[cite]Posted By: Bexley Dan[/cite]The counter argument to this however Bing is looking at the signings made by Lennie Lawrence in the summer of 1985. We virtually bought a team that summer and they gelled and won promotion. The promotion under Curbs wouldn't have happened had we not signed Mendonca, followed by the boost that Mills and Youds gave us. Sometimes you can't make a silk purse out of and all that. I agree we shouldn't rush in and by anybody but with the right addition or two, this squad is good enough to go up but without it they aren't and i think it will be a missed opportunity if we do not get the right players in to compliment what we have. The two Powell have brought in so far were definitely needed but i think we will come up short again if we don't add a proper ******** player. (couldn' bring myself to type the words). The team doesn't lack effort, it lacks a bit of class pulling the strings.
Well its about balance but as was the original point mentioned by Henry. Rich owners doesn't necessarily mean big budgets. In the end its down to the managers assessment of the players he needs plus the availability of funds from within the budget. Dowie and Pardew pushed the spending beyond the budget. In the end that was a failure.
We can go back to Lennie's era and say that his recipe was the successful one. On the other hand I could quote you Mullerys team re-building which ended in failure. I wonder though whether the kind of players that Lennie was able to sign would even be available within our budget now.
I am not going to turn down a gifted play maker if we can get one - that would be foolish. I would just re-iterate the point that Brighton , Bournemouth, and in recent years Doncaster and Swansea have succeeded despite a lack of wonga. It may be that their managers are just good at bringing in cheap talent, on the other hand maybe, just maybe, they set out to coach their players to pass the ball, they worked on the individual players technical side and they got them playing the way we would all like our team to play, better than than sum of the parts.
For me its not about individual players (they all have their pluses and minuses at this level) but finding a central midfield pairing that works and is able to contribute a fair share of goals + assists. I've mentioned previously that a Semedo/McCormack pairing is excellent in defensive quality, but lacks any forward threat. This can work ok in away matches as we can counter with pace out wide/up front, but not so at home. You can probably count on one hand the number of times either the Semedo/Racon partnership or Semedo/McCormack pairing have found themselves in goal scoring positions - they just don't/won't get forward enough IMHO. Jackson in central midfield, with what we have, makes a lot of sense given his past record and evidence that he does get into goal scoring positions and also creates chances for others. If not him, then we need to look at the loan market as we will need more goals/assists from central midfield if we are to be a successful team this season. In home games this season, this is the one area of the team where we have struggled to really influence games and it does need tweaking.
'Better than some of the parts'. Exactly Bing. That's about coaching, tactics and team play.
No1. The away comparison is important. The way we play away suits the players we have as we tend to sit and counter. Trouble is we too often do the same at home where the other team has come to defend as well.
'Better than some of the parts'. Exactly Bing. That's about coaching, tactics and team play.
No1. The away comparison is important. The way we play away suits the players we have as we tend to sit and counter. Trouble is we too often do the same at home where the other team has come to defend as well.
[cite]Posted By: Henry Irving[/cite]'Better than some of the parts'. Exactly Bing. That's about coaching, tactics and team play.
No1. The away comparison is important. The way we play away suits the players we have as we tend to sit and counter. Trouble is we too often do the same at home where the other team has come to defend as well.
i know you're ignoring me Henry so it's probably a little unfair pointing this out as you cannot respond (unless you go against your self imposed ban of course) but does it not seem remotely feasible that the players we have in central midfield are not capable of dictating play and doing anything other than counter attacking. seems blindingly obvious to me.
[cite]Posted By: Elthamaddick[/cite]certainly not lack of ability, I bet there are more than a few championship clubs that would have either Racon or Semedo in their sides.
We'd have sold them by now if that was the case.
It's not so much that they lack ability. They're both good at what they do with the right type of players around them.
They're probably not as good as some say they are but they'd get in plenty of other League One sides wouldn't they? Probably decent squad players for some Championship sides as well.
[cite]Posted By: Elthamaddick[/cite]certainly not lack of ability, I bet there are more than a few championship clubs that would have either Racon or Semedo in their sides.
We'd have sold them by now if that was the case.
