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HMRC

People will be receiving their brown HMRC envelopes today stating whether they owe the tax man more money after the tax code c*ck up - would be interested to hear what people plan to do - pay up or as the newspapers are suggesting fight the tax man.

Makes me sick to think that hard working people are being stung yet again while benefits cheats get thousands of pounds a month.
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Comments

  • What I don't understand is if you owe under £2k you can pay it off monthly during 2011/2012 but if you owe more you have to pay it back in one lump sum.

    Disappointing that a mistake like this can happen. Could really affect some people.
  • If anyone does get an unfair letter - i'd look up "EP6618 - Underpayments/Overpayments: ESC A19: Reasonable Belief" this could come in very handy!
  • Playing devils advocate here, but if you get a letter saying you owe, this means that you have not paid the right amount of tax up to k=now and if you don't pay you are therefore a benefit cheat yourself.

    It's not like they are asking you to pay more just because they feel like it, whatever the reason behind the original underpayment.
  • edited September 2010
    [cite]Posted By: Harveys Trainer[/cite]Playing devils advocate here, but if you get a letter saying you owe, this means that you have not paid the right amount of tax up to k=now and if you don't pay you are therefore a benefit cheat yourself.

    It's not like they are asking you to pay more just because they feel like it, whatever the reason behind the original underpayment.

    Benefit cheating is a considered, calculated action. People on PAYE have little or no say in what is deducted from their wages usually and thus are acting in good faith. They have the right to think that the correct deductions have been made.

    HMRC want to have their cake and eat it. YOU make a mistake on your tax return, even genuinely, and potentially you are open to being charged interest plus an additional penalty of up to 100% of the underdeclared tax.

    THEY make a mistake nothing happens to them, you are offered no compensation and the big stick is waved to make you pay up.

    I'm all for people paying what they should in tax, NI etc but the double standards are frankly sickening in a supposedly free society.
  • One thing that gets me in all this is the Revenue are saying "we can't afford to let this go" - hold on a minute, a couple of days ago they didn't know they'd made a mistake, so how come all of a sudden they need that money?
  • If i undercharged someone for work i'd done i couldn't go back to them 10 months later asking for a bit more.
  • [cite]Posted By: Harveys Trainer[/cite]Playing devils advocate here, but if you get a letter saying you owe, this means that you have not paid the right amount of tax up to k=now and if you don't pay you are therefore a benefit cheat yourself.

    It's not like they are asking you to pay more just because they feel like it, whatever the reason behind the original underpayment.

    but if they have issued with the wrong coding notice and you have underpaid because of it then it is hardly your fault. As with most people your employers get a tax code notice for you too and pay your tax accordingly. People who have underpaid should be allowed to repay it through their tax code over the next ten years so as not to cause anyone unnecessary hardship. If the taxman doesn't like it then they shouldn't cock it up in the first place.
  • edited September 2010
    [cite]Posted By: Saga Lout[/cite]One thing that gets me in all this is the Revenue are saying "we can't afford to let this go" - hold on a minute, a couple of days ago they didn't know they'd made a mistake, so how come all of a sudden they need that money?

    My guess, and I stress guess, is that a lot of this is down to coding errors.

    For example if you have a "benefit in kind" ( a company car or private health insurance being two common ones) your tax code should be lower than the normal personal allowance code. There is a form called a P11D on which benefits in kind are disclosed by employers. I suspect HMRC have done a "matching" exercise and come up with these errors. My reason for surmising this is that I was sent the wrong tax code and I know of other examples too.
  • [cite]Posted By: uncle[/cite]If i undercharged someone for work i'd done i couldn't go back to them 10 months later asking for a bit more.


    Really? Hows you come to that conclusion?

    Just like if you overpaid someone, you have 6 years to get it back.

