the season have gone totally to pot, you’re clutching at straws here Douchy baby. It’s funny to see. I know it hurts how badly you got it wrong. 
    No, 141 years and nothing  - that’s funny - what did I say at the start of the season ? Well stay up, u won’t go up - what’s changed ? 2 years in the top division out of 141 - that’s very funny - oh and coburn 😂😂😂
  • DOUCHER
    DOUCHER Posts: 8,580
    bobmunro said:
    DOUCHER said:
    MillwallFan said:
    DOUCHER said:
    MillwallFan said:
    DOUCHER said:
    stoneroses19 said:
    RC_CAFC said:
    DOUCHER said:
    In 98 we were up against a forest team led by van hydink or whatever his name was , a middlesborough team with gazza and Merson in and we beat Quinn and Phillips at Wembley - I think the quality has dropped tbh - more money, less quality - Middlesbrough r refreshing to watch as they play good football - either the relegated premiership teams pass it round the back bollox or the defend for your lives stuff - give me football 25-30 years ago any day of the week - and 45 years ago and between the mid 30s and late 50’s - Millwall will blow out soon - Barry bannon 😂😂
    For me, It depends what you mean by ‘quality’. 
    In my opinion, that Middlesboro team with Merson and Gazza wouldn’t hold up well against Middlesboro’s team today. Those two undoubtedly hold more skill and class on the ball and are more entertaining to watch but for fitness, speed, stamina, tactical discipline and defensive shape, they’d be out-played.

    I’m not saying what you see today is better to watch, just that I don’t believe in the conditions they were in by the time they dropped to the championship, they would be able to cope with the speed and physicality of it.
    Agreed. Dropping Gazza and Merson in to the conversation actually helps the argument for why championship is better/stronger now. 

    Yes, both fantastic football minds and great (genius in Gazza) players, but not when they played for Middlesbrough. 

    Merson has even apologised to Boro fans, as he said he was there for money only. Said most games he could barely walk and had no idea what was going on on the pitch. Thankfully, he's turned himself around in later years. But his Boro days are not a good advert for why the championship was better in late 90d. 
    You want to add a bit of sparkle,a bit of class to your hard working but dull side - would you say Gazza and Paul Merson - even in their early 30's and past their best - would be worse than a 36 year old barry bannan who has spent his entire career in division 2 and 3? 
    Hard working but dull side? Are you talking about Millwall or Charlton here? Now I’m confused. You didn’t sign Bannon, we did. 
    Yes but we're building - in management speak lets say we're in the 'forming' stage - you've gone through the forming and norming stage and should now be in the performing / storming stage - have you got enough goals in your team when push comes to shove and coburn has to hold his nerve :D ?  
    Well, we’re third in the league despite having one of the smallest budgets so we must be doing something right. 
    No, it just proves my point about how weak this division is compared to even 15 years ago - u wouldn’t have been top 4 with your ‘goals for’ stat  

    It may prove your point, but it may not. It may prove the point that defences are much stronger and better organised now compared to 25 years back.
    Oh yeah, thanks Bob - hadn’t thought of that - I retract everything whatever it is just in case there is an alternative view 👍

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  • bobmunro
    bobmunro Posts: 21,315
    DOUCHER said:
    bobmunro said:
    DOUCHER said:
    MillwallFan said:
    DOUCHER said:
    MillwallFan said:
    DOUCHER said:
    stoneroses19 said:
    RC_CAFC said:
    DOUCHER said:
    In 98 we were up against a forest team led by van hydink or whatever his name was , a middlesborough team with gazza and Merson in and we beat Quinn and Phillips at Wembley - I think the quality has dropped tbh - more money, less quality - Middlesbrough r refreshing to watch as they play good football - either the relegated premiership teams pass it round the back bollox or the defend for your lives stuff - give me football 25-30 years ago any day of the week - and 45 years ago and between the mid 30s and late 50’s - Millwall will blow out soon - Barry bannon 😂😂
    For me, It depends what you mean by ‘quality’. 
    In my opinion, that Middlesboro team with Merson and Gazza wouldn’t hold up well against Middlesboro’s team today. Those two undoubtedly hold more skill and class on the ball and are more entertaining to watch but for fitness, speed, stamina, tactical discipline and defensive shape, they’d be out-played.

