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When the Valley was Irish
Henry Irving
Posts: 87,051
One for my fellow Irish Addicks (27% according to my DNA test).
When CAFC bought the land that was to become the Valley the seller was from county Wicklow.
Only £3k. Someone tell Roland that is the real price.
@lenglover or ancestry experts able to tell as any more about Bessie?
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Again an amazing item @Henry Irving . Where did the Museum get that from?5
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I’m thinking the above must be her. I’ll do some more digging later on those links. I’d guess the residence in Kent sways it.2
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Bessie was born Bessie Horner Boyd in Dublin around 1858. Married Arthur Henry Wentworth Mansergh of the Leicestershire Regiment (17th) in Bombay on 27 Feb 1878. Arthur died in Belfast on 13 October 1926, with Bessie herself dying on 8th March 1930 in Wicklow. They had one son, Brian, who died in 1928.https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Boyd-24910
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Ooooooh I knew it was hallowed ground alright.
I’m defo going to get stuck in to this, cheers Henners 💚5 -
Both Bessie and Arthur’s families are Irish (mostly Armagh & Tipperary respectively) at least several generations back. Can’t see a link to Charlton or even London. Arthur’s family from Templemore which isn’t far from my mum & her side of our family.
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Fantastic stuff!1
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James Browne Horner (1771–1839)↓childless↓left one-third of his estate to his godson↓James Browne Horner Boyd (c.1820s–1881)↓Bessie Horner Boyd (1858–1930)↓married Arthur Mansergh↓Bessie Hornor Mansergh↓sold the Charlton Chalk Pit to Charlton Athletic.3
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Is Martin Mansergh a descendant I wonder.
He was a Fianna Fáil politician and political pundit of some renown in Ireland.0 -
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It is just a photo of an item that we hope to get better scans of.charlton4ever said:Again an amazing item @Henry Irving . Where did the Museum get that from?
It belongs to Adam Barton who came into the Museum on Saturday. His great grandfather - Alf - may have played the odd game in goal for Charlton pre WW1 and he certainly played against us for Charlton Amateurs in the London Junior Cup.Adam has a few interesting documents.Alf Barton apparently was one of the volunteers digging out the Valley.7 -
So who were the Horner Boyds?Chizz said:James Browne Horner (1771–1839)↓childless↓left one-third of his estate to his godson↓James Browne Horner Boyd (c.1820s–1881)↓Bessie Horner Boyd (1858–1930)↓married Arthur Mansergh↓Bessie Hornor Mansergh↓sold the Charlton Chalk Pit to Charlton Athletic.0 -
Thanks everyone for the research, keep it coming as I owe @Ollywozere a programme article2
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And what is the source for this?Chizz said:James Browne Horner (1771–1839)↓childless↓left one-third of his estate to his godson↓James Browne Horner Boyd (c.1820s–1881)↓Bessie Horner Boyd (1858–1930)↓married Arthur Mansergh↓Bessie Hornor Mansergh↓sold the Charlton Chalk Pit to Charlton Athletic.1 -
James Browne Horner was childless. He left one-third of his estate to his godson, who took the Horner name and added it to his own, becoming James Browne Horner Boyd.Henry Irving said:
So who were the Horner Boyds?Chizz said:James Browne Horner (1771–1839)↓childless↓left one-third of his estate to his godson↓James Browne Horner Boyd (c.1820s–1881)↓Bessie Horner Boyd (1858–1930)↓married Arthur Mansergh↓Bessie Hornor Mansergh↓sold the Charlton Chalk Pit to Charlton Athletic.
James Browne Horner Boyd had a daughter, Bessie, who married Arthur Mansergh, becoming Bessie Hornor Mansergh. (Various spellings).
Bessie sold the chalk pit to Charlton.
There's an Act of Parliament, "6 & 7 Victoria, c.20", passed 1 August 1843, which is an "An Act to authorize the granting of Building and Repairing Leases of Lands in the County of Kent formerly belonging to Francis M'Culluh, George Boone Roupell, and James Browne Horner in undivided Shares".
The Act's purpose was to unlock jointly-owned land for development. Its formal title says that Parliament authorised the granting of building and repairing leases of land formerly belonging to the three men "in undivided shares.
So, while I haven't found concrete evidence that the estate inheritance by James Browne Horner Boyd included the original site of (part of) the Valley, it seems very, very likely, given that the Act confirms James Browne Horner was a joint-owner as early as 1843.
A copy of that Act might be an interesting addition to the Museum.3 -
BrilliantHenry Irving said:One for my fellow Irish Addicks (27% according to my DNA test).
When CAFC bought the land that was to become the Valley the seller was from county Wicklow.
Only £3k. Someone tell Roland that is the real price.
@lenglover or ancestry experts able to tell as any more about Bessie?
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This would be what was called a Private Act of Parliament (now a Personal Act). There used to be lots of them and not all would have been printed. Likely places to search (in person) would be the Law Society Library and the Houses of Parliament archive.2
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It looks like St Luke’s Church in Charlton Village could be a place to look as well. James was Bessie’s father.
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I wonder if it is the same Roupell family who developed Roupell Street and the surrounding area near Waterloo and Roupell Park (Streatham Hill/Tulse Hill)
The Roupells – Roupell Street Conservation Area
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Brilliant stuffTelMc32 said:It looks like St Luke’s Church in Charlton Village could be a place to look as well. James was Bessie’s father.
And a link to Drag Race too5 -
How do we know James is Bessie’s father?
I found all the above but also found Bessie in the 1911 census staying in Whisterfield House Llanfairfechan, where she was described as the daughter of the head of the house Harriah M Boyd, who incidentally is shown as born in Armagh.
She was also married in India and was in the Leicestershire Regiment 17th Foot.1 -
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KBslittlesis said:How do we know James is Bessie’s father?
I found all the above but also found Bessie in the 1911 census staying in Whisterfield House Llanfairfechan, where she was described as the daughter of the head of the house Harriah M Boyd, who incidentally is shown as born in Armagh.
She was also married in India and was in the Leicestershire Regiment 17th Foot.I think “Harriah” is actually “Hannah”, which was her mother’s name (Hannah Magdalin Knox). Bessie was indeed married in Bombay…although she wasn’t the one in the Leicestershire Regiment…they weren’t that enlightened then 😉
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Nice one!
But need confirmation of the birth of Bessie which I can't find yet.
Got a hospital appointment today so will dig again tomorrow 🙌1 -
KBslittlesis said:Nice one!
But need confirmation of the birth of Bessie which I can't find yet.
Got a hospital appointment today so will dig again tomorrow 🙌
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Brilliant, keep it coming.
So the Valley is built on a dump for dead rats and other animals. Explains a lot.
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That the rats were from Rotherhithe sounds about right! Probably wearing flat caps too 🤷🏻♂️Henry Irving said:Brilliant, keep it coming.
So the Valley is built on a dump for dead rats and other animals. Explains a lot.8 -
Looks likely. Martin was born in Woking in 1946, but his father Nicholas was Abe Bailey Professor of the British Commonwealth at Chatham House and had been born at Greenane House in Tipperary. This seems to link him to Bessie’s husband.iainment said:Is Martin Mansergh a descendant I wonder.
He was a Fianna Fáil politician and political pundit of some renown in Ireland.
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Cheers @TelMc32 just can’t dig out a birth certificate.
Not unusual for Ireland though tbf 🙄😂😂1
