Just a terrible incident. That man must have had that brewing in him for ages, an unforgivable act, beyond rhyme or reason. Dreadful for everyone concerned just a nightmare.
I can understand people snapping and maybe, after a dispute with your brother, maybe killing him in a rage. But then to think what the hell I'm going down so I may as well go out with a bang, I really don't get it. How deranged must you be. From listening to the news though it seems that he still 'chose' his victims in that on a couple of occasions he had opportunity to shoot women with children and didn't and in that not one child was killed or harmed so he was still thinking a bit rationally.
Does anyone else find it a bit odd that even after he has killed himself the Police are searching 30 crime scenes and will spend weeks/months piecing together what happened and in what sequence. Why ? There isn't going to be a trial, the man is dead so why waste the resources and time. Yes, investigate if he had a gun licence and if all procedures to let him have one/keep one were followed correctly but a massive investiagtion seems a waste to me.
There may be a back story and criminal convictions associated with it. It's worth investigating why he snapped. Also, this type of thing will happen again somewhere, and it's the job of the police to prevent them, so knowing the full facts of the case will help them understand the situation and help prevent it happening again.
I would also say that the families and friends of the deceased would appreciate a full story of what happened and why.
Rumour is that he had gone to the hospital in the past few weeks staiting taht he felt he was losing control and was truely worried about his state of mind.
There is so much to be learned from things like this but ultimately the mind is precious and mental health so delicate not enough support or help available, it is such an embarrsing condition that folks dont know where to turn.
[cite]Posted By: LargeAddick[/cite]
I can understand people snapping and maybe, after a dispute with your brother, maybe killing him in a rage.
Watch out Golfie and Jimmy : - 0
Seriously, RIP to all those affected.
A surprisingly high level of young men have mental health problems often depression.
For some that turns into violence and often against people they know. With others it is self harm/suicide or reliance on drink/drugs.
Jung would say that men (not women) need to justify themselves in the world in terms of status, wealth, strength etc and for some this is expressed in violence.
It could have been residual brain damage from the attack Curb-it mentions but I guess we will never now.
[cite]Posted By: LargeAddick[/cite]first of all condolances to all involved.
I can understand people snapping and maybe, after a dispute with your brother, maybe killing him in a rage. But then to think what the hell I'm going down so I may as well go out with a bang, I really don't get it. How deranged must you be. From listening to the news though it seems that he still 'chose' his victims in that on a couple of occasions he had opportunity to shoot women with children and didn't and in that not one child was killed or harmed so he was still thinking a bit rationally.
Although clearly deranged, you're right in that he must still have been thinking a bit rationally as he also killed a couple of cabbies he'd had a row with and his old boss who sacked him, as well as his brother. So they weren't all completely random.
[cite]Posted By: LargeAddick[/cite]first of all condolances to all involved.
I can understand people snapping and maybe, after a dispute with your brother, maybe killing him in a rage. But then to think what the hell I'm going down so I may as well go out with a bang, I really don't get it. How deranged must you be. From listening to the news though it seems that he still 'chose' his victims in that on a couple of occasions he had opportunity to shoot women with children and didn't and in that not one child was killed or harmed so he was still thinking a bit rationally.
Although clearly deranged, you're right in that he must still have been thinking a bit rationally as he also killed a couple of cabbies he'd had a row with and his old boss who sacked him, as well as his brother. So they weren't all completely random.
He also killed a solicitor who was supposed to be dealing with a will he was involved in, or not as the case maybe.
I notice one of the victims was a solicitor and there has been speculation that he had tax problems.
Could he have been a victim of intransigent State bureaucracy which finally drove him mad through frustration and anxiety?
I know how frustrating and difficult it was to get my daughter's student loan through, and we had done eveything properly by the required deadlines, particularly when you cannot speak to anybody. I had to get my MP involved and even he had difficulties.
Nothing excuses the murder and wounding of innocent people but I'd bet that any enquiry will not conclude that Government department draconian overbearing attitudes and incompetence drove a working man to this if he did have tax problems.
The conclusion will inevitably be either that he was a criminal so illegally owned his gun or owned it legally cue tightening up on gun laws blah, blah, blah and punishing innocent people.
For that reason I'm inclined to agree with Large that an enquiry is a total waste of time. That said though the families of the victims have the right to know WHY if that can indeed be determined.
It seems like he had a "little black book" of people that had upset him in the past.
Dealing with beaurocracy or even your bank, let alone solicitors who drag matters on and on interminably, can cause extreme frustration and even despair. I guess many of us have experienced that to some degree or another.