    Legally, the tax man is fine here but with the current financial situation and the hardships already faced by many families, is this really the right option for HMRC to be taking, surely a long series of instalments would be much easier on the pockets of those affected.
  • It's unconscionable for the revenue to do this. Harvey's earlier argument holds no water - the reason paye exists is to stop people having to do their own taxes. It's different if you have to do your own and make a mistake - that's what accountants are there for. For the revenue service to put a system in place that is designed to do it all for you, for their benefit (lets not forget that), then cry foul when they fuck up, is outrageous. They should spent their time chasing the billions in unpaid corporate tax rather than chasing people over their own rickets.
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  • Why is unconsionable. Two people in exactly the same position. For instance having a company car and should be taxed on it. One person has paid and one hasn't. Why should the one that has be worse off. Also the person who hasn't, has been sent his tax code.
    He should pay although I think he should be given time to pay and it be spread over a period of time.
  • confused in enfield

    unconsionable???????
  • With the example of the company car - if you have one you know you do and you know that you should pay tax on the benefit. If HMRC fail to include it in your coding notice they are at fault, but so are you as most people know that they should be taxed on it and I would suggest that when they see HMRC have not included it they hope that they will get away with it.
  • [cite]Posted By: redman[/cite]Also the person who hasn't, has been sent his tax code.

    isn't this the problem though, that he has been sent the wrong tax code by the tax man so not his fault.
  • I know I was playing devils advocate but people didn't even actually read what I said.

    Lenn: I did not imply that you were a benefit cheat if you had underpaid thus far. I stated that if you received a letter notifying you of your under payment and then did not pay, you became a benefit cheat because, exactly as you stated, you have made a calculated decision, in full knowledge of the facts. To not pay.

    Also Large, I did not imply it was the individual's fault. I clearly stated "whatever the reason behind the original underpayment" accepting that in this case it is the HMRC's fault.

    Lets not forget that if you over pay then HMRC do refund you so Uncles argument is not relevant.
    And the other thing to remember is that tax on earnings is one of the fairer tax systems - I agree with Redman that you should be expected to pay back, as I said before it's an underpayment so you are only having to pay what you should have paid in the first place.
  • [cite]Posted By: nth london addick[/cite]confused in enfield

    unconsionable???????

    Could be wrong and I'm not quite sad enough to look it up but I always read it to mean a unreasonable decision taken without really caring if it's fair or not.

    Personally, the timing of all this stinks. It's like someone somewhere has been sitting on this info for ages but has only decided to do this now just before the spending review is annouced i.e. "look at HMRC, aren't we good we've raised an extra £x billion in revenue, you can't afford to cut us back!".

    In answer to the issue over whether it's cheating or not, the arguement that people are aware of what they should be paying and are therefore cheating if they didn't raise it before now would carry a lot more weight if you could understand your flipping P60 in the first place. I'm on PAYE but every year I seem to get a different outcome to my colleagues and no two people seem to get the same code around here, so hwo are you supposed to know you've been underpaying?
  • edited September 2010
    Well, you could look at it positively and think that at least it goes someway towards reducing the country's debt.
  • [cite]Posted By: Harveys Trainer[/cite]this means that you have not paid the right amount of tax up to k=now and if you don't pay you are therefore a benefit cheat yourself.

    Surely with PAYE, it is only your own resposibility to pay the tax demanded,
    [cite]Posted By: lancashire lad[/cite]If HMRC fail to include it in your coding notice they are at fault, but so are you as most people know that they should be taxed on it

    But ......as Large says:
    [cite]Posted By: LargeAddick[/cite]isn't this the problem though, that he has been sent the wrong tax code by the tax man so not his fault.

    1) How many people actually understand their tax code?

    2) How many people would actually know if their tax code is wrong?


    And as Len says:
    [cite]Posted By: LenGlover[/cite]People on PAYE have little or no say in what is deducted from their wages usually and thus are acting in good faith. They have the right to think that the correct deductions have been made.


