[cite]Posted By: Goonerhater[/cite]his was once used in Fire Saftey Training and if anyone has seen it then you know how horrific it is. 50 odd died i think
so why isnt this remembered every year ?
They have their own memorial service each year and don't feel the need to remind the greater footballing world every year. Rangers also have had tragedies.
[cite]Posted By: BlackForestReds[/cite]If you do something stupid expect tragic circumstances. No one is blaming the victims - they had tickets, turned up early got into the ground on time etc and found themselves towards the front. It's those idiots that turned up late, without tickets with the intention of getting in to the ground. Sure the plice and ground authorities played their part but if those fans hadn't travelled without tickets and then shoved their way in it wouldn't have happened.
So why not show a little respect for those who died?
[cite]Posted By: BlackForestReds[/cite]If you do something stupid expect tragic circumstances. No one is blaming the victims - they had tickets, turned up early got into the ground on time etc and found themselves towards the front. It's those idiots that turned up late, without tickets with the intention of getting in to the ground. Sure the plice and ground authorities played their part but if those fans hadn't travelled without tickets and then shoved their way in it wouldn't have happened.
So why not show a little respect for those who died?
What disrespect am I showing? I'm not blaming those who died, just establishing the true reasons why those 96 died. I don't see why that should upset you.
Agree Rothko. The Police and the fans both played their part in the disaster to the point where, as this thread and countless others before it illustrate, it's impossible to apportion the lion's share of the balame to either.
IMO the main point of order is, and what gets on everyone's tits, is the way the Liverpool supporters demand 'justice' for something they were equally culpable for. Add that they expect the wider footballing world to jump on their bandwagon each year and you can see why people - rightly or wrongly - take the attitude they do.
Of course Hillsborough represented the largest loss of life at a football ground but leaving aside the human suffering, the legacy of that day is on a par with that of Valley Parade IMO.
I think it's time the good people of Liverpool took their lead from Bradford, Rangers, Juve et al and stopped the blame game and remember their dearly departed with the dignity they deserve.
It's funny how people reminisce about the "good old days" - rocking up to matches without a ticket, revelling in the atmosphere, going on the lash, standing where you liked...
...except when Liverpool fans did it in 1989, and the police utterly, catastrophically screwed up the operation, they get condemned for it.
It's foolish to judge football fans of 20 years ago by the standards of what's a more sanitised age. Yes, nobody does self-pity like the Scousers and their plastic army beyond Merseyside, but anyone who actually takes the time to read the investigations into what happened, they delays in getting ambulances to the scenes, and the errors made by South Yorkshire Police that day might snap out of believing the bullshit that Kelvin MacKenzie still puts about now.
[cite]Posted By: C_f_W[/cite]I think it's time the good people of Liverpool took their lead from Bradford, Rangers, Juve et al and stopped the blame game and remember their dearly departed with the dignity they deserve.
[cite]Posted By: InspectorSands[/cite]It's funny how people reminisce about the "good old days" - rocking up to matches without a ticket, revelling in the atmosphere, going on the lash, standing where you liked...
The other night ESPN Classic was showing a 1977 UEFA Cup tie at Old Trafford and the way the Streford End was moving around was absolutely terrifying. I grew up with standing so I'm well used to that era but it was truly terrifying.
I was watching with my son and as dewy eyed as I was about it all - Motty commentating, the players of the day, the TV graphics, the size of the crowd etc - I couldn't bring myself to say how much I wish he could experience that.
It's funny how people reminisce about the "good old days" - rocking up to matches without a ticket, revelling in the atmosphere, going on the lash, standing where you liked...
