i would go as far to say i think id cards should carry your dna.
would surely 'benefit' our benefit system, give police help in tracing criminals (by knowing who they are after) , help reduce credit card fraud etc.
1) help protect cardholders against identity theft and fraud
But that will only work if every single trader is willing and able to check your ID card against the central database. Quite frankly, I'm never entirely convinced that the Saturday staff in a number of shops could find their arses with both hands, so dealing with the credit card payment and then the biometric check is going to make the whole payment process longer even if everything works OK. It just needs a few people leaving greasy fingerprints all over the scanner to start causing the results to be inaccurate, and then there'll be arguments and calling the supervisor over, and the rest of the queue getting incredibly pissed off. And no-one but a qualified optician goes anywhere near my eyes.
2) provide a reliable way of checking the identity of people in positions of trust
Well, it'll enable certain authorisations to check the identity of those people, but it won't enable you or I to confirm that they are who they claim to be should they turn up at the door. So if a criminal is able to fake a work ID convincingly they can still get up to all sorts of illicit activity. And that's before we get on to the argument about ordinary members of the workforce who have already been checked, and are then targetted by criminal gangs to abuse that trust.
3) make travelling in Europe easier
True, but you'd still need a passport to go anywhere else, so it's not a vast improvement.
4) provide a secure way of applying for financial products and making financial transactions, including those made over the internet
It might help for transactions done in person, but over the internet? That'd mean we'd all need our own fingerprint / facial / retinal scanners as well as a card reader, so that we could send the appropriate details to the website concerned to verify our identity. How much is all that going to cost. And if all that information is available, then you'll just get loads more "phishing" scams, except this time the phony websites won't just be after your credit card details, but all the other information stored on the card. And it'll be much more difficult for you to prove that anything done was a cloned card wasn't you,
5) offer a secure and convenient way of proving your age
If you need to, one of those "Prove It" cards will do that, much more cheaply.
6) help to confirm your eligibility for public services and benefits – and reduce fraud relating to these services and benefits
The thing is most benefit fraud isn't identity related, it's people continuing to claim when their circumstances change, or misrepresenting their circumstances in the first place. Given all the problems that the benefits agency is having just getting the child tax credits system up to date, I have no confidence that an even more complex system will be any more effective.
7) help in the prevention of organised crime and terrorism
Even the Government have admitted that the ID card will not help prevent terrorism, and although it may help in some areas of organised crime, ID card details will become a magnet for fraudsters. A well forged ID card will be a licence to print money, and if they can get people on the inside in the ID card processing centres - as they are reportedly trying to do in financial call centres - then the scope for illegal activity is immense.
8) help combat illegal working and reduce illegal immigration to the UK
Nope. While there are still people willing to pay "cash in hand" there'll be illegal working, and as visitors to the UK don't have to have an ID card unless they admit to intending to stay more than 3 months, people will still overstay on their tourist visas, just like they do now.
9) allow the police more quickly to identify suspects and people they arrest.
Only if it's compulsory to carry them. And don't get me started on the temptation to add DNA profiles to the database, and then go trawling for people that just happen to fit it.
Even if you're not philosopically opposed to the idea of ID cards, the proposed benefits are not as great as the Government are trying to suggest, and certainly don't justify the ridiculous amounts of money that are going to have to be spent to implement it.
I was also very impressed with the very well reasoned nature of the post- certainly made me reconsider my strong support- be interested to see if other "supporters" change thir view or can argue against the post!
Game set and match to Aliwibble though in my opinion:-)
I was asked to post the benefits of an ID card and undoubtedly all nine of my points can be construed as beneficial. I did not suggest any of them were perfect or indeed foolproof, but without a doubt they all offer a better more secure system than we have presently.
1) "But that will only work if every single trader is willing and able to check your ID card against the central database".
Why, you can still pay by cash. If you pay by credit card your ID is already checked against a central database.
2) "So if a criminal is able to fake a work ID convincingly they can still get up to all sorts of illicit activity. And that's before we get on to the argument about ordinary members of the workforce who have already been checked, and are then targetted by criminal gangs to abuse that trust".
It won't stop all ID fraud, but it will make it far more difficult. Again, like Henry, I have to have both CRB and POVA checks for my work, but even these sometimes fail.
3) "so it's not a vast improvement"
It's still an improvement.
