how sick to see Blair draped over the scum bag Gaddafi. The man gave millions to the IRA wmade Libya a terrorist training ground and now slaughtering his own people AGAIN. Mind you lets hope he plots up at Cherrie and Tonys door---scum.
Then in nano seconds TV switched to the Boy David wandering around the streets of Cairo !!! saying what a good thing it was that they banjoed the old system !!!!!!! errrrrrrr this would be the one we supported wouldnt it ? and just say that the muslim radicals get voted in over there ??? please feel free to have another wander David wont you pleassseeeeee.
someone on here posted that it was a USA conspiracy and that they did it,
i always believed that it was him due to news sources at the time but i am positive i read on here that there was evidence to the contrary.
if and when Lybia falls the ripple effct will be huge all those countries with a dictator style leader will try next and then the stability will be dangerous for all.
i dont like the way he is blaming the west after he had laid dormant for a while
[cite]Posted By: ShootersHillGuru[/cite]Serious stuff going down in the middle east. People finally trying to shake off meglomaniac dictators. China next anyone ? Now that would be scary.
Doubtful.
And I think you would be more correct to draw parallels between the Irish general election and the Croatian general election later this year. No connection whatsoever, but still closer than Libya-China.
Again in Libya it seems to be the poorest sections of society that pose the biggest threat to the regime. Middle classes can protest, but it needs the ordinary people to make it a proper revolution.
Gaddafi's response has been disgusting. No idea why I'm surprised by it, but I am. Desperation stuff. Feels like that regime is on its last legs.
Back to Egypt and there's a lot of concern that it could result in yet another military dictatorship. Mohamed ElBaradei believes that the Musim Brotherhood are a civil organisation, and if he believes that, I believe it too. We'll see how up for democracy the army really are in the coming weeks and months
I think Lockerbie was more likely to have been the Syrians and Iranians, personally. The yanks were never going to sanction bombing the shit out of them though because they backed them against Hussein when they went into Kuwait to get him out.
[cite]Posted By: ShootersHillGuru[/cite]Serious stuff going down in the middle east. People finally trying to shake off meglomaniac dictators. China next anyone ? Now that would be scary.
Doubtful.
And I think you would be more correct to draw parallels between the Irish general election and the Croatian general election later this year. No connection whatsoever, but still closer than Libya-China.
Again in Libya it seems to be the poorest sections of society that pose the biggest threat to the regime. Middle classes can protest, but it needs the ordinary people to make it a proper revolution.
Gaddafi's response has been disgusting. No idea why I'm surprised by it, but I am. Desperation stuff. Feels like that regime is on its last legs.
Back to Egypt and there's a lot of concern that it could result in yet another military dictatorship. Mohamed ElBaradei believes that the Musim Brotherhood are a civil organisation, and if he believes that, I believe it too. We'll see how up for democracy the army really are in the coming weeks and months
Not completely sure I can agree with your Irish / Croatian election analogy with my drawing a parallel between civil unrest in the middle east in order to overthrow dictatorships and the same being possible by an oppressed Chinese population. The regime will fall one day and I am sure that Chinese officials have met to discuss the possibility already.
It depends entirely on the internal economy of China. It always has and always will.
There is zero internal connection between China and Libya beyond the fact that they're both dictatorships, as Ireland and Croatia are both democracies. At least Ireland and Croatia are on the same continent.
Riots in Tibet and Xinjiang coincided with massive food inflation, and they were put down by the authorities. In many cases, brutally so. As long as the Han Chinese don't feel a need to riot (and perhaps even if they do) the regime is kept intact
The Chinese approach to capitalism and dictatorship depends on maintaining a standard of living for the average person. Keep ordinary people happy in their everyday life and they won't feel a need to overthrow the government.
[cite]Posted By: IA[/cite]It depends entirely on the internal economy of China. It always has and always will.
Yup. The current unrest in the middle east is portrayed as a desire for freedom/democracy and I'm sure people do want that, but it also has a lot to do with the recent huge increases in the world-wide price of (and therefore scarcity of) staple foods. Any society is only two meals away from a revolution as they say.
