the sooner everyone that was responsible that day is brought to task the better but that will never happen cos the OB never admit to anything , the FA won't take any blame and the liverpool fans will never fully admit that it was any of their own involved in what happened
Like the posters above I have turned away in disgust from some of the shamefully simplistic and offensive contributions to this thread. There was a half-hour programme on Radio 4 on the day of the anniversary in which five people who were personally involved in the tragedy spoke very eloquently and movingly about its deeply scarring effect on their lives. It moved me to tears on several occasions and I wish that all those in the relevant responsible authorities, and all individual supporters, could be made to listen to it and learn from it.
[cite]Posted By: son of selhurst[/cite]I have had to take a really deep breath, before adding a response to this thread. Infact I have walked away from it several times, or started to reply and then felt I should not.
I was at Hillsborough, in the leppings lane end on the 15th of April 1989 along with a friend from West kent College, we were both 19 at the time and Nick was Liverpool (old swan to be precise) born and bread. Nick had a "spare" and as in his opinion Palace were so bad they would never make an FA Cup Semi Final, he gave me the other ticket and off we went (ironically 12 months later at Villa Park it was Palace v Liverpool).
I still find it incredibly difficult to talk in detail about that day, and I find some of the comments on here utterly disgusting and totally lacking in respect for what was the untimely deaths of so many people.
Hillsborough will always draw lots of opinions both informed and ill informed, but mocking a city for feeling sorry for it's self is incredibly insensitive to all those that were affected by the events of that day.
A day I will never, ever forget.
I feel for you SOS - My old man was at the Ibrox disaster in 71' and I remember him saying that those who tended to blame the Rangers supporters after generally had a dislike of Rangers as a club in general. I don't think it's a rule of thumb but I'm sure if you asked those that blame the LFC supporters for hillsborough if they have a dislike or hatred of LFC or Liverpool in general they would probably answer yes.
some of the comments on here are as SOS stated disgusting and not pleasent in reading,
Why does blame have anything to do with it, Why does there have to be a BUT involved in the argument, at the end of the day 96 footie fans died in our country in one of the last old footie grounds around.
The actions of Yorkshire police have been questioned and rightly so BUT blame is also sort there, which doesnt sit comfortably with me because all the time there is the threat of blame the truth will not come out,
It was a tragic and horrific incident that has stayed with me for my whole life and i wasnt even there,
The scumbag photographers who took photos of those poor poor people at their time of need made me feel angry and sick at the time and the pictures of their faces as the last bit of air is pushed out of their lifeless bodies is etched in my mind,
yet some of the comments on here focus about the actions of a few not the poor football fans that died,
or the scum that walked up and down a line of people being crushed to death and clicked and clicked and clicked until the film ran out and reloaded their camera and clicked and again
I don't think discussing the issue is offensive to the dead. No one here is glad that anyone died. It's the post Hillsborough Justice campaign which is getting on people's goats. The fault doesn't laid solely on the police, granted they made catastrophic mistakes which could have reduced the deaths immensely, but as NLA said, what about the photographers who took photos instead of helping people who died? It's a complex situation that will never get resolved as no one is stepping forward to admitting any wrong doing.
We were at the traffic lights, in front of probably ten thousand Forest fans, all going home. I think most of us had that radio station on.
I got out of the car, and tried desperately to breathe in fresh air.
As I looked down the road, I wasn't the only person throwing up.
I don't quite understand how fans who went to footy games pre-prem and don't have any empathy with the Liverpool fans. No doubt some Liverpool fans were to blame, no doubt some fans are to blame in any incident at a sports event; this is stated in the Taylor report but as a secondary factor.
The catalogue of failures by South Yorkshire police were and are major factors. The failure to not have measures in place to deal with this was partly due to the Home Secretary removing a senior police officer from Sheffield over other political reasons; this senior police officer was well practiced at managing football games. David Duckenfield was in charge on match day and had no skill or experience with large crowds on matchdays. No police officer stopped or directed fans away from full pens. If you were rushing into the same sit to see the play off final in '98 and you knew the match hadn't been delayed which pen would you have gone for?