Living on his own, perhaps he had no one to talk it all out with, and it all built up in his head before one situation too many arose and he snapped. He won't have been the first - nor will he be the last, no doubt.
[cite]Posted By: MrOneLung[/cite]Henry said:
A surprisingly high level of young men have mental health problems often depression.
Indeed - suicide is the number one cause of death in men aged between 18-34
lost a good, good friend to suicide when we were both 20.
Proud to say that the Charlton Trust run a programme with Oxleas NHS Trust which I did a little bit to make happen.
Mental Health Programme
This is a new programme that started in 2008. With 1 in 4 people expected to have a period of mental illness within their life time the Scheme recognised that Football and other physical activities can help in a client’s rehabilitation. Currently we are running programmes with the Kent and Medway NHS Trust Early Intervention Service (Psychosis) through out the County engaging clients in physical activity. Recently this work has been recognised and won the Kent nomination for the Regional “Best of Health” Awards.
In conjunction with The Oxleas NHS Trust (Bracton Centre and the Cray Community Centre) sessions are being run at the Charlton Athletic Training Ground.
The Scheme also recognises the importance of the Positive Mental Attitude League (PMA) which allows competitive opportunities for clients with mental health issues and we are currently working in partnership with this Organisation to further develop opportunities.
[cite]Posted By: MrOneLung[/cite]
Indeed - suicide is the number one cause of death in men aged between 18-34
How else are 18-34 year olds going to be dying in significant numbers though?
Awful story, and no matter how you look at it, just incomprehensible. Killing yourself is one thing, but to cause untold suffering to so many others is another. Somehow Len, I think there were deeper issues than being pissed off with a company or government agency. Didn't think I'd see someone suggest it was the government's fault that some bloke went on a mental shooting riot before topping himself but now I have.
[cite]Posted By: MrOneLung[/cite]
Indeed - suicide is the number one cause of death in men aged between 18-34
How else are 18-34 year olds going to be dying in significant numbers though?
Awful story, and no matter how you look at it, just incomprehensible. Killing yourself is one thing, but to cause untold suffering to so many others is another. Somehow Len, I think there were deeper issues than being pissed off with a company or government agency. Didn't think I'd see someone suggest it was the government's fault that some bloke went on a mental shooting riot before topping himself but now I have.
RIP to everyone involved
I'm just trying to rationalise the irrational.
This was a man in his fifties whom had seemingly lived a good, honest, hardworking life and had been married with children and a grandchild.
Something very, very major must have happened for him to act as he did. The solicitor was allegedly shot before he started the random attacks and it was reported on the news that he may have had tax problems which suggests to me frustration even desperation.
Goverment departments and private companies treat their clients / customers with contempt and arrogance especially if there is no where else, or the staff of those organisations perceive that there is no where else, for those people to go.
[cite]Posted By: MrOneLung[/cite]Henry said:
A surprisingly high level of young men have mental health problems often depression.
Indeed - suicide is the number one cause of death in men aged between 18-34
I hear what you are saying and I too lost a friend to suicide when we were both 20 years old, but the guy in this case was 52.
True.
but who knows how long he had had mental health problems?
I'm not an expert but would it not be likely that for some MH problems continue past the age of 34 and actions may be triggered by some sort of trauma ie divorce or becoming a grandfather.
He shot Gary Purdham. I watch his brother play RL at Quins. What a waste. RIP fella & all who perished. Whatever reason, no excuses & he took the cowards way out. I feel for his family.
[cite]Posted By: LenGlover[/cite]Could he have been a victim of intransigent State bureaucracy which finally drove him mad through frustration and anxiety?
I know how frustrating and difficult it was to get my daughter's student loan through, and we had done eveything properly by the required deadlines, particularly when you cannot speak to anybody. I had to get my MP involved and even he had difficulties.
Sorry no idea what your personal gripe about irritating administration has to do with this particular mass murder. You're just guessing about what drove him to it and trying to draw some vague parallels that aren't there. I can't really express how crass putting these two things together is.
[cite]Posted By: LenGlover[/cite]Nothing excuses the murder and wounding of innocent people but I'd bet that any enquiry will not conclude that Government department draconian overbearing attitudes and incompetence drove a working man to this if he did have tax problems.
You say nothing excuses murder of innocent people, then imply that an inquiry wouldn't suggest that an incompetent government department was an excuse for the man choosing to murder innocent people - presumably because in your mind you've already decided that - as a result of some personal irritation - that it was probably the reason. All this despite nobody having any idea that it had anything to do with a government department. Odd.
