Can we all just agree he was an odd troubled soul, that at worst was a prolific peadophile and at best was an abuser, by inappropriate behaviour towards young and vulnerable boys. Both are very wrong.
#WadeRobinsonIsALiar is probably one of the cuntiest things seen. What’s wrong with people?
If the person saying that is right, he actually is a liar. Depends on who you believe. The documentary didn't seem to question that, took it at face value. Though I am simply playing devil's advocate here, I do believe him and do believe the accusations about Jackson.
The documentary was very one sided and yes I agree that children should not have been sleeping in the same bed, but the we all know MJ was a bit strange and may have felt like he was befriending them and maybe the child asked and he felt like he could not say no. But he liked the company and enjoyed acting like a child. Just throwing it out there...
You’re just throwing it out there that’s he’s ‘A bit strange’ and then trying to pass the responsibility onto young children. Jesus Christ.
Far from that, I'm trying to say that he mentally wasn't right and agreed for them to stay. Which is not a right thing to do but I'm just saying there was no proof that he did do anything. You're allowed your opinion and so am I.
If he was so distraught why did he try to arrange a MJ Tribute show and say that he was one of his idols when he passed?
The documentary was one sided and the verdict is still out. Neither am I defending a child abuser, so to Stu, don't throw assumptions like that just because some one does not agree with your opinion. Cheers pal!
#WadeRobinsonIsALiar is probably one of the cuntiest things seen. What’s wrong with people?
If the person saying that is right, he actually is a liar. Depends on who you believe. The documentary didn't seem to question that, took it at face value. Though I am simply playing devil's advocate here, I do believe him and do believe the accusations about Jackson.
The documentary was very one sided and yes I agree that children should not have been sleeping in the same bed, but the we all know MJ was a bit strange and may have felt like he was befriending them and maybe the child asked and he felt like he could not say no. But he liked the company and enjoyed acting like a child. Just throwing it out there...
Jackson was a manipulative child abuser of boys of a certain age, if he loved all kids in a non sexual or non abusive way as his blinkered fans say, then why didn't he have girls stay in his bed? Maybe its because he was a nonce and little boys were his sexual perversion..........just throwing it out there.
Worrying amount of paedophile sympathisers out there
This. The fact that people are even trying to defend him is scary .
People will always believe what they want to believe or require different standards of proof to others, it is the way the world is. There is never going to be more than verbal evidence from the survivors of abuse after such a long time and in cases like this people will try and make it look like they are trying to gain from telling lies. I think he was a peadophile and lots of people that I respect as intelligent, thoughtful and far from judgmental people that I respect like Louis Theroux believe he is as well.
#WadeRobinsonIsALiar is probably one of the cuntiest things seen. What’s wrong with people?
If the person saying that is right, he actually is a liar. Depends on who you believe. The documentary didn't seem to question that, took it at face value. Though I am simply playing devil's advocate here, I do believe him and do believe the accusations about Jackson.
The documentary was very one sided and yes I agree that children should not have been sleeping in the same bed, but the we all know MJ was a bit strange and may have felt like he was befriending them and maybe the child asked and he felt like he could not say no. But he liked the company and enjoyed acting like a child. Just throwing it out there...
Just throwing what out there?
That mentally he was not strong enough to say no to a child staying. I probably worded it wrong and it seemed like he couldn't say no to abusing, but I was just mentioning saying no to them staying in his room.
He was a very vulnerable person and could barely trust anyone, so he could have read things wrong and he could have possibly done some of the stuff mentioned and if he did, then that is wrong.
If they released another documentary with as much press but with a different POV, everyone could be saying stuff differently once again.
#WadeRobinsonIsALiar is probably one of the cuntiest things seen. What’s wrong with people?
If the person saying that is right, he actually is a liar. Depends on who you believe. The documentary didn't seem to question that, took it at face value. Though I am simply playing devil's advocate here, I do believe him and do believe the accusations about Jackson.
The documentary was very one sided and yes I agree that children should not have been sleeping in the same bed, but the we all know MJ was a bit strange and may have felt like he was befriending them and maybe the child asked and he felt like he could not say no. But he liked the company and enjoyed acting like a child. Just throwing it out there...
Just throwing what out there?
