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Clough (and The Damned Utd)

Did anyone watch the documentary on ITV this evening? It was certainly fascinating for somebody of my generation who grew up, so to speak with Brian. One of my earliest Charlton memories was seeing us beat his all conquering Derby side at the Valley 2-0 in 68/9. They were promoted and went on to win the Championship. We fell at the final hurdle (too many home draws in the run in) and were relegated two seasons later.

I also remember the stuff about Leeds and his hatred of them etc.

What an incredible bloke he was and the biggest cop out of all time was made when they didn't appoint him as England manager. He was a shoe in and yet, I kind of knew he wouldn't get the job.

I am going to see The Damned United this weekend if I can. I haven't read the book - I'm rather glad I haven't given the furore it caused. The film is more sympathetic, I believe.
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Comments

  • Very good documentary
  • I watched a couple of those BBC4 dramas about classic British comedies; Hancock, Steptoe, Peter Sellers, etc. Why do they focus on the negatives? All the people involved achieved greatness within their medium?! Is that just Britishness to concentrate on the tears of the clown? Peter Sellers drank the finest wines & got with the finest women & will be remembered. Clough had enormous success but we concentrate on his flaws. Why?
  • [cite]Posted By: bingaddick[/cite]Did anyone watch the documentary on ITV this evening? It was certainly fascinating for somebody of my generation who grew up, so to speak with Brian. One of my earliest Charlton memories was seeing us beat his all conquering Derby side at the Valley 2-0 in 68/9. They were promoted and went on to win the Championship. We fell at the final hurdle (too many home draws in the run in) and were relegated two seasons later.

    I also remember the stuff about Leeds and his hatred of them etc.

    What an incredible bloke he was and the biggest cop out of all time was made when they didn't appoint him as England manager. He was a shoe in and yet, I kind of knew he wouldn't get the job.

    I am going to see The Damned United this weekend if I can. I haven't read the book - I'm rather glad I haven't given the furore it caused. The film is more sympathetic, I believe.

    Book is superb, hope the film is not a letdown
  • I am obviously a pedant because I have been looking forward to this film since it was first mooted, but Timothy Spall playing Peter Taylor is strange casting. He would not have made a very effective keeper
  • [cite]Posted By: cfgs[/cite]I am obviously a pedant because I have been looking forward to this film since it was first mooted, but Timothy Spall playing Peter Taylor is strange casting. He would not have made a very effective keeper

    Some critics say Spall did a fine job. Anyway I will judge for myself, I also have been looking forward to the film.
    Although a work of fiction I thought the book was excellent. Having read Clough's bio by Sadler (Ithink thats who ghosted it) I thought it was pretty close to the truth of his time at Dirty Leeds.

    Cloughs record as a manager stands better than any England manager we have ever had.
  • I am not casting doubt on Spall's talent, just that he is the opposite of Taylor. Clough's right hand man was a big bloke, Spall is short to average and fat
  • watched it until 11 then couldn't keep my eyes open so sky plussed the rest.

    love the bit with him and revie -
  • [cite]Posted By: Darren[/cite]I watched a couple of those BBC4 dramas about classic British comedies; Hancock, Steptoe, Peter Sellers, etc. Why do they focus on the negatives? All the people involved achieved greatness within their medium?! Is that just Britishness to concentrate on the tears of the clown? Peter Sellers drank the finest wines & got with the finest women & will be remembered. Clough had enormous success but we concentrate on his flaws. Why?

    That's a very good point, Darren.

    So why do we always want to pull people down - or focus on worst case scenario instead of the possibilities of what can be achieved?
  • I found it fascinating especially the interview process at The FA for the new England manager in 1977 saying Ron Greenwood wasn't even on the list of candidates so had been lined up and the interview process was a sham although 99% of the public backed Clough. I suppose he was too outspoken. As Peter Shilton said if he was still around now and at the height of his powers the FA would be banging his door down. Also an amazing insight into his relationship with Nigel. Brian didn't congratulate him when he scord two goals in the League Cup final and when he won an England cap. An amazing manager but a man whom you could never figure out what he was thinking. It was a tragedy when he passed away.
  • [cite]Posted By: Darren[/cite]I watched a couple of those BBC4 dramas about classic British comedies; Hancock, Steptoe, Peter Sellers, etc. Why do they focus on the negatives? All the people involved achieved greatness within their medium?! Is that just Britishness to concentrate on the tears of the clown? Peter Sellers drank the finest wines & got with the finest women & will be remembered. Clough had enormous success but we concentrate on his flaws. Why?

