I appreciate football clubs are a law to themselves but players have contracts and if the Administrator does not pay the wages (unlikely unless they have no funds) its breach of contract. Whether the PFA step in I am not sure. In reality players don't usually walk away as in due course they do get paid by the FL i think.
[cite]Posted By: Goonerhater[/cite]Players are part of the asset of the football club, along with the ground,training ground, equipment etc. So there is no way a player can walk away, unless the administrator agrees and its reducing mounting debt i.e wage bill. Palarses problem is they have very little asset other than the players.
Monthly wages
Normal staff 100 ? = £100,000
Players say 30 ?
Top earners say 6 on £10,000 a week = 240,000
other 24 adverage on 2,000 a week = £96,000
Total £436,000 + tax and NI cons 30% total then become over half a million a month.
I was discussing the SP situation over the weekend - as it would appear to be the major stumbling block over taking Palace out of administration and them continuing to play there.
It would appear that Jordans attempt to buy SP through a Rock Investments subsiduary, really has dropped Palace in the mire. Before Jordan 'bought' the ground, they were paying rent to Noades at about £650k PA, with the lease due for renewal this year.
Jordan got Rock to purchase (with 40% loaned by HBOS), negotiated a 25 year full repairing lease with his mate (at the time) Paul Kemsley, who was a Spurs director, for £1.2m PA, with an option to purchase within the first seven years of the lease at £18.5m (original purchase price was £12m). Nice return for Rock eh?
It also turns out that there were two 'special arrangements' as part of the lease, one of which was an agreed payment to the landlord in April of this year of £1m; the other 'special arrangement' payment is to be made for an unspecified amount on an unspecified date - probably before the seven year option to purchase is up. Who knows how much this is for.
Anyone in a property law position who could clarify this 'special arrangement' term?
Noades is out there blabbering about the only way to secure Palace's future is to purchase the freehold of SP (which he sold to a property developer for £12m). With an ageed valuation of £18.5m, at least a years back rent of £1.2m, the coming quarters rent due soon of £300k, a special arrangement fee of £1m due in April - then you have a grand total of £21m to pay before you start making any desperately needed improvements to the ground.
Then you have to buy the Club out of administration, pay the secured debtors (Agilo and there now £6m), HMRC, agree a CVA so that other creditors get a least a percentage back of what they're owed, pay the administrator............
I reckon, just to get Palace on some sort of even footing by the end of the season, any investor(s) would require £30m UP FRONT, just to start next season. Then you'd need to find half that amount again to ensure sufficient investment in the club over the next three years.
[cite]Posted By: Addickted[/cite] I reckon, just to get Palace on some sort of even footing by the end of the season, any investor(s) would require £30m UP FRONT, just to start next season. Then you'd need to find half that amount again to ensure sufficient investment in the club over the next three years.
Paul, most of us don't read Palace boards so this is new to us.
When you've got over that could you explain where Addickted has gone wrong with his maths.
You've said £30m for the Ground and redevelopment.
Addickted has said £18.5m to buy, £1.2m in unpaid rent, £300k for the next instalment and £1m in April that makes £21.3m just to get control of the ground.
That's not counting the £6m to Agilo, £1.2m to HMRC (reported to be as much as £3.6m but lets take the low figure). So with out any other debts that is another £7.2m
That makes £28.5m. That leaves £1.5 out of your £30m to develop the ground.
Then there is the £15m that Jordan wants plus any other debts that we don't yet know about.
£18.5 is the price in the lease but of course it could be sold for less if PWC want to sell it. Or PWC could just void the lease now and kick you out. Rock investments? What have they got to do with it now?
Better option for PWC would be to demand all the back rent and keep taking £1.2m a year plus the £1m payment in April. Good return for them and saves any new owner have to fork out straight away but you still wouldn't own the ground.
Holding onto the ground makes sense for PWC. 1.2m a year rent on an £18m valuation is 6.6% annual return, which in these times is bloody good. Also property prices are low, so with such a good annual return at the moment they'd be stupid to sell low now rather than collect rent and sell at a higher price in a couple of years.
[cite]Posted By: Addickted[/cite]I was discussing the SP situation over the weekend - as it would appear to be the major stumbling block over taking Palace out of administration and them continuing to play there.
It would appear that Jordans attempt to buy SP through a Rock Investments subsiduary, really has dropped Palace in the mire. Before Jordan 'bought' the ground, they were paying rent to Noades at about £650k PA, with the lease due for renewal this year.