The Taylor report never said anything about banning standing areas. It's main issues were the fences and pens. I think it was the FA or the Government who thought that banning terraces would reduce the violence and saw the Taylor report as an opportunity to implement it. No straight thinking Liverpool fan would shout it down, they would be too busy boycotting the sun..
but as I said the reason that standing was banned was as a direct result of that day and every time the subject is brought up again it's always without fail liverpool fans that will shout it down and bring "that day in 89"
[cite]Posted By: Inspector[/cite]
It's foolish to judge football fans of 20 years ago by the standards of what's a more sanitised age. Yes, nobody does self-pity like the Scousers and their plastic army beyond Merseyside, but anyone who actually takes the time to read the investigations into what happened, they delays in getting ambulances to the scenes, and the errors made by South Yorkshire Police that day might snap out of believing the bullshit that Kelvin MacKenzie still puts about now.
If the police hadn't opened the gate, would more of them not died outside? I think they were in a no win spot and are now the convenient blame point. As others have said as a club they've blamed everyone but themselves for the disaster and wallowed in self-pity ever since.
[cite]Posted By: BlackForestReds[/cite]If the police hadn't opened the gate, would more of them not died outside?
............
The gate was opened to eject some Liverpool fans, not to allow those outside to get in, however once it was opened more rushed in.
That's not my recollection of reading the report. The police openned the gate to ease the crush outside caused by the large number of Liverpool fans outside the gates.
In previous years the police had set up an outer cordon and had only allowed fans with tickets to approach the gates. For some reason they never did it in 1989.
IMHO a lot of people have to take at least some of the blame and that includes the Police, Sheff Wed, The FA, South Yorkshire Council and those individuals who turned up late and without tickets in the expectation (based on previous experience) of finding or forcing a way in.
Indirectly I also think any fans who misbehaved and invaded pitches and in so doing gave football clubs and the police justification for erecting pitch side fences (the actual killers) contributed to creating the set of circumstances that existed at Hillsborough and too many other games at the time.
Unfortunately English football was reactive. It only started enforcing sensible fire control after Bradford and only removed fences and looked at crowd safety (as opposed to crowd control) after Hillsborough.
I fear it will take a similar incident involving people standing in seated areas before any new thinking will be tolerated around safe standing.
The hypocrisy of SOME Liverpool fans who continue to flout safety rules and the culture of self pity displayed by SOME can not hide nor should it diminish the fact that people died going to a football match for no good reason.
RIP to all those who died and my thoughts are with their families.
[cite]Posted The Organiser[/cite]
Re, Hysel - again yes a complete tragedy but yet again, could have happened many a time before and since. Lets remember it's the Itlaian whos started that and then when it came on top, they ran. Im not saying they deserved what happened but it was the kind of situation that happened everywhere in those times.
The internet, of course, is a great place for stupid people to get across their mental views. This is one of the best examples of it I've ever seen. I sincerely hope it does not happen to you, but should a bunch of thugs murder completely innocent members of your family one day I hope that you can be as pragmatic about it and I also hope you don't have to read some pig-ignorant piece of scum blithely commenting about it on the internet in years to come.
"They died because they ran"? I imagine you think they should put it on their tombstones. What an utterly pathetic, ignorant, stupid oxygen thief you are.
Hindsight is a great thing. If you look at what the Health & Safety Excutive do when there is a major industrial incident, they look at the systemic risks that lead up to the incident. Often it's no single failing but a whole chain of events which, at any stage could have led to a different outcome.
My take on Hillsborough is precisely as series of issues which finally resulted in the tragic loss of life. What you need to do is look at the failings in effective risk identification that occured . My view of the fans turning up late without tickets is they had an absolute right to a duty of care by the organisers and the police and stewards to ensure they could get into the ground safely or be ushered away safely. There was a complete failure in risk management by the authorities, primarily the Police and the club stadium management, starting with the identification of possible ticketing problems, through crowd management to outcome scenarios. Had that been done effectively, then they would have set up the cordons which had been in operation previously, and that would almost certainly have prevented the disaster.
It is for this reason that I support the Liverpool families and don't subscribe to the view that they were masters of their own misfortune. It was this kind of attitude that for so many years led to so many workers being injured and killed at work and why Acts of Parliament like the Factories Act and in recent times the Health & Safety At Work Act, came into force leading to the safety first culture that now prevails.