Whether dictatorial capitalism in China is sustainable long term will be an interesting lesson in economics and sociology.
I don't think I am suggesting that China is next in line in the domino effect of ordinary people casting off dictatorships but I think I do mean that Chinese nationals do not enjoy the freedoms that they can now easily identify with and aspire to. China has a history of crushing any signs of unrest but then again so did the eastern block before the whole thing fell apart. China may well not be in danger of revolution yet but it's time will no doubt come.
SHG, I hope you understand why I would draw that connection when you said "China next anyone?" Of course riots could appear in China, but they'd have no connection to the riots in the Middle East.
Fair comment, 24 Red. Democracy could be a by-product of the riots. The middle classes may care about civil rights etc, but a revolution needs the working classes, and the working classes largely care about their stomachs. That's not a value judgement, by the way. I agree with [the view I've foisted on] them that food is more important than democracy.
Wasnt it the Iranian Middle classes that sparked the revolution 30 odd years ago? ie the young educated, westernised lotAnd Tunisia recently? Not being arguementative IA was just interested in what you said above and googled it.
[cite]Posted By: RodneyCharltonTrotta[/cite]Wasnt it the Iranian Middle classes that sparked the revolution 30 odd years ago? ie the young educated, westernised lotAnd Tunisia recently? Not being arguementative IA was just interested in what you said above and googled it.
The Iranian revolution is before my time. But you're probably right. I'm pretty sure the Marxists started the revolution. I've been to an Iranian Marxist rally (it was a free trip to Paris, who am I to refuse), and they were largely, almost entirely middle class. But it was the Islamists who won out in the end. And for whatever reason, I would say Islamists are mostly working class. I could be wrong about that, but I doubt it.
It was the Egyptian middle classes and students that started the riots there, but it all took hold when the working classes joined them. I can't remember the article I got that from (too tired now), but I'll find it for you tomorrow.
Your article is very interesting, but I read the opposite to what you read. Yes, Tunisia is a wealthy country relative to the rest of the Middle East, but that doesn't say much about the composition of the rioters compared to Tunisian society as a whole. It says that the middle classes (university graduates, for example) have been wanting democracy for years, but since ordinary people were fairly well-off, their protests fell on deaf ears. As soon as their livelihoods came into question (Ben Ali promises 300,000 jobs in the second page - high unemployment?), they joined the middle class protestors, and when they did, the revolution took hold.
Middle class/students/graduates start the protests, if there's high unemployment/high inflation/low wages, then the working classes join. The revolution succeeds if and only if the working class join.
I don't think we disagree, Rodney. Sparked by the middle classes, but the middle class alone won't take down a dictatorship.
Despite my tiredness, I'm not able to sleep. I searched for that article, but I can't find it. I'm very sorry.
There are lots of articles (Example) that say poverty and unemployment were driving forces behind the Egyptian riots, and the riots didn't stop as soon as Mubarak left power(Link). These factors lead me to believe that it was poverty, not democracy, that drove the protests. Sparked by middle class and students, sure, but poverty as the main reason.
Back to Libya, the knowledge that Gaddafi has hired mercenaries to do his dirty work suggests that he no longer has the unquestioning support of the Libyan army. Some are defecting, but the soldiers who've stayed in Libya may not be willing to attack their people for Gaddafi. If this is the case, then his days must be numbered. Libya
There are reports of protests in North Korea. It's an extremely poor country, with a constant atempted stream of anti-Kim propaganda from the South and no connection to the outside world, so I wouldn't say this has anything to do with the riots in the Middle East. However, this may be a time ripe for revolution across the world wherever there is oppression, with high food prices and low employment prospects. My understanding is that Kim tends to react to civil unrest by making a show of military strength, so I guess we can expect more missile testing etc
If you heard Gaddaffi's rant he mentioned in his favour the Chinese massacre in Tien a Men square.He said that the massacre helped preserve the stability of China as a nation.Instead of being castigated by the West China was granted free trade agreements.Very foolishly and naively our greedy politicians thought that this would give us access to a market of over one billion customers.Free trade is ok between countries where workers enjoy basic,trade union,health and safety,minimum wages and hard earned worker rights which we take for granted.As soon as our industries were opened up to this unfair competition it didn't take long for the Chinese to dominate and annihilate our industrial bases.Workers and small buisness bosses are constantly being told to be more competitive with countries where child labour and ridiculously low wages are the norm.Big buisness has exploited this situation and now produces in China and exports to the home markets.In my opinion all this is grossly unfair and has resulted in the deterioration of our living standards in the Western world.It has led to the USA being in total debt to China and overall has lowered our parameters
to that of the Chinese worker.
