[cite]Posted By: kings hill addick[/cite]no one made them sign those contracts.
Argyle were amongst the lowest paying clubs in the Championship last season.
And their budget was workable last season.
It's this season they've come unstuck, still having to pay those existing contracts.
You can't move a contracted player on, unless he's willing to go.
So you must still pay his wages.
They wouldn't deserve to go under any more than Charlton did, or any other side suffering the effects of loss of revenue from Championship levels of income.
I think the point of this petition though, KHA, was not to support the club against paying the revenue, but to put pressure on the owners to fulfill the clubs obligations. Like you I do not think that the revenue should be at the bottom of the food chain when clubs have overspent or misaligned their resources but I do believe that owners should fulfill the obligations that they legally have taken on.
I don't want to prolong an argument as I probably don't have a much different opinion than you on the subject, but I can't help wondering about those contracts. If they were one of the lowest payers in the Championship then they must have know that relegation was a possibility? They must also have been aware of the implications of relegation. Maybe the club were more than happy to gamble on the World Cup revenue that was never guaranteed. As for Charlton it is thanks to the generosity of our board that we haven't been in the same problems as them.
I don't want Plymouth to suffer, particularly as this financial problem is systemic within football in this country, but we have a situation where many clubs are getting into trouble and 'agreeing' pennies in the pound with those that they owe money. At some point this will have to end in a club going into liquidation if for no other reason as to ensure that they are the last club that 'knocks, their debts. The only reason I mention the Inland Revenue so often with these situations is that they seem to be the only institution that all clubs owe money to. We have to remember that all football debts have to be honoured to ensure league membership.
None of the other creditors have any incentive to refuse to accept a agreement at c. 10p in the pound (Palace was 1p in the £). If the Inland Revenue were to force two or three clubs to go to the wall then the next one along would find a way to pay them off. For this reason alone in the end they will have to do something. I believe that they are already making inroads to challenge the Football authorities about their football debts rule. If that was not allowed to carry on then the football league(s) would stop this process of writing of c. 90% of debt and starting again as it would start to cost the it members money.
I feel sorry for Plymouth and their fans, and I don't really want them to be the example, but someone will be sooner or later, and my point was that despite that fact I still believe that Plymouth will survive at the last minute, just like Palace did and Portsmouth did.
Kap,
I don't know much about the new owners of Plymouth or the obligations that they agreed to when they came in to take over (I believe this happened quite recently) but if they had a business plan that required something that is now not there they might not be willing, or even able, to bail the club out now.
Even if they can I'm not sure that they can realistically be expected to do so when the club is going to continue to lose money for potentially years to come. Richard Murray in particular, and his fellow board members, have done a lot for our club but we were getting close to the end until the takeover. It is just unrealistic for football fans (club specific and in general) to expect wealthy individuals to continue to bankroll football.
The players (and their agents) are the only real winners in this industry right now but the Managers/Chairmen seem willing to keep throwing money at the problem chasing that extra income that comes with a promotion or avoiding relegation. Maybe we need a complete overhaul of football playing contracts that are limited to short time frames, or maybe there needs to be a cap that will have to be written into all contracts that is division dependent, but until this happens situations like Plymouth (and Portsmouth, Palace, Southampton and Southend) will continue to happen until the Inland Revenue forces one to go to the wall.
[cite]Posted By: kings hill addick[/cite]I feel sorry for Plymouth and their fans, and I don't really want them to be the example, but someone will be sooner or later, and my point was that despite that fact I still believe that Plymouth will survive at the last minute, just like Palace did and Portsmouth did.
Hi KHA, thanks for your considered reply. If you wonder why I take an interest, Argyle are of course my local club and many of my friends actively support them.
Argyle had been promised a cash injection by their Japanese owners, who apparently invested in the club because of the prospect of England hosting the 2018 World Cup. The money was promised by 31 December, but never materialised.
With the money from fire sales of players, and today £300k pledged by their own supporters' trust - it appears that they will be able to pay HMRC on Wednesday.
The next imperative is to be able to stay trading for the remainder of the season in order to fulfill their fixtures.