It's not so much that they lack ability. They're both good at what they do with the right type of players around them.
They're probably not as good as some say they are but they'd get in plenty of other League One sides wouldn't they? Probably decent squad players for some Championship sides as well.
Individually both have their attributes and away from home their physicality is a plus -at home it doesn't work and my belief is until that changes, we aren't going to get out of this, or any division - we couldn't even dictate play against Luton, Walsall and Swindon, although i accept Macormack had a hand in some of that and he's even worse.
Both Jose and Theirry have ability. That's not I think in question. I just don't think for a top / promotion chasing team they create and score enough goals. You can wear Rose tinted specs for as long as you like but that I am afraid is the reality. Until ghat issue is addressed in the loan or transfer market imho we will struggle for a top two spot.
I agree SHG but loaning a player is only one option and that may not be possible.
I'd love to see a creative goal scoring CM who can put his foot in join but they are in short supply.
As bing has said CP can coach around it or we can try different players there or we can try to get the assists and goals from the flanks which is what has been happening so far.
Can you at least respect the fact it was a whisper and not sent for everyone. I know you want to show off to everyone but at least consider the rest of the board.
now please go away and leave me alone. You're tiresome, you haven't even bothered to read all the other people's points which give a whole range of views on the issues of which mine was just one.
i apologise - it was the first whisper i have received but as you seemed to be digging me out i decided to dig you out. The fact that you don't like that you decided to twist things and accuse me of getting personal. You then followed that up by saying you would ignore me - that, for today makes you a special case. it's not often a grown man 'whispers' you to say that - in fact its quite bizzarre and to now say i'm tiresome shows just how condescending you can be. i'll leave it there, touchy.
[cite]Posted By: ShootersHillGuru[/cite]Both Jose and Theirry have ability. That's not I think in question. I just don't think for a top / promotion chasing team they create and score enough goals. You can wear Rose tinted specs for as long as you like but that I am afraid is the reality. Until ghat issue is addressed in the loan or transfer market imho we will struggle for a top two spot.
My specs have been tinted that way for years!
Can we think of players who, over the years, started their careers in one role and were changed to another.
Well I'll give you one (but not in the biblical sense) and a player who is very much close to things at the moment. One Keith Peacock.
A large chunk of his career was as a winger. Finished it as a tucked in midfielder. He had the technical ability and was a good passer.
Can you at least respect the fact it was a whisper and not sent for everyone. I know you want to show off to everyone but at least consider the rest of the board.
now please go away and leave me alone. You're tiresome, you haven't even bothered to read all the other people's points which give a whole range of views on the issues of which mine was just one.
i apologise - it was the first whisper i have received but as you seemed to be digging me out i decided to dig you out. The fact that you don't like that you decided to twist things and accuse me of getting personal. You then followed that up by saying you would ignore me - that, for today makes you a special case. it's not often a grown man 'whispers' you to say that - in fact its quite bizzarre and to now say i'm tiresome shows just how condescending you can be. i'll leave it there, touchy.
LMAO I would say when whispers go wrong but I dont think this is that!!!
Can you at least respect the fact it was a whisper and not sent for everyone. I know you want to show off to everyone but at least consider the rest of the board.
now please go away and leave me alone. You're tiresome, you haven't even bothered to read all the other people's points which give a whole range of views on the issues of which mine was just one.
i apologise - it was the first whisper i have received but as you seemed to be digging me out i decided to dig you out. The fact that you don't like that you decided to twist things and accuse me of getting personal. You then followed that up by saying you would ignore me - that, for today makes you a special case. it's not often a grown man 'whispers' you to say that - in fact its quite bizzarre and to now say i'm tiresome shows just how condescending you can be. i'll leave it there, touchy.
LMAO I would say when whispers go wrong but I dont think this is that!!!
whoops - done it again - two genuine errors - apologies
In a nutshell, Semedo is a defensive midfielder - no question.
Racon, is also quite defensive IMO, although some people think he is attacking. If he is an attacking midfielder, then how many goals has he scored for us ?
I'd hazard a guess it's about 3 a season.
