[cite]Posted By: IA[/cite]RedZed, maybe you should find out what PR means. Most British voters also should find out what it really means, but you're the one giving your opinion on it here now.
I'm not giving MY opinions on PR, I saying that the politicians know the general public know so little about it that that's how they'll dress it up...
Simple scare tactics work every time....
Ah yes of course. Sorry about that.
I had to laugh when I heard someone saying on Newsnight that FPTP was important to keep because it was the simplest system for voters. That's all well and good, it's easy to put an X in a box, but you don't have people voting tactically to keep Labour/Tories/Lib Dems out in PR.
Labour's offer doesn't seem great, OA. It's not a whole lot better than what we've heard from the Tories. I don't think the Lib Dems want AV, and Hague said it was coalition the Tories were offering. Maybe it's as simple as what you were saying - Lib Dems find it easier to go into coalition with Labour than Conservatives.
[cite]Posted By: IA[/cite]RedZed, maybe you should find out what PR means. Most British voters also should find out what it really means, but you're the one giving your opinion on it here now.
I'm not giving MY opinions on PR, I saying that the politicians know the general public know so little about it that that's how they'll dress it up...
Simple scare tactics work every time....
Ah yes of course. Sorry about that.
I had to laugh when I heard someone saying on Newsnight that FPTP was important to keep because it was the simplest system for voters. That's all well and good, it's easy to put an X in a box, but you don't have people voting tactically to keep Labour/Tories/Lib Dems out in PR.
Labour's offer doesn't seem great, OA. It's not a whole lot better than what we've heard from the Tories. I don't think the Lib Dems want AV, and Hague said it was coalition the Tories were offering. Maybe it's as simple as what you were saying - Lib Dems find it easier to go into coalition with Labour than Conservatives.
Its a very tough situation.
I am a Labour man but I am uneasy about the proposed Lab-Lib-Nats pact as it will be near impossible to keep all those differing views in line on many issues.
On the other hand a Con-Lib pact would be impossible on any reasonable viewing of their policies - especially on Europe and Immigration.
The best bet, in my view (and even though I hate the Tories) would be a minority Tory government proceeding but having to tread very carefully on legislation because of the threat of anything outside the central consensus being voted down by the Lib Dems.
If the Lab/Lib and nationals join together, the scots and the welsh will want no cuts in Scotalnd and Wales as part of the deal, if this happens, then the English will have to rise up and say enough is enough.
Despite voting for a party not a PM, can anyone seriously say it is right to have a 2nd unelected PM? What was the point of Jock Brown having TV debates saying HE is the man to lead the country and then it is not him leading!!
I find all this fascinating, not living in the UK, i watched SKy news for hours last night, but my overwhelming thoughts were we are going down a slippery slope into civil war.
If the Lab/Lib and nationals join together, the scots and the welsh will want no cuts in Scotalnd and Wales as part of the deal, if this happens, then the English will have to rise up and say enough is enough.
For all his many faults, Gordon Broon's legacy will be that, at the time it mattered most, he took decisive action to shore up the banks debts and prevent a depression turning into a 1930's recession. We are living with the consequences of an archaic system of governement that effectively de-enfranchises 50% of the population at every election and allows the very rich to manipulate the voters courtesy of the papaers. It's not fit for purpose anymore. I'm hoping with all my heart that this time, we will seize the chance to move to a true system of proportional representation and that we will get a progressive alliance. The cuts we are going to have to suffer will be severe and I just want a government that will at least try to help the poorest and most vulnerable in our society. Under Cameron, there was no chance of that at all.
Under a Lab/Lib/Scot Nat/Welsh Nat/Ulster Unionist/Anyone else they can find.
So called 'progressive alliance' the only people who need worry about cuts, is the people of England. 'Cause they won't allow any in the other countries of the (dis)United Kingdom.
Did i say? England voted Conservative................
If this is the outcome of PR that the lib dems want, where all the manifesto 'values' are negotiated away, and we have a coalition of the 'loosers' or the 'Khaki Rainbow alliance'.... Every shade of ' Brown'. do not be surprissed if you get covered in s**it! The country needs a party with vision and strength of character, consenses politics however sensible in theory will fail, because it has no real support base!.
At least John Reed had the courage to come clean last night, Labour need to regroup and formulate there policies..... The thought of Ed Balls and the Milliband(s) makes you want to check that your passport is valid so you can leave the country quickly....
That's 106 more than their nearest rival.
That's 62 more than all the 'opposition' put together.
As i said, England voted Conservative
By the way, i'm not a Conservative voter (nor Lab/Lib)
[cite]Posted By: Henry Irving[/cite]
...this all seems strange to us but it happens all the time in other countries including strong economies such as Germany.