If they can do that, in the summer with existing player contracts expiring, the club can be restructured from a Championship set up to League One budget.
They just need a few months' time and then they can restructure.
The unusual point with the Argyle situation, is that their critical debt is so small.
You have to put in context that Argyle have been massively let down by their distant Japanese owners, who had promised payment by 31st December. No money has materialised.
They apparently bought the club in anticipation of making profits on the back of Home Park being nominated as a host ground for the 2018 World Cup. They've invested next to nothing and now appear to be totally disinterested in the future of the club.
This is a prime example of a club being taken over purely for anticipated future profits - by investors with no interest in football. Ridsdale is leaving because of the broken promises.
But he will continue to search for external investors in the club
Plymouth Argyle have survived an attempt by HM Revenue & Customs to be wound up in the High Court.
A winding-up petition over outstanding tax debts of £760,000 was dismissed because the amount has been paid by the League One club.
Ok this is off subject but really irritates me about the justice system. From what i can see they actually went to court today for the case to be dismissed, so that costs everybody, including the tax payer, money and ties up the court room for the amount of time it takes to "say they paid up" "OK, everybody go home." Why couldn't HMRC phone the judge and say its ok don't have to come over on Wednesday, see you in Feb when they can't pay that"
I was on Jury service recently and one of the cases I was on the victim and only prosecution witness had returned to Poland and not returned for 9 months and refused to be contacted by phone. But we still had two days of deliberation over whether a written statement was good enough and in the nd we were instructed to find the accused not guilty, could have been sorted in someones office a lot cheaper.
I feel sorry for the fans, a real case of speculators coming in an ruining the club. Don't know if HMRC can now liquidate them after the next hearing, but presumably they have no revenue sources to pay the next tax bill and this could be the first club that the revenue decide to kill.
"Risdale arriving as an advisor", five words to strike fear into the heart of all football fans. Clearly he has lots of experience of this kind of situation.
Sad for Devon football. It will be a struggle for them to escape relegation. It was interesting to meet some Plymouth fans in the away on saturday, when I asked them why they were there they said it was to support a fellow Devon team.
Plymouth have been deducted 10 points to leave them rock-bottom of the League One table, the Football League have confirmed.
Cash-strapped Argyle released a notice of intention to appoint an administrator in a bid to solve their financial problems on Monday.
And the Football League have, as expected, responded by hitting the struggling club with a 10-point deduction which sees them slip into the league basement.
A statement on the organisation's official website said: "The Football League can confirm that Plymouth Argyle Football Club have been deducted ten points with immediate effect.
"The sporting sanction has been implemented following receipt of formal confirmation that the club had filed a notice of intention to appoint an administrator with the High Court.
"This action is defined as an insolvency event within The League's regulations as it establishes a moratorium on creditor actions against the club
[cite]Posted By: dj-ecfc[/cite]Sad for Devon football. It will be a struggle for them to escape relegation. It was interesting to meet some Plymouth fans in the away on saturday, when I asked them why they were there they said it was to support a fellow Devon team.
Good luck to them
Weird !, couldn't see myself going 200 miles to support Millwall (actually wouldn't go 200 feet)
Plymouth Argyle have gone into administration following a meeting of the club's directors.
The League One outfit have appointed Brendan Guilfoyle of the P&A Partnership as their administrator.
A High Court judge is in the process of deciding whether Her Majesty's Revenue & Customs can still apply for a winding-up petition.
P & A are looking for a buyer for the cash-strapped outfit, who have already been deducted 10 points, by 17 March.
"A number of interested parties have declared an interest in acquiring the club," a statement from the administrator said.
It continued: "It is imperative that a preferred bidder is identified who can provide ongoing funding by 17 March 2011 at the latest."
"The administrators are due to meet with Plymouth City Council on Monday 7 March 2011 with a view to obtaining their assistance in securing the survival of the club."
BBC Sport understands that HMRC is concerned that without a winding-up petition being presented to Argyle, they could lose out on money owed to them by the club during the administration process.
