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Massive Kick in the Balls for Sky from the EU

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2011/feb/03/pub-landlady-premier-league-television-rights


If anybody needed further reminding of why Murdoch's tabloids are so rabidly anti-European Union then here is part of the reason why.......

This is a huge deal, it effectively wrecks the Sky business model for pay TV and News Corp. will throw millions on legal fees to try and get this over-turned.

Unbelievable stuff, the EU is basically saying that EU consumers are within their rights to shop for the cheapest pay TV provider in the EU and there is nothing that national operators like Sky can do about it.

The Dirty Digger will have choked on his cornflakes when he got told about this.
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Comments

  • Still got to go through the European High Court I think and then the UK Courts
  • Let's hope Sky continue to lose as they take it through the various courts because then maybe it will be cheaper for all of us.
  • To be honest, I think it's a great step but I think it's very very early days for this... this is only judicial opinion and this kind of thing can vary massively in who is giving the opinion - as Ormiston says there will be tens of millions of £ ploughed into fighting Sky's corner and there will be a lot of European broadcasters backing them up as well such as Canal +
  • Boo

    We are aiming to get back on the Sky gravy train soon. Why wish for it to be derailed?
  • [cite]Posted By: C.Walsh'sLoveChild[/cite]Still got to go through the European High Court I think and then the UK Courts

    No way can the UK courts over rule the EU courts.
  • So Sky's business model goes tits up and they either pull out their cash or instead offer a vastly reduced amount on the next deal. What would that mean exactly?

    It could mean that ALL clubs get less cash but still have players signed up on lucrative contracts that they can't break. What then? More clubs going into administration? Even more reliance on a foreign sugar daddy?

    I'm sure that Man City and Chelsea could still survive without Sky cash, but could anyone else?

    Careful what you wish for.
  • [cite]Posted By: Stu of HU5[/cite]
    [cite]Posted By: C.Walsh'sLoveChild[/cite]Still got to go through the European High Court I think and then the UK Courts

    No way can the UK courts over rule the EU courts.

    Just repeating what they said on BBC News
  • Sky will just put the price up for the average punter. I believe that pubs pay c. £20k a year. That is enough to make it worth investing in a foreign decoder. If you are a residential consumer you are unlikely to pay c. £300 for a box from Greece (or wherever) if it will take you over a year to make save that sum on subscriptions.

    Also two other things will happen. Sky/The Premier League will increase the price for the Greek (and other European broadcasters) to show their football, and as soon as the Greek suppliers are welcomed into the UK market legally they will put their prices up to make more money. It will make more sense to make the service too expensive for their own country if they can now make five times as much money by selling to the UK, where we seem to always pay more than our international neighbours.

    I think both Sky and the millionaire footballers will be ok for some time to come.
  • The ECJ is the highest court in the European Union and gives judgements based on the consistant application of EU community law.

    However, it's then down to each national court to then interpret and apply ECJ decisions. Some do religiously, some don't. Sometimes a decision may be given in one language but when it is interpreted into another language there is a slight change in emphasis on crucial points.

    I sometimes have to interpret ECJ decisions as part of my job. Some are better than others. Some are complete bollocks and, having often waited years to get to the stage where the case reaches that level and a decision comes out, it ends up being a complete fudge and not worth the paper it's written on.

    "That's life" - as they say in France.
  • The pub in question (The Red, White and Blue) was paying £480 a month for Sky, but found a Greek supplier for ca £120 a month. Their argument rested on there being a European market which means among other things you can buy cars from an EU nation, so why can't you take a Sky feed from another EU supplier?

    Although it sounds logical to me it's down to the letter of the law, but so far so good and round one to the little guy. However Murdoch's pervasive and malign influence on Britain says to me that this has got a long way to go.
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  • It doesn't entirely sit well with the fundamental EU principle of free movement of goods & services does it?

    But I'm sure Sky and the other broadcasters will manoeuvre themselves out of it smelling of roses
  • edited February 2011
    [cite]Posted By: kings hill addick[/cite]Sky will just put the price up for the average punter. I believe that pubs pay c. £20k a year. That is enough to make it worth investing in a foreign decoder. If you are a residential consumer you are unlikely to pay c. £300 for a box from Greece (or wherever) if it will take you over a year to make save that sum on subscriptions.