That mentally he was not strong enough to say no to a child staying. I probably worded it wrong and it seemed like he couldn't say no to abusing, but I was just mentioning saying no to them staying in his room.
He was a very vulnerable person and could barely trust anyone, so he could have read things wrong and he could have possibly done some of the stuff mentioned and if he did, then that is wrong.
If they released another documentary with as much press but with a different POV, everyone could be saying stuff differently once again.
So what about it being his decisions to have the boys stay and keep them separate, to himself, away from their family?
what about the secluded rooms with cameras?
what about the porn in the same room as these children?
Was that all their choice? Of course it wasn’t. This was calculated grooming from an adult.
You seem to be leaning towards Jackson being some sort of innocent troubled victim of his own self, which is really scary.
#WadeRobinsonIsALiar is probably one of the cuntiest things seen. What’s wrong with people?
If the person saying that is right, he actually is a liar. Depends on who you believe. The documentary didn't seem to question that, took it at face value. Though I am simply playing devil's advocate here, I do believe him and do believe the accusations about Jackson.
The documentary was very one sided and yes I agree that children should not have been sleeping in the same bed, but the we all know MJ was a bit strange and may have felt like he was befriending them and maybe the child asked and he felt like he could not say no. But he liked the company and enjoyed acting like a child. Just throwing it out there...
You’re just throwing it out there that’s he’s ‘A bit strange’ and then trying to pass the responsibility onto young children. Jesus Christ.
Far from that, I'm trying to say that he mentally wasn't right and agreed for them to stay. Which is not a right thing to do but I'm just saying there was no proof that he did do anything. You're allowed your opinion and so am I.
If he was so distraught why did he try to arrange a MJ Tribute show and say that he was one of his idols when he passed?
The documentary was one sided and the verdict is still out. Neither am I defending a child abuser, so to Stu, don't throw assumptions like that just because some one does not agree with your opinion. Cheers pal!
There was no proof that Saville was a nonce either, if you mean filmed evidence, but enough people have come forward and we now agree Saville was an abuser. There are 5 or 6 people who have said Jackson abused them, one was paid millions to shut up, this persons father has since topped himself, the two fellas making the new claims were shit scared to testify against him when they are kids, its only now as adults that following the trauma of what Jackson did to them do they found the strength to be able to speak out, without worrying about the fear of repercussions from the Jackson family or fans. The physical abuse can heal (relatively) quickly BUT the mental abuse lasts a lifetime. Jacksons family will of course deny he did anything to these kids, the Jackson legacy will be ruined. And they have closed ranks.
Saville and Jackson we're both very very powerful people, in different ways, and when Joe Public worships people like them it is near impossible to get convictions, for many many reasons.
They both follow the same demographic of a serial abuser of children/people.
Worrying amount of paedophile sympathisers out there
This. The fact that people are even trying to defend him is scary .
People will always believe what they want to believe or require different standards of proof to others, it is the way the world is. There is never going to be more than verbal evidence from the survivors of abuse after such a long time and in cases like this people will try and make it look like they are trying to gain from telling lies. I think he was a peadophile and lots of people that I respect as intelligent, thoughtful and far from judgmental people that I respect like Louis Theroux believe he is as well.
It is hard to come to the conclusion of him being innocent. Of course he claimed he was innocent from day one of being accused with a believable passion, but he settled the big case for millions of dollars. That is not what an innocent man does in my judgement which made me think he was probably guilty back then.
But he did portray a persona that if genuine could explain his behaviour. But again, the point is, 'Wacko Jacko', could also have been a perfect cover to hide behind. And if you were going to design a cover, you probably wouldn't find a better one than one MJ used, which makes guilt even more likely. He could have been a recluse for instance with no interest in children. Whilst different in many ways, Savile's erratic behaviour/persona clearly assisted him in his crimes, many of which he did in full sight.
Which is why I thought he was probably guilty and not definitely guilty. Mind you my probably is much more than 55/45 or even 60/40. One lesson for the future is strange behaviour can be more sinister. Hopefully people won't accept things so easily because the person seems a bit eccentric or strange.
He was an idolised, mega wealthy, world superstar who used those three extremely powerful things to create a world for himself that was designed to enable him to manipulate young boys to his advantage. He used his wealth and stardom to wow the parents of these children into feeling safe for their child. When the time was right he sidelined the parents and closed his trap.