How many shots does he have ? Not many IMO.
How many forward passes does he make, you know proper defence splitting or over the top of the defence ? Not many IMO.
How often does he burst through to support the front players ? Not often IMO.
Basically, Racon is also fairly defensive IMO. At best he's a "centre" midfielder, but no way is he attacking.
So there you go, neither central midfielders get forward enough, although you only want one of them to do so.
[cite]Posted By: Covered End[/cite]In a nutshell, Semedo is a defensive midfielder - no question.
Racon, is also quite defensive IMO, although some people think he is attacking. If he is an attacking midfielder, then how many goals has he scored for us ?
I'd hazard a guess it's about 3 a season.
How many shots does he have ? Not many IMO.
How many forward passes does he make, you know proper defence splitting or over the top of the defence ? Not many IMO.
How often does he burst through to support the front players ? Not often IMO.
Basically, Racon is also fairly defensive IMO. At best he's a "centre" midfielder, but no way is he attacking.
So there you go, neither central midfielders get forward enough, although you only want one of them to do so.
Why don't we put Jackson in the middle? He get's forward a lot and I am pretty sure he will be like the Danny Murphy of League one. Reid will be good on the wing alongside him.
Now akpo has left semedo is the player I'm most embarassed to see the ball drop to in a shooting position
Its painful that he can't really strike a ball properly
Racon has a decent strike on him but doesn't seem prepared to have a dig when the chance arrives , preferring to lay the ball off
As a stopper semedo is the man and I think racon has got his foot in or blocked a few more often than before this season
I'd like to try and get reid back into the form he showed earlier in the season but without a decent fullback (not too keen on fry and have heard bad reports on bessone) behind him we may be exposed defensively
[cite]Posted By: oohaahmortimer[/cite]Racon has a decent strike on him but doesn't seem prepared to have a dig when the chance arrives , preferring to lay the ball off
In our last relegation season once Racon had returned from injury, he had a number of decent strike attempts from long range, including a couple of superlative goals.
Had a little spell in the autumn of doing the same, but that seems to have now dried up.
[cite]Posted By: oohaahmortimer[/cite]As a stopper semedo is the man and I think racon has got his foot in or blocked a few more often than before this season
For all Semedo's sterling work as a destroyer, he is limited in everything else he does.
And looks very much like a defender in midfield.
Maybe playing him in that position also contributes to a of lack of fluency in our midfield?
Not digging him out, not at all ..... but am posing the question.
[cite]Posted By: oohaahmortimer[/cite]As a stopper semedo is the man and I think racon has got his foot in or blocked a few more often than before this season
For all Semedo's sterling work as a destroyer, he is limited in everything else he does.
And looks very much like a defender in midfield.
Maybe playing him in that position also contributes to a of lack of fluency in our midfield?
Not digging him out, not at all ..... but am posing the question.
interesting that from Dazzler21's thread Racon has had relatively a lot of shots on target compared to our other players. Not enough IMHO but he's up there.
Semedo is limited as is Racon and all our other players. That's why they are playing for us and not a Prem or even CCC team. Most could play at a higher level and many have but they are what they are.
The question that Bing posed was could they be improved individually through coaching and could they, through coaching and team play, become more than the sum of their parts?
That is however a medium term solution and people want instant fixes.
We shall see who CP gets in at the end of the month on loan (if anyone) but not sure how big a pool of players he will have to choose from.
[cite]Posted By: Henry Irving[/cite]Semedo is limited as is Racon and all our other players. That's why they are playing for us and not a Prem or even CCC team. Most could play at a higher level and many have but they are what they are.
Semedo always looks comfortable in 4-5-1, wins and gives the ball well, as one of the triangle of 3 CMs.
As one of only 2 CMs, he still tends to play the same role positionally .......which draws Racon deeper, to pick up Semedo's short passing; Racon then moves the ball along but unless one of the 2 strikers in a 4-4-2 drops deeper and shows for a pass, then often there is too much space between Racon and our front line.
The ball instead goes wide to our deep-lying wide men, giving opportunity for the opposing defence to regroup, getting numbers behind the ball.