    I’m not saying what you see today is better to watch, just that I don’t believe in the conditions they were in by the time they dropped to the championship, they would be able to cope with the speed and physicality of it.
    Agreed. Dropping Gazza and Merson in to the conversation actually helps the argument for why championship is better/stronger now. 

    Yes, both fantastic football minds and great (genius in Gazza) players, but not when they played for Middlesbrough. 

    Merson has even apologised to Boro fans, as he said he was there for money only. Said most games he could barely walk and had no idea what was going on on the pitch. Thankfully, he's turned himself around in later years. But his Boro days are not a good advert for why the championship was better in late 90d. 
    You want to add a bit of sparkle,a bit of class to your hard working but dull side - would you say Gazza and Paul Merson - even in their early 30's and past their best - would be worse than a 36 year old barry bannan who has spent his entire career in division 2 and 3? 
    Hard working but dull side? Are you talking about Millwall or Charlton here? Now I’m confused. You didn’t sign Bannon, we did. 
    Yes but we're building - in management speak lets say we're in the 'forming' stage - you've gone through the forming and norming stage and should now be in the performing / storming stage - have you got enough goals in your team when push comes to shove and coburn has to hold his nerve :D ?  
    Well, we’re third in the league despite having one of the smallest budgets so we must be doing something right. 
    No, it just proves my point about how weak this division is compared to even 15 years ago - u wouldn’t have been top 4 with your ‘goals for’ stat  

    It may prove your point, but it may not. It may prove the point that defences are much stronger and better organised now compared to 25 years back.
    Oh yeah, thanks Bob - hadn’t thought of that - I retract everything whatever it is just in case there is an alternative view 👍

    There is always an alternative view when comparing apples with oranges.
  • Garrymanilow
    Garrymanilow Posts: 13,857
    Christ, you know the relegation fears have receded when there's pages of people arguing about whether things were better in 1998
  • MillwallFan
    MillwallFan Posts: 3,477
    DOUCHER said:
    MillwallFan said:
    DOUCHER said:
    MillwallFan said:
    DOUCHER said:
    MillwallFan said:
    DOUCHER said:
    stoneroses19 said:
    RC_CAFC said:
    DOUCHER said:
    In 98 we were up against a forest team led by van hydink or whatever his name was , a middlesborough team with gazza and Merson in and we beat Quinn and Phillips at Wembley - I think the quality has dropped tbh - more money, less quality - Middlesbrough r refreshing to watch as they play good football - either the relegated premiership teams pass it round the back bollox or the defend for your lives stuff - give me football 25-30 years ago any day of the week - and 45 years ago and between the mid 30s and late 50’s - Millwall will blow out soon - Barry bannon 😂😂
    For me, It depends what you mean by ‘quality’. 
    In my opinion, that Middlesboro team with Merson and Gazza wouldn’t hold up well against Middlesboro’s team today. Those two undoubtedly hold more skill and class on the ball and are more entertaining to watch but for fitness, speed, stamina, tactical discipline and defensive shape, they’d be out-played.

    I’m not saying what you see today is better to watch, just that I don’t believe in the conditions they were in by the time they dropped to the championship, they would be able to cope with the speed and physicality of it.
    Agreed. Dropping Gazza and Merson in to the conversation actually helps the argument for why championship is better/stronger now. 

    Yes, both fantastic football minds and great (genius in Gazza) players, but not when they played for Middlesbrough. 