    Also two other things will happen. Sky/The Premier League will increase the price for the Greek (and other European broadcasters) to show their football, and as soon as the Greek suppliers are welcomed into the UK market legally they will put their prices up to make more money. It will make more sense to make the service too expensive for their own country if they can now make five times as much money by selling to the UK, where we seem to always pay more than our international neighbours.

    I think both Sky and the millionaire footballers will be ok for some time to come.

    I should probably declare an interest here as the company I work for has done a lot of work for pay TV operators in this area of cross-border regulation.

    In your analysis you are making the mistake of conflating the Premier League with Sky - they have very different interests at stake here.

    It is the The Premier League itself that sells its rights overseas - not Sky - and their operations are overseen by a gentleman called Phil Lines who can normally be seen walking around with an immovable smirk.

    As a result, Sky has no power at all to tell the PL that it should increase its charges for the Greek operators in question. Sky is a customer of the EPL - a powerful one yes - but still just a customer nonetheless.

    Moreover, the EPL rights are really only worth whatever an operator can afford to pay for them and the EPL has already screwed over most of the worlds' pay TV operators for every last penny they can force out of them.

    In Hong Kong for example - total TV market of just 2.2 million homes - the EPL persuaded the local cable TV operator, i-Cable, to pay a staggering US$250 million for a three-year exclusive EPL deal!!!

    i-Cable only has around 900,000 subscribers now so there is simply no way that they can recoup their investment, it is solely a loss-leader to try and bring more subscribers to the service and then upsell them to other content.

    What's more, as we go forward, the arrival of "Connected TV's" will almost certainly radically change the broadcast market anyway by allowing sports rights holders such as the EPL to sell their content directly to subscribers over the Internet rather than via pay TV players.

    Interesting times ahead, that's for sure.
  • edited February 2011
    Hate Murdoch, hate the money in the game, so any removal of that is good for me...
  • edited February 2011
    OA, I am a distributor for Utility Warehouse in the UK. UW is a MLM business that sells a "one stop shop" for all deregulated utilities in the UK. Gas, Electricity, Phone, Broadband, Mobile Phones. UW has about 350,000 UK customers but the plan is to increase this tenfold over the next five plus years.

    It has a unique business model as it straddles both the energy and telephony markets.

    The one major service offering it doesn't have (apart from Water which is still not fully deregulated) is TV.

    As we now know, BT have its own TV offering via Broadband called BT Vision. It has had limited penetration. We also have Freeview with some top up facilities. We also have one major cable operator - Virgin Media. All three now are able offer Sky Sports as an top up option. Sky have responded by extending its sporting channels as a differentiator.

    Telecom Plus Plc - Owners and operators of Utility Warehouse have announced to the LSE that they will shortly be offering a TV package as part of their service offering.

    As I understand it they are in negotiations with amongst others BBC, ITV and TalkTalk to provide a Broadband delivered TV service to go head to head with Sky and Virgin. Clearly that will mean Sports and Football in particular. My guess is that they are going to carry both Sky Sports and ESPN or whoever in the future has the rights to the EPL games in the UK.

    As I understand it there are regulatory issues to be resolved before this can go live. Time scales could be up to a year or more before they can launch.

    That is just a bit of background.

    Sky, it seems to me, is in a increasingly difficult position as being both a platform provider and a programme maker/channel operator. I wonder how much longer that can continue?

    With new platforms/delivery vehicles available, it seems to me that Sky may be forced to decide on does it make programmes or does it operate as a platform provider?

    What would Sky do if it lost its EPL contract to ESPN, for example? As I understand it ESPN is not a platform provider, its a programme maker/channel operator. EPL will require the widest market for its games, so presumably ESPN would approach all the platform providers in the UK - BSKYB, Virgin, BT, Freeview/Top Up and soon the UW consortium, to market its Sports TV channels by subscription. Would BSKYB give ESPN the bums rush?

    You say that the EPL will be able to sell directly to internet subscribers. That I understand but somebody has to put together a production to sell. Presumably the EPL will engage a production company to do this? Presumably this could be a company owned by Sky?

