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any refs out there? ...........The unwritten rule

If someone has already brought this subject up then ignore this post.

This has bothered me for sometime and after watching the game on monday its still very worrying and I think it could be seen to be as cheating.

We've all seen hundreds of games where offenses/fouls that happen out side of the area are usually given as fouls but when they occur in the box they are not. I think in the mind of the ref he gives a 50/50 decision. The nicky bailey incident on monday shows that, if that had happened outside of the box I think the ref would have given a free kick to us. Because it happened inside the box he's given the benefit of the doubt to the defender because in his mind he's not sure if there's contact and by giving him the benefit of the doubt then the only alternative is that bailey dived, so a booking. So if it happened outside the box then the punishment is lesser to give the decision to the attacker wheras in the box if he's not sure he can take easy option and go with the defender.

So in a way a form of cheating or just not being upto it?

Also the decision not to send off Blizzard was a disgrace. Again if that had happened in the 70th minute for example, I can be sure the guy would have been sent off.

So is there an unwritten rule that if incidents occur in the first five minutes of a game the full punishment is not given, the same can also be said of awarding a pen in the first 5 minutes, I don't think I have ever seen one.
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Comments

  • There are no unwritten rules - just written laws and directives.
  • So in the written laws does it state that no red card should be brandished in the first minute because it wouldn't be fair?
  • or a case of the boy that cried wolf
  • edited February 2010
    It's up to the ref how he interprets each incident...in the case of Monday he thought that the challenge on Basey was only worth a yellow i don't think i would have made any difference what minute it happened he still would have only given out a yellow card.
  • So its not cheating just inconsistency and being incompetent?

    No one in the greater authority ever does anything about it and its not like the ref is on his own out on the pitch as he has a couple of ref assistants and a fourth official
  • to be fair (although i may be the only one who thinks this) at the time i didn't think it was a red card, only after seeing replays was it obvious to me he should've been sent off. ref's only see it once remember. agree about the Bailey incident though.
  • Ok - why can a defender deliberately obstruct a striker in order to let a ball roll out for a goal kick?
    If you did that in the centre circle it would be a definite free kick.
    Can any of the refs explain this to me?
  • edited February 2010
    When you talk about officials, you have to remember the human factor. Individuals will always show inconsistency from one to another. People are not robots.

    Most refs avoid getting too liberal with the cards too early. If you caution or send off a player, or award a penalty early on, you have to be certain. By being too card happy, you set the standard for the remainder of the game, and that can get you into a real mess. By the rules of the game, such an approach isn't right, but many refs do seem to adopt this view.

    The Bailey incident on Monday was a poor decision in my view. In situations like that, I think refs avoid giving decisions to the attacking side because the consequence of getting it wrong is significant. Outside the box, if you give the foul incorrectly, all you have done is inflict a free-kick against the defending side, not a penalty, so less significance attached to a wrong decision. I know you can take the reverse view (ie that the attacking side has been unfairly done by), but maintaining the status quo has always been regarded as preferential to changing the situation dramatically by making a wrong decision. Not defending it, just saying that's the way it is.

    With regard to defenders 'deliberately obstructing a striker' ... that isn't strictly what is happening. A player is only guilty of deliberate obstruction when he is not in control or in play of the ball (Sam Sodje did it in our penalty area in the first half on Monday, and got away with it). What you see when a defender shepherds the ball out for a goal kick etc is the defender making sure that the ball is still under his control (ie close enough to him that he could play it) while keeping the striker away from the ball with his body. That is 'shielding the ball', not obstructing the striker. To the ref, it's no different to a striker holding the ball up in the centre circle and keeping the defender at bay with his arse, back, shoulders etc.
  • We got a penalty within he first couple of mins at Wolves a few years back..........Brown missed and we went on to lose the game.

    Thats you theory blown out the water.
  • 1974 World cup final. Pen awarded before defending team had touched the ball.
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  • Good thread this. At last it shows a human side to refereeing and shows with all the advances the FA has made to improve officiating the human factor will always remain. These things I believe are:

    Giving a decision outside and not inside the box is catergorically NOT cheating. No match offical is a cheat.
    If you give a penalty you have to be 1000% certain it's definitely a foul because if you're wrong and team scores from it it's a massive mistake.
    No law saying you shouldn't give a red in the first minute.
    The Nicky Bailey diving/yellow card was harsh. If you have to be 1000% certain it's a penalty, you also have to 1000% certain it's simulation.
    When a defender is screening the ball (with his back) usually for a goal kick it's legal and it's in the LoAF and isn't obstruction.
    I still don't believe if Blizzard had committed that foul in ANY minute of the game he'd been sent off, I saw it as a yellow on first viewing and that's all the ref gets, one version from one angle at full speed, if he's not looking directly at the boot making contact with the leg (the ball had gone remember) for that split second then he's not going to see the contact.
    This argument about consistency wrankles with me. Referees have to take every single decision on its own merits whether there's 1 foul in the game or 100. There's no such thing really as inconsistency when all incidents are different, all games are different, all players are different and all referees are different and fans of either side will see the same challenge totally differently again leading to this 'inconsistency' thing again. As regards supposed 'incompetency', the FA does so much to help the development of referees and the officals themselves put a hell of a lot of time, effort and training into being and improving as a football league referee and I cannot stress how difficult it is to get that high up and how good (and bloody fit) you have to be, how many games you have to complete, and excel at a lower level, before you get the chance to be a level 1 referee.
  • [cite]Posted By: Henry Irving[/cite]1974 World cup final. Pen awarded before defending team had touched the ball.

    And the referee was Jack Taylor who is English! lol
  • [cite]Posted By: WereByFarTheGreatest[/cite]So its not cheating just inconsistency and being incompetent?

    No one in the greater authority ever does anything about it and its not like the ref is on his own out on the pitch as he has a couple of ref assistants and a fourth official

    I do agree if the 4th official sees a replay and can tell the referee to issue a red to correct the incorrect yellow. This cannot happen now but may come in sometime in the future.
  • I think the problem was that Bassey kick the ball with his right foot and this masked the point of impact on his left leg. Had it been the other way round I think the ref would have given Blizzard a red.
  • [cite]Posted By: Spankie[/cite]
    [cite]Posted By: WereByFarTheGreatest[/cite]So its not cheating just inconsistency and being incompetent?

    No one in the greater authority ever does anything about it and its not like the ref is on his own out on the pitch as he has a couple of ref assistants and a fourth official

    I do agree if the 4th official sees a replay and can tell the referee to issue a red to correct the incorrect yellow. This cannot happen now but may come in sometime in the future.

    Good posts here, Spankie.

    One thing ...... some referees make their decisions instantly - and once made it's difficult for them to retract that decision.

    Other referees stop the game, deal with the situation first (attention to the injured player, perhaps consult the nearest assistant) - and only then call the player over to show the card ......... giving themselves time to weigh up the context and a better chance of making the right decision.

    Easy for me to be wise after the event, of course - but Trevor Kettle had no need to make his Basey decision so quickly, especially as it was so evident there was a player who had received serious injury.
  • [cite]Posted By: Oggy Red[/cite]
    [cite]Posted By: Spankie[/cite]
    [cite]Posted By: WereByFarTheGreatest[/cite]So its not cheating just inconsistency and being incompetent?

    No one in the greater authority ever does anything about it and its not like the ref is on his own out on the pitch as he has a couple of ref assistants and a fourth official

    I do agree if the 4th official sees a replay and can tell the referee to issue a red to correct the incorrect yellow. This cannot happen now but may come in sometime in the future.

    Good posts here, Spankie.

    One thing ...... some referees make their decisions instantly - and once made it's difficult for them to retract that decision.

    Other referees stop the game, deal with the situation first (attention to the injured player, perhaps consult the nearest assistant) - and only then call the player over to show the card ......... giving themselves time to weigh up the context and a better chance of making the right decision.

    Easy for me to be wise after the event, of course - but Trevor Kettle had no need to make his Basey decision so quickly, especially as it was so evident there was a player who had received serious injury.

    Sounds logical, but is there a danger in that that the decision of the ref will be too heavily inflenced by the extent of the injury? Not all injuries are the result of fouls, some are just bad luck.
  • Sure, Stig ...... but in a situation like that, the referee has the opportunity to buy a little time (the game is stopped for attention to the injured player, anyway) and perhaps consult an assistant for a second opinion.

    IMO, he then has a better chance to ensure his decision is correct.
  • Spankie, what was your opinion of the yellow card Burton got for "clattering" the keeper?
  • Good question, Ali.
  • [cite]Posted By: WereByFarTheGreatest[/cite]So its not cheating just inconsistency and being incompetent?