[cite]Posted By: LenGlover[/cite]The conclusion will inevitably be either that he was a criminal so illegally owned his gun or owned it legally cue tightening up on gun laws blah, blah, blah and punishing innocent people.
I'd imagine that since it's a matter of record that he did have a gun licence for 20 years, that it would be a poor use of the inquiry's time. Interestingly the men responsible for Hungerford and Dunblane were also legal gun owners, so maybe somebody putting a bit of thought into "tightening up gun laws blah blah blah", might not be as stupid an attack on innocent freedoms as you imply.
[cite]Posted By: LenGlover[/cite]For that reason I'm inclined to agree with Large that an enquiry is a total waste of time. That said though the families of the victims have the right to know WHY if that can indeed be determined.
Uh huh. So an enquiry is a waste of time (based on your guess that it won't find the government guilty of murder), but the victims families might like to have some closure - so I wonder how else they might they get it - I'm guessing they'd be looking for something a bit more concrete than wild internet speculation?
Sorry to pick apart pretty much everything you've said, but it's just not been well thought out or even researched. Lots of people got shot in the face, it's got nothing to do with the government or lefty media the gun control agenda or having a hard time with student loans. A cursory read over the story - even in a tabloid rag - would have confirmed that. What's you posted isn't rationalising anything.
My post was made 5 hours ago and further information has subsequently come to light.
1. My "crass" parallel was based on Mark Austin's report on last night's news suggesting tax problems as a possible reason. Not speculation by me. I mention my own experience simply because it WAS extremely stressful and frustrating.
You try and support your daughter with thousands of pounds of money you don't have and have not budgeted for because you have been led to believe that she will receive that money via a State you have paid UNINTERRUPTED National Insurance contributions and PAYE to support for well over 35 years. This when you also have other family financial responsibilities that you cannot avoid.
If you have not had such an experience then take it from me it is both stressful and frustrating particularly when you cannot contact anybody. Our situation was resolved eventually by our MP and even he admitted to having difficulties.
I simply posed a question knowing how desperate I felt.
2. Enquiries tend to be "whitewashes" the David Kelly affair for example. I cannot think of one off the top of my head where Government departments have admitted wrongdoing. Doubtless you (or ANother) will quote an instance but as I say I cannot think of one.
3. 5 hours ago it was NOT in the public domain that he had a gun licence for 20 years hence my comment.
As I said nothing excuses the murder of innocent people but there must be something that turned a decent man bad.
We are often told that muggers and other violent criminals should not be imprisoned because they themselves are victims in that they are drug addicts or poor so it is not their fault. In other words we seek a reason for the crime.
That is all I tried to do.
For the avoidance of doubt if Mr Bird was still alive I would lock him up for life and hope that life meant life in the same way as I believe muggers should be locked up for a long time. The evil crime of mugging and other violent crime makes decent, innocent, lawabiding people frightened to venture onto the streets especially after dark and in my view that is wrong. The streets should belong to the hardworking not the criminal.
Many people get a beating or loose family, or their loved ones or their life style. many have f**k all and life treats em like dog shit but they dont tell people one day they are going to slaughter them and then the next day shoot dead 12 people. The main thing this arse hole got wrong was he started backwards---- if his life was that bad he should have started where he finished by shooting himself.
warning very poor tastes joke--- dont read if easily ofended . . . . . . . . . . .. Big drink up in Cumbria fist 20 shots are free and the last one does your head in.
[cite]Posted By: McLovin[/cite]
I'd imagine that since it's a matter of record that he did have a gun licence for 20 years, that it would be a poor use of the inquiry's time. Interestingly the men responsible for Hungerford and Dunblane were also legal gun owners, so maybe somebody putting a bit of thought into "tightening up gun laws blah blah blah", might not be as stupid an attack on innocent freedoms as you imply.
Indeed. You can't legislate for people 'flipping' or letting their frustrations boil over, but you can limit the chance that they'll have access to a weapon that can kill a lot of people in a short space of time
[cite]Posted By: McLovin[/cite]
I'd imagine that since it's a matter of record that he did have a gun licence for 20 years, that it would be a poor use of the inquiry's time. Interestingly the men responsible for Hungerford and Dunblane were also legal gun owners, so maybe somebody putting a bit of thought into "tightening up gun laws blah blah blah", might not be as stupid an attack on innocent freedoms as you imply.
Indeed. You can't legislate for people 'flipping' or letting their frustrations boil over, but you can limit the chance that they'll have access to a weapon that can kill a lot of people in a short space of time
Equally the vast majority of people using weapons responsibly are penalised.