A catalogue of errors and occurrences happened. If you as a fan went to a match and experienced such a failing in saftey you'd want some resolution. How many fans could have been saved if ambulances were allowed proper access? Personally I don't see it as anyone person's fault but it is pretty much in the main the policing that was to blame.
If we were young lads when Charlton drew massive crowds and tickets were availble on the day (i know they weren't at Hillsborough), could it have happened to us with inept policeman? Considering how badly the police managed access to Charlton train station for years and the behaviour of policeman on horses there, especially when the sit was non-violent/threatening, I'm sure we can all see how the ineptness in policing leads to a magnifying effect that we're not in control of as individuals in a crowd; without procedures and reflection on them the individual PC is left in an impossible position.
Yes as Boris Johnson says Liverpool as a city does have a somewhat mawkish reflection but that in no way lessens the tragedy, nor were the majority who died culpable. The vast majority went with tickets and ended up dead. Fans no different to you or I.
People seem to be able to comment on the Hillsborough tragedy without mulling over the Taylor Report/Inquiry. The disaster did not happen because there were too many people in the Leppings Lane end but because of the mis-management outside the ground and the fatal error of not controlling the crowd dispersion into the pens. In the analysis there were not more fans entering the terrace than the capacity, it was the rush and their concentration; just look at the pics there's space to the sides in pens 1 & 2. So although there are many contributing factors the single biggest element was the policing of the crowd.
You may think you 'know' what happened from TV and newspapers. Unless you think about the factors that there were no police cordons around the ground stopping ticketless fans, and no crowd management of the fatal pens, let alone opening a gate without controlled access to the terrace, then I feel your 'take' on it as informed as Kelvin Mackenzie's.
Colin you will be surprised to know that I agree with all of that. The blame game can lead to name calling but if I was personally involved in this, I would want somebody or some group of people to be held to account for the loss of a loved one of mine.
This was a massive failure in crowd/stadium management, the legacy of which is now the way that major events are stewarded/policed.
Fans went to that match expecting a fantastic day out and 96 didn't return, hundreds were injured, most who were there have been scarred for life and the families of those who lost their lives have to live every day with that tragedy on their minds. To me those closest to what happened want closure and they feel, hitherto, that they haven't been given this. Who are we to deny them that?
We were at the traffic lights, in front of probably ten thousand Forest fans, all going home. I think most of us had that radio station on.
I got out of the car, and tried desperately to breathe in fresh air.
As I looked down the road, I wasn't the only person throwing up.
I cried reading that. First time I've cried since my mother-in-law died ten years ago. I remember what it was like watching it as a kid - it was obvious to me and my mum from the telly pictures that people were dying - seemingly aeons before they mentioned it on the commentary.
No-one - NO-ONE - who went to football in the eighties and remembers getting treated like absolute, utter scum by the old bill, stewards and even the public at large could possibly lay the blame for Hillsbrough at the feet of the Scouse fans. Yes they turned up late en masse looking to get in for nowt (like they always have done and still, to this day - European Cup final in Istanbul, 2005 springs to mind) but its the job of the authorities to protect the public for f***s sake. Of course they're not blameless - but nobody should ever be allowed to forget that it was largely the fault of the SYP that this tragedy happened.
just watched the re-run of "hillsborough" on ITV3,,,,,,,,,really makes you stop & think , "what if"
I know I would want justice if I had lost a son or daughter there. I don't want to comment much more as i don't know the full facts, but it seems Henry. Colin Tat and a few others just about sum it up:
many people wre to blame and to apportion it just to one segment isn't fair.....but a couple of comments on here have made me think. The next "disaster" waiting to happen is standing in seated areas. It may not be another 96 fans, it may only be 1, it may not lead to any deaths at all, but one day, something like hillsborough will happen again.
MariaCAFC and I watched the Hillsborough Remembered documentary on the History Channel last night and it's heartbreaking listening to Trevor Hicks describe how he had to choose whether to stay with his dying daughter at the ground or go with his other dying daughter in the ambulance - we don't have children but how do you choose?
Listening to the players stories was difficult too and as much as people may not like Liverpool or the Justice campaign, the families of those who died deserve the justice that they seek.