His lair in Neverland was tantamount to a lure to young children. The secret room and trip alarms are all verified fact. The pornography in rooms where his boys would frequent is a verified fact. The fingerprints of boys alongside his own on those magazines is a verified fact. He slept with these boys and spent sometimes days alone with them. He settled “claims” out of court for a lot of money. Hush money. His own sister accused him of child abuse. There have been numerous accusations by credible witnesses. His father sexually abused his sister. Was Jackson an abused turned abuser ? The weight of evidence is overwhelming. Without having actual footage of his sick abuse I’m not sure what else people want before they accept he was an evil abuser.
He was an idolised, mega wealthy, world superstar who used those three extremely powerful things to create a world for himself that was designed to enable him to manipulate young boys to his advantage. He used his wealth and stardom to wow the parents of these children into feeling safe for their child. When the time was right he sidelined the parents and closed his trap.
His lair in Neverland was tantamount to a lure to young children. The secret room and trip alarms are all verified fact. The pornography in rooms where his boys would frequent is a verified fact. The fingerprints of boys alongside his own on those magazines is a verified fact. He slept with these boys and spent sometimes days alone with them. He settled “claims” out of court for a lot of money. Hush money. His own sister accused him of child abuse. There have been numerous accusations by credible witnesses. His father sexually abused his sister. Was Jackson an abused turned abuser ? The weight of evidence is overwhelming. Without having actual footage of his sick abuse I’m not sure what else people want before they accept he was an evil abuser.
Great post. Have you ever considered becoming a prosecution lawyer.
Worrying amount of paedophile sympathisers out there
This. The fact that people are even trying to defend him is scary .
People will always believe what they want to believe or require different standards of proof to others, it is the way the world is. There is never going to be more than verbal evidence from the survivors of abuse after such a long time and in cases like this people will try and make it look like they are trying to gain from telling lies. I think he was a peadophile and lots of people that I respect as intelligent, thoughtful and far from judgmental people that I respect like Louis Theroux believe he is as well.
Although Theroux got as close as anyone to Saville and didn't manage to find any evidence or come out with anything concrete. He clearly had heard rumours of Saville's appalling abuse which is why he made the TV programme but at no time before during or after it were people within the BBC prepared to listen to those that had made those claims.
Sadly the opportunity for both men to go on trial was missed and they have got away without being punished whilst those that they abused are still, in most cases, still suffering from the trauma of it all.
Even more sad is that as a result of the actions of these paedophiles any man who hugs a child in public who isn't his own is ripe for fingers being pointed at him. Equally, because of these abusers, we as a society have to have certain levels of protection in place that have to protect not just the child but also those that come into contact with children be it school, sports clubs, scouts or whatever that we would never have dreamed to need decades ago.
Not all those that are accused are guilty even if the likes of Saville and Jackson are and many of those that have been falsely accused have had their own lives ruined as a result.
One of my oldest friends, who I've known since school, idolised Jackson and he won't accept these claims. I don't think that makes my friend a paedophile sympathiser, he finds it impossible to believe that his idol could be a wrong 'un.
Worrying amount of paedophile sympathisers out there
This. The fact that people are even trying to defend him is scary .
People will always believe what they want to believe or require different standards of proof to others, it is the way the world is. There is never going to be more than verbal evidence from the survivors of abuse after such a long time and in cases like this people will try and make it look like they are trying to gain from telling lies. I think he was a peadophile and lots of people that I respect as intelligent, thoughtful and far from judgmental people that I respect like Louis Theroux believe he is as well.
Although Theroux got as close as anyone to Saville and didn't manage to find any evidence or come out with anything concrete. He clearly had heard rumours of Saville's appalling abuse which is why he made the TV programme but at no time before during or after it were people within the BBC prepared to listen to those that had made those claims.
Sadly the opportunity for both men to go on trial was missed and they have got away without being punished whilst those that they abused are still, in most cases, still suffering from the trauma of it all.
Even more sad is that as a result of the actions of these paedophiles any man who hugs a child in public who isn't his own is ripe for fingers being pointed at him. Equally, because of these abusers, we as a society have to have certain levels of protection in place that have to protect not just the child but also those that come into contact with children be it school, sports clubs, scouts or whatever that we would never have dreamed to need decades ago.