Plymouth's board took the decision to enter administration at a meeting on Friday, having issued a 'notice of intention' to appoint an administrator on Monday, 21 February.
The 'notice of intention' protected Argyle from creditors, including HMRC, who are currently owed £300,000.
However the protection it offered only lasts for 10 days and was due to run out on Monday.
Argyle successfully dodged an HMRC winding-up petition last month, when they cleared £760,000 of tax debt.
The club's staff, who have not been paid for six weeks, issued an impassioned statement on Thursday pleading with the directors to "reach a clear, concise and workable solution" to the financial problems at Home Park
Comments
Argyle were amongst the lowest paying clubs in the Championship last season.
And their budget was workable last season.
It's this season they've come unstuck, still having to pay those existing contracts.
You can't move a contracted player on, unless he's willing to go.
So you must still pay his wages.
They wouldn't deserve to go under any more than Charlton did, or any other side suffering the effects of loss of revenue from Championship levels of income.
I don't want to prolong an argument as I probably don't have a much different opinion than you on the subject, but I can't help wondering about those contracts. If they were one of the lowest payers in the Championship then they must have know that relegation was a possibility? They must also have been aware of the implications of relegation. Maybe the club were more than happy to gamble on the World Cup revenue that was never guaranteed. As for Charlton it is thanks to the generosity of our board that we haven't been in the same problems as them.
I don't want Plymouth to suffer, particularly as this financial problem is systemic within football in this country, but we have a situation where many clubs are getting into trouble and 'agreeing' pennies in the pound with those that they owe money. At some point this will have to end in a club going into liquidation if for no other reason as to ensure that they are the last club that 'knocks, their debts. The only reason I mention the Inland Revenue so often with these situations is that they seem to be the only institution that all clubs owe money to. We have to remember that all football debts have to be honoured to ensure league membership.
None of the other creditors have any incentive to refuse to accept a agreement at c. 10p in the pound (Palace was 1p in the £). If the Inland Revenue were to force two or three clubs to go to the wall then the next one along would find a way to pay them off. For this reason alone in the end they will have to do something. I believe that they are already making inroads to challenge the Football authorities about their football debts rule. If that was not allowed to carry on then the football league(s) would stop this process of writing of c. 90% of debt and starting again as it would start to cost the it members money.
I feel sorry for Plymouth and their fans, and I don't really want them to be the example, but someone will be sooner or later, and my point was that despite that fact I still believe that Plymouth will survive at the last minute, just like Palace did and Portsmouth did.
Kap,
I don't know much about the new owners of Plymouth or the obligations that they agreed to when they came in to take over (I believe this happened quite recently) but if they had a business plan that required something that is now not there they might not be willing, or even able, to bail the club out now.
Even if they can I'm not sure that they can realistically be expected to do so when the club is going to continue to lose money for potentially years to come. Richard Murray in particular, and his fellow board members, have done a lot for our club but we were getting close to the end until the takeover. It is just unrealistic for football fans (club specific and in general) to expect wealthy individuals to continue to bankroll football.
The players (and their agents) are the only real winners in this industry right now but the Managers/Chairmen seem willing to keep throwing money at the problem chasing that extra income that comes with a promotion or avoiding relegation. Maybe we need a complete overhaul of football playing contracts that are limited to short time frames, or maybe there needs to be a cap that will have to be written into all contracts that is division dependent, but until this happens situations like Plymouth (and Portsmouth, Palace, Southampton and Southend) will continue to happen until the Inland Revenue forces one to go to the wall.
Hi KHA, thanks for your considered reply. If you wonder why I take an interest, Argyle are of course my local club and many of my friends actively support them.
Argyle had been promised a cash injection by their Japanese owners, who apparently invested in the club because of the prospect of England hosting the 2018 World Cup. The money was promised by 31 December, but never materialised.
With the money from fire sales of players, and today £300k pledged by their own supporters' trust - it appears that they will be able to pay HMRC on Wednesday.
The next imperative is to be able to stay trading for the remainder of the season in order to fulfill their fixtures.
If they can do that, in the summer with existing player contracts expiring, the club can be restructured from a Championship set up to League One budget.