The issue of safe standing areas is being conflated with the fight for justice for the Hillborough victims. I understand the position of the families but from a governance perspective, the two things are quite separate.
[quote][cite]Posted By: Mortimerician[/cite][quote][cite]Posted The Organiser[/cite] Re, Hysel - again yes a complete tragedy but yet again, could have happened many a time before and since. Lets remember it's the Itlaian whos started that and then when it came on top, they ran. Im not saying they deserved what happened but it was the kind of situation that happened everywhere in those times.[/quote] The internet, of course, is a great place for stupid people to get across their mental views. This is one of the best examples of it I've ever seen. I sincerely hope it does not happen to you, but should a bunch of thugs murder completely innocent members of your family one day I hope that you can be as pragmatic about it and I also hope you don't have to read some pig-ignorant piece of scum blithely commenting about it on the internet in years to come.
"They died because they ran"? I imagine you think they should put it on their tombstones. What an utterly pathetic, ignorant, stupid oxygen thief you are.[/quote]
So, i should keep schtum and not voice an opinion then Mortimerician? A thread was started on this and I offered my opinion. Lots of people have said (either directly or indirectly on this thread that they blame the scousers for Hillsborough & Hysel. Are you going to slate them as well?? Now as far as im aware (and I have spoken to several people in the ground (Hysel) that day - as it happens there was a Charlton fan in with Liverpool that day), What happened before/during that game was crowd trouble (started by the Italians). Liverpool ended up running at the italians, who turned and ran themselves. The tragedy then unfolded. Now I feel as bad for those who died at Hysel as I do those who died at Hillsborough/Bradford/Ibrox, as no one deserves to go to a football match and not return, ecspecially in those circumstances. What I was getting at in my previous post was that as sad as it was, the fact is that kind of situation was happening up and down our country every week in those times and that it could have happened to any set of fans at the time. You say "should a bunch of thugs murder innocent members" - Some may have been thugs Yes, but when they ran at them, after being pelted with misiles for ages (just like fans at most clubs were doing in those days), do you honestly think they intended to murder 39 innocent people?? i think that's a bit harsh tbh - I think it was a combination of everyday football violence (in those days), a ground not up to staging a big game and inept police which turned into complete and utter tragedy. It's often hard to project the way you are saying something on an internet message board and you obv took it the wrong way. I did not intend to be pragmatic about their deaths - I wasjust trying to express my opinion - maybe I can not do that as well as others can!!
As I recall Hysel was really down to UEFA ignoring the advice of the FA and the British police. They were told not to sell tickets on the day, which was ignored, and the stadium would not have passed health and safety regs as a third division stadium in Britain, all swept under the carpet in the wake of the disaster for which every club in England was ultimately blamed by UEFA. They continue to court disaster by organising big matches in places with a reputation for violence (Rome - Istanbul - Moscow), but when the baloon goes up they will undoubtedly wash their hands of it.
On the original subject, of course Hillborough was tragic, but as others have said several other clubs have had their tragedies and go about remembering their loss at a more dignified and local level.
Top post by Henry Irving above. Very often it's too easy to blame one person. I realised yesterday that I'm too guilty of this. I blamed my wife yesterday for something that resulted in a loss of 200 euros but upon reflection realised that there were in fact 4 people to blame, including myself. It's easy to blame one person / group of people but sometimes it's just a set of unfortunate circumstances and small mistakes that result in one big problem.
What is daft is if you continue to make the same mistakes and therefore risk encountering a similar problem. Therefore it's interesting to consider what Henry says about safe-seating. What happens if Liverpool fans fall down on their seats whilst standing and someone dies?