Jordan got Rock to purchase (with 40% loaned by HBOS), negotiated a 25 year full repairing lease with his mate (at the time) Paul Kemsley, who was a Spurs director, for £1.2m PA, with an option to purchase within the first seven years of the lease at £18.5m (original purchase price was £12m). Nice return for Rock eh?
It also turns out that there were two 'special arrangements' as part of the lease, one of which was an agreed payment to the landlord in April of this year of £1m; the other 'special arrangement' payment is to be made for an unspecified amount on an unspecified date - probably before the seven year option to purchase is up. Who knows how much this is for.
Anyone in a property law position who could clarify this 'special arrangement' term?
Noades is out there blabbering about the only way to secure Palace's future is to purchase the freehold of SP (which he sold to a property developer for £12m). With an ageed valuation of £18.5m, at least a years back rent of £1.2m, the coming quarters rent due soon of £300k, a special arrangement fee of £1m due in April - then you have a grand total of £21m to pay before you start making any desperately needed improvements to the ground.
Then you have to buy the Club out of administration, pay the secured debtors (Agilo and there now £6m), HMRC, agree a CVA so that other creditors get a least a percentage back of what they're owed, pay the administrator............
I reckon, just to get Palace on some sort of even footing by the end of the season, any investor(s) would require £30m UP FRONT, just to start next season. Then you'd need to find half that amount again to ensure sufficient investment in the club over the next three years.
No wonder Gold wasn't interested.
Following on from your modern news, did you know that England won the World Cup in 1966?
What about dinosaurs being extinct?
Basically you have posted what has appeared on Palace forums in the last 2 weeks, even 2 years in the case of Jordan buying the ground through someone else which was well known back in 2007 and some of it is rubbish anyway.
We do not require £30m up front JUST to start next season.
£30m including the ground and redeveloping is more like it.
Next time you try to reveal groundbreaking news, can you at least make it something from the last decade or two?
So you expect someone to be interested in Palace but NOT to buying the ground (for £30m or whatever figure) and securing your future? This would simply lead to them being in the same financial situation as Goldberg and Jordan found themselves. Not the brightest idea........
£6m to Agilo (which is now £4m after the Moses sale and some debts paid via the FA), £1.2M to HMRC and the CVA to be secured to pay the remaining debts. Which apart from Jordan are small.
Paul, the debts are not small. It is very easy to be glib about the monies owed and you do seam to be taking for granted who will receive payment and who will part of a CVA agreement. I don’t think Jordan will just walk away; he will want a large chunk back and why not? Not to mention the other creditors.
Palace, like most clubs, doesn’t make money and in its current setup will fall back again to its present state. Quite simply and stating the obvious your club need to find some very rich people and quickly.
Ive made an application for further info on behalf of a Mr R Murray........;)
"The club offers many benefits for an investor with a key asset being the well established and highly reputable academy. - Which cost c £1m a year to run
Principal points of this opportunity are:
Established and well known brand - Not even the locals seem that bothered
26,300 capacity stadium at Selhurst Park held by way of a 25 year lease from April 2008 - So you don't get the ground as part of the deal?
Stadium FREEHOLD available - Oh look. More money to fork out!
Training ground and academy, in Beckenham, Kent, with 4 full size pitches, junior size pitches, state of the art gymnasium and physiotherapy facilities, held by the way of a 15 year lease from August 2003 - So owning these aren't part of the deal either?
In addition to 26 players professional contracts, there are 16 junior players held on scholarships - Oh that's all right then. £800k p/m in wages. What a bargain!
Revenue streams including commercial sponsorship, Football League payments and television rights, in addition to ticket sales and stadium sub-leases - This is tied up in 5 ST deals and subleased agreements which bring no future revenue into the club.
So basically what you get is a load of debt, the brand name and some player contracts which have an expiration end date. Oh and a big telly with a mortgage attached to it.
I have been reading up on all of this and it ain't pretty if you are a Palace fan.
I am not a lawyer, property or otherwise so it may be that the landlords may be forced into reducing the rent or purchase price, but otherwise, for me the problem for Palace is this:-
The landlord (via administrators PWC) may refuses to negotiate terms of the lease, or hold to the option price of £18.5M. This makes the price to buy the club and ground much higher because any new owner cannot force the landlord to sell unless they offer £18.5M.
I suspect that the Freehold value (as a Football Ground) is worth closer to £10M (After all Noades sold it for £12M a year or two back and I would think it may have depreciated a little since then).