4) "It might help for transactions done in person, but over the internet? That'd mean we'd all need our own fingerprint / facial / retinal scanners as well as a card reader, so that we could send the appropriate details to the website concerned to verify our identity. How much is all that going to cost".
Software is already available to support these functions - I expect if it was compulsory, then all PCs purchased would have this installed in them like virus protection is pre installed now and wasn't 5 years ago.
5) "If you need to, one of those "Prove It" cards will do that, much more cheaply".
My son had one just before his 17th birthday - easily faked by cunning teenagers, unlike biometric ID cards.
6) "The thing is most benefit fraud isn't identity related, it's people continuing to claim when their circumstances change, or misrepresenting their circumstances in the first place".
It will give these agencies more resources to concentrate on those who's circumstances change rather than spending vast amounts of time checking and cross referencing misrepresentation.
7) "Even the Government have admitted that the ID card will not help prevent terrorism, and although it may help in some areas of organised crime, ID card details will become a magnet for fraudsters. A well forged ID card will be a licence to print money, and if they can get people on the inside in the ID card processing centres - as they are reportedly trying to do in financial call centres - then the scope for illegal activity is immense".
Sorry, but I disagree with this completely. Firstly I've not seen the Government stating this and secondly how on earth will it become a magnet for fraudsters? The point of a biometric ID is that it's virtually impossible to forge - even with 'inside' help. Immense? I think not.
8) "Nope. While there are still people willing to pay "cash in hand" there'll be illegal working, and as visitors to the UK don't have to have an ID card unless they admit to intending to stay more than 3 months, people will still overstay on their tourist visas, just like they do now".
You will never get rid of 'the black economy' but it will just make it more difficult. You can't pay dozens of workers cash in hand week after week without questions being asked as to why. If people wish to visit the UK, then they will require ID - similar to the Visa situation required in several countries now.
9) "Only if it's compulsory to carry them".
If it comes in, then it will be.
As I said previously, I don't think it will be perfect, but it will be a damn sight better than what we have at the moment. Your reason for not having it are just excuses, hearsay and fault finding, without considering any of the positive benefits, of which I can see many. I'm minded to think of the Yorkshire News presenter on Soccer AM; "Change isn't good".
My only real objection to the implementation of a National ID scheme, would be the initial cost of that implementation and the ability of the systems manufacturers to get the IT right first time and sensibly maintained and managed - which I am not convinced about at present.
I can assure you, it will come into being one day sooner or later and you are right to raise your justifiable concerns to make sure when it is implemented it is the most secure system we can have.
Comments
would surely 'benefit' our benefit system, give police help in tracing criminals (by knowing who they are after) , help reduce credit card fraud etc.
But that will only work if every single trader is willing and able to check your ID card against the central database. Quite frankly, I'm never entirely convinced that the Saturday staff in a number of shops could find their arses with both hands, so dealing with the credit card payment and then the biometric check is going to make the whole payment process longer even if everything works OK. It just needs a few people leaving greasy fingerprints all over the scanner to start causing the results to be inaccurate, and then there'll be arguments and calling the supervisor over, and the rest of the queue getting incredibly pissed off. And no-one but a qualified optician goes anywhere near my eyes.
Well, it'll enable certain authorisations to check the identity of those people, but it won't enable you or I to confirm that they are who they claim to be should they turn up at the door. So if a criminal is able to fake a work ID convincingly they can still get up to all sorts of illicit activity. And that's before we get on to the argument about ordinary members of the workforce who have already been checked, and are then targetted by criminal gangs to abuse that trust.
True, but you'd still need a passport to go anywhere else, so it's not a vast improvement.
It might help for transactions done in person, but over the internet? That'd mean we'd all need our own fingerprint / facial / retinal scanners as well as a card reader, so that we could send the appropriate details to the website concerned to verify our identity. How much is all that going to cost. And if all that information is available, then you'll just get loads more "phishing" scams, except this time the phony websites won't just be after your credit card details, but all the other information stored on the card. And it'll be much more difficult for you to prove that anything done was a cloned card wasn't you,
If you need to, one of those "Prove It" cards will do that, much more cheaply.
The thing is most benefit fraud isn't identity related, it's people continuing to claim when their circumstances change, or misrepresenting their circumstances in the first place. Given all the problems that the benefits agency is having just getting the child tax credits system up to date, I have no confidence that an even more complex system will be any more effective.