In Europe ordinary hard working families cannot cope any more especially if they have children.Small buisnesses are going bust and the frightening thing is that there are no decent politicians at the moment that have the vision and courage and above all honesty to tackle these problems.Its all boiling up and getting very dangerous and most of it is coming from the unfair and unjust decision to grant free market and capital access to totalitarian and worker oppressive countries.
[cite]Posted By: ShootersHillGuru[/cite]Serious stuff going down in the middle east. People finally trying to shake off meglomaniac dictators. China next anyone ? Now that would be scary.
Doubtful.
And I think you would be more correct to draw parallels between the Irish general election and the Croatian general election later this year. No connection whatsoever, but still closer than Libya-China.
Again in Libya it seems to be the poorest sections of society that pose the biggest threat to the regime. Middle classes can protest, but it needs the ordinary people to make it a proper revolution.
Gaddafi's response has been disgusting. No idea why I'm surprised by it, but I am. Desperation stuff. Feels like that regime is on its last legs.
Back to Egypt and there's a lot of concern that it could result in yet another military dictatorship. Mohamed ElBaradei believes that the Musim Brotherhood are a civil organisation, and if he believes that, I believe it too. We'll see how up for democracy the army really are in the coming weeks and months
I'm still hopful that ElBaradei will have a big part to play as Egypt moves forward and his comment earlier this week was interesting ... especially as many seem to think that speedy elections are important to stabilise the country:
If we go too fast, if we organize elections in four or five months, the revolution would be over, the old regime will perpetuate itself in another guise
Comments
Then in nano seconds TV switched to the Boy David wandering around the streets of Cairo !!! saying what a good thing it was that they banjoed the old system !!!!!!! errrrrrrr this would be the one we supported wouldnt it ? and just say that the muslim radicals get voted in over there ??? please feel free to have another wander David wont you pleassseeeeee.
Sounds like the pilots have more common than him, they are crashing their planes and evacuating themselves into Egypt in their fighter planes.
What on earth is going to happen here, it really does not look good
Newspaper sources are claiming to have fresh evidence that he ordered the Lockerbie boming
I would imagine they have had that evidence for some time but did not think it politically 'right' to release it before now
i always believed that it was him due to news sources at the time but i am positive i read on here that there was evidence to the contrary.
if and when Lybia falls the ripple effct will be huge all those countries with a dictator style leader will try next and then the stability will be dangerous for all.
i dont like the way he is blaming the west after he had laid dormant for a while
Doubtful.
And I think you would be more correct to draw parallels between the Irish general election and the Croatian general election later this year. No connection whatsoever, but still closer than Libya-China.
Again in Libya it seems to be the poorest sections of society that pose the biggest threat to the regime. Middle classes can protest, but it needs the ordinary people to make it a proper revolution.
Gaddafi's response has been disgusting. No idea why I'm surprised by it, but I am. Desperation stuff. Feels like that regime is on its last legs.
Back to Egypt and there's a lot of concern that it could result in yet another military dictatorship. Mohamed ElBaradei believes that the Musim Brotherhood are a civil organisation, and if he believes that, I believe it too. We'll see how up for democracy the army really are in the coming weeks and months
Not completely sure I can agree with your Irish / Croatian election analogy with my drawing a parallel between civil unrest in the middle east in order to overthrow dictatorships and the same being possible by an oppressed Chinese population. The regime will fall one day and I am sure that Chinese officials have met to discuss the possibility already.
There is zero internal connection between China and Libya beyond the fact that they're both dictatorships, as Ireland and Croatia are both democracies. At least Ireland and Croatia are on the same continent.