I'm not sure what is meant by justice 20 years on. I'm not sure that the families can truly recover whatever is now done. There were just so many factors coming together in a way that could not, at that time, be imagined. It changed football, hopefully for ever, it became safer and families returned. It's the only way I can think of it now and that, for me, is the legacy of that sickening day and the 96 who died. RIP.
[cite]Posted By: vancouveraddick[/cite]
I feel for you SOS - My old man was at the Ibrox disaster in 71' and I remember him saying that those who tended to blame the Rangers supporters after generally had a dislike of Rangers as a club in general. I don't think it's a rule of thumb but I'm sure if you asked those that blame the LFC supporters for hillsborough if they have a dislike or hatred of LFC or Liverpool in general they would probably answer yes.
Vancouver, I'm a catholic born and brought up in Glasgow and I will say hand on heart I have never heard a single person take the piss or lay any blame around the (second) Ibrox disaster. I know a lot of people on both sides of my city's idiotic divide and I've known many of them to say stunningly distasteful things about the other lot. But, never once on this subject. It is a totally different situation to Hillsbourough: for those who don't know Rangers fans who were already inside the ground were leaving near the end of the game because they were losing when a late goal caused a surge back that caused the deaths. No ticketless fans, no police errors, not even really any structural fault (a barrier collapsed, but I don;t think it was designed to take the pressure that was put on it). I don't much like a lot of what Rangers (or Celtic) stand for, but I can't imagine how anyone could blame anyone associated with RFC. On the other hand I'm pretty ambivalent about Liverpool and I am surprised how many people - including survivors and relatives - fail to apportion even the tiniest slice of blame to the fans that rushed the gate. At the end of the day, if there had been no police at the ground that day, there would still have been innocent lives lost. If there had been no ticketless fans, it would have just been a normal FA cup semi.
[cite]Posted By: vancouveraddick[/cite]On the other hand I'm pretty ambivalent about Liverpool and I am surprised how many people - including survivors and relatives - fail to apportion even the tiniest slice of blame to the fans that rushed the gate. At the end of the day, if there had been no police at the ground that day, there would still have been innocent lives lost. If there had been no ticketless fans, it would have just been a normal FA cup semi.
As Lord Justice Taylor said - the fans aggravated the situation, yes. But these were the late, ticket-less fans. They are not the ones that died. Those that died were innocent fans who arrived early and had a ticket. I think that the reason why the relatives 'fail to apportion even the tiniest slice of blame' is simply because they 'aggravated' the situation - the situation being a disaster that wouldn't have occurred with an able (and humane) police force.
If I go to a game I want the police to control the idiots around me, not tell me to piss off when I need their help. I think that this would make me more angry with the police than with the idiots themselves.
To use a conditional asking about an imaginary situation without any police is just stupid I'm afraid. The police are there to control the situation. If they hadn't been there then there wouldn't have been any crowd control at all, and if there hadn't been any crowd control then there wouldn't have been any fences.
P.S: Could everyone please read the links that have been posted.
Was only 3 at the time so don't remember the tragic event live as such and since read various reasons as to the cause of the tragic events of which most seem valid in temrs of poor police control and maybe a minority of fans beign drunk/without tickets which could be debated forever but those people who lost their lives did not deserve to in any way as they just went to see their favourites in action and they should be remembered.
What would concern me is that apart from one ambulances were not allowed to treat the victims in even if the poilice think it was some sort of violent pitch invasion..they must have seen injured innocent youngsters (which most of the dead 96 appear to have been) crying out for help etc?
Golfie makes the point about the next disaster being around standing in seated areas.
Hillsborough is already an emotional subject. I dont want to pour fuel on fire because I know standing in seated areas has caused some heated debates on here before.
But has in your experience a steward or anybody else ever referred to a possible tragedy occuring when standing in seated areas? Would it help or make it worse if they did?
I think it would be better that this is either tolerated within certain guidelines being laid down or not allowed at all. I know it seems harsh but we really dont want any more loss of life at football stadiums.