Not all those that are accused are guilty even if the likes of Saville and Jackson are and many of those that have been falsely accused have had their own lives ruined as a result.
The point you make about any man who hugs a child in public is a really pertinent one. Very close to where I live at the top of Shooters Hill there is a children’s playground near where I regularly walk the dog. It’s often full of kids from toddlers with mums through to young teens. As the father of two girls both now very grown up and grandfather to a four year old it would be lovely to be able to sit on one of the benches and watch the children play. What more simple pleasure than that. I would love to be able to feel I could do that but I don’t. What a sad indictment of society.
Jackson DID go on trial, more than once o think. Of course whether those trials were (or could be) truly fair and unbiased given his wealth and influence is highly questionable. But in the court of law he was found innocent...
One of my oldest friends, who I've known since school, idolised Jackson and he won't accept these claims. I don't think that makes my friend a paedophile sympathiser, he finds it impossible to believe that his idol could be a wrong 'un.
I wouldn't talk to that "friend" ever again if it were me, Sago
Jackson DID go on trial, more than once o think. Of course whether those trials were (or could be) truly fair and unbiased given his wealth and influence is highly questionable. But in the court of law he was found innocent...
I have absolutely zero faith in the US justice system where fame and money is involved. Look at OJ Simpson....
Worrying amount of paedophile sympathisers out there
This. The fact that people are even trying to defend him is scary .
People will always believe what they want to believe or require different standards of proof to others, it is the way the world is. There is never going to be more than verbal evidence from the survivors of abuse after such a long time and in cases like this people will try and make it look like they are trying to gain from telling lies. I think he was a peadophile and lots of people that I respect as intelligent, thoughtful and far from judgmental people that I respect like Louis Theroux believe he is as well.
Although Theroux got as close as anyone to Saville and didn't manage to find any evidence or come out with anything concrete. He clearly had heard rumours of Saville's appalling abuse which is why he made the TV programme but at no time before during or after it were people within the BBC prepared to listen to those that had made those claims.
Sadly the opportunity for both men to go on trial was missed and they have got away without being punished whilst those that they abused are still, in most cases, still suffering from the trauma of it all.
Even more sad is that as a result of the actions of these paedophiles any man who hugs a child in public who isn't his own is ripe for fingers being pointed at him. Equally, because of these abusers, we as a society have to have certain levels of protection in place that have to protect not just the child but also those that come into contact with children be it school, sports clubs, scouts or whatever that we would never have dreamed to need decades ago.
Not all those that are accused are guilty even if the likes of Saville and Jackson are and many of those that have been falsely accused have had their own lives ruined as a result.
The point you make about any man who hugs a child in public is a really pertinent one. Very close to where I live at the top of Shooters Hill there is a children’s playground near where I regularly walk the dog. It’s often full of kids from toddlers with mums through to young teens. As the father of two girls both now very grown up and grandfather to a four year old it would be lovely to be able to sit on one of the benches and watch the children play. What more simple pleasure than that. I would love to be able to feel I could do that but I don’t. What a sad indictment of society.
That injunction can't help much either eh Shootie?
Worrying amount of paedophile sympathisers out there
This. The fact that people are even trying to defend him is scary .
People will always believe what they want to believe or require different standards of proof to others, it is the way the world is. There is never going to be more than verbal evidence from the survivors of abuse after such a long time and in cases like this people will try and make it look like they are trying to gain from telling lies. I think he was a peadophile and lots of people that I respect as intelligent, thoughtful and far from judgmental people that I respect like Louis Theroux believe he is as well.
Although Theroux got as close as anyone to Saville and didn't manage to find any evidence or come out with anything concrete. He clearly had heard rumours of Saville's appalling abuse which is why he made the TV programme but at no time before during or after it were people within the BBC prepared to listen to those that had made those claims.
Sadly the opportunity for both men to go on trial was missed and they have got away without being punished whilst those that they abused are still, in most cases, still suffering from the trauma of it all.