Individually they are both top class league one players, but for whatever reason (I am no coach/manager and have no pretences otherwise, so I couldn't say why) they don't seem to work as a pair, at home games at least. The problem seems to be that the whole somehow ends up as less than the sum of its parts.
It's not a problem I would relish trying to solve, but if Chris and co could pull it off I can't see a better midfield pair in the division.
have resurected this thread because I think we are going to find out over the next three weeks or so the answer to the question of if any real money exists. Michael Slater has stated that investment will happen when required well I think its money where your mouth is time. We can get into the top six this season but not without loaning in four quality players to do a job until may and give us a genuine stab at getting out of this appalling division.
I agree we need the squad to be strenghtened desperately.
Ideally I would like ( yet ) another left back so Fry could move to cb or a cb , a goalkeeper who would genuinely threaten Robbie for the gloves and a midfielder who can impose himself on the game.
The board may decide to do what they consider enough to get us in the play-off mix and in with a shout. Then if we go up it's a bonus. Then they revamp the squad in the Summer to try and build a squad that could and would survive in the Championship with only minor alterations. Pretty much like what Southampton are in the middle of doing now.
I don't think not going all out in the loans market tells us much. At the end of the day, we might go on a great run with some great loanees and not get promoted anyway. The play-offs are a lottery and the automatic places look as far away as ever. Then the chances are none of those players would be here next season to work with.
Leicester have loaned I think five qualityprem players in to boost their promotion bid and are now flying. I am not suggesting loans of that quality but we do need players markedly better than what we have and that means forking out in the short term to reap rewards in the medium to long. We are not going up with this lot. FACT.
Comments
Well its about balance but as was the original point mentioned by Henry. Rich owners doesn't necessarily mean big budgets. In the end its down to the managers assessment of the players he needs plus the availability of funds from within the budget. Dowie and Pardew pushed the spending beyond the budget. In the end that was a failure.
We can go back to Lennie's era and say that his recipe was the successful one. On the other hand I could quote you Mullerys team re-building which ended in failure. I wonder though whether the kind of players that Lennie was able to sign would even be available within our budget now.
I am not going to turn down a gifted play maker if we can get one - that would be foolish. I would just re-iterate the point that Brighton , Bournemouth, and in recent years Doncaster and Swansea have succeeded despite a lack of wonga. It may be that their managers are just good at bringing in cheap talent, on the other hand maybe, just maybe, they set out to coach their players to pass the ball, they worked on the individual players technical side and they got them playing the way we would all like our team to play, better than than sum of the parts.
No1. The away comparison is important. The way we play away suits the players we have as we tend to sit and counter. Trouble is we too often do the same at home where the other team has come to defend as well.
No1. The away comparison is important. The way we play away suits the players we have as we tend to sit and counter. Trouble is we too often do the same at home where the other team has come to defend as well.
They are quality players who are not doing as well as we would hope in this division.
We now have players up front who need crosses to thrive.
The midfield needs to reflect this.
i know you're ignoring me Henry so it's probably a little unfair pointing this out as you cannot respond (unless you go against your self imposed ban of course) but does it not seem remotely feasible that the players we have in central midfield are not capable of dictating play and doing anything other than counter attacking. seems blindingly obvious to me.
They're probably not as good as some say they are but they'd get in plenty of other League One sides wouldn't they? Probably decent squad players for some Championship sides as well.
Individually both have their attributes and away from home their physicality is a plus -at home it doesn't work and my belief is until that changes, we aren't going to get out of this, or any division - we couldn't even dictate play against Luton, Walsall and Swindon, although i accept Macormack had a hand in some of that and he's even worse.
I'd love to see a creative goal scoring CM who can put his foot in join but they are in short supply.
As bing has said CP can coach around it or we can try different players there or we can try to get the assists and goals from the flanks which is what has been happening so far.
i apologise - it was the first whisper i have received but as you seemed to be digging me out i decided to dig you out. The fact that you don't like that you decided to twist things and accuse me of getting personal. You then followed that up by saying you would ignore me - that, for today makes you a special case. it's not often a grown man 'whispers' you to say that - in fact its quite bizzarre and to now say i'm tiresome shows just how condescending you can be. i'll leave it there, touchy.
