The insurance thing is a bit strange as usually if you're full comp you can drive another persons vehicle (with their permission) third party. I find it strange in this instance. However if he is found guilty of DD, I suspect they wouldn't cover him anyway.
I deal with drivers every day in my job, I see lots of people who basically think they can drive vehicles uninsured, let their mates drive them or lend them out, and I turn people away on a daily/weekly basis who have Drink Drives or Insurance offences on their licence, zero tolerance with my insurance company and long may it continue, its frightening the attitude of some of the people I deal with.
If anyone has the slightest sympathy for him, look at the facts, ignorance of the law is no excuse regards insurance, neither is it a defence in court. He did this, no one else, like I said, not just an accident that can happen to anyone, his actions and decisions caused this.
Take one look at the mother and photos of two bright & cheerful kids in football shirts, wiped out due to the irresponsible behaviour of this cretin, now tell me he deserves any sympathy whatsoever, does he hell.
[cite]Posted By: SoundAsa£[/cite]The insurance thing is a bit strange as usually if you're full comp you can drive another persons vehicle (with their permission) third party.
I find it strange in this instance.
However if he is found guilty of DD, I suspect they wouldn't cover him anyway.
That all depends on the other car owners insurance, not your own even if you are fully comp
AFKA i have never driven my care whilst not insured. Im my own limited company now and i even upgraded my insurance in case i use my car for work at all.
As for DD never have i driven while pissed or if there has been a doubt. I once had an accident on shootershill i had a beer at lunch time and was breathalised. Ipassed it , but in my heart was i totaly totaly sober (under the law yes) but i felt it might have contributed to my poor driving.
I'm not saying about driving when pissed, i'm saying that alcohol takes a lot longer to leave some people's bodies than they realise, and that a lot of people drive the next morning, completely unaware they would fail a breathalyser.
As for the no insurance thing, just wait until the facts emerge. As a professional footballer, i'm sure he is fully comp so there may well be some technical catch that hasn't come to light yet.
There's no doubting what has happened in this accident, whether down to gross stupidity, negligence or a catalogue of unfortunate events, will leave with him for the rest of his life. But lets wait until the facts emerge before speculating how much he should be villified.
[cite]Posted By: SoundAsa£[/cite]The insurance thing is a bit strange as usually if you're full comp you can drive another persons vehicle (with their permission) third party.
I find it strange in this instance.
However if he is found guilty of DD, I suspect they wouldn't cover him anyway.
That all depends on the other car owners insurance, not your own even if you are fully comp
The terms and conditions of my insurance state that I can drive any vehicle but that I'm only covered third party under my insurance driving any vehicle other than my own. So I could drive your car and be insured third party only assuming it is a bog standard car that hasn't been tampered with (racing stuff etc).
I can also drive my daughter's car but as I'm a named driver on her comprehensive policy anyway in the event of an accident we would have comprehensive cover under HER insurance.
AFKA rightly says we shouldn't say too much but it might be that the insurance company excluded 3rd party cover driving other cars because he was under 25 in the small print or something like that. He may not have INTENTIONALLY driven without insurance.
Not trying to defend him in any way just perhaps explain a possible scenario.
It's unfortunte that we're discussing this in a thread that involves so much pain and sadness but it's educating a lot of us none-the -less, so at least some tiny piece of good can come out of it. I must say I fall into the category of those who thought that I was covered to drive another vehicle, but it would seem from what DA9 is saying that both parties have to have clauses allowing this to be legal. All I can say to everyone is be very careful as it would seem you may (albeit unintentionaly) uninsured and you can rest assured(sorry DA9), if any insurance company can a find away out of not being liable they will
I only know as I work in car hire, we have to vet people and OK them for being able to drive our vehicles using our insurance, ie, we have to give permission for them to drive based on their licence and any possible endorsements, regardless of them being fully comp with their own insurers, they are different policies and different regulations, but yes, some people do have comprehensive insurance that allows them to name any driver at will, for which they pay a premium.
Don't really want to open this debate up again, just wanted to added that the charge of driving without insurance against Luke McCormick has been dropped. It appears to have been an 'administration error' his details were not on the national database, and the insurance papers he submitted were accepted as genuine.
Indeed a very sad story.