Even more sad is that as a result of the actions of these paedophiles any man who hugs a child in public who isn't his own is ripe for fingers being pointed at him. Equally, because of these abusers, we as a society have to have certain levels of protection in place that have to protect not just the child but also those that come into contact with children be it school, sports clubs, scouts or whatever that we would never have dreamed to need decades ago.
Not all those that are accused are guilty even if the likes of Saville and Jackson are and many of those that have been falsely accused have had their own lives ruined as a result.
The point you make about any man who hugs a child in public is a really pertinent one. Very close to where I live at the top of Shooters Hill there is a children’s playground near where I regularly walk the dog. It’s often full of kids from toddlers with mums through to young teens. As the father of two girls both now very grown up and grandfather to a four year old it would be lovely to be able to sit on one of the benches and watch the children play. What more simple pleasure than that. I would love to be able to feel I could do that but I don’t. What a sad indictment of society.
More a reflection of a very few members of society. But they are there and because decent people realise it isn't appropriate to do, even if it is for innocent reasons and sad that they can't, these scum are more likely to stand out.
One of my oldest friends, who I've known since school, idolised Jackson and he won't accept these claims. I don't think that makes my friend a paedophile sympathiser, he finds it impossible to believe that his idol could be a wrong 'un.
I think there is an element of that with die hard fans.
There is also (I think) another group of people who are not overly influenced by his music, who no doubt saw a very weird and damaged individual but just simply struggle to see any ‘ potential ‘sexual’ angle with him. Which then puts a small element of doubt in their mind of the evil predator claims. Maybe their nativity is being influenced by what they see as his nativity?
Thats my take on it. I don’t know enough personally to form a strong judgement either way, But until reading this thread today I’ve never heard those porn links claims. I’ve not read that article so no idea if that was speculation, one man’s claims or an undeniable fact recorded by authorities. I wonder just how many others have never heard or read that?
I have to admit I have seen more evidence and my opinion has pushed towards him being guilty. But a lot of stuff can be disputed and those in the documentary for me are just not credible enough. That may sound harsh but for me a lot of it just didn't add up. A possible explanation is that they were trying too hard to prove MJ's guilt.
It's a miscarriage of justice either way. Like Saville he will never have to face everybody knowing the truth, or his memory is being tarnished.
I think this has been, so far, an absolutely brilliant Charlton Life thread.
I haven't waded in to any great extent for a simple reason. I know what I think about Michael Jackson and I know there are some (a surprisingly large number) who believe the opposite. But it's not an "argument" or "debate" that needs to be "won". If you believe he was an egregious and dangerous serial paedophile and child groomer, there's enough evidence to support that view. But if you think he was a flawed and troubled genius, who acted as a latter-day Peter Pan for the love of the company of young boys, but had no nefarious intent, then there are also plenty of incidents, claims and legal cases that would appear to confirm your view. So no-one is going to win the discussion. And, in fact, there are very few people who are likely to alter their belief.
This isn't like Brexit or Roland or Labour v Conservative or Scottish Independence. Because they are all on-going and to a great extent they matter. Jackson's dead. So he will never have the opportunity to offend again. In that regard, it doesn't matter what anyone thinks. Whether he did it or not, he can't do it again.
I've been really impressed by the content on this thread. I know some areas of CL have got overheated recently. But this has been a really good, non-football thread. Charlton Life at (close to) its best.
Comments
The fact that people are even trying to defend him is scary .
If he was so distraught why did he try to arrange a MJ Tribute show and say that he was one of his idols when he passed?
The documentary was one sided and the verdict is still out. Neither am I defending a child abuser, so to Stu, don't throw assumptions like that just because some one does not agree with your opinion. Cheers pal!
I think he was a peadophile and lots of people that I respect as intelligent, thoughtful and far from judgmental people that I respect like Louis Theroux believe he is as well.
He was a very vulnerable person and could barely trust anyone, so he could have read things wrong and he could have possibly done some of the stuff mentioned and if he did, then that is wrong.
If they released another documentary with as much press but with a different POV, everyone could be saying stuff differently once again.
what about the secluded rooms with cameras?
what about the porn in the same room as these children?
Was that all their choice? Of course it wasn’t. This was calculated grooming from an adult.
You seem to be leaning towards Jackson being some sort of innocent troubled victim of his own self, which is really scary.