Henry,
This argument keeps getting trotted out BUT:
1. For every Germany there is an Italy
2. These are the political systems that have facilitated the great Frankenstein’s monster that is the Euro, whose collapse may have been delayed but has been made even more certain by the vast sums of guarantees “pledged” yesterday (to which we are contributing by the way despite not being a member of the single currency) but that simply could not be honoured by all contributing nations if they were to be called upon. By attempting to shore up an unworkable monetary union and ignoring the imperative for either the PIIGS (or better still Germany itself) to leave the Euro, the EU itself will become increasingly unstable. The riots in Athens could easily be a taste of what is to come in the next decade across a number of European cities.
3. Thank God that, by virtue of retaining our own currency, we are not in it right up to necks. HOWEVER, if we had had PR over the past 10 years the Lib Dems and Europhiles of other parties could easily have arm-twisted the government into it. We would be toast economically today if that had happened.
I personally think Clegg is playing a blinder, this country needs to get rid of First Past the Post, Im sick of voting in elections where my vote doesnt count, how is that democratic.
[quote][cite]Posted By: PeanutsMolloy[/cite][quote][cite]Posted By: Henry Irving[/cite] ...this all seems strange to us but it happens all the time in other countries including strong economies such as Germany. [/quote]
3. Thank God that, by virtue of retaining our own currency, we are not in it right up to necks. HOWEVER, if we had had PR over the past 10 years the Lib Dems and Europhiles of other parties could easily have arm-twisted the government into it. We would be toast economically today if that had happened.[/quote]
[cite]Posted By: Thommo[/cite]I personally think Clegg is playing a blinder, this country needs to get rid of First Past the Post, Im sick of voting in elections where my vote doesnt count, how is that democratic.
The best form of electoral reform is FTFP+, whereby the largest party, regardless of whether it has a majority, has its seats topped up so that it has a comfortable majority.
;o)
[cite]Posted By: Henry Irving[/cite]there will be no riots and no civil war. That is just not going to happen.
The tories bang on about unelected PMs but we dont elect a PM we vote for our local MP. That is one of the elements of FPTP.
The tories also seem to have forgotten that 5 of the lsst 6 unelected 0s were tory including Churchill.
You first point...Quite so, that's not how we do it! I hope that there are demonstrations though.
Your second...I'm not sure it's the Tories who "bang on about unelected PM's" The Media do and indeed so do the public. Whilst you are factually correct 'we' don't elect a PM. Can you honestly say a) everyone understands that?
b) The leader and his/her personality has no influence in which party gets elected. When Blair rose to Leader of the Lab. The country voted Labour into power on the basis of this 'straight sorta guy' taking over from the 'corrupt Tories (IMO)
Your third....... Doesn't make sense.
[cite]Posted By: Henry Irving[/cite]
...this all seems strange to us but it happens all the time in other countries including strong economies such as Germany.
3. Thank God that, by virtue of retaining our own currency, we are not in it right up to necks. HOWEVER, if we had had PR over the past 10 years the Lib Dems and Europhiles of other parties could easily have arm-twisted the government into it. We would be toast economically today if that had happened.
[cite]Posted By: Henry Irving[/cite]
...this all seems strange to us but it happens all the time in other countries including strong economies such as Germany.
Henry,
This argument keeps getting trotted out BUT:
1. For every Germany there is an Italy
[quote][cite]Posted By: PeanutsMolloy[/cite][quote][cite]Posted By: Thommo[/cite]I personally think Clegg is playing a blinder, this country needs to get rid of First Past the Post, Im sick of voting in elections where my vote doesnt count, how is that democratic.[/quote]
The best form of electoral reform is FTFP+, whereby the largest party, regardless of whether it has a majority, has its seats topped up so that it has a comfortable majority. ;o)[/quote]
Haha think Ill stick with my preference for Single Transferable Vote.
Ill give you the plausible (but not the highly) ;o)
Whoever takes power is going to have some pretty unpopular decisions to make regarding taxes etc which will have to be hiked up substantially. So it may be a bit of a poisoned chalice. The problem for the Tories is that whilst they could sit back and watch the other parties' fragile allegiances play out in front of the electorate, which would possibly give them a real chance of majority government in a couple of years, if PR is taken up in the meantime, it may not help them achieve that. For the Lib Dem's this is their one chance of a taste of power and so they will do a deal with someone, so personally I cannot see a minority Tory government happening. I think the time for electoral reform has probably finally arrived whether we like it or not.
[cite]Posted By: Thommo[/cite, Im sick of voting in elections where my vote doesnt count, how is that democratic.