    How do you see this panning out in practice? Is there still going to be subscription revenue streams available for the EPL from the existing different platforms of, terrestrial, cable, satellite and telephony; or will we see the EPL solely market to subscribers via the internet; or will there be a mix of both?

    I hope this makes sense.
  • [cite]Posted By: Off_it[/cite]So Sky's business model goes tits up and they either pull out their cash or instead offer a vastly reduced amount on the next deal. What would that mean exactly?

    It could mean that ALL clubs get less cash but still have players signed up on lucrative contracts that they can't break. What then? More clubs going into administration? Even more reliance on a foreign sugar daddy?

    I'm sure that Man City and Chelsea could still survive without Sky cash, but could anyone else?

    Careful what you wish for.

    As long as we can, who cares?

    The sooner the arse falls out of it the better.
  • edited February 2011
    [cite]Posted By: Off_it[/cite]So Sky's business model goes tits up and they either pull out their cash or instead offer a vastly reduced amount on the next deal. What would that mean exactly?

    It could mean that ALL clubs get less cash but still have players signed up on lucrative contracts that they can't break. What then? More clubs going into administration? Even more reliance on a foreign sugar daddy?

    I'm sure that Man City and Chelsea could still survive without Sky cash, but could anyone else?

    Careful what you wish for.

    I know the discussion has moved on a bit, but I just wanted to comment on this.

    I hear what you are saying about clubs being forced into administration if they cannot reduce their outgoings quick enough and I don't want that to happen. However, I firmly believe that if the TV money was reduced we would end up with a more even playing field. Airman has stated on here that the reason why the board offered free season tickets if we returned to the Prem in our Championship relegation season was that the gate money was insignificant compared to the TV money - something seems wrong to me about that.

    Also, whilst we languish in the lower leagues what happens to Sky has very little to do with us because we're not subsiidised by them. I'd like to see some of the big boys get their comeuppance!

    Interesting insight into the future from other posters - it's going to be an interesting couple of years!
  • This has everything to do with us!

    It is only because of potential sky money (after two promotions) that anyone would takeover a club losing 3-5m a year

    As long as it remains a collective deal and it doesn't go down the Italian route of clubs selling rights to their own games then we will be quids in
  • The unrealistic price Sky were charging pubs and clubs is the reason for this. I always thought that the landlady would win this case. Sky will just have to drop their prices, or fight with the EPL to charge more to other EU broadcasters. But even then, if Canal+ or whoever decides to sell it cheap there's nothing they can do about it. Until the dirty digger gets his political lapdogs together and persuades them to change the law...
  • edited February 2011
    [cite]Posted By: seriously_red[/cite]This has everything to do with us!

    It is only because of potential sky money (after two promotions) that anyone would takeover a club losing 3-5m a year

    As long as it remains a collective deal and it doesn't go down the Italian route of clubs selling rights to their own games then we will be quids in

    Good point!

    I still want to see Sky get a bloody nose though!
  • An across the board reduction in TV revenue to football would hurt those Clubs that have become reliant on it but could favour those that aren't and who have cut their cost base to the bone and who have other streams of income especially if they had a business development director in place to develop those income streams.

    Remind you of anyone?
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  • Isn't the Sky model fckd anyway? I won't pay £50 a month to Sky and watch on internet streams for the few games I want to. Quality is improving all the time (bandwidth speeds will increase hugely over the next 2 years) with hd quality to watch on a big screen. Trying to protect boarder rights in today's market doesn't work
  • My mate in Amsterdam pays about €20 for a cable package that includes every single premiership games amongst many other things. In Britain Sky takes us mugs for more than double that for a lesser service. Makes no sense. If Sky money to the clubs is cut then that's a good thing. It's an unsustainable model - let's not forget Murdoch could have pulled away the rug at any point. Who's going to compete with the money that Newscorp ploughs in? ESPN - doubt it look what happened when Setanta/Ondigital tried to duke it out with Sky over football BBC/ITV - no way. So having the clubs reliant on crumbs from the Sky table isn't a smart model. Obviously if we were a bigger crumb-gatherer I'd be happy to be benefiting from Sky, but logic says that relying on a very business focused and monopolistic broadcaster to sustain your business model isn't too clever. As Henry points out, those clubs that have weaned themselves off the Sky teat (albeit through misfortune, like us), could well come out of this looking relatively stronger.