Jacksons family will of course deny he did anything to these kids, the Jackson legacy will be ruined. And they have closed ranks.
It is hard to come to the conclusion of him being innocent. Of course he claimed he was innocent from day one of being accused with a believable passion, but he settled the big case for millions of dollars. That is not what an innocent man does in my judgement which made me think he was probably guilty back then.
But he did portray a persona that if genuine could explain his behaviour. But again, the point is, 'Wacko Jacko', could also have been a perfect cover to hide behind. And if you were going to design a cover, you probably wouldn't find a better one than one MJ used, which makes guilt even more likely. He could have been a recluse for instance with no interest in children. Whilst different in many ways, Savile's erratic behaviour/persona clearly assisted him in his crimes, many of which he did in full sight.
Rich, powerful people paying off stuff when they are innocent is hardly a new concept.
His lair in Neverland was tantamount to a lure to young children. The secret room and trip alarms are all verified fact. The pornography in rooms where his boys would frequent is a verified fact. The fingerprints of boys alongside his own on those magazines is a verified fact. He slept with these boys and spent sometimes days alone with them. He settled “claims” out of court for a lot of money. Hush money. His own sister accused him of child abuse. There have been numerous accusations by credible witnesses. His father sexually abused his sister. Was Jackson an abused turned abuser ? The weight of evidence is overwhelming. Without having actual footage of his sick abuse I’m not sure what else people want before they accept he was an evil abuser.
Have you ever considered becoming a prosecution lawyer.
Although Theroux got as close as anyone to Saville and didn't manage to find any evidence or come out with anything concrete. He clearly had heard rumours of Saville's appalling abuse which is why he made the TV programme but at no time before during or after it were people within the BBC prepared to listen to those that had made those claims.
Sadly the opportunity for both men to go on trial was missed and they have got away without being punished whilst those that they abused are still, in most cases, still suffering from the trauma of it all.
Even more sad is that as a result of the actions of these paedophiles any man who hugs a child in public who isn't his own is ripe for fingers being pointed at him. Equally, because of these abusers, we as a society have to have certain levels of protection in place that have to protect not just the child but also those that come into contact with children be it school, sports clubs, scouts or whatever that we would never have dreamed to need decades ago.
Not all those that are accused are guilty even if the likes of Saville and Jackson are and many of those that have been falsely accused have had their own lives ruined as a result.
; )
I dont think they are the most reliable and Jackson has been found innocent plenty of times but I’m not defending him.
There is also (I think) another group of people who are not overly influenced by his music, who no doubt saw a very weird and damaged individual but just simply struggle to see any ‘
potential ‘sexual’ angle with him. Which then puts a small element of doubt in their mind of the evil predator claims. Maybe their nativity is being influenced by what they see as his nativity?
Thats my take on it. I don’t know enough personally to form a strong judgement either way, But until reading this thread today I’ve never heard those porn links claims. I’ve not read that article so no idea if that was speculation, one man’s claims or an undeniable fact recorded by authorities. I wonder just how many others have never heard or read that?
It's a miscarriage of justice either way. Like Saville he will never have to face everybody knowing the truth, or his memory is being tarnished.
What worries me is how blind people seem to be that there is any chance that this man may have been a paedophile.
I haven't waded in to any great extent for a simple reason. I know what I think about Michael Jackson and I know there are some (a surprisingly large number) who believe the opposite. But it's not an "argument" or "debate" that needs to be "won". If you believe he was an egregious and dangerous serial paedophile and child groomer, there's enough evidence to support that view. But if you think he was a flawed and troubled genius, who acted as a latter-day Peter Pan for the love of the company of young boys, but had no nefarious intent, then there are also plenty of incidents, claims and legal cases that would appear to confirm your view. So no-one is going to win the discussion. And, in fact, there are very few people who are likely to alter their belief.
This isn't like Brexit or Roland or Labour v Conservative or Scottish Independence. Because they are all on-going and to a great extent they matter. Jackson's dead. So he will never have the opportunity to offend again. In that regard, it doesn't matter what anyone thinks. Whether he did it or not, he can't do it again.
I've been really impressed by the content on this thread. I know some areas of CL have got overheated recently. But this has been a really good, non-football thread. Charlton Life at (close to) its best.