    And then Harveys says:
    [cite]Posted By: Harveys Trainer[/cite]I stated that if you received a letter notifying you of your under payment and then did not pay, you became a benefit cheat because, exactly as you stated, you have made a calculated decision, in full knowledge of the facts. To not pay.

    Which is total rubbish. Because you will not be able to make a calculated decision not to pay ....any differential will either be taken direct by PAYE.

    Or by demand that you pay by lump sum or instalment. And if you don't pay within their specified time limits, it will be deducted by PAYE anyway, or you'll be summonsed to court.

    The one thing you cannot be is a benefit cheat.
  • Here's what you do:

    Don't Pay!
  • impressive quoting Oggy - you should get a tax rebate for that!
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  • This is going to make you all livid.
  • [cite]Posted By: aliwibble[/cite]Thisis going to make you all livid.

    Agree.

    I doubt whether any senior official will be disciplined or fired over the PAYE episode but HMRC continue to let large corporations off of their tax liabilities. PAYE deducted staff (and companies) are easy prey for HMRC. If the Revenue, with all its (tax paid for) resources can't get it right, then how are individual taxpayers expected to?

    I run a small business and the cost of servicing the Revenue's requirements is a real drain on my resources (not the tax itself, but dealing with HMRC and its incomptence).

    As taxpayers we should be demanding more accountability from HMRC and the ministers responsible. Every letter that they send out for a demand or rebate costs taxpayers money. Who pays for their mistakes? Us, the taxpayer. It's a one way bet for these people. I work with people from across government and HMRC is in a league of its own for contempt for the taxpayer.
  • [cite]Posted By: lancashire lad[/cite]impressive quoting Oggy - you should get a tax rebate for that!

    Haha ........That would come in handy!
  • If anyone was left in any doubt that our taxation system is deliberately complicated (just like our benefit system), just consider how 5.6m people can owe and be owed money without anyone really notching before now.
  • [cite]Posted By: Cardinal Sin[/cite]If anyone was left in any doubt that our taxation system is deliberately complicated (just like our benefit system), just consider how 5.6m people can owe and be owed money without anyone really notching before now.

    Exactly, and how mant people actually realised that they were over/underpaying tax ? and more importantly, when they receive these letters, that the calculations are now right ?
  • [cite]Posted By: Cardinal Sin[/cite]If anyone was left in any doubt that our taxation system is deliberately complicated (just like our benefit system), just consider how 5.6m people can owe and be owed money without anyone really notching before now.

    Spot on, which just goes to show the nonsense that is this argument that it's in any way our fault.
  • Pretty sure my tax code is wrong (570L instead of the standard 810l) - just spent 29 mins on hold (0845 number )with Her Majesty's finest befor giving up. Does anyone have any alternative cheat ways of getting through ? Can see this becoming a nightmare.
  • se9addick said:

    Pretty sure my tax code is wrong (570L instead of the standard 810l) - just spent 29 mins on hold (0845 number )with Her Majesty's finest befor giving up. Does anyone have any alternative cheat ways of getting through ? Can see this becoming a nightmare.

    Do you have a company car or any other benefit? Do you owe tax from earlier years?

    If the answer to either question is "yes" then that will probably be why your code is different.

    Just trying to save you some grief maybe by making a couple of suggestions.
  • or if you have bupa or any other health benefit. That also lowers it
  • se9addick said:

    Pretty sure my tax code is wrong (570L instead of the standard 810l) - just spent 29 mins on hold (0845 number )with Her Majesty's finest befor giving up. Does anyone have any alternative cheat ways of getting through ? Can see this becoming a nightmare.

    Do you have a company car or any other benefit? Do you owe tax from earlier years?

    If the answer to either question is "yes" then that will probably be why your code is different.

    Just trying to save you some grief maybe by making a couple of suggestions.
    Nope, guess I could owe tax, but not sure how, I just pay regular PAYE and NI contributions as any other employee would.

    Don't have private healthcare as a benefit either.
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