They just need a few months' time and then they can restructure.
The unusual point with the Argyle situation, is that their critical debt is so small.
"Struggling Plymouth Argyle Football Club has been been thrown a financial lifeline by supporters.
Plymouth Argyle Supporters Training and Development Trust has lent the club what the BBC understands could be as much as £300,000.
Peter Ridsdale, who was brought in as an advisor, said it would meet the club's next tax payment on Wednesday.
But he is leaving Argyle on Tuesday because £2m from the club's major shareholders has failed to arrive."
They apparently bought the club in anticipation of making profits on the back of Home Park being nominated as a host ground for the 2018 World Cup. They've invested next to nothing and now appear to be totally disinterested in the future of the club.
This is a prime example of a club being taken over purely for anticipated future profits - by investors with no interest in football. Ridsdale is leaving because of the broken promises.
But he will continue to search for external investors in the club
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/p/plymouth_argyle/9392059.stm
Plymouth Argyle have survived an attempt by HM Revenue & Customs to be wound up in the High Court.
A winding-up petition over outstanding tax debts of £760,000 was dismissed because the amount has been paid by the League One club.
Ok this is off subject but really irritates me about the justice system. From what i can see they actually went to court today for the case to be dismissed, so that costs everybody, including the tax payer, money and ties up the court room for the amount of time it takes to "say they paid up" "OK, everybody go home." Why couldn't HMRC phone the judge and say its ok don't have to come over on Wednesday, see you in Feb when they can't pay that"
I was on Jury service recently and one of the cases I was on the victim and only prosecution witness had returned to Poland and not returned for 9 months and refused to be contacted by phone. But we still had two days of deliberation over whether a written statement was good enough and in the nd we were instructed to find the accused not guilty, could have been sorted in someones office a lot cheaper.
They're done for now surely.
Would leave them bottom with 23 points and 10 points from safety.
Good luck to them
Cash-strapped Argyle released a notice of intention to appoint an administrator in a bid to solve their financial problems on Monday.
And the Football League have, as expected, responded by hitting the struggling club with a 10-point deduction which sees them slip into the league basement.
A statement on the organisation's official website said: "The Football League can confirm that Plymouth Argyle Football Club have been deducted ten points with immediate effect.
"The sporting sanction has been implemented following receipt of formal confirmation that the club had filed a notice of intention to appoint an administrator with the High Court.
"This action is defined as an insolvency event within The League's regulations as it establishes a moratorium on creditor actions against the club
Weird !, couldn't see myself going 200 miles to support Millwall (actually wouldn't go 200 feet)
The League One outfit have appointed Brendan Guilfoyle of the P&A Partnership as their administrator.
A High Court judge is in the process of deciding whether Her Majesty's Revenue & Customs can still apply for a winding-up petition.
P & A are looking for a buyer for the cash-strapped outfit, who have already been deducted 10 points, by 17 March.
"A number of interested parties have declared an interest in acquiring the club," a statement from the administrator said.
It continued: "It is imperative that a preferred bidder is identified who can provide ongoing funding by 17 March 2011 at the latest."
"The administrators are due to meet with Plymouth City Council on Monday 7 March 2011 with a view to obtaining their assistance in securing the survival of the club."
BBC Sport understands that HMRC is concerned that without a winding-up petition being presented to Argyle, they could lose out on money owed to them by the club during the administration process.
Plymouth's board took the decision to enter administration at a meeting on Friday, having issued a 'notice of intention' to appoint an administrator on Monday, 21 February.
The 'notice of intention' protected Argyle from creditors, including HMRC, who are currently owed £300,000.
However the protection it offered only lasts for 10 days and was due to run out on Monday.
Argyle successfully dodged an HMRC winding-up petition last month, when they cleared £760,000 of tax debt.
The club's staff, who have not been paid for six weeks, issued an impassioned statement on Thursday pleading with the directors to "reach a clear, concise and workable solution" to the financial problems at Home Park
I'm pretty sure it was Guilfoyle who was the admin at Palace, there were rumours at the time he was a Charlton fan.