Riots in Tibet and Xinjiang coincided with massive food inflation, and they were put down by the authorities. In many cases, brutally so. As long as the Han Chinese don't feel a need to riot (and perhaps even if they do) the regime is kept intact
The Chinese approach to capitalism and dictatorship depends on maintaining a standard of living for the average person. Keep ordinary people happy in their everyday life and they won't feel a need to overthrow the government.
Yup. The current unrest in the middle east is portrayed as a desire for freedom/democracy and I'm sure people do want that, but it also has a lot to do with the recent huge increases in the world-wide price of (and therefore scarcity of) staple foods. Any society is only two meals away from a revolution as they say.
Whether dictatorial capitalism in China is sustainable long term will be an interesting lesson in economics and sociology.
Fair comment, 24 Red. Democracy could be a by-product of the riots. The middle classes may care about civil rights etc, but a revolution needs the working classes, and the working classes largely care about their stomachs. That's not a value judgement, by the way. I agree with [the view I've foisted on] them that food is more important than democracy.
http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2011/01/18/a_middle_class_revolution
The Iranian revolution is before my time. But you're probably right. I'm pretty sure the Marxists started the revolution. I've been to an Iranian Marxist rally (it was a free trip to Paris, who am I to refuse), and they were largely, almost entirely middle class. But it was the Islamists who won out in the end. And for whatever reason, I would say Islamists are mostly working class. I could be wrong about that, but I doubt it.
It was the Egyptian middle classes and students that started the riots there, but it all took hold when the working classes joined them. I can't remember the article I got that from (too tired now), but I'll find it for you tomorrow.
Your article is very interesting, but I read the opposite to what you read. Yes, Tunisia is a wealthy country relative to the rest of the Middle East, but that doesn't say much about the composition of the rioters compared to Tunisian society as a whole. It says that the middle classes (university graduates, for example) have been wanting democracy for years, but since ordinary people were fairly well-off, their protests fell on deaf ears. As soon as their livelihoods came into question (Ben Ali promises 300,000 jobs in the second page - high unemployment?), they joined the middle class protestors, and when they did, the revolution took hold.
Middle class/students/graduates start the protests, if there's high unemployment/high inflation/low wages, then the working classes join. The revolution succeeds if and only if the working class join.
I don't think we disagree, Rodney. Sparked by the middle classes, but the middle class alone won't take down a dictatorship.
There are lots of articles (Example) that say poverty and unemployment were driving forces behind the Egyptian riots, and the riots didn't stop as soon as Mubarak left power(Link). These factors lead me to believe that it was poverty, not democracy, that drove the protests. Sparked by middle class and students, sure, but poverty as the main reason.
Back to Libya, the knowledge that Gaddafi has hired mercenaries to do his dirty work suggests that he no longer has the unquestioning support of the Libyan army. Some are defecting, but the soldiers who've stayed in Libya may not be willing to attack their people for Gaddafi. If this is the case, then his days must be numbered. Libya
There are reports of protests in North Korea. It's an extremely poor country, with a constant atempted stream of anti-Kim propaganda from the South and no connection to the outside world, so I wouldn't say this has anything to do with the riots in the Middle East. However, this may be a time ripe for revolution across the world wherever there is oppression, with high food prices and low employment prospects. My understanding is that Kim tends to react to civil unrest by making a show of military strength, so I guess we can expect more missile testing etc
to that of the Chinese worker.
In Europe ordinary hard working families cannot cope any more especially if they have children.Small buisnesses are going bust and the frightening thing is that there are no decent politicians at the moment that have the vision and courage and above all honesty to tackle these problems.Its all boiling up and getting very dangerous and most of it is coming from the unfair and unjust decision to grant free market and capital access to totalitarian and worker oppressive countries.
I'm still hopful that ElBaradei will have a big part to play as Egypt moves forward and his comment earlier this week was interesting ... especially as many seem to think that speedy elections are important to stabilise the country:
If we go too fast, if we organize elections in four or five months, the revolution would be over, the old regime will perpetuate itself in another guise
Just watching this on al Jazeera, they've been very informative right through this.