I find it very hard to believe that anyone who has driven for 25 years+ has never done so without being over the legal limit for alcohol. Don't forget the legal limit is very small and most men would not actually feel different after 2 1/2-3 pints of beer.
Even driving 100 % sober I'm sure many have moments where concentration has been lost and just down to good fortune nothing serious has occured.
I feel sorry for ALL parties in this story and the phrase "There but for the grace of God go I" is very apt.
It is sad that all these lives have been destroyed, even that of a young man with a bright future ahead of him, but lets not forget he was in control of the situation, he did not have to drink, he did not have to drive and if he had not those kids would be alive today.
You are right that there are very few of us that have not been over the legal limit at one time or another in our driving lifetime, but I think more and more of us realise now how stupid it was to do so and i can't remember the last time I drove over the limit - 10 years probably more. Whilst we may feel ok on a small amount of alcohol there are enopugh studies out there that porve that even legal levels of alcohol can affect driving ability, especially ion circumstances where reactions and reflexes are required.
Indeed I haven't done it for 15-20 years, but then I'm in my mid 40's.
Of course anyone who get's in a car pissed is a **** but he was just about 2 times over, what is that? 3 or 4 pints? Terrible crime but come on don't tell me you haven't felt OK to drive after that amount, even if you haven't actually done it.
thats the point tho Chirpy, if you know you dont do it full stop . i never ever drink and drive. Done alot of shit over the years. I know me though and i wont ever take the car if i know its going to be a piss up.
[cite]Posted By: Chirpy Red[/cite]Indeed I haven't done it for 15-20 years, but then I'm in my mid 40's.
Of course anyone who get's in a car pissed is a **** but he was just about 2 times over, what is that? 3 or 4 pints? Terrible crime but come on don't tell me you haven't felt OK to drive after that amount, even if you haven't actually done it.
When I am on 3 or 4 pints as per saturday, then I feel that i can drive but I am sober enough to know that i can't, after 5-6 I know i can drive and am too pissed to realise I can't - fortunately I have a wife to handle the latter situation and also these days i don't drink much anyway.
Causing death by dangerous driving when over the limit carries a maximum sentence of 14 years. He killed 2 kids, so how exactly does a judge decide that 7 years is enough? What on earth would someone have to do to get the maximum sentence?!!
And he'll be out in less than 4 years, absolutely ridiculous.
[cite]Posted By: Chris_from_Sidcup[/cite]Causing death by dangerous driving when over the limit carries a maximum sentence of 14 years. He killed 2 kids, so how exactly does a judge decide that 7 years is enough? What on earth would someone have to do to get the maximum sentence?!!
And he'll be out in less than 4 years, absolutely ridiculous.
ah see but how old was he at the time 22? i do not think he should get off scot free but should serve all 7 years.
[cite]Posted By: Ledge[/cite]He just been senteneced to 7 years 4 months in prison.
Not enough IMO.
Pre meditated murder IMO - Getting behind the wheekl of a car pissed is as good as murder. 3,5 years for those kids is disgusting.
It is a sad situation but an accident still he has to wake up everyday and think "i've killed two young children and maybe even their father!"
an accident of all his own making for being drunk and sleep deprived and I hope he has nightmares for the rest of his life about what he has done - because the parents will relive it everyday for the rest of theirs and will NEVER get over it.
I'm also annoyed with the short sentence and that he can be out in 3 and a half years.
Prison sentences should be like injury time in a game of football- whereby if the 4th official shows three minutes on the board then AT LEAST three minutes are played + any other time the ref adds on. Therefore, if you go down for 10 years, you serve AT LEAST those 10 years and any bad behaviour whilst in prison is reflected by extra time being added to the sentence.
Also, if you kill two people and get two life sentences you should serve them CONSECUTIVELY, not concurrently as is the norm.
Ledge...that's way OTT...the guy has to somehow 'try' to find peace with himself...you're speaking as someone who's never faced a horrendous situation in their life and I hope you never do.
I said earlier in the thred that it's a sad sad situation for ALL concerned...he has a family too who are no doubt utterly shattered, OK, not in the same way as the poor parents but shattered none-the-less...yes he has no one to blame but himself but let the guy somehow find his peace with his maker(though god knows how he's going to manage to do that)....why do you want him to go on being tortured, it's preposterous.