Any landlord though making £1.2M return per annum on an asset worth say £10M would not want to give that up lightly, so why sell at the moment? I can envisage two possible outcomes of not agreeing to sell for less than £18.5M.
Scenario A)
A buyer comes in for the club, the outstanding rent is paid as part of the CVA/Administration, and the new tenant picks up the obligations under the lease including paying £1.2M for the next 20 odd years, so that the administrators for the Landlords can then sell on the Freehold with a sitting/paying tenant to realise the best price for their asset to the benefit of their creditors.
Scenario
Nobody buys the club and Palace go bust, they won't get all the outstanding rent back, but they will then be sitting on an asset which is a football ground, without a club. They can then apply for a change of use, and, assuming this cannot be blocked indefinitely, they will wind up with some highly desirable/valuable real estate which may be worth double what it is as a football ground.
To me this could be a real stumbling block. If rich fans come in with millions to burn, yes they may take the freehold/lease situation on at face value. Maybe they are prepared to offer £18.5M to secure the clubs future, maybe they are prepared to work within the current leasehold arrangements but its a major stumbling block in my view.
If I was pauldcpfc, SOS, Budgie etc, I would be pretty worried about this. I would be seeking to put pressure on the Council to maintain the usage of the land as a football ground. I'd be trying to get all the politicians, the local paper, etc to mount a campaign to save the club. As Lloyds TSB are the main creditor for the freehold, I'd be stirring them up in a very public way.
[cite]Posted By: Charlton Dan[/cite]
So basically what you get is a load of debt, the brand name and some player contracts which have an expiration end date. Oh and a big telly with a mortgage attached to it.
My God they're f**ked!
If you buy any football club, that's pretty much what you get, although usually it comes with some land that you can flog to Sainsburys
Palace are the only club I know that haven't offloaded players to balance the books. We had to and got relegated, Southampton had to and got relegated, Leeds had to and got relegated. It seems it will be the end of the season before they have to get rid of all their current crop. Sousa was right, a 10 point deduction is not enough as they now have a good chance of getting into the playe offs under Warnock. The rules should be changed to go as far as stating that if a club enters administration it cannot be promoted. Currently Palace are a fairly attractive proposition when looking at the current team and management. Fortunately, they don't own their own ground which makes them less attractive to buyers.
Reading more issues that have come up including the recent articles on Jordan in the Telegraph and Mirror, it is clear that Jordan has mortgaged/sold everything he can to try and keep the club going.
The current crisis reached a head when he tried to mortgage the future talent of the clubs academy through a Hero Fund arranged by Seymour Pearce. It would have given the club access to £7.5M of funds but the arrangements fell through.
So given that
1. The club doesn't own its own ground or training ground (and leases the former on unfavourable terms)
2. The catering is franchised with presumably a small royalty payment due
3. Much of the season ticket revenue in future years has been spent due to the offers for long-term deals
4. The club shop is franchised out
5. The clubs has mortgaged via floating charge over all of its assets, the first £5M of player sales receipts etc
6. And if he had had his way, he would have mortgaged the stars of the future as well
No wonder nobody wanted to buy the club before it went into administration.
It remains to be seen if, with a CVA to pay down some debt including football and to other secure creditors, and the catering and shop can be brought back in to revenue generation; there is enough in it with all the other problems like the rent/freehold issues, for somebody now to step up to the plate.
According to David Sullivan Palace also owe West Ham £200k.
I can assume this is for Freddy Seers' loan but that seems an awful lot of money for a 3 month loan so could be for something else.
Good news for West Ham is that FL will take the cash off the top of the Moses fee like the £100k for Hudson. That will make a big dent in the £100m Wham owe.
Can't beleive there is some special April payment due on the lease of £1M, very unusual in a commercial property lease...and as for 6.6% being anywhere near an acceptable return on the freehold investment for PWC in the current climate - not a chance...for this sor tof risky investment I would imagine 12% would be closer to the truth...which does at least mean that if the rent is £1.2M then anyone buying Palace should be able to get their hands on the ground for only a bit over £10m potentially. Tbh if the Ground was purchased by Rok for £12M and they put in 40% then any offer where the Bank can exit its debt in full would probably be accepted. Banks are not there to sit on property.
At the end of the day, all these numbers fly about but the reality is that Palace are in a whole load of debt, have promised away most of their future income streams and would require people with very deep pockets to dig them out...even in this climate there usually seems to be some mug about who will do this so i doubt they will go under but we live in hope!