[cite]Posted By: jimmymelrose[/cite]Top post by Henry Irving above. Very often it's too easy to blame one person. I realised yesterday that I'm too guilty of this. I blamed my wife yesterday for something that resulted in a loss of 200 euros but upon reflection realised that there were in fact 4 people to blame, including myself. It's easy to blame one person / group of people but sometimes it's just a set of unfortunate circumstances and small mistakes that result in one big problem.
What is daft is if you continue to make the same mistakes and therefore risk encountering a similar problem. Therefore it's interesting to consider what Henry says about safe-seating. What happens if Liverpool fans fall down on their seats whilst standing and someone dies?
then they'll blame the f.a , the sun and the yorkshire police force won't they
The whole thing could have happened at most grounds at that time and could easily have happened to any side. Supporters and the game in general were treated with utter contempt by the authorities.
The loss of the 96 lives should never be forgotten as a reminder of dark days in the games past.
As a Father myself I can understand Trevor Hicks twenty years on still talking about the subject and the lack of accountability that has occurred as a result. To lose your two daughters at such a young age and who were totally innocent along with the other 94 was a tragedy and should never be forgotten.
It's easy to blame "drunken ticketless" fans - ecspecially when the CCTV videos go missing from the control room that night. This article just increases my view that the OB have to take the responsibility.
I have had to take a really deep breath, before adding a response to this thread. Infact I have walked away from it several times, or started to reply and then felt I should not.
I was at Hillsborough, in the leppings lane end on the 15th of April 1989 along with a friend from West kent College, we were both 19 at the time and Nick was Liverpool (old swan to be precise) born and bread. Nick had a "spare" and as in his opinion Palace were so bad they would never make an FA Cup Semi Final, he gave me the other ticket and off we went (ironically 12 months later at Villa Park it was Palace v Liverpool).
I still find it incredibly difficult to talk in detail about that day, and I find some of the comments on here utterly disgusting and totally lacking in respect for what was the untimely deaths of so many people.
Hillsborough will always draw lots of opinions both informed and ill informed, but mocking a city for feeling sorry for it's self is incredibly insensitive to all those that were affected by the events of that day.
SOS totally on the ball. I myself had to do the same with this thread and it took me a while to add my own post. 96 people died simply for being at a game.
[cite]Posted By: son of selhurst[/cite]Hillsborough will always draw lots of opinions both informed and ill informed, but mocking a city for feeling sorry for it's self is incredibly insensitive to all those that were affected by the events of that day.
I have to agree with you SOS and I was trying to say as much in my earlier post. Yes there were lots of things that went wrong but in the cold light of day, 96 inncent people set off to enjoy a fantastic day out and never returned. They were let down by the complete failure of the Authorities and espcially the South Yorkshire Police who owed them a duty of care to keep them safe and abjectly and manifestly failed to provide them with it.
Thank you for sharing that at a time which must be incredibly painful for you. I watched the events unfold in the comfort of a friends living room and I feel emotional about what I witnessed. I can only imagine what you and the thousands who were there can be thinking now.
I pray that the lessons of that day have been learnt so that nobody ever should have to go through that experience again.
Comments
IMO the main point of order is, and what gets on everyone's tits, is the way the Liverpool supporters demand 'justice' for something they were equally culpable for. Add that they expect the wider footballing world to jump on their bandwagon each year and you can see why people - rightly or wrongly - take the attitude they do.
Of course Hillsborough represented the largest loss of life at a football ground but leaving aside the human suffering, the legacy of that day is on a par with that of Valley Parade IMO.
I think it's time the good people of Liverpool took their lead from Bradford, Rangers, Juve et al and stopped the blame game and remember their dearly departed with the dignity they deserve.
...except when Liverpool fans did it in 1989, and the police utterly, catastrophically screwed up the operation, they get condemned for it.
It's foolish to judge football fans of 20 years ago by the standards of what's a more sanitised age. Yes, nobody does self-pity like the Scousers and their plastic army beyond Merseyside, but anyone who actually takes the time to read the investigations into what happened, they delays in getting ambulances to the scenes, and the errors made by South Yorkshire Police that day might snap out of believing the bullshit that Kelvin MacKenzie still puts about now.
