[cite]Posted By: dabos[/cite]Henry can't be given a lengthy ban for what was only a yellow card offense.
I think the angle of people's fury is misdirected at Henry. Why aren't the referee and linesmen being questioned for such an obvious mistake?
What qusetion would you put to them?
Q. Did you see Henry handle the ball?
A. No
Should they have seen it and should there be video help are different arguments, the fact is they didn't see it.
Going back to the original question, no, there should't be a replay. Ireland had good chances in both games which they failed to take. In the cold light of day, Ireland will know that they have no-one to blame but themselves.
In the cold light of day, Ireland will know that they have no-one to blame but themselves.
That's a bit harsh, BDV.
You can't pin the blame on Ireland for being the victims of cheating - and the entire referee team's failure to observe what had happened.
Both teams had chances to score, but with just a few minutes remaining until the end of Extra Time, the two consecutive handball incidents effectively decided the match result.
The entire watching world saw what happened. It was only the referee that failed to do so.
You can't blame Ireland for that!
In the cold light of day, Ireland will know that they have no-one to blame but themselves.
That's a bit harsh, BDV.
You can't pin the blame on Ireland for being the victims of cheating - and theentire referee team's failureto observe what had happened.
Both teams had chances to score, but with just a few minutes remaining until the end of Extra Time, the two consecutive handball incidents effectively decided the match result.
The entire watching world saw what happened. It was only the referee that failed to do so.
You can't blame Ireland for that!
But 99.9% of the watching world only realised for sure that it was handball after watching the TV replays. From the referee's position there is absolutely no way he could have seen the handball. I would also question whether the linesman could have been certain it was handball; even if his view was not blocked by the goal keeper.
The fault is 100% with FIFA for their refusal to find a way of allowing the use of modern technology to prevent such incidents.
Should they have seen it and should there be video help are different arguments, the fact is they didn't see it.
[cite]Posted By: Oggy Red[/cite]
If Henri went up to him straight after and confessed handball, the referee is not permitted to take the word of a player. Once the game is restarted, then the goal will always stand.
This is why I'm suggesting a change to the rules. If FIFA aren't prepared to bring in technology, why can't the referee just ask the player whether he did it? In this case, the linesmen and ref weren't sure, and due to the reaction of the Irish players they must've known it was a bit iffy. So ask Thierry if he did it. If he lied, a ban could be administered after the game. I guess the problem is the player will probably be prepared to take the ban for the good of the team...
The referee may not be permitted to take the word of a player, but I can't see how allowing the ref to ask the player could do any harm. It's not like this was a subjective thing - Henry KNEW he'd handballed it.
[cite]Posted By: Oggy Red[/cite]
As pointed out, handball is only a yellow card offence - but the referee missed 2 separate handball incidents in quick succession. If each had been seen, the referee would have been within rights to issue 2 separate yellow cards in quick succession = red. But purely academic in any case, because neither handball incident was seen/acted on by the referee.
Perhaps the Irish players should have walked off the pitch in protest at the time. The match would have been abandoned, the Ireland FA no doubt censured - and no doubt the score would have been made the result.
But the point would have been made - and FIFA forced to confront the situation.
Oggy, obviously if the first handball was given, the game would have effectively been stopped after that - the second hand ball would therefore not have been during the active game, and therefore would not be punishable. So of course the ref is not within his right to give two yellow cards - the game is no longer active after the first offence.
And walking off, or any other so called principle would have been silly, imo. As everyone else is saying, these decisions go against different teams all the time - until they bring in technology, you have to deal with it - that's football.
And Algarve/GA, don't agree that he brought the game into disrepute. It wasn't planned or premeditated - there was no malice aforethough - it was instinctive, like making a cyncial foul to prevent a goal, or handling on the line to stop the ball crossing it. That it was missed by the officials, and that the prize of winning the game is much greater than usual, doesn't change the nature of the offence. It doesn't mkae his actions any worse. And I doubt FIFA could do what they want - they can't ban a player however they like, it has to be inkeeping with the rules they lay out - it's his livlihood, and there would be legal ramifications if they did.
[cite]Posted By: MrOneLung[/cite]I dont understand all this replay crap.
If a team has a stonewall penalty claim turned down, do they get a replay?
The answer to the above is NO.
We have all benefitted/been shafted by a handball,unseen foul, dive.
Thats life.
Could not agree with that view more and I'd also add that the game would be a lto poorer for it if we have to stop it every flipping 5 minutes because someone's called for the video ref.
Football's a simple game with a wonderful human element added to it called the ref.
In the cold light of day, Ireland will know that they have no-one to blame but themselves.
That's a bit harsh, BDV.
You can't pin the blame on Ireland for being the victims of cheating - and the entire referee team's failure to observe what had happened.
Both teams had chances to score, but with just a few minutes remaining until the end of Extra Time, the two consecutive handball incidents effectively decided the match result.
The entire watching world saw what happened. It was only the referee that failed to do so.