Have been reading Lennie's book about Hulmer, similar to Tangoman and Goldberg really. Some mug with a love of Palace, plus a desire to be a hero will take on Palace, become a hero for a while, become a name in the paper and then wonder where all their money has gone....will probably regret it!
21,383 at Palace v Swansea last night or at least that was the gate given out.
Addickted will no doubt know the actual turnstile figure. 10 - 11k I would guess.
Still not in the relegation zone and Swansea are a good side. Palace's squad, as it stands, is good enough to beat the likes of Scunthorpe and Peterborough (ie other relegation contenders) so that should be enough to keep them up.
Even if they lose a couple of players going out on loan Warnock is an experienced manager and will most likely do enough to keep them in the CCC.
Comments
Said all along we are in the wrong league for a takeover.
Looking at the criteria, that rules Palace out as well.
Link
According to an article in The Guardian the wage bill is c £800k p/m
Said all along we are in the wrong league for a takeover.[/quote]
Looking at the criteria, that rules Palace out as well.[/quote]
the 8th one on that list would rule out the vast majority of clubs
It would appear that Jordans attempt to buy SP through a Rock Investments subsiduary, really has dropped Palace in the mire. Before Jordan 'bought' the ground, they were paying rent to Noades at about £650k PA, with the lease due for renewal this year.
Jordan got Rock to purchase (with 40% loaned by HBOS), negotiated a 25 year full repairing lease with his mate (at the time) Paul Kemsley, who was a Spurs director, for £1.2m PA, with an option to purchase within the first seven years of the lease at £18.5m (original purchase price was £12m). Nice return for Rock eh?
It also turns out that there were two 'special arrangements' as part of the lease, one of which was an agreed payment to the landlord in April of this year of £1m; the other 'special arrangement' payment is to be made for an unspecified amount on an unspecified date - probably before the seven year option to purchase is up. Who knows how much this is for.
Anyone in a property law position who could clarify this 'special arrangement' term?
Noades is out there blabbering about the only way to secure Palace's future is to purchase the freehold of SP (which he sold to a property developer for £12m). With an ageed valuation of £18.5m, at least a years back rent of £1.2m, the coming quarters rent due soon of £300k, a special arrangement fee of £1m due in April - then you have a grand total of £21m to pay before you start making any desperately needed improvements to the ground.
Then you have to buy the Club out of administration, pay the secured debtors (Agilo and there now £6m), HMRC, agree a CVA so that other creditors get a least a percentage back of what they're owed, pay the administrator............
I reckon, just to get Palace on some sort of even footing by the end of the season, any investor(s) would require £30m UP FRONT, just to start next season. Then you'd need to find half that amount again to ensure sufficient investment in the club over the next three years.
No wonder Gold wasn't interested.
Instead Gold went to West Ham who required £100m!
When you've got over that could you explain where Addickted has gone wrong with his maths.
You've said £30m for the Ground and redevelopment.
Addickted has said £18.5m to buy, £1.2m in unpaid rent, £300k for the next instalment and £1m in April that makes £21.3m just to get control of the ground.
That's not counting the £6m to Agilo, £1.2m to HMRC (reported to be as much as £3.6m but lets take the low figure). So with out any other debts that is another £7.2m
That makes £28.5m. That leaves £1.5 out of your £30m to develop the ground.
Then there is the £15m that Jordan wants plus any other debts that we don't yet know about.
£1.4m. They owe us 100k!!
Will already have been paid from the Moses money as that has to go via the FL first and they divert it to us.
Then again who knows what other payments are due and when? And not just to us.
Better option for PWC would be to demand all the back rent and keep taking £1.2m a year plus the £1m payment in April. Good return for them and saves any new owner have to fork out straight away but you still wouldn't own the ground.
"The club offers many benefits for an investor with a key asset being the well established and highly reputable academy. - Which cost c £1m a year to run
Principal points of this opportunity are:
Established and well known brand - Not even the locals seem that bothered
26,300 capacity stadium at Selhurst Park held by way of a 25 year lease from April 2008 - So you don't get the ground as part of the deal?
Stadium FREEHOLD available - Oh look. More money to fork out!
Training ground and academy, in Beckenham, Kent, with 4 full size pitches, junior size pitches, state of the art gymnasium and physiotherapy facilities, held by the way of a 15 year lease from August 2003 - So owning these aren't part of the deal either?