    Darren, speak as you find but I thought on balance this documentary was pro Clough and cast a good light on him.

    It is true that his widow and family were very unhappy at the book and don't like the film.

    I've not read the book and I'll make my own mind up about the film.

    One thing is certain, what he achieved was astonishing. To take Derby to win the Championship and then Forest to both League title and European Cup winners, then successfully defend the Cup was incredible and I can't imagine it happening again, not without a Billionaires money backing it.
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  • [cite]Posted By: Spankie[/cite] An amazing manager but a man whom you could never figure out what he was thinking. It was a tragedy when he passed away.

    It happens to us all.
  • A fine documentary, and a great insight into the man himself !!!

    One of the comments that I've read from ex-Leeds players is that Brian Clough thought he'd inherited an ageing team, and that he tried to change things at once and far too quickly !to put his own stamp on the side !!

    Shades of Dowie maybe when he came in to the Valley maybe ???

    ( ccomparing the situation ... certainly not the managers! )
  • [quote][cite]Posted By: bingaddick[/cite]Darren, speak as you find but I thought on balance this documentary was pro Clough and cast a good light on him.[/quote]

    Absolutely agree. The doco was v good & did a balanced job. I was thinking more of the drama/documentary type stuff, like the book/film, that are an author's view of someone's life but can be mistaken for historical truth. Sorry if I expressed it badly, it was late :-)
  • I recorded the documentary last night, minus the sound making it a complete waste of time. I was really looking forward to watching it after work today but will now have to wait until next Friday in order to rerecord it. :-(

    Definitely need to get sky plus...
  • March Jnr. has seen the film (he's in the 'business') and says that it has certainly been toned down as compared to the book but that the performances compensate for that and are spot on. ESPN showed the 1970 Cup Final & replay the other night and although Bremner, Giles & Co. were no angels, Chopper Harris and Chelsea dished out more than they took. One head high flying ' tackle ' in the replay by Webb (I think) on Bremner and a Chopper special on Eddie Gray soon sorted them out. But Leeds were certainly the original 'No one likes us, we don't care' club.
  • started reading the book before I'd heard about the film and have just finished it - superb; Jonathan Woss gave the film the thumbs up the other night, even though he doesn't follow football, so hopefully it lives up to the quality of the book.
  • I'm reading the book at the mo. and I really don't like it one bit. The idea is a good one ie trying to portray the inner workings of Cloughie's mind, but for me it failed miserably. He was a very much more complex character, and I think Duncan Hamilton's book is far superior. I can see why the family is so upset. The documentary was very much better and gave the family a chance to have their say. But it was also sad to see Nigel Clough still bearing the scars of living in the shadows of a man hailed as a hero but who in personal life had given him a pretty tough childhood.
  • [cite]Posted By: Friend Or Defoe[/cite]I recorded the documentary last night, minus the sound making it a complete waste of time. I was really looking forward to watching it after work today but will now have to wait until next Friday in order to rerecord it. :-(

    Definitely need to get sky plus...

    Is it available on line at ITV.com?
  • [cite]Posted By: March51[/cite]March Jnr. has seen the film (he's in the 'business') and says that it has certainly been toned down as compared to the book but that the performances compensate for that and are spot on. ESPN showed the 1970 Cup Final & replay the other night and although Bremner, Giles & Co. were no angels, Chopper Harris and Chelsea dished out more than they took. One head high flying ' tackle ' in the replay by Webb (I think) on Bremner and a Chopper special on Eddie Gray soon sorted them out. But Leeds were certainly the original 'No one likes us, we don't care' club.

    I was hoping there might have been an advanced screening but not in this area anyway. I am going to try and see it, maybe even tomorrow! I really hope it's as good as I've heard and more sympathetic to his memory than the books appears to have been.
  • There was an article in one of the London freebies saying how Clough took Derby and Forest , second tier clubs on to promotion and League title success ,akin in modern days terms equivalent like doing it with Sheffield Utd.