You can't blame Ireland for that!
No but you can blame them for letting themselves get in the position where one decision cost them the game.
Harsh maybe but the reality is that Ref's make mistakes and if you leave things to chance don't be suprised if it comes back and bites to in the arse.
Oggy, obviously if the first handball was given, the game would have effectively been stopped after that - the second hand ball would therefore not have been during the active game, and therefore would not be punishable. So of course the ref is not within his right to give two yellow cards - the game is no longer active after the first offence.
Not necessarily, Si .......hypothetically the referee might have seen the first offence but before he could react and stop the game, the second offence occurs. It would be at the referee's discretion whether he saw both incidents as a single offence or as an additional offence.
In any case, the referee is empowered to issue a yellow card whenever he deems the situation warrants it.
Not meaning to split hairs - but just to illustrate a situation may evolve and not be as cut and dried as first apparent.
My 'walking off' comment wasn't meant to say that's exactly what the Ireland should have done.
But it could have hypothetically brought a situation to a head, where huge pressure worldwide is brought upon FIFA to confront their resistance to using technology in games - especially during matches at this level of importance.
The incident happened twice. The referee failed to observe either incident.
This is evidently a situation which needs addressing urgently.
Oggy, obviously if the first handball was given, the game would have effectively been stopped after that - the second hand ball would therefore not have been during the active game, and therefore would not be punishable. So of course the ref is not within his right to give two yellow cards - the game is no longer active after the first offence.
Not necessarily, Si .......hypothetically the referee might have seen the first offence but before he could react and stop the game, the second offence occurs. It would be at the referee's discretion whether he saw both incidents as a single offence or as an additional offence.
I understand your point Oggy, but not sure I agree. I don't believe you can offend twice in succession, because if the first is deemed an offence, the second no longer counts (with the exception of violent conduct). If the ref sees both and deems both an offence, he either punishes the first one, and therefore the second one doesn't count as he is awarding a free kick for an incident that occurred before the second one, thus making the game 'dead' from that moment; or punishes only the second, having let the first go; or punishes both offences together as one offence. One player can't be punished for two identical offences one after the other - it would be like giving a player two yellow cards for tugging back a player twice within a few seconds of each other. Also, the whole idea of having a two yellow = red system is that the player has a second chance and will behave differently if he knows he already has a yellow (ie. will avoid making another yellow card offence) - he cannot be whacked with two yellows straight off, without being aware of having been punished with the initial one first.
A bit off topic, but an interesting issue though...
FIFA have quite rightly already said that the game cannot be replayed. Punish Henry ? Why. He did exactly what umpteen players do each week. A deliberate handball in the hope of getting away with it. He did this time. Tough on the ROI but that I`m afraid is football.
I understand your point Oggy, but not sure I agree......
Fair enough - it's all hypothetical anyway, Si ......... and one referee will interpret perhaps differently from another.
Interesting debate though. Cheers!
[cite]Posted By: Goonerhater[/cite]SHG sorry "upteen players" do not do thatevery week unless they are playing basketball.
So if the games not replayed(and nil chance of that as we know) and they wont hit Henry with any sort of ban, does that mean CHEATING is ok ?
GH, would you classify Henry's type of 'cheating' in the same category as the Bloodgate rugby scandal? Or in the same category as a deliberate push in the box to prevent a striker from scoring a goal?
If it's the latter, then you can't really argue for any sort of punishemnt, because that sort of 'cheating' happens every game to deliberately try and gain an advantage. Unless you are suggesting punishing EVERY type of cynical foul in football that is missed during the game.
If you think it's in the same category as the former, then there's no point me discussing it with you.
It is not cheating. It was a foul that should have resulted in a free kick.
Surely every foul is an example of cheating if you are going down that route.
Comments
What qusetion would you put to them?
Q. Did you see Henry handle the ball?
A. No
Should they have seen it and should there be video help are different arguments, the fact is they didn't see it.
Going back to the original question, no, there should't be a replay. Ireland had good chances in both games which they failed to take. In the cold light of day, Ireland will know that they have no-one to blame but themselves.
That's a bit harsh, BDV.
You can't pin the blame on Ireland for being the victims of cheating - and the entire referee team's failure to observe what had happened.
Both teams had chances to score, but with just a few minutes remaining until the end of Extra Time, the two consecutive handball incidents effectively decided the match result.
The entire watching world saw what happened. It was only the referee that failed to do so.
You can't blame Ireland for that!
Keano
But 99.9% of the watching world only realised for sure that it was handball after watching the TV replays. From the referee's position there is absolutely no way he could have seen the handball. I would also question whether the linesman could have been certain it was handball; even if his view was not blocked by the goal keeper.
The fault is 100% with FIFA for their refusal to find a way of allowing the use of modern technology to prevent such incidents.
