The difference between Charlton last season and England is that Charlton had limited players like Mooney giving their all whereas there are some (not all) England players whom are undoubtedly talented but do not perform for the shirt.
If players do not try then I can understand the frustration that leads to booing. If players do try then, in my opinion, booing is unjustified and counter-productive.
[cite aria-level=0 aria-posinset=0 aria-setsize=0]Posted By: mistrollingin[/cite]Spot on Telnotinoz. After the first 20 minutes on Friday it had all become so bloody predictable, so I switched over the the US Open golf and spent an enjoyable couple of hours watching real professional sportsmen all trying their very best for every minute they were on the course.
Golfers aren't exactly paupers you know... And let's take a look at the world's no. 1 and no. 2: Woods and Mickelson. Are they pleasant human beings? In fact you could almost say they were spoilt primma donnas?
Sorry not the be annoyingly sarcastic, but smugness about sports really winds me up.
Don't lump Mickelson in with Cheater Woods. People that work in and around the PGA tour would tell you that Mickelson is one of the friendliest, most generous and down-to-earth guys in all of sports.
[cite]Posted By: mistrollingin[/cite]Spot on Telnotinoz. After the first 20 minutes on Friday it had all become so bloody predictable, so I switched over the the US Open golf and spent an enjoyable couple of hours watching real professional sportsmen all trying their very best for every minute they were on the course.
Golfers aren't exactly paupers you know... And let's take a look at the world's no. 1 and no. 2: Woods and Mickelson. Are they pleasant human beings? In fact you could almost say they were spoilt primma donnas?
Sorry not the be annoyingly sarcastic, but smugness about sports really winds me up.
Don't lump Mickelson in with Cheater Woods. People that work in and around the PGA tour would tell you that Mickelson is one of the friendliest, most generous and down-to-earth guys in all of sports.
When, and in which tournament, has Woods been guilty of cheating?
"Absurdly rewarded and ceaselessly indulged, they expect unswerving loyalty and unthinking approval. Sycophants and courtiers have fed the conviction that they are beyond criticism or rebuke."
[cite]Posted By: ValleyGary[/cite]he's talking about him going round banging all them tarts. As he was married, it makes him a cheater.
I know. Just making the point that in my opinion, if it was proved that he had cheated in a tournament, it would seriously affect my admiration of him as one of the greatest sportsmen of all time. His sexual activities with consenting adults is none of my business. I don't care. And I don't care about or feel I can judge the private lives of any premiership footballers.
[cite]Posted By: ValleyGary[/cite]he's talking about him going round banging all them tarts. As he was married, it makes him a cheater.
I know. Just making the point that in my opinion, if it was proved that he had cheated in a tournament, It would seriously affect my admiration of him as one the greatest sportsmen of all time. His sexual activities with consenting adults is none of my business.
But the original point was that Woods can hardly be called a 'real professional' by going around cheating on his wife with god knows how many women.
[cite]Posted By: ThreadKiller[/cite]"Absurdly rewarded and ceaselessly indulged, they expect unswerving loyalty and unthinking approval. Sycophants and courtiers have fed the conviction that they are beyond criticism or rebuke."
Just back from the Cricket at Beckenham:
Tress & co (Somerset) and (not so super) Kent players were talking to Fans before and after:
Yes, I know the Football World Cup is different but they ALL took critiscism & praise.
No arguments.....just talking.
[cite]Posted By: mistrollingin[/cite]Spot on Telnotinoz. After the first 20 minutes on Friday it had all become so bloody predictable, so I switched over the the US Open golf and spent an enjoyable couple of hours watching real professional sportsmen all trying their very best for every minute they were on the course.
Golfers aren't exactly paupers you know... And let's take a look at the world's no. 1 and no. 2: Woods and Mickelson. Are they pleasant human beings? In fact you could almost say they were spoilt primma donnas?
Sorry not the be annoyingly sarcastic, but smugness about sports really winds me up.
Don't lump Mickelson in with Cheater Woods. People that work in and around the PGA tour would tell you that Mickelson is one of the friendliest, most generous and down-to-earth guys in all of sports.
Fair enough if that's true. I'd sort of vaguely heard bad things about Mickelson, but I'm not really an avid follower of golf
[cite]Posted By: BlackForestReds[/cite]Steve Gerrard does work hard, but is part of the problem - yes he gives 100% but how often does he try for the headline grabbing wonder-goal over far simpler passing moves that keeps the opponents playing defensively and chasing shadows and puts England in to stronger positions.
International football is generally slower than club football (and certainly English/British club football) and the emphasis is on being less physical with less haste and therefore more ball retention and the best sides carve open opportunities with patience. That I think is also why Rommedahl looks brilliant in international football, but couldn't hack playing in the Premiership. I also don't think that the Jubilani ball helps our style of play, when played on the deck it looks a good ball, but it deviates when played in the air and too much of our football is based on medium-to-long range passing and the ball isn't accurate enough in the air for that game.