Imtpm, I don't want to wade into the standing in seated area debate again and generally the policing/stewarding at games is light years away from where it was 20 years ago. It is a point though. Ground safety certificates are based on people sitting not standing. A certain nelsonic blind eye is turned towards certain fans areas at most grounds I've been to recently but they run a small, but nevertheless potential risk of people falling over seats whilst standing. That said, the control of tickets into each area pretty much zero's the crush risk that happened at Hillsborough.
Bradford & Irbox were accidents, Hillsborough was an accident, however the events & dicisions from the start of this disaster made it far worse.
Many of the 96 died from not receiving first aid and being placed on thier backs on the pitch.
As for standing in a seated area, I think that the most dangerous time is after the game and everyone is leaving the ground. Should there be a problem at this time, then there could be a major problem.
That was my point earlier really...nevermind the facts which caused this tragic event (allegations ill be debated and denied forever), I was alarmed to here only one ambulance was allowed onto the pitch.
At leaat some lives might have been saved and whilst this would have not lessened the sadness of the horrors viewed on that fatal day it would have been better to allow more first aid to treat the injured (of whom most were at the front of the stands crushed by the fences)
People will think Liverpool fans should accept some of the blame which is fair enough but I doubt we will ever see any come out and admit some sort of guilt..
Old Bills mistake, end of. The police box was right over the end where the scousers were, and if they couldn't see what was going on i am a dutchman! Whether or not the scousers had no tickets, or indeed were drunk, the old bill are supposed to be there to 'serve and protect', they didn't, people died, and its their fault. No proper policing guiding fans to other less packed pens, not being able to see many many people (kids too) being pushed up against the front fences, no old bill noticing the crush barriers were folding under the pressure, or the fact they couldn't even realise that the pen was full, and not to instruct old bill at the turnstiles to stop the flow of people going down that tunnel!! Basically they were left to die by the bastad old bill. I am saying this from my heart, and posters on here who don't know me must remember i ain't a big fan of Liverpool or the scousers for that matter, but its plain, simple the old bill are to blame, and as usual they have managed to wriggle out of any blame.
Comments
I feel for you SOS - My old man was at the Ibrox disaster in 71' and I remember him saying that those who tended to blame the Rangers supporters after generally had a dislike of Rangers as a club in general. I don't think it's a rule of thumb but I'm sure if you asked those that blame the LFC supporters for hillsborough if they have a dislike or hatred of LFC or Liverpool in general they would probably answer yes.
Why does blame have anything to do with it, Why does there have to be a BUT involved in the argument, at the end of the day 96 footie fans died in our country in one of the last old footie grounds around.
The actions of Yorkshire police have been questioned and rightly so BUT blame is also sort there, which doesnt sit comfortably with me because all the time there is the threat of blame the truth will not come out,
It was a tragic and horrific incident that has stayed with me for my whole life and i wasnt even there,
The scumbag photographers who took photos of those poor poor people at their time of need made me feel angry and sick at the time and the pictures of their faces as the last bit of air is pushed out of their lifeless bodies is etched in my mind,
yet some of the comments on here focus about the actions of a few not the poor football fans that died,
or the scum that walked up and down a line of people being crushed to death and clicked and clicked and clicked until the film ran out and reloaded their camera and clicked and again
Sorry to hear you were there to witness it SOS.
Lost That Loving Feeling (Forest board)
The catalogue of failures by South Yorkshire police were and are major factors. The failure to not have measures in place to deal with this was partly due to the Home Secretary removing a senior police officer from Sheffield over other political reasons; this senior police officer was well practiced at managing football games. David Duckenfield was in charge on match day and had no skill or experience with large crowds on matchdays. No police officer stopped or directed fans away from full pens. If you were rushing into the same sit to see the play off final in '98 and you knew the match hadn't been delayed which pen would you have gone for?
A catalogue of errors and occurrences happened. If you as a fan went to a match and experienced such a failing in saftey you'd want some resolution. How many fans could have been saved if ambulances were allowed proper access? Personally I don't see it as anyone person's fault but it is pretty much in the main the policing that was to blame.
If we were young lads when Charlton drew massive crowds and tickets were availble on the day (i know they weren't at Hillsborough), could it have happened to us with inept policeman? Considering how badly the police managed access to Charlton train station for years and the behaviour of policeman on horses there, especially when the sit was non-violent/threatening, I'm sure we can all see how the ineptness in policing leads to a magnifying effect that we're not in control of as individuals in a crowd; without procedures and reflection on them the individual PC is left in an impossible position.