    Everyone whines and whines about outrageous transfer fees and player wages, but when there's a risk that the very medium that has been fuelling that growth there's widespread fear and hand wringing. It's daft to suggest that investors are chasing that Sky money for profit reasons, or if they are, they're daft. The model is generally get the extra Sky money and then spunk it on Jimmy Bullard before the cheque's cleared, then use the parachute payments to desperately try and pay the overpriced players that you've wasted your money on before you were relegated, and now can't get rid of because you're paying them too much. If anything a model in which everyone is subject to more sensible governance is more likely to be profitable, regardless of whether 3-5M SKYBONANZA CASH briefly rests in your account.

    images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSK83M4VKYu75LLN3kygb4vR_Hgm8_U33YrcBiHnXj7WmYPA60Tk4TawQ
  • The question is Morts, how much does your Dutch friend pay to see televised matches from the highest league in Holland? The UK is the only country where people are desperate enough to pay the fees Sky charge to watch our own league matches - in other countries it is only of passing interest - hence the difference in cost. Be honest, how many people in England would pay anything at all to watch Dutch football?

    Hmm... that sounds like I'm defending Sky, which you will know is not the case from my earlier posts. All I'm saying is that they charge the maximum they think they can get away with. It's a very complicated issue because TV money is what created "The Premiership" - the question is whether it is a good thing or a bad thing.
  • True true Saga, the value of the league coverage is always going to be highest in its own locality. However, you could argue that where monopolies exist there should either be regulation that should make sure punters aren't ripped off. Using foreign broadcasters to create a competitive market could help to control Sky's pricing.

    For what it's worth I can only see this playing out in one of two ways:-

    1. Clubs will get a bit less cash, and they'll learn to live with a bit less cash
    2. Sky will pay a bit more and negotiate europe wide exclusivity and will sub-licence to other european networks at a much higher cost than they're currently paying. So, all will stay the same here, but the Greek premiership fan will either have to pay a lot more, or won't keep getting coverage, because Sky fear UK pubs will get themselves cut-price access to the coverage
  • I'm just shocked that pubs show live games using foreign feeds and that supposedly law abiding fans condone such criminality by frequenting said pubs during these illegal broadcasts.

    No one on CL does that, I'm sure.
  • they could always go and buy up all the other firms I would imagine with their buying power?
  • Well I for one hope that sky does get a financial black eye over this!

    The money generated is the reason for most of the excessive nonsense that goes on in football today, the desperation to keep in the Prem, the wages, the transfer fees!

    I heard on talksport that the landlady was paying A thousand pound a week, now in any business that seems a hell of a lot of money , especially with most pubs having a real tough time of it at present!.

    So one of the staunch defenders of the free market, does not like it when the market becomes free..... or there is 'choice involved'.

    Well I am anti-Murdoch so I am biased, good luck to driving these costs down, and well done to the landlady to have the balls to take sky on!

    It is enough for the 'Dirty digger to cry in his beer' isn't it,( Cannot see the bloke down at the local can you) how will I sleep at night worrying about sky's profitability, and share price!,...... quite soundly as it happens!

    Still Digger, will find a way out, he normally does..........
  • I think (Off_It) & (Henry) have made some valid points here - but Sky have caused this imbalanced infrastructure in football.

    Whilst Sky have this monopoly. Those days of Charlton or other club supporters, dreaming of European football are now long gone.

    If BT have no choice but to share the line with other companies, I do not believe Sky have a leg to stand on - in any court.
  • [cite]Posted By: E=mc2[/cite]
    If BT have no choice but to share the line with other companies

    OT I know, but apart from in Hull, Kingston Communications have a monopoly on the phones here.
  • What would worry me with this (if it were to go through) is the bit about these pubs using the greek boxes being able to show premier football at 3pm on a saturday afternoon. We constantly hear of our local non-league clubs (bromley/welling/ebbsfleet/dartford etc) struggling for existance. How many would they lose in attendances if punters had the choice of watching chelsea v man utd in their pub or standing on a terrace in the pouring rain watching their local team?

    So it's not those who benefit from sky's cash that would feel the force of this decision.
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