This is why I'm suggesting a change to the rules. If FIFA aren't prepared to bring in technology, why can't the referee just ask the player whether he did it? In this case, the linesmen and ref weren't sure, and due to the reaction of the Irish players they must've known it was a bit iffy. So ask Thierry if he did it. If he lied, a ban could be administered after the game. I guess the problem is the player will probably be prepared to take the ban for the good of the team...
The referee may not be permitted to take the word of a player, but I can't see how allowing the ref to ask the player could do any harm. It's not like this was a subjective thing - Henry KNEW he'd handballed it.
There's the answer ....... ban FIFA !!
;o)
Oggy, obviously if the first handball was given, the game would have effectively been stopped after that - the second hand ball would therefore not have been during the active game, and therefore would not be punishable. So of course the ref is not within his right to give two yellow cards - the game is no longer active after the first offence.
And walking off, or any other so called principle would have been silly, imo. As everyone else is saying, these decisions go against different teams all the time - until they bring in technology, you have to deal with it - that's football.
And Algarve/GA, don't agree that he brought the game into disrepute. It wasn't planned or premeditated - there was no malice aforethough - it was instinctive, like making a cyncial foul to prevent a goal, or handling on the line to stop the ball crossing it. That it was missed by the officials, and that the prize of winning the game is much greater than usual, doesn't change the nature of the offence. It doesn't mkae his actions any worse. And I doubt FIFA could do what they want - they can't ban a player however they like, it has to be inkeeping with the rules they lay out - it's his livlihood, and there would be legal ramifications if they did.
Could not agree with that view more and I'd also add that the game would be a lto poorer for it if we have to stop it every flipping 5 minutes because someone's called for the video ref.
Football's a simple game with a wonderful human element added to it called the ref.
Times Graphic
No but you can blame them for letting themselves get in the position where one decision cost them the game.
Harsh maybe but the reality is that Ref's make mistakes and if you leave things to chance don't be suprised if it comes back and bites to in the arse.
Not necessarily, Si .......hypothetically the referee might have seen the first offence but before he could react and stop the game, the second offence occurs. It would be at the referee's discretion whether he saw both incidents as a single offence or as an additional offence.
In any case, the referee is empowered to issue a yellow card whenever he deems the situation warrants it.
Not meaning to split hairs - but just to illustrate a situation may evolve and not be as cut and dried as first apparent.
My 'walking off' comment wasn't meant to say that's exactly what the Ireland should have done.
But it could have hypothetically brought a situation to a head, where huge pressure worldwide is brought upon FIFA to confront their resistance to using technology in games - especially during matches at this level of importance.
The incident happened twice. The referee failed to observe either incident.
This is evidently a situation which needs addressing urgently.
A few more bookings (and consequent suspensions) for ungentlemanly conduct wouldn't go amiss in solving the problem in the future.
Football reflects society as a whole. Lying and cheating is de rigeur in 21st century Britain and elsewhere.
I agree 100% with his view on the matter.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/internationals/8370327.stm
I understand your point Oggy, but not sure I agree. I don't believe you can offend twice in succession, because if the first is deemed an offence, the second no longer counts (with the exception of violent conduct). If the ref sees both and deems both an offence, he either punishes the first one, and therefore the second one doesn't count as he is awarding a free kick for an incident that occurred before the second one, thus making the game 'dead' from that moment; or punishes only the second, having let the first go; or punishes both offences together as one offence. One player can't be punished for two identical offences one after the other - it would be like giving a player two yellow cards for tugging back a player twice within a few seconds of each other. Also, the whole idea of having a two yellow = red system is that the player has a second chance and will behave differently if he knows he already has a yellow (ie. will avoid making another yellow card offence) - he cannot be whacked with two yellows straight off, without being aware of having been punished with the initial one first.
A bit off topic, but an interesting issue though...
FIFA have quite rightly already said that the game cannot be replayed. Punish Henry ? Why. He did exactly what umpteen players do each week. A deliberate handball in the hope of getting away with it. He did this time. Tough on the ROI but that I`m afraid is football.
Fair enough - it's all hypothetical anyway, Si ......... and one referee will interpret perhaps differently from another.
Interesting debate though. Cheers!
So if the games not replayed(and nil chance of that as we know) and they wont hit Henry with any sort of ban, does that mean CHEATING is ok ?
GH, would you classify Henry's type of 'cheating' in the same category as the Bloodgate rugby scandal? Or in the same category as a deliberate push in the box to prevent a striker from scoring a goal?
If it's the latter, then you can't really argue for any sort of punishemnt, because that sort of 'cheating' happens every game to deliberately try and gain an advantage. Unless you are suggesting punishing EVERY type of cynical foul in football that is missed during the game.
If you think it's in the same category as the former, then there's no point me discussing it with you.
Cheating is fine, GH ....... part and parcel of the game. We know it's okay because the football authorities never seem to do anything about.
A bit like a burglary that the police can't be arsed to investigate.
;o)
funny little game..
(sorry if posted elsewhere)
Surely every foul is an example of cheating if you are going down that route.