Yes as Boris Johnson says Liverpool as a city does have a somewhat mawkish reflection but that in no way lessens the tragedy, nor were the majority who died culpable. The vast majority went with tickets and ended up dead. Fans no different to you or I.
People seem to be able to comment on the Hillsborough tragedy without mulling over the Taylor Report/Inquiry. The disaster did not happen because there were too many people in the Leppings Lane end but because of the mis-management outside the ground and the fatal error of not controlling the crowd dispersion into the pens. In the analysis there were not more fans entering the terrace than the capacity, it was the rush and their concentration; just look at the pics there's space to the sides in pens 1 & 2. So although there are many contributing factors the single biggest element was the policing of the crowd.
You may think you 'know' what happened from TV and newspapers. Unless you think about the factors that there were no police cordons around the ground stopping ticketless fans, and no crowd management of the fatal pens, let alone opening a gate without controlled access to the terrace, then I feel your 'take' on it as informed as Kelvin Mackenzie's.
This was a massive failure in crowd/stadium management, the legacy of which is now the way that major events are stewarded/policed.
Fans went to that match expecting a fantastic day out and 96 didn't return, hundreds were injured, most who were there have been scarred for life and the families of those who lost their lives have to live every day with that tragedy on their minds. To me those closest to what happened want closure and they feel, hitherto, that they haven't been given this. Who are we to deny them that?
[b]Hillsborough Stadium, Sheffield, Saturday the 15th of April 1989[/b][/b]
RIP the 96.
No-one - NO-ONE - who went to football in the eighties and remembers getting treated like absolute, utter scum by the old bill, stewards and even the public at large could possibly lay the blame for Hillsbrough at the feet of the Scouse fans. Yes they turned up late en masse looking to get in for nowt (like they always have done and still, to this day - European Cup final in Istanbul, 2005 springs to mind) but its the job of the authorities to protect the public for f***s sake. Of course they're not blameless - but nobody should ever be allowed to forget that it was largely the fault of the SYP that this tragedy happened.
R.I.P. the 96.
I know I would want justice if I had lost a son or daughter there. I don't want to comment much more as i don't know the full facts, but it seems Henry. Colin Tat and a few others just about sum it up:
many people wre to blame and to apportion it just to one segment isn't fair.....but a couple of comments on here have made me think. The next "disaster" waiting to happen is standing in seated areas. It may not be another 96 fans, it may only be 1, it may not lead to any deaths at all, but one day, something like hillsborough will happen again.
RIP all 96.
Listening to the players stories was difficult too and as much as people may not like Liverpool or the Justice campaign, the families of those who died deserve the justice that they seek.
RIP and Justice for the 96.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2009/mar/15/hillsborough-disaster-survivors
What would concern me is that apart from one ambulances were not allowed to treat the victims in even if the poilice think it was some sort of violent pitch invasion..they must have seen injured innocent youngsters (which most of the dead 96 appear to have been) crying out for help etc?
Hillsborough is already an emotional subject. I dont want to pour fuel on fire because I know standing in seated areas has caused some heated debates on here before.
But has in your experience a steward or anybody else ever referred to a possible tragedy occuring when standing in seated areas? Would it help or make it worse if they did?
I think it would be better that this is either tolerated within certain guidelines being laid down or not allowed at all. I know it seems harsh but we really dont want any more loss of life at football stadiums.
Many of the 96 died from not receiving first aid and being placed on thier backs on the pitch.
As for standing in a seated area, I think that the most dangerous time is after the game and everyone is leaving the ground. Should there be a problem at this time, then there could be a major problem.
RIP the 96.
At leaat some lives might have been saved and whilst this would have not lessened the sadness of the horrors viewed on that fatal day it would have been better to allow more first aid to treat the injured (of whom most were at the front of the stands crushed by the fences)
People will think Liverpool fans should accept some of the blame which is fair enough but I doubt we will ever see any come out and admit some sort of guilt..
rip to the people that died.