    Surely in todays terms it would be liking taking, er, Derby County or Forest to promotion and League title success.
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  • edited March 2009
    I went to see The Damned Utd today. I have to say I really enjoyed it. Michael Sheen's portrayal of Cloughie is excellent (despite occasional traces of his Welsh accent). This is a work of entertainment and not a documentary but I think Sheen, Spall (who plays Taylor) and the bloke who plays Revie, get right under the skin of the characters.

    The rusty run down ground (which is used for The Baseball Ground) serves as a great back drop. I've not read the contraversial book but this film shows the incredible character of Cloughie in a excellent but human light. At the same time it creates the dramatic effect necessary to keep us interested in the characters and what happens to them.

    I could come over all Dickie Attenborough and wax lyrically on about character development, from charismatic youthful exuberance, to arrogance and finally to realisation and growth. That is though, how it comes over, It is done so well, and acted so brilliantly. We see the paradox of his brilliance and yet his vulnerablity and this is personified in his relationship with Peter Taylor.

    If you remember those days, you will love the film because it catches that time brilliantly. If you don't remember those days, you'll still love the footballing backdrop to the story which is great even for those who don't like football.

    One final point, I couldn't help seeing Jose Mourinho as the latter day Cloughie, although there will only ever be one Brian Clough.
  • I could come over all David Attenborough

    .......

    I think you mean dear old Dickie Attenborough, unless you think the film should have been shot on the Serengeti and involved a herd of elephants or gazelles or something.
  • [cite]Posted By: bingaddick[/cite]Did anyone watch the documentary on ITV this evening? It was certainly fascinating for somebody of my generation who grew up, so to speak with Brian. One of my earliest Charlton memories was seeing us beat his all conquering Derby side at the Valley 2-0 in 68/9. They were promoted and went on to win the Championship. We fell at the final hurdle (too many home draws in the run in) and were relegated two seasons later.

    I also remember the stuff about Leeds and his hatred of them etc.

    What an incredible bloke he was and the biggest cop out of all time was made when they didn't appoint him as England manager. He was a shoe in and yet, I kind of knew he wouldn't get the job.

    I am going to see The Damned United this weekend if I can. I haven't read the book - I'm rather glad I haven't given the furore it caused. The film is more sympathetic, I believe.

    I remember that game well both my Mum and Dad came along and we had seats in the The Stand. Only the 2nd time I'd sat at Football.
    Cloughie had fashioned a fair old team with Green in goal and Dave MCKay marshalling a defence and
    Hector and O Hare up front and Hinton supplying crosses. I recall Graham Moore and Alan Campbell having a great
    game and Matt Tees heading a winner in front of 25,000 odd crowd. I recall some of the old boys
    saying it was at least 35, 000 with many going in through the 'Gliksten' gate.
    I have to admit to being a Clough fan , not for just his football , brilliant as a player and manager but
    for daring to say what he really felt. No spin there. That's a film I want to see
  • Ray Traceys goal in that game won Goal of The Season on one of the two TV channels
  • http://www.charltonlife.com/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=23408&page=1#Item_11
  • [cite]Posted By: Goonerhater[/cite]Ray Traceys goal in that game won Goal of The Season on one of the two TV channels
    Not unlike one of his goals against Palace at Selhurst in the Cup, long range top corner drive.
  • [cite]Posted By: BlackForestReds[/cite]I think you mean dear old Dickie Attenborough

    You are right of course - now edited...doh!!
  • What was the documentary called exactly please? - so that I can search it
  • What a great manager he was, like Shankley and Paisley, legends, did not agree with a lot of his opinions but by god did he produce winning teams, what he did at Forest was unique I doubt it will ever be repeated.
    Ferguson aside there is no one in the present game that could do this.A man with faults, like George Best, but still the best IMO
  • [cite]Posted By: jimmymelrose[/cite]What was the documentary called exactly please? - so that I can search it

    The one from Wednesday night yes? It was just called Clough.

    http://www.itv.com/Sport/Football/News/Generalnews/ManualStories/ITVsCloughdocumentaryontheDamnedUnited/default.html

    Repeated next Friday and Saturday for anyone that missed it.
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