My specs have been tinted that way for years!
Can we think of players who, over the years, started their careers in one role and were changed to another.
Well I'll give you one (but not in the biblical sense) and a player who is very much close to things at the moment. One Keith Peacock.
A large chunk of his career was as a winger. Finished it as a tucked in midfielder. He had the technical ability and was a good passer.
whoops - done it again - two genuine errors - apologies
Racon, is also quite defensive IMO, although some people think he is attacking. If he is an attacking midfielder, then how many goals has he scored for us ?
I'd hazard a guess it's about 3 a season.
How many shots does he have ? Not many IMO.
How many forward passes does he make, you know proper defence splitting or over the top of the defence ? Not many IMO.
How often does he burst through to support the front players ? Not often IMO.
Basically, Racon is also fairly defensive IMO. At best he's a "centre" midfielder, but no way is he attacking.
So there you go, neither central midfielders get forward enough, although you only want one of them to do so.
Why don't we put Jackson in the middle? He get's forward a lot and I am pretty sure he will be like the Danny Murphy of League one. Reid will be good on the wing alongside him.
Because the defence play so deep - and they play much of their football in front of our box.
And why do the defence play so deep? Because our central defenders have no pace and don't want to get caught playing too high a line.
Solution - Pace in central defence. Simple....:o)
Its painful that he can't really strike a ball properly
Racon has a decent strike on him but doesn't seem prepared to have a dig when the chance arrives , preferring to lay the ball off
As a stopper semedo is the man and I think racon has got his foot in or blocked a few more often than before this season
I'd like to try and get reid back into the form he showed earlier in the season but without a decent fullback (not too keen on fry and have heard bad reports on bessone) behind him we may be exposed defensively
In SCP we trust
In our last relegation season once Racon had returned from injury, he had a number of decent strike attempts from long range, including a couple of superlative goals.
Had a little spell in the autumn of doing the same, but that seems to have now dried up.
For all Semedo's sterling work as a destroyer, he is limited in everything else he does.
And looks very much like a defender in midfield.
Maybe playing him in that position also contributes to a of lack of fluency in our midfield?
Not digging him out, not at all ..... but am posing the question.
interesting that from Dazzler21's thread Racon has had relatively a lot of shots on target compared to our other players. Not enough IMHO but he's up there.
Semedo is limited as is Racon and all our other players. That's why they are playing for us and not a Prem or even CCC team. Most could play at a higher level and many have but they are what they are.
The question that Bing posed was could they be improved individually through coaching and could they, through coaching and team play, become more than the sum of their parts?
That is however a medium term solution and people want instant fixes.
We shall see who CP gets in at the end of the month on loan (if anyone) but not sure how big a pool of players he will have to choose from.
Semedo always looks comfortable in 4-5-1, wins and gives the ball well, as one of the triangle of 3 CMs.
As one of only 2 CMs, he still tends to play the same role positionally .......which draws Racon deeper, to pick up Semedo's short passing; Racon then moves the ball along but unless one of the 2 strikers in a 4-4-2 drops deeper and shows for a pass, then often there is too much space between Racon and our front line.
The ball instead goes wide to our deep-lying wide men, giving opportunity for the opposing defence to regroup, getting numbers behind the ball.
It's not a problem I would relish trying to solve, but if Chris and co could pull it off I can't see a better midfield pair in the division.
Ideally I would like ( yet ) another left back so Fry could move to cb or a cb , a goalkeeper who would genuinely threaten Robbie for the gloves and a midfielder who can impose himself on the game.
The board may decide to do what they consider enough to get us in the play-off mix and in with a shout. Then if we go up it's a bonus. Then they revamp the squad in the Summer to try and build a squad that could and would survive in the Championship with only minor alterations. Pretty much like what Southampton are in the middle of doing now.
I don't think not going all out in the loans market tells us much. At the end of the day, we might go on a great run with some great loanees and not get promoted anyway. The play-offs are a lottery and the automatic places look as far away as ever. Then the chances are none of those players would be here next season to work with.