[cite]Posted By: Chirpy Red[/cite]Indeed a very sad story.
I find it very hard to believe that anyone who has driven for 25 years+ has never done so without being over the legal limit for alcohol. Don't forget the legal limit is very small and most men would not actually feel different after 2 1/2-3 pints of beer.
Even driving 100 % sober I'm sure many have moments where concentration has been lost and just down to good fortune nothing serious has occured.
I feel sorry for ALL parties in this story and the phrase "There but for the grace of God go I" is very apt.
Soundas why is Ledge ott. The bloke murdered two children through his own actions. I personally hope he never finds peace with himself cause I'm sure the boys parents won't.
I hope that you or anybody else on this board never have to bury any of your children.
Apologies and sympathy to anybody who has been in that situation.
I am not going to get into a cyber argument over this - IN MY OPINION I stand by everything I say. As a father of 2 boys myself I'd never forgive him if he did it to me.
As for all this find peace with himself sorry that is namby pamby nonsense but I repsect that is your view on it.
He will come out in 3 or so years and PROBABLY pick up his professional career just like the other mug Lee hughes has done and carry on with his life as he is just about young enough to do so and probably arrogant enough to do so as most footballers of his ilk are.
As I said the parents WILL never get over this and that is their nightmare for the rest of their lives which as I said hope is mirrored in his life.
How about the mother of damilo le taylor who actually forgave the murderers of her son why? because she could! how could she i'll never know but they went out of their way to kill him. whereas this man made a mistake one that yes killed two kids and yes will haunt him and all parties involved forever but it was a mistake!
p.s just to make it clear This is my opinion and I am happy to read others opinions And i apologise to anyone i offend with my own!
[cite]Posted By: southamptonaddick[/cite]Soundas why is Ledge ott. The bloke murdered two children through his own actions. I personally hope he never finds peace with himself cause I'm sure the boys parents won't.
I hope that you or anybody else on this board never have to bury any of your children.
That's ridiculous, he didn't murder anyone...murder is a premeditated act he was never charged with murder of course but that term seem to have rolled off your tongue in order to inflame the situation...but let's not get into semantics here...I'm not forgiving the bloke for one moment.
I'm just saying he too has to try to find a way out of the hell he's now in...if you're 'pleased' he's in his own private hell and want him to remain in it for the rest of his days then you're a very harsh and heartless person indeed...I don't want anyone in this sad story to go on hurting more than they have to in order find peace with themselves.
Comments
I find it strange in this instance.
However if he is found guilty of DD, I suspect they wouldn't cover him anyway.
If anyone has the slightest sympathy for him, look at the facts, ignorance of the law is no excuse regards insurance, neither is it a defence in court. He did this, no one else, like I said, not just an accident that can happen to anyone, his actions and decisions caused this.
Take one look at the mother and photos of two bright & cheerful kids in football shirts, wiped out due to the irresponsible behaviour of this cretin, now tell me he deserves any sympathy whatsoever, does he hell.
That all depends on the other car owners insurance, not your own even if you are fully comp
As for DD never have i driven while pissed or if there has been a doubt. I once had an accident on shootershill i had a beer at lunch time and was breathalised. Ipassed it , but in my heart was i totaly totaly sober (under the law yes) but i felt it might have contributed to my poor driving.
As for the no insurance thing, just wait until the facts emerge. As a professional footballer, i'm sure he is fully comp so there may well be some technical catch that hasn't come to light yet.
There's no doubting what has happened in this accident, whether down to gross stupidity, negligence or a catalogue of unfortunate events, will leave with him for the rest of his life. But lets wait until the facts emerge before speculating how much he should be villified.
The terms and conditions of my insurance state that I can drive any vehicle but that I'm only covered third party under my insurance driving any vehicle other than my own. So I could drive your car and be insured third party only assuming it is a bog standard car that hasn't been tampered with (racing stuff etc).
I can also drive my daughter's car but as I'm a named driver on her comprehensive policy anyway in the event of an accident we would have comprehensive cover under HER insurance.
AFKA rightly says we shouldn't say too much but it might be that the insurance company excluded 3rd party cover driving other cars because he was under 25 in the small print or something like that. He may not have INTENTIONALLY driven without insurance.