I was watching with my son and as dewy eyed as I was about it all - Motty commentating, the players of the day, the TV graphics, the size of the crowd etc - I couldn't bring myself to say how much I wish he could experience that.
.........
Didn't we do the same at gigs?
but as I said the reason that standing was banned was as a direct result of that day and every time the subject is brought up again it's always without fail liverpool fans that will shout it down and bring "that day in 89"
Spot on!
............
The gate was opened to eject some Liverpool fans, not to allow those outside to get in, however once it was opened more rushed in.
That's not my recollection of reading the report. The police openned the gate to ease the crush outside caused by the large number of Liverpool fans outside the gates.
In previous years the police had set up an outer cordon and had only allowed fans with tickets to approach the gates. For some reason they never did it in 1989.
IMHO a lot of people have to take at least some of the blame and that includes the Police, Sheff Wed, The FA, South Yorkshire Council and those individuals who turned up late and without tickets in the expectation (based on previous experience) of finding or forcing a way in.
Indirectly I also think any fans who misbehaved and invaded pitches and in so doing gave football clubs and the police justification for erecting pitch side fences (the actual killers) contributed to creating the set of circumstances that existed at Hillsborough and too many other games at the time.
Unfortunately English football was reactive. It only started enforcing sensible fire control after Bradford and only removed fences and looked at crowd safety (as opposed to crowd control) after Hillsborough.
I fear it will take a similar incident involving people standing in seated areas before any new thinking will be tolerated around safe standing.
The hypocrisy of SOME Liverpool fans who continue to flout safety rules and the culture of self pity displayed by SOME can not hide nor should it diminish the fact that people died going to a football match for no good reason.
RIP to all those who died and my thoughts are with their families.
The interview with Trevor Hicks.
"Thanks for reminding me, the annual feel sorry for Liverpool day is almost upon us"
"What disrespect am I showing ?"
Well I pity you if you don't know. Typical though. Very good at telling others they are wrong, but never wrong yourself.
"They died because they ran"? I imagine you think they should put it on their tombstones. What an utterly pathetic, ignorant, stupid oxygen thief you are.
My take on Hillsborough is precisely as series of issues which finally resulted in the tragic loss of life. What you need to do is look at the failings in effective risk identification that occured . My view of the fans turning up late without tickets is they had an absolute right to a duty of care by the organisers and the police and stewards to ensure they could get into the ground safely or be ushered away safely. There was a complete failure in risk management by the authorities, primarily the Police and the club stadium management, starting with the identification of possible ticketing problems, through crowd management to outcome scenarios. Had that been done effectively, then they would have set up the cordons which had been in operation previously, and that would almost certainly have prevented the disaster.
It is for this reason that I support the Liverpool families and don't subscribe to the view that they were masters of their own misfortune. It was this kind of attitude that for so many years led to so many workers being injured and killed at work and why Acts of Parliament like the Factories Act and in recent times the Health & Safety At Work Act, came into force leading to the safety first culture that now prevails.
The issue of safe standing areas is being conflated with the fight for justice for the Hillborough victims. I understand the position of the families but from a governance perspective, the two things are quite separate.
Re, Hysel - again yes a complete tragedy but yet again, could have happened many a time before and since. Lets remember it's the Itlaian whos started that and then when it came on top, they ran. Im not saying they deserved what happened but it was the kind of situation that happened everywhere in those times.[/quote]
The internet, of course, is a great place for stupid people to get across their mental views. This is one of the best examples of it I've ever seen. I sincerely hope it does not happen to you, but should a bunch of thugs murder completely innocent members of your family one day I hope that you can be as pragmatic about it and I also hope you don't have to read some pig-ignorant piece of scum blithely commenting about it on the internet in years to come.