All good points well made, but my post was about how Steven Gerrard being a awful human being wasn't the reason for England's poor performance so far, and that's not really a view you've defended in your reply.
I took your post to insinuate (possibly incorrectly?) that their private misdemeanours were one of - or pointed to - the main reasons why England have crumbled.
While I disagreed with that initial post, I think most of what you say in this one is spot on. I would say it isn't related to John Terry having affairs, but instead solid and thought out footballing points like the ones you've just made.
On the golfing thing - golf (is it a sport?) is a solitary activity, only rarely do golfers play in teams and then it's in things like the Ryder Cup. If a pro-golfer doesn't work hard he'll starve because there's no-one to take over say the putting or playing out of bunkers. Football is a team activity and the individual, while important, is not worth much if he can't play as part of a team.
And isn't Phil Mickleson known as "Figjam" to his fellow pros?
On Tiger Woods, his image was carefully constructed for him by his handlers who restricted media access to him only to media outlets that presented him as a caring family man, and as we all know that came crashing down rather spectacularly. The bottom line is to be that good you need to have something in your psyche that lifts you apart from others. Golf is one of those sports that while it focuses on the individual allows some talented players who don't have that drive to still make large amounts of money even if they never (or rarely) win tournaments.
The point I'm making about Steve Gerrard/John Terry etc is twofold. Firstly I take no pleasure in seeing them become successful and as much as I want to see England win the World Cup I would rather any other players than they were in the squad. It's not that I hate them but they are flawed, arrogant individuals who perhaps should appreciate what football has given them and this is their opportunity to give something back. Once every two years - at a WC or EC finals I expect them to put their egos to one side and realise that they aren't playing for their club side where the team is built around them and plays to a style that maximises their talents. That means that they need to play in a slightly different style or position. I heard a stat that Rooney didn't touch the the ball in Algeria's penalty box all game, I don't know if that's true (or I misheard) but that is staggering. A player who because he isn't getting the service he's normally used to at Man U rather than go looking for the ball and making a nuisance of himself in the opposition's penalty box starts playing deeper and getting out of position, what use is that to the team? And that's the second point, their off-pitch attitudes seem to match their on-pitch personas, because they aren't getting the service they get at their clubs they switch off and stop playing. I find it hard to separate the player from the man.
on the support front .... englands support during the matches has been brilliant and the team have underperformed ... if the supporters had booed all match could they have done any worse .... i don't think so ..... so cheering or booing i think isn't that big a deal, if you are a great player and cheered you can still be wank or like at charlton if you are a wank player and booed you can still be good !
[cite]Posted By: Red_In_SE[/cite]
Posted By: ValleyGary
he's talking about him going round banging all them tarts. As he was married, it makes him a cheater.
I know. Just making the point that in my opinion, if it was proved that he had cheated in a tournament, it would seriously affect my admiration of him as one of the greatest sportsmen of all time. His sexual activities with consenting adults is none of my business. I don't care. And I don't care about or feel I can judge the private lives of any premiership footballers.
Mickelson's reputation is golden inside the game of golf. A genuine good guy who takes the time to personally thank volunteers at each tournament and is known for his generosity. About the only thing remotely questionable about him is that he likes to gamble.
Contrast that with Woods, whose carefully crafted reputation and his reality could qualify as the definition for the word hypocrite.
You can call Tiger Woods one of the all-time greatest golfers, and respect his tremendous skill, talent and the hard work that has led to his amazing record. But he is in no way one of great "sportsmen," because sportsman implies character, of which he obviously has very little of whenever he isn't striking a small white ball.
I agree with almost all of the article. Yes, one can pick up certain points that are slightly innacurate and possibly one or two hypocritical sentences, but the general gist of the piece is spot on. If you can't see that, you inhabit a very strange world.
Hard to disagree with too much there from an excellent journalist courageous enough to use his column to defend Charlton Athletic Football Club when it wasn't fashionable to do so in the Club's hour of greatest need.
Some people see the word 'Mail' and have a pavlovian reflex to disagree with anything contained within regardless of merit.
when we won 3 v 1 in Budapest in 1981 there was a wellknown (now dead) journo from the Mirror who was totaly pissed out of his head and stayed in th e hotel with two "ladies of the night".A married man. Yet he gave a full account ofthe game when it was published in the Mirror.
It is a fact that while jurno will dig the dirt on anyone and some see it as there god given right to do so they have an unwritten pact never to tell on each other.
Just another classic example of one of those 'Aren't I wonderful at stating the bleeding obvious, especially with the benefit of hindsight, intertwined with a liberal sprinkling of meaningless clap trap and purposeless truisms' articles...
Probably wrote it before the match even started, along with the one stating how marvellous Capello and the England team are had we won...