Even the Government have admitted that the ID card will not help prevent terrorism, and although it may help in some areas of organised crime, ID card details will become a magnet for fraudsters. A well forged ID card will be a licence to print money, and if they can get people on the inside in the ID card processing centres - as they are reportedly trying to do in financial call centres - then the scope for illegal activity is immense.
Nope. While there are still people willing to pay "cash in hand" there'll be illegal working, and as visitors to the UK don't have to have an ID card unless they admit to intending to stay more than 3 months, people will still overstay on their tourist visas, just like they do now.
Only if it's compulsory to carry them. And don't get me started on the temptation to add DNA profiles to the database, and then go trawling for people that just happen to fit it.
Even if you're not philosopically opposed to the idea of ID cards, the proposed benefits are not as great as the Government are trying to suggest, and certainly don't justify the ridiculous amounts of money that are going to have to be spent to implement it.
Seconded. Excellent post Aliwibble as, to be fair, was Addickted's putting the other side of the argument.
Game set and match to Aliwibble though in my opinion:-)
Maybe a tie breaker needed?
1) "But that will only work if every single trader is willing and able to check your ID card against the central database".
Why, you can still pay by cash. If you pay by credit card your ID is already checked against a central database.
2) "So if a criminal is able to fake a work ID convincingly they can still get up to all sorts of illicit activity. And that's before we get on to the argument about ordinary members of the workforce who have already been checked, and are then targetted by criminal gangs to abuse that trust".
It won't stop all ID fraud, but it will make it far more difficult. Again, like Henry, I have to have both CRB and POVA checks for my work, but even these sometimes fail.
3) "so it's not a vast improvement"
It's still an improvement.
4) "It might help for transactions done in person, but over the internet? That'd mean we'd all need our own fingerprint / facial / retinal scanners as well as a card reader, so that we could send the appropriate details to the website concerned to verify our identity. How much is all that going to cost".
Software is already available to support these functions - I expect if it was compulsory, then all PCs purchased would have this installed in them like virus protection is pre installed now and wasn't 5 years ago.
5) "If you need to, one of those "Prove It" cards will do that, much more cheaply".
My son had one just before his 17th birthday - easily faked by cunning teenagers, unlike biometric ID cards.
6) "The thing is most benefit fraud isn't identity related, it's people continuing to claim when their circumstances change, or misrepresenting their circumstances in the first place".
It will give these agencies more resources to concentrate on those who's circumstances change rather than spending vast amounts of time checking and cross referencing misrepresentation.
7) "Even the Government have admitted that the ID card will not help prevent terrorism, and although it may help in some areas of organised crime, ID card details will become a magnet for fraudsters. A well forged ID card will be a licence to print money, and if they can get people on the inside in the ID card processing centres - as they are reportedly trying to do in financial call centres - then the scope for illegal activity is immense".
Sorry, but I disagree with this completely. Firstly I've not seen the Government stating this and secondly how on earth will it become a magnet for fraudsters? The point of a biometric ID is that it's virtually impossible to forge - even with 'inside' help. Immense? I think not.
8) "Nope. While there are still people willing to pay "cash in hand" there'll be illegal working, and as visitors to the UK don't have to have an ID card unless they admit to intending to stay more than 3 months, people will still overstay on their tourist visas, just like they do now".
You will never get rid of 'the black economy' but it will just make it more difficult. You can't pay dozens of workers cash in hand week after week without questions being asked as to why. If people wish to visit the UK, then they will require ID - similar to the Visa situation required in several countries now.
9) "Only if it's compulsory to carry them".
If it comes in, then it will be.
As I said previously, I don't think it will be perfect, but it will be a damn sight better than what we have at the moment. Your reason for not having it are just excuses, hearsay and fault finding, without considering any of the positive benefits, of which I can see many. I'm minded to think of the Yorkshire News presenter on Soccer AM; "Change isn't good".
My only real objection to the implementation of a National ID scheme, would be the initial cost of that implementation and the ability of the systems manufacturers to get the IT right first time and sensibly maintained and managed - which I am not convinced about at present.
I can assure you, it will come into being one day sooner or later and you are right to raise your justifiable concerns to make sure when it is implemented it is the most secure system we can have.
It's also good to debate these issues on forums.