    No one in the greater authority ever does anything about it and its not like the ref is on his own out on the pitch as he has a couple of ref assistants and a fourth official


    He get's one view, one time, at real time. Mistakes will happen, just seems some refs make more than others (read kettle)

    As for Bailey, can we really be surprised that the ref got it wrong, Bailey is a cheat, simple as that, how we can bitch and moan when he gets treated like one is beyond me.
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  • Referees, being human, may be affected by a player's attitude throughout a game. If Bailey followed me about the pitch bleating at every decision (as he does sometimes), I'd quite enjoy booking him for diving, even if I wasn't 100% sure!

    I'm sure the party line would be to deny this.
  • edited February 2010
    [quote][cite]Posted By: MrOneLung[/cite]Ok - why can a defender deliberately obstruct a striker in order to let a ball roll out for a goal kick?
    If you did that in the centre circle it would be a definite free kick.
    Can any of the refs explain this to me?[/quote]

    I'm not a ref, but as I understand it, it is not obstruction if the player is within a yard of the ball.
    Edited to say why do I never get these "quote" thingies right?
  • [cite]Posted By: Oggy Red[/cite]Sure, Stig ...... but in a situation like that, the referee has the opportunity to buy a little time (the game is stopped for attention to the injured player, anyway) and perhaps consult an assistant for a second opinion.

    IMO, he then has a better chance to ensure his decision is correct.
    I'm with you.
  • He was probably sure in his own mind he was going to give a yellow, so why wait? That wouldn't have changed his mind.
  • [cite]Posted By: cafcfan[/cite]
    [cite]Posted By: MrOneLung[/cite]Ok - why can a defender deliberately obstruct a striker in order to let a ball roll out for a goal kick?
    If you did that in the centre circle it would be a definite free kick.
    Can any of the refs explain this to me?

    I'm not a ref, but as I understand it, it is not obstruction if the player is within a yard of the ball.
    Edited to say why do I never get these "quote" thingies right?

    Click the 'BBCode' radio button under where you type in your comment :)
  • I wonder what this ref/lino combo's excuse was?

    http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/19012010/58/bundesliga-fsv-frankfurt-stage-phantom-goal-competition.html
  • How the players can celebrate that is beyond me.
  • Just come to this thread and agree it is very interesting and reasoned. OK, we can agree that it wasnt so easy for Kettle to determine how bad the tackle was. But what still rankles with me is the dual standards in the use of TV for retrospective punishment. The FA line is that they only use it when the ref has missed something.That tells us that they are more concerned with upholding the sanctity of ref decisions than stamping out serious foul play. That does nobody any good, including refs. Better to say , no slight on the ref who has to make an instant decision but TV evidence tells us that was horrible, and we will always take retrospective action.
    Look at this news re retrospective action re Patrick Viera. The ref Alan Wiley is now saying that he didnt 'properly' see it before, and now sees it as a redcard offence. Not that the Stoke player had to leave the pitch, let alone go to hospital.
    Well, Mr Kettle? And his apologists among you?
  • [cite]Posted By: PragueAddick[/cite]Just come to this thread and agree it is very interesting and reasoned. OK, we can agree that it wasnt so easy for Kettle to determine how bad the tackle was. But what still rankles with me is the dual standards in the use of TV for retrospective punishment. The FA line is that they only use it when the ref has missed something.That tells us that they are more concerned with upholding the sanctity of ref decisions than stamping out serious foul play. That does nobody any good, including refs. Better to say , no slight on the ref who has to make an instant decision but TV evidence tells us that was horrible, and we will always take retrospective action.
    Look atthis newsre retrospective action re Patrick Viera. The ref Alan Wiley is now saying that he didnt 'properly' see it before, and now sees it as a redcard offence. Not that the Stoke player had to leave the pitch, let alone go to hospital.
    Well, Mr Kettle? And his apologists among you?

    I agree with your first point Prague. I always felt the FA's stance on this didn't do ref's any favours.

    Not sure what your second point is. The FA will intervene if no punishment is handed down during the game. The Stoke thing was a high profile incident in the premier and the media have sought a quote from the player. (They also have a funny sound-bite about the size of his tool!) Had he issued a yellow at the time, Viera wouldn't have been charged and it wuldn't have been so news-worthy.
  • I could talk for about an hour about how atrotious that referee was, I remember we had Kettle against Scunthorpe in the first game of 2007 season and he had an apalling game then, one of my mates (palace fan) commented that he was notorious at that level and expect nothing less than a ruined game if he's involved.

    He wasn't lying.

    The guy should have walked for that challenge, kettle had a perfect view of it and bottled it simple as. He saw the bloke go to ground, put his foot over the ball and almost snap Baseys standing leg.

    He see's that, as a foul, and a yellow card offence.

    Complete and utter plate
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