[cite]Posted By: RedZed333[/cite]Just another classic example of one of those 'Aren't I wonderful at stating the bleeding obvious, especially with the benefit of hindsight, intertwined with a liberal sprinkling of meaningless clap trap and purposeless truisms' articles...
Probably wrote it before the match even started, along with the one stating how marvellous Capello and the England team are had we won...
That's not in the style (as you describe that is) of the Patrick Collins that I know....srtaight as a dye is Patrick.
Can't stand Patrick Collins, always comes across as smug and pompous, he is the last one to lecture.
As for the booing, I doubt I would do it, but can understand why people did and tend to see it more from The Organiser's point of view.
As for Rooney's reaction and Mascot suggesting the booing has caused a wedge between the player(s) and the fans, I think it reflects more on Rooney's attitude to be honest.
If I was in that position and was to say something to the camera's, I'd like to think I'd say something along the lines of "sorry, I know that was an awful performance, we'll get it right" blah blah blah....not the outburst he came out with. Although again, after the performance he put in and how annoyed with himself he must've been I can probably understand why he snapped!
Comments
If players do not try then I can understand the frustration that leads to booing. If players do try then, in my opinion, booing is unjustified and counter-productive.
Don't lump Mickelson in with Cheater Woods. People that work in and around the PGA tour would tell you that Mickelson is one of the friendliest, most generous and down-to-earth guys in all of sports.
When, and in which tournament, has Woods been guilty of cheating?
I know. Just making the point that in my opinion, if it was proved that he had cheated in a tournament, it would seriously affect my admiration of him as one of the greatest sportsmen of all time. His sexual activities with consenting adults is none of my business. I don't care. And I don't care about or feel I can judge the private lives of any premiership footballers.
But the original point was that Woods can hardly be called a 'real professional' by going around cheating on his wife with god knows how many women.
Just back from the Cricket at Beckenham:
Tress & co (Somerset) and (not so super) Kent players were talking to Fans before and after:
Yes, I know the Football World Cup is different but they ALL took critiscism & praise.
No arguments.....just talking.
Thought Mr Collins article was Spot-on.
Fair enough if that's true. I'd sort of vaguely heard bad things about Mickelson, but I'm not really an avid follower of golf
All good points well made, but my post was about how Steven Gerrard being a awful human being wasn't the reason for England's poor performance so far, and that's not really a view you've defended in your reply.
I took your post to insinuate (possibly incorrectly?) that their private misdemeanours were one of - or pointed to - the main reasons why England have crumbled.
While I disagreed with that initial post, I think most of what you say in this one is spot on. I would say it isn't related to John Terry having affairs, but instead solid and thought out footballing points like the ones you've just made.
And isn't Phil Mickleson known as "Figjam" to his fellow pros?
On Tiger Woods, his image was carefully constructed for him by his handlers who restricted media access to him only to media outlets that presented him as a caring family man, and as we all know that came crashing down rather spectacularly. The bottom line is to be that good you need to have something in your psyche that lifts you apart from others. Golf is one of those sports that while it focuses on the individual allows some talented players who don't have that drive to still make large amounts of money even if they never (or rarely) win tournaments.
Mickelson's reputation is golden inside the game of golf. A genuine good guy who takes the time to personally thank volunteers at each tournament and is known for his generosity. About the only thing remotely questionable about him is that he likes to gamble.
Contrast that with Woods, whose carefully crafted reputation and his reality could qualify as the definition for the word hypocrite.
You can call Tiger Woods one of the all-time greatest golfers, and respect his tremendous skill, talent and the hard work that has led to his amazing record. But he is in no way one of great "sportsmen," because sportsman implies character, of which he obviously has very little of whenever he isn't striking a small white ball.
Still hate the Mail though...
Some people see the word 'Mail' and have a pavlovian reflex to disagree with anything contained within regardless of merit.
(Hypocrite.. me?)
It is a fact that while jurno will dig the dirt on anyone and some see it as there god given right to do so they have an unwritten pact never to tell on each other.
true though isnt it?
Probably wrote it before the match even started, along with the one stating how marvellous Capello and the England team are had we won...
:-)
That's not in the style (as you describe that is) of the Patrick Collins that I know....srtaight as a dye is Patrick.
As for the booing, I doubt I would do it, but can understand why people did and tend to see it more from The Organiser's point of view.
As for Rooney's reaction and Mascot suggesting the booing has caused a wedge between the player(s) and the fans, I think it reflects more on Rooney's attitude to be honest.
If I was in that position and was to say something to the camera's, I'd like to think I'd say something along the lines of "sorry, I know that was an awful performance, we'll get it right" blah blah blah....not the outburst he came out with. Although again, after the performance he put in and how annoyed with himself he must've been I can probably understand why he snapped!
A journo, straight as a dye. Yeah..... right.....
Sports journo...bit of a difference me thinks.
Patrick's an OK fella, as I'm sure many on here will tell you.
(Super) Kent CCC & Charlton Athletic FC supporter:
Whats Not to like ?