I've heard this statement a lot in recent days and it just doesn't make sense, of course it counts, all votes count, that's the idea of voting, so everyones vote is counted and then everyone knows exactly where everyone elses political allegiances lie...
I think what you, and others really mean is you're sick of your party being beaten out of site by the main parties...
But that's how a democracy works, no one said it had to be fair....
[cite]Posted By: Thommo[/cite]I personally think Clegg is playing a blinder, this country needs to get rid of First Past the Post, Im sick of voting in elections where my vote doesnt count, how is that democratic.
The best form of electoral reform is FTFP+, whereby the largest party, regardless of whether it has a majority, has its seats topped up so that it has a comfortable majority.
;o)
A bit like Greece then?
Going back to unelected PMs, deal with it. No PM was elected. Conservatives, Labour, Lib Dems etc ALL got a minority of votes and of seats. No PM was elected to that office. An unelected PM was inevitable once the votes were counted, whether that was Brown, Cameron or Miliband
[quote][cite]Posted By: RedZed333[/cite][quote][cite]Posted By: Thommo[/cite, Im sick of voting in elections where my vote doesnt count, how is that democratic.[/quote] I've heard this statement a lot in recent days and it just doesn't make sense, of course it counts, all votes count, that's the idea of voting, so everyones vote is counted and then everyone knows exactly what everyone elses political allegiances lie...
I think what you, and others really mean is you're sick of your party being beaten out of site by the main parties...
But that's how a democracy works, no one said it had to be fair....[/quote]
Society is made up of broad groups and i think that parliament should be a representative plurality of that, as much as I abhor the BNP and their policies if they got 3% of the votes in this country they should 3% of the seats, that is representative and that is democracy, not the elective dictatorship we have at the moment.
Yes my vote is counted but should it be worth more or less depending on where I live in the country?
[cite]Posted By: Thommo[/cite, Im sick of voting in elections where my vote doesnt count, how is that democratic.
I've heard this statement a lot in recent days and it just doesn't make sense, of course it counts, all votes count, that's the idea of voting, so everyones vote is counted and then everyone knows exactly what everyone elses political allegiances lie...
I think what you, and others really mean is you're sick of your party being beaten out of site by the main parties...
But that's how a democracy works, no one said it had to be fair....
Society is made up of broad groups and i think that parliament should be a representative plurality of that, as much as I abhor the BNP and their policies if they got 3% of the votes in this country they should 3% of the seats, that is representative and that is democracy, not the elective dictatorship we have at the moment.
Yes my vote is counted but should it be worth more or less depending on where I live in the country?
Your vote isn't worth less because of where you live, it's worth less because more people where you live have differing points of view to yours and voting reflects this....
Comments
Ah yes of course. Sorry about that.
I had to laugh when I heard someone saying on Newsnight that FPTP was important to keep because it was the simplest system for voters. That's all well and good, it's easy to put an X in a box, but you don't have people voting tactically to keep Labour/Tories/Lib Dems out in PR.
Labour's offer doesn't seem great, OA. It's not a whole lot better than what we've heard from the Tories. I don't think the Lib Dems want AV, and Hague said it was coalition the Tories were offering. Maybe it's as simple as what you were saying - Lib Dems find it easier to go into coalition with Labour than Conservatives.
Its a very tough situation.
I am a Labour man but I am uneasy about the proposed Lab-Lib-Nats pact as it will be near impossible to keep all those differing views in line on many issues.
On the other hand a Con-Lib pact would be impossible on any reasonable viewing of their policies - especially on Europe and Immigration.
The best bet, in my view (and even though I hate the Tories) would be a minority Tory government proceeding but having to tread very carefully on legislation because of the threat of anything outside the central consensus being voted down by the Lib Dems.
Lab/Con pact...?
Con being the operative word...
if this were any other country we would have had one by now i reckon,
can you imagine a riot by tories other than one caused by tories now that would turn the decades on their head
90's poll tax riots 2010 the tory vote riots
If the Lab/Lib and nationals join together, the scots and the welsh will want no cuts in Scotalnd and Wales as part of the deal, if this happens, then the English will have to rise up and say enough is enough.
Despite voting for a party not a PM, can anyone seriously say it is right to have a 2nd unelected PM? What was the point of Jock Brown having TV debates saying HE is the man to lead the country and then it is not him leading!!
I find all this fascinating, not living in the UK, i watched SKy news for hours last night, but my overwhelming thoughts were we are going down a slippery slope into civil war.
Spot on ol' chap. England voted Conservative.
So called 'progressive alliance' the only people who need worry about cuts, is the people of England. 'Cause they won't allow any in the other countries of the (dis)United Kingdom.