Not trying to defend him in any way just perhaps explain a possible scenario.
I must say I fall into the category of those who thought that I was covered to drive another vehicle, but it would seem from what DA9 is saying that both parties have to have clauses allowing this to be legal.
All I can say to everyone is be very careful as it would seem you may (albeit unintentionaly) uninsured and you can rest assured(sorry DA9), if any insurance company can a find away out of not being liable they will
Sacked - linky thingy
I find it very hard to believe that anyone who has driven for 25 years+ has never done so without being over the legal limit for alcohol. Don't forget the legal limit is very small and most men would not actually feel different after 2 1/2-3 pints of beer.
Even driving 100 % sober I'm sure many have moments where concentration has been lost and just down to good fortune nothing serious has occured.
I feel sorry for ALL parties in this story and the phrase "There but for the grace of God go I" is very apt.
Not enough IMO.
Pre meditated murder IMO - Getting behind the wheekl of a car pissed is as good as murder. 3,5 years for those kids is disgusting.
You are right that there are very few of us that have not been over the legal limit at one time or another in our driving lifetime, but I think more and more of us realise now how stupid it was to do so and i can't remember the last time I drove over the limit - 10 years probably more. Whilst we may feel ok on a small amount of alcohol there are enopugh studies out there that porve that even legal levels of alcohol can affect driving ability, especially ion circumstances where reactions and reflexes are required.
Of course anyone who get's in a car pissed is a **** but he was just about 2 times over, what is that? 3 or 4 pints? Terrible crime but come on don't tell me you haven't felt OK to drive after that amount, even if you haven't actually done it.
When I am on 3 or 4 pints as per saturday, then I feel that i can drive but I am sober enough to know that i can't, after 5-6 I know i can drive and am too pissed to realise I can't - fortunately I have a wife to handle the latter situation and also these days i don't drink much anyway.
It is a sad situation but an accident still he has to wake up everyday and think "i've killed two young children and maybe even their father!"
And he'll be out in less than 4 years, absolutely ridiculous.
ah see but how old was he at the time 22? i do not think he should get off scot free but should serve all 7 years.
an accident of all his own making for being drunk and sleep deprived and I hope he has nightmares for the rest of his life about what he has done - because the parents will relive it everyday for the rest of theirs and will NEVER get over it.
Watch the film the machinist you realise he will never forgive himself!
Prison sentences should be like injury time in a game of football- whereby if the 4th official shows three minutes on the board then AT LEAST three minutes are played + any other time the ref adds on. Therefore, if you go down for 10 years, you serve AT LEAST those 10 years and any bad behaviour whilst in prison is reflected by extra time being added to the sentence.
Also, if you kill two people and get two life sentences you should serve them CONSECUTIVELY, not concurrently as is the norm.
I said earlier in the thred that it's a sad sad situation for ALL concerned...he has a family too who are no doubt utterly shattered, OK, not in the same way as the poor parents but shattered none-the-less...yes he has no one to blame but himself but let the guy somehow find his peace with his maker(though god knows how he's going to manage to do that)....why do you want him to go on being tortured, it's preposterous.
This view sums up my own!
I hope that you or anybody else on this board never have to bury any of your children.
Apologies and sympathy to anybody who has been in that situation.
As for all this find peace with himself sorry that is namby pamby nonsense but I repsect that is your view on it.
He will come out in 3 or so years and PROBABLY pick up his professional career just like the other mug Lee hughes has done and carry on with his life as he is just about young enough to do so and probably arrogant enough to do so as most footballers of his ilk are.
As I said the parents WILL never get over this and that is their nightmare for the rest of their lives which as I said hope is mirrored in his life.
p.s just to make it clear This is my opinion and I am happy to read others opinions And i apologise to anyone i offend with my own!
That's ridiculous, he didn't murder anyone...murder is a premeditated act he was never charged with murder of course but that term seem to have rolled off your tongue in order to inflame the situation...but let's not get into semantics here...I'm not forgiving the bloke for one moment.
I'm just saying he too has to try to find a way out of the hell he's now in...if you're 'pleased' he's in his own private hell and want him to remain in it for the rest of his days then you're a very harsh and heartless person indeed...I don't want anyone in this sad story to go on hurting more than they have to in order find peace with themselves.