    Merson has even apologised to Boro fans, as he said he was there for money only. Said most games he could barely walk and had no idea what was going on on the pitch. Thankfully, he's turned himself around in later years. But his Boro days are not a good advert for why the championship was better in late 90d. 
    You want to add a bit of sparkle,a bit of class to your hard working but dull side - would you say Gazza and Paul Merson - even in their early 30's and past their best - would be worse than a 36 year old barry bannan who has spent his entire career in division 2 and 3? 
    Hard working but dull side? Are you talking about Millwall or Charlton here? Now I’m confused. You didn’t sign Bannon, we did. 
    Yes but we're building - in management speak lets say we're in the 'forming' stage - you've gone through the forming and norming stage and should now be in the performing / storming stage - have you got enough goals in your team when push comes to shove and coburn has to hold his nerve :D ?  
    Well, we’re third in the league despite having one of the smallest budgets so we must be doing something right. 
    No, it just proves my point about how weak this division is compared to even 15 years ago - u wouldn’t have been top 4 with your ‘goals for’ stat  
    After your bizarre and premature predictions earlier in the season have gone totally to pot, you’re clutching at straws here Douchy baby. It’s funny to see. I know it hurts how badly you got it wrong. 
    No, 141 years and nothing  - that’s funny - what did I say at the start of the season ? Well stay up, u won’t go up - what’s changed ? 2 years in the top division out of 141 - that’s very funny - oh and coburn 😂😂😂
    You’ve lost the plot mate. 
  • DOUCHER
    DOUCHER Posts: 8,580
    bobmunro said:
    DOUCHER said:
    bobmunro said:
    DOUCHER said:
    MillwallFan said:
    DOUCHER said:
    MillwallFan said:
    DOUCHER said:
    stoneroses19 said:
    RC_CAFC said:
    DOUCHER said:
    In 98 we were up against a forest team led by van hydink or whatever his name was , a middlesborough team with gazza and Merson in and we beat Quinn and Phillips at Wembley - I think the quality has dropped tbh - more money, less quality - Middlesbrough r refreshing to watch as they play good football - either the relegated premiership teams pass it round the back bollox or the defend for your lives stuff - give me football 25-30 years ago any day of the week - and 45 years ago and between the mid 30s and late 50’s - Millwall will blow out soon - Barry bannon 😂😂
    For me, It depends what you mean by ‘quality’. 
    In my opinion, that Middlesboro team with Merson and Gazza wouldn’t hold up well against Middlesboro’s team today. Those two undoubtedly hold more skill and class on the ball and are more entertaining to watch but for fitness, speed, stamina, tactical discipline and defensive shape, they’d be out-played.

    I’m not saying what you see today is better to watch, just that I don’t believe in the conditions they were in by the time they dropped to the championship, they would be able to cope with the speed and physicality of it.
    Agreed. Dropping Gazza and Merson in to the conversation actually helps the argument for why championship is better/stronger now. 

    Yes, both fantastic football minds and great (genius in Gazza) players, but not when they played for Middlesbrough. 

    Merson has even apologised to Boro fans, as he said he was there for money only. Said most games he could barely walk and had no idea what was going on on the pitch. Thankfully, he's turned himself around in later years. But his Boro days are not a good advert for why the championship was better in late 90d. 
    You want to add a bit of sparkle,a bit of class to your hard working but dull side - would you say Gazza and Paul Merson - even in their early 30's and past their best - would be worse than a 36 year old barry bannan who has spent his entire career in division 2 and 3? 
    Hard working but dull side? Are you talking about Millwall or Charlton here? Now I’m confused. You didn’t sign Bannon, we did. 
    Yes but we're building - in management speak lets say we're in the 'forming' stage - you've gone through the forming and norming stage and should now be in the performing / storming stage - have you got enough goals in your team when push comes to shove and coburn has to hold his nerve :D ?  
    Well, we’re third in the league despite having one of the smallest budgets so we must be doing something right. 
    No, it just proves my point about how weak this division is compared to even 15 years ago - u wouldn’t have been top 4 with your ‘goals for’ stat  

    It may prove your point, but it may not. It may prove the point that defences are much stronger and better organised now compared to 25 years back.
    Oh yeah, thanks Bob - hadn’t thought of that - I retract everything whatever it is just in case there is an alternative view 👍