In addition to 26 players professional contracts, there are 16 junior players held on scholarships - Oh that's all right then. £800k p/m in wages. What a bargain!
Revenue streams including commercial sponsorship, Football League payments and television rights, in addition to ticket sales and stadium sub-leases - This is tied up in 5 ST deals and subleased agreements which bring no future revenue into the club.
So basically what you get is a load of debt, the brand name and some player contracts which have an expiration end date. Oh and a big telly with a mortgage attached to it.
My God they're f**ked!
I am not a lawyer, property or otherwise so it may be that the landlords may be forced into reducing the rent or purchase price, but otherwise, for me the problem for Palace is this:-
The landlord (via administrators PWC) may refuses to negotiate terms of the lease, or hold to the option price of £18.5M. This makes the price to buy the club and ground much higher because any new owner cannot force the landlord to sell unless they offer £18.5M.
I suspect that the Freehold value (as a Football Ground) is worth closer to £10M (After all Noades sold it for £12M a year or two back and I would think it may have depreciated a little since then).
Any landlord though making £1.2M return per annum on an asset worth say £10M would not want to give that up lightly, so why sell at the moment? I can envisage two possible outcomes of not agreeing to sell for less than £18.5M.
Scenario A)
A buyer comes in for the club, the outstanding rent is paid as part of the CVA/Administration, and the new tenant picks up the obligations under the lease including paying £1.2M for the next 20 odd years, so that the administrators for the Landlords can then sell on the Freehold with a sitting/paying tenant to realise the best price for their asset to the benefit of their creditors.
Scenario
Nobody buys the club and Palace go bust, they won't get all the outstanding rent back, but they will then be sitting on an asset which is a football ground, without a club. They can then apply for a change of use, and, assuming this cannot be blocked indefinitely, they will wind up with some highly desirable/valuable real estate which may be worth double what it is as a football ground.
To me this could be a real stumbling block. If rich fans come in with millions to burn, yes they may take the freehold/lease situation on at face value. Maybe they are prepared to offer £18.5M to secure the clubs future, maybe they are prepared to work within the current leasehold arrangements but its a major stumbling block in my view.
If I was pauldcpfc, SOS, Budgie etc, I would be pretty worried about this. I would be seeking to put pressure on the Council to maintain the usage of the land as a football ground. I'd be trying to get all the politicians, the local paper, etc to mount a campaign to save the club. As Lloyds TSB are the main creditor for the freehold, I'd be stirring them up in a very public way.
The current crisis reached a head when he tried to mortgage the future talent of the clubs academy through a Hero Fund arranged by Seymour Pearce. It would have given the club access to £7.5M of funds but the arrangements fell through.
So given that
1. The club doesn't own its own ground or training ground (and leases the former on unfavourable terms)
2. The catering is franchised with presumably a small royalty payment due
3. Much of the season ticket revenue in future years has been spent due to the offers for long-term deals
4. The club shop is franchised out
5. The clubs has mortgaged via floating charge over all of its assets, the first £5M of player sales receipts etc
6. And if he had had his way, he would have mortgaged the stars of the future as well
No wonder nobody wanted to buy the club before it went into administration.
It remains to be seen if, with a CVA to pay down some debt including football and to other secure creditors, and the catering and shop can be brought back in to revenue generation; there is enough in it with all the other problems like the rent/freehold issues, for somebody now to step up to the plate.
I can assume this is for Freddy Seers' loan but that seems an awful lot of money for a 3 month loan so could be for something else.
Good news for West Ham is that FL will take the cash off the top of the Moses fee like the £100k for Hudson. That will make a big dent in the £100m Wham owe.
At the end of the day, all these numbers fly about but the reality is that Palace are in a whole load of debt, have promised away most of their future income streams and would require people with very deep pockets to dig them out...even in this climate there usually seems to be some mug about who will do this so i doubt they will go under but we live in hope!
Ha ha 200k! That's Kieron Dyer's February wages covered then!
Some mug with a love of Palace, plus a desire to be a hero will take on Palace, become a hero for a while, become a name in the paper and then wonder where all their money has gone....will probably regret it!
Addickted will no doubt know the actual turnstile figure. 10 - 11k I would guess.
Still not in the relegation zone and Swansea are a good side. Palace's squad, as it stands, is good enough to beat the likes of Scunthorpe and Peterborough (ie other relegation contenders) so that should be enough to keep them up.
Even if they lose a couple of players going out on loan Warnock is an experienced manager and will most likely do enough to keep them in the CCC.