"They died because they ran"? I imagine you think they should put it on their tombstones. What an utterly pathetic, ignorant, stupid oxygen thief you are.[/quote]
So, i should keep schtum and not voice an opinion then Mortimerician? A thread was started on this and I offered my opinion. Lots of people have said (either directly or indirectly on this thread that they blame the scousers for Hillsborough & Hysel. Are you going to slate them as well??
Now as far as im aware (and I have spoken to several people in the ground (Hysel) that day - as it happens there was a Charlton fan in with Liverpool that day), What happened before/during that game was crowd trouble (started by the Italians). Liverpool ended up running at the italians, who turned and ran themselves. The tragedy then unfolded. Now I feel as bad for those who died at Hysel as I do those who died at Hillsborough/Bradford/Ibrox, as no one deserves to go to a football match and not return, ecspecially in those circumstances.
What I was getting at in my previous post was that as sad as it was, the fact is that kind of situation was happening up and down our country every week in those times and that it could have happened to any set of fans at the time.
You say "should a bunch of thugs murder innocent members" - Some may have been thugs Yes, but when they ran at them, after being pelted with misiles for ages (just like fans at most clubs were doing in those days), do you honestly think they intended to murder 39 innocent people?? i think that's a bit harsh tbh - I think it was a combination of everyday football violence (in those days), a ground not up to staging a big game and inept police which turned into complete and utter tragedy.
It's often hard to project the way you are saying something on an internet message board and you obv took it the wrong way. I did not intend to be pragmatic about their deaths - I wasjust trying to express my opinion - maybe I can not do that as well as others can!!
On the original subject, of course Hillborough was tragic, but as others have said several other clubs have had their tragedies and go about remembering their loss at a more dignified and local level.
What is daft is if you continue to make the same mistakes and therefore risk encountering a similar problem. Therefore it's interesting to consider what Henry says about safe-seating. What happens if Liverpool fans fall down on their seats whilst standing and someone dies?
then they'll blame the f.a , the sun and the yorkshire police force won't they
The loss of the 96 lives should never be forgotten as a reminder of dark days in the games past.
As a Father myself I can understand Trevor Hicks twenty years on still talking about the subject and the lack of accountability that has occurred as a result. To lose your two daughters at such a young age and who were totally innocent along with the other 94 was a tragedy and should never be forgotten.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2009/apr/13/hillsborough-disaster-police-south-yorkshire-liverpool
It's easy to blame "drunken ticketless" fans - ecspecially when the CCTV videos go missing from the control room that night. This article just increases my view that the OB have to take the responsibility.
I was at Hillsborough, in the leppings lane end on the 15th of April 1989 along with a friend from West kent College, we were both 19 at the time and Nick was Liverpool (old swan to be precise) born and bread. Nick had a "spare" and as in his opinion Palace were so bad they would never make an FA Cup Semi Final, he gave me the other ticket and off we went (ironically 12 months later at Villa Park it was Palace v Liverpool).
I still find it incredibly difficult to talk in detail about that day, and I find some of the comments on here utterly disgusting and totally lacking in respect for what was the untimely deaths of so many people.
Hillsborough will always draw lots of opinions both informed and ill informed, but mocking a city for feeling sorry for it's self is incredibly insensitive to all those that were affected by the events of that day.
A day I will never, ever forget.
I have to agree with you SOS and I was trying to say as much in my earlier post. Yes there were lots of things that went wrong but in the cold light of day, 96 inncent people set off to enjoy a fantastic day out and never returned. They were let down by the complete failure of the Authorities and espcially the South Yorkshire Police who owed them a duty of care to keep them safe and abjectly and manifestly failed to provide them with it.
Thank you for sharing that at a time which must be incredibly painful for you. I watched the events unfold in the comfort of a friends living room and I feel emotional about what I witnessed. I can only imagine what you and the thousands who were there can be thinking now.
I pray that the lessons of that day have been learnt so that nobody ever should have to go through that experience again.