    There is always an alternative view when comparing apples with oranges.
    There is always an alternative view. Full stop. 
  • DOUCHER
    DOUCHER Posts: 8,580
    MillwallFan said:
    DOUCHER said:
    MillwallFan said:
    DOUCHER said:
    MillwallFan said:
    DOUCHER said:
    MillwallFan said:
    DOUCHER said:
    stoneroses19 said:
    RC_CAFC said:
    DOUCHER said:
    In 98 we were up against a forest team led by van hydink or whatever his name was , a middlesborough team with gazza and Merson in and we beat Quinn and Phillips at Wembley - I think the quality has dropped tbh - more money, less quality - Middlesbrough r refreshing to watch as they play good football - either the relegated premiership teams pass it round the back bollox or the defend for your lives stuff - give me football 25-30 years ago any day of the week - and 45 years ago and between the mid 30s and late 50’s - Millwall will blow out soon - Barry bannon 😂😂
    For me, It depends what you mean by ‘quality’. 
    In my opinion, that Middlesboro team with Merson and Gazza wouldn’t hold up well against Middlesboro’s team today. Those two undoubtedly hold more skill and class on the ball and are more entertaining to watch but for fitness, speed, stamina, tactical discipline and defensive shape, they’d be out-played.

    I’m not saying what you see today is better to watch, just that I don’t believe in the conditions they were in by the time they dropped to the championship, they would be able to cope with the speed and physicality of it.
    Agreed. Dropping Gazza and Merson in to the conversation actually helps the argument for why championship is better/stronger now. 

    Yes, both fantastic football minds and great (genius in Gazza) players, but not when they played for Middlesbrough. 

    Merson has even apologised to Boro fans, as he said he was there for money only. Said most games he could barely walk and had no idea what was going on on the pitch. Thankfully, he's turned himself around in later years. But his Boro days are not a good advert for why the championship was better in late 90d. 
    You want to add a bit of sparkle,a bit of class to your hard working but dull side - would you say Gazza and Paul Merson - even in their early 30's and past their best - would be worse than a 36 year old barry bannan who has spent his entire career in division 2 and 3? 
    Hard working but dull side? Are you talking about Millwall or Charlton here? Now I’m confused. You didn’t sign Bannon, we did. 
    Yes but we're building - in management speak lets say we're in the 'forming' stage - you've gone through the forming and norming stage and should now be in the performing / storming stage - have you got enough goals in your team when push comes to shove and coburn has to hold his nerve :D ?  
    Well, we’re third in the league despite having one of the smallest budgets so we must be doing something right. 
    No, it just proves my point about how weak this division is compared to even 15 years ago - u wouldn’t have been top 4 with your ‘goals for’ stat  
    After your bizarre and premature predictions earlier in the season have gone totally to pot, you’re clutching at straws here Douchy baby. It’s funny to see. I know it hurts how badly you got it wrong. 
    No, 141 years and nothing  - that’s funny - what did I say at the start of the season ? Well stay up, u won’t go up - what’s changed ? 2 years in the top division out of 141 - that’s very funny - oh and coburn 😂😂😂
    You’ve lost the plot mate. 
    141 years - similar achievements as Bromley 😂😂😂😂
  • AndyG
    AndyG Posts: 6,180
    Garrymanilow said:
    Christ, you know the relegation fears have receded when there's pages of people arguing about whether things were better in 1998
    Another row on CL that has no chance of ever being resolved ! I crave the days of the Irish border question post brexit lol
  • FishCostaFortune
    FishCostaFortune Posts: 10,969
    Anyone know what the offside rule was in 1998?
  • aliwibble
    aliwibble Posts: 28,142
    edited 7:41PM
    Lads do we think we could take the specifically Millwall related bickering over to the Millwall relegation thread rather than cluttering up this one?
  • MillwallFan
    MillwallFan Posts: 3,477
    aliwibble said:
    Lads do we think we could take the specifically Millwall related bickering over to the Millwall relegation thread rather than cluttering up this one?
    Yep fair point. It was Doucher who started it on this thread though sir 😉

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