The British shooting and rifle teams cannot even practice their sport in their own country because of our gun laws!
Comments
That man must have had that brewing in him for ages, an unforgivable act, beyond rhyme or reason.
Dreadful for everyone concerned just a nightmare.
I can understand people snapping and maybe, after a dispute with your brother, maybe killing him in a rage. But then to think what the hell I'm going down so I may as well go out with a bang, I really don't get it. How deranged must you be. From listening to the news though it seems that he still 'chose' his victims in that on a couple of occasions he had opportunity to shoot women with children and didn't and in that not one child was killed or harmed so he was still thinking a bit rationally.
Does anyone else find it a bit odd that even after he has killed himself the Police are searching 30 crime scenes and will spend weeks/months piecing together what happened and in what sequence. Why ? There isn't going to be a trial, the man is dead so why waste the resources and time. Yes, investigate if he had a gun licence and if all procedures to let him have one/keep one were followed correctly but a massive investiagtion seems a waste to me.
I would also say that the families and friends of the deceased would appreciate a full story of what happened and why.
That's a guess.
There is so much to be learned from things like this but ultimately the mind is precious and mental health so delicate not enough support or help available, it is such an embarrsing condition that folks dont know where to turn.
Watch out Golfie and Jimmy : - 0
Seriously, RIP to all those affected.
A surprisingly high level of young men have mental health problems often depression.
For some that turns into violence and often against people they know. With others it is self harm/suicide or reliance on drink/drugs.
Jung would say that men (not women) need to justify themselves in the world in terms of status, wealth, strength etc and for some this is expressed in violence.
It could have been residual brain damage from the attack Curb-it mentions but I guess we will never now.
Although clearly deranged, you're right in that he must still have been thinking a bit rationally as he also killed a couple of cabbies he'd had a row with and his old boss who sacked him, as well as his brother. So they weren't all completely random.
He also killed a solicitor who was supposed to be dealing with a will he was involved in, or not as the case maybe.
Could he have been a victim of intransigent State bureaucracy which finally drove him mad through frustration and anxiety?
I know how frustrating and difficult it was to get my daughter's student loan through, and we had done eveything properly by the required deadlines, particularly when you cannot speak to anybody. I had to get my MP involved and even he had difficulties.
Nothing excuses the murder and wounding of innocent people but I'd bet that any enquiry will not conclude that Government department draconian overbearing attitudes and incompetence drove a working man to this if he did have tax problems.
The conclusion will inevitably be either that he was a criminal so illegally owned his gun or owned it legally cue tightening up on gun laws blah, blah, blah and punishing innocent people.
For that reason I'm inclined to agree with Large that an enquiry is a total waste of time. That said though the families of the victims have the right to know WHY if that can indeed be determined.
Dealing with beaurocracy or even your bank, let alone solicitors who drag matters on and on interminably, can cause extreme frustration and even despair. I guess many of us have experienced that to some degree or another.
Living on his own, perhaps he had no one to talk it all out with, and it all built up in his head before one situation too many arose and he snapped. He won't have been the first - nor will he be the last, no doubt.
But that doesn't excuse what he did.
A surprisingly high level of young men have mental health problems often depression.
Indeed - suicide is the number one cause of death in men aged between 18-34
lost a good, good friend to suicide when we were both 20.
Proud to say that the Charlton Trust run a programme with Oxleas NHS Trust which I did a little bit to make happen.
Mental Health Programme
This is a new programme that started in 2008. With 1 in 4 people expected to have a period of mental illness within their life time the Scheme recognised that Football and other physical activities can help in a client’s rehabilitation. Currently we are running programmes with the Kent and Medway NHS Trust Early Intervention Service (Psychosis) through out the County engaging clients in physical activity. Recently this work has been recognised and won the Kent nomination for the Regional “Best of Health” Awards.
In conjunction with The Oxleas NHS Trust (Bracton Centre and the Cray Community Centre) sessions are being run at the Charlton Athletic Training Ground.
The Scheme also recognises the importance of the Positive Mental Attitude League (PMA) which allows competitive opportunities for clients with mental health issues and we are currently working in partnership with this Organisation to further develop opportunities.
How else are 18-34 year olds going to be dying in significant numbers though?
Awful story, and no matter how you look at it, just incomprehensible. Killing yourself is one thing, but to cause untold suffering to so many others is another. Somehow Len, I think there were deeper issues than being pissed off with a company or government agency. Didn't think I'd see someone suggest it was the government's fault that some bloke went on a mental shooting riot before topping himself but now I have.