Did i say? England voted Conservative................
The tories bang on about unelected PMs but we dont elect a PM we vote for our local MP. That is one of the elements of FPTP.
The tories also seem to have forgotten that 5 of the lsst 6 unelected 0s were tory including Churchill.
The country needs a party with vision and strength of character, consenses politics however sensible in theory will fail, because it has no real support base!.
At least John Reed had the courage to come clean last night, Labour need to regroup and formulate there policies..... The thought of Ed Balls and the Milliband(s) makes you want to check that your passport is valid so you can leave the country quickly....
Con 297
Lab 191
Lib 43
Green 1
That's 106 more than their nearest rival.
That's 62 more than all the 'opposition' put together.
As i said, England voted Conservative
By the way, i'm not a Conservative voter (nor Lab/Lib)
Henry,
This argument keeps getting trotted out BUT:
1. For every Germany there is an Italy
2. These are the political systems that have facilitated the great Frankenstein’s monster that is the Euro, whose collapse may have been delayed but has been made even more certain by the vast sums of guarantees “pledged” yesterday (to which we are contributing by the way despite not being a member of the single currency) but that simply could not be honoured by all contributing nations if they were to be called upon. By attempting to shore up an unworkable monetary union and ignoring the imperative for either the PIIGS (or better still Germany itself) to leave the Euro, the EU itself will become increasingly unstable. The riots in Athens could easily be a taste of what is to come in the next decade across a number of European cities.
3. Thank God that, by virtue of retaining our own currency, we are not in it right up to necks. HOWEVER, if we had had PR over the past 10 years the Lib Dems and Europhiles of other parties could easily have arm-twisted the government into it. We would be toast economically today if that had happened.
...this all seems strange to us but it happens all the time in other countries including strong economies such as Germany. [/quote]
3. Thank God that, by virtue of retaining our own currency, we are not in it right up to necks. HOWEVER, if we had had PR over the past 10 years the Lib Dems and Europhiles of other parties could easily have arm-twisted the government into it. We would be toast economically today if that had happened.[/quote]
Ifs, buts and conjecture
The best form of electoral reform is FTFP+, whereby the largest party, regardless of whether it has a majority, has its seats topped up so that it has a comfortable majority.
;o)
You first point...Quite so, that's not how we do it! I hope that there are demonstrations though.
Your second...I'm not sure it's the Tories who "bang on about unelected PM's" The Media do and indeed so do the public. Whilst you are factually correct 'we' don't elect a PM. Can you honestly say a) everyone understands that?
b) The leader and his/her personality has no influence in which party gets elected. When Blair rose to Leader of the Lab. The country voted Labour into power on the basis of this 'straight sorta guy' taking over from the 'corrupt Tories (IMO)
Your third....... Doesn't make sense.
but highly plausible
What is wrong with Italy?
The best form of electoral reform is FTFP+, whereby the largest party, regardless of whether it has a majority, has its seats topped up so that it has a comfortable majority.
;o)[/quote]
Haha think Ill stick with my preference for Single Transferable Vote.
Ill give you the plausible (but not the highly) ;o)
For the Lib Dem's this is their one chance of a taste of power and so they will do a deal with someone, so personally I cannot see a minority Tory government happening.
I think the time for electoral reform has probably finally arrived whether we like it or not.
The Greece bailout is going to cost them 1yr worth of taxes! Even the germans are up in Arms.
And how are they paying for propping up Europe? they are talking about cutting the education budget!
My good friend is a german and he is looking at ways to put his money into norway than germany!
I think what you, and others really mean is you're sick of your party being beaten out of site by the main parties...
But that's how a democracy works, no one said it had to be fair....
A bit like Greece then?
Going back to unelected PMs, deal with it. No PM was elected. Conservatives, Labour, Lib Dems etc ALL got a minority of votes and of seats. No PM was elected to that office. An unelected PM was inevitable once the votes were counted, whether that was Brown, Cameron or Miliband
I've heard this statement a lot in recent days and it just doesn't make sense, of course it counts, all votes count, that's the idea of voting, so everyones vote is counted and then everyone knows exactly what everyone elses political allegiances lie...
I think what you, and others really mean is you're sick of your party being beaten out of site by the main parties...
But that's how a democracy works, no one said it had to be fair....[/quote]
Society is made up of broad groups and i think that parliament should be a representative plurality of that, as much as I abhor the BNP and their policies if they got 3% of the votes in this country they should 3% of the seats, that is representative and that is democracy, not the elective dictatorship we have at the moment.
Yes my vote is counted but should it be worth more or less depending on where I live in the country?