RIP to everyone involved
I hear what you are saying and I too lost a friend to suicide when we were both 20 years old, but the guy in this case was 52.
I'm just trying to rationalise the irrational.
This was a man in his fifties whom had seemingly lived a good, honest, hardworking life and had been married with children and a grandchild.
Something very, very major must have happened for him to act as he did. The solicitor was allegedly shot before he started the random attacks and it was reported on the news that he may have had tax problems which suggests to me frustration even desperation.
Goverment departments and private companies treat their clients / customers with contempt and arrogance especially if there is no where else, or the staff of those organisations perceive that there is no where else, for those people to go.
True.
but who knows how long he had had mental health problems?
I'm not an expert but would it not be likely that for some MH problems continue past the age of 34 and actions may be triggered by some sort of trauma ie divorce or becoming a grandfather.
That sums it up better than any speculation can imo....
Sorry no idea what your personal gripe about irritating administration has to do with this particular mass murder. You're just guessing about what drove him to it and trying to draw some vague parallels that aren't there. I can't really express how crass putting these two things together is.
You say nothing excuses murder of innocent people, then imply that an inquiry wouldn't suggest that an incompetent government department was an excuse for the man choosing to murder innocent people - presumably because in your mind you've already decided that - as a result of some personal irritation - that it was probably the reason. All this despite nobody having any idea that it had anything to do with a government department. Odd.
I'd imagine that since it's a matter of record that he did have a gun licence for 20 years, that it would be a poor use of the inquiry's time. Interestingly the men responsible for Hungerford and Dunblane were also legal gun owners, so maybe somebody putting a bit of thought into "tightening up gun laws blah blah blah", might not be as stupid an attack on innocent freedoms as you imply.
Uh huh. So an enquiry is a waste of time (based on your guess that it won't find the government guilty of murder), but the victims families might like to have some closure - so I wonder how else they might they get it - I'm guessing they'd be looking for something a bit more concrete than wild internet speculation?
Sorry to pick apart pretty much everything you've said, but it's just not been well thought out or even researched. Lots of people got shot in the face, it's got nothing to do with the government or lefty media the gun control agenda or having a hard time with student loans. A cursory read over the story - even in a tabloid rag - would have confirmed that. What's you posted isn't rationalising anything.
My post was made 5 hours ago and further information has subsequently come to light.
1. My "crass" parallel was based on Mark Austin's report on last night's news suggesting tax problems as a possible reason. Not speculation by me. I mention my own experience simply because it WAS extremely stressful and frustrating.
You try and support your daughter with thousands of pounds of money you don't have and have not budgeted for because you have been led to believe that she will receive that money via a State you have paid UNINTERRUPTED National Insurance contributions and PAYE to support for well over 35 years. This when you also have other family financial responsibilities that you cannot avoid.
If you have not had such an experience then take it from me it is both stressful and frustrating particularly when you cannot contact anybody. Our situation was resolved eventually by our MP and even he admitted to having difficulties.
I simply posed a question knowing how desperate I felt.
2. Enquiries tend to be "whitewashes" the David Kelly affair for example. I cannot think of one off the top of my head where Government departments have admitted wrongdoing. Doubtless you (or ANother) will quote an instance but as I say I cannot think of one.
3. 5 hours ago it was NOT in the public domain that he had a gun licence for 20 years hence my comment.
As I said nothing excuses the murder of innocent people but there must be something that turned a decent man bad.
We are often told that muggers and other violent criminals should not be imprisoned because they themselves are victims in that they are drug addicts or poor so it is not their fault. In other words we seek a reason for the crime.
That is all I tried to do.
For the avoidance of doubt if Mr Bird was still alive I would lock him up for life and hope that life meant life in the same way as I believe muggers should be locked up for a long time. The evil crime of mugging and other violent crime makes decent, innocent, lawabiding people frightened to venture onto the streets especially after dark and in my view that is wrong. The streets should belong to the hardworking not the criminal.
What next 9-11 was bad, but you ought to try getting an appointment at the dentist round here, maybe they were driven to it?
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Big drink up in Cumbria fist 20 shots are free and the last one does your head in.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/jun/04/cumbria-shootings-derrick-bird-feared-jail-tax
Doesn't make what he did right but maybe offers an explanation.
Indeed. You can't legislate for people 'flipping' or letting their frustrations boil over, but you can limit the chance that they'll have access to a weapon that can kill a lot of people in a short space of time
Equally the vast majority of people using weapons responsibly are penalised.
The British shooting and rifle teams cannot even practice their sport in their own country because of our gun laws!
That has to be wrong surely.