Were we really soft touches last season? Our defence was pretty solid and we lost very few games all in all. People bang on about the Millwall games and the Northwich Vics games, which were obvious lows and hurt the fans, but is it fair to use them a yard-stick for the whole season? If it is why are those 3 games so much more relevant than the pummling we gave the best side in the division at the Valley, the 8 wins at the start of the season or the game at Elland Rd in which gave Leeds as stern a test as they had all season? There were plenty of late points salvaged and come from behind wins to show that there was heart in the team too, imo - no game better illustrated that than the 9 men vs Swindon which was not the only time we came away with points despite a numerical disadvantage. You could even argue that the only big game in which we truly failed in was Millwall away as we were unbeaten against Norwich, Leeds & Huddersfield and only lost 1 of 4 games vs Swindon. I think it's fair to say that they gave it their all in the second play-off leg too.
All successful teams need 3 things: character, defensive solidity, attacking flair. I think we could match teams for Character and defence but we were sadly lacking the player to stick it in the onion bag in tight games. If we'd had BWP playing alongside Burton, I think we may well have won away at Leeds and at home to Norwich as well as other games - away at Wallsall is one that has always stuck in my mind that was there for the taking for the want of a goal poacher. We'd surely have buried one on the many chances we had to seal the play-off semi too. I think knowing we struggled to put away chances there were times he chose to hold what we had instead of chasing something more and risking losing everything - that mentality never plays too well with fans but it's a style which has served managers of less talented teams well through the years, except for a handfull of season when w had the like's of Mendonca, Bent, Di Canio Curbs managed things in much the same way.
The fact we did not have that striker isn't, imo, Parky's fault - goalscorers always cost money and we just did not have that and without that luxury I think Parky got everything it is reasonable to expect from that team - 4th place, just outside the top 2, in a very tight and very strong division (lets not forget how well the promoted 3 have faired this season) and with one exception we gave each of our promotion rivals tough afternoons whenever we played them.
Parky's downfall was this season. He struggled manfully to assemble a decent squad on very little cash. I think overall he did a good job of this in the circumstances, but after a steady start and a real purple patch, we expected things to push on and us to become a balanced and coherent looking team who would give teams a good game - Parky himself said he expected us to get better as the season wore on. We went backwards through December though and were very poor at a very poor time for Parky's career prospects. I think somewhat unfairly he never had total backing from the crowd and I think a significant minority were never going to give him any credit - if he had got us up I think some would have just kept quiet rather that applaud him. For that reason I think he had to go for the good of club unity.
He was getting roughly what there was to get out of this sqaud out of it though - as Powell is finding out it's still lacking a few key cogs and as such is inconsistent. At it's best this team is a top 6 side, at it's worst it's botom half potential, I'm therefore neither surprised or angry by the last couple of results - I beleieve we could just as easily win the next four as we could lose them.
What I do find worrying is there is certian rudderless feel about us. We're loose tactically, positionally and defensively - all things I think Parky worked hard to improve. The flip side of that is, when it clicks, we look more threatening in attack than we have for a while but we also often look a bit lacking in ideas and our attacks focus on someone breaking through with a dribble or a sharp chance falling to BWP. There doesn't appear to be clear pattern of play about us very often and I think Powell needs to work out exactly how he wants us to play and get on with making them do it.
It will take time, and I'm not in anyway getting on Powell's back but I think it has to be acknowledged that we seem to lack a bit of direction at the moment - we're starting to drift a bit in the way we did 3 years ago after Reidy was sold and Pardew started to try a different system and 11 every week .
As KHA said Parky's sides had no recognisable style except get it forward early to players without the stature or skill (Burton excepted) to hold it up and bring others into play. I have yet to see what style CP is trying to play - he may want us to play on the floor but the players are struggling to do so, and often the ball ends back with Robbie to launch forward. He has send sides out to play 4-3-3 without an obvious plan of a) how to play the front three in, and b) a way of stopping the oppo overrunning our midfield when possession is lost. He has time on his side, but the stated plan is working with this squad, not buying a new one and the single area he has to improve is our defence who are conceding nearly half a goal a game more than last year's far from impressive rearguard.
Good article. We need to be patient and Powell shouldn't be judged until he's had a full season with his own squad. Let him build his squad and work on changing things around, just as Poyet did at Brighton.
Agree with AFKA on Eccleston. I can't see a way to fit him and BWP into the team from the start of games. Like AFKA said, BWP is rightly picking himself. I don't see them as a partnership, I can't see them both playing in a 4-3-3 either. BWP can't really play one of the wide roles, but the central striker in that formation needs to be someone that can challenge in the air and hold up the ball - even if you play passing football on the ground.
As for his best position, I think he's definitely a striker but Abbott, a Burton or Iwelumo would suit both him and BWP better as a partner. They're too similar and their weaknesses when playing together put even more pressure on Semedo and Racon (especially if we play 4-4-2 with two wingers).
[cite]Posted By: Dave Rudd[/cite]
I'm OK with a lot of what you say, but why do you see the inclusion of Ecclestone as a problem?
Because (to me), his natural position appears to be that of a 2nd striker. But we saw 1st hand that his partnership with BWP had no gel to it as BWP won't / can't play the role he needs to play off, and BWP is rightly picking himself at the minute.
So he is being played wide, which isn't his natural game because in this league you need to do a hell of a lot defensively in those positions and that isn't his natural instinct. We then tweak the formation on paper so its meant to be a 433, but ultimately to me it leaves us exposed at right midfield. The knock on effort is Francis becoming exposed, and the impact it has on Semedo / Racon.
The Semedo / Racon partnership has worked best and looked effective in the games they have Bailey / Jackson on left, and Sam / Wagstaff on right; relatively disciplined up and downers on one side, and another playing slightly more narrow on the other. Throw a defensively indiscipled Kyel Reid, Ecclestone or Martin into those slots and its no coincidence we then start getting stretched across the middle and Semdo and Racon lose their individual battles (i actually think like you we need to change the midfield combo, but i'm basing this on what i've seen over the last 18 months).
I think Ecclestone is being consistently played because we have to justify the loan. I think he is going to be a good player, but like Martin i'm still not convinced what his best position is, and i'm not sure we've seen him playing in it.
I agree, Ecclestone is a problem. For me he is an alternative to BWP - an on the shoulders striker who will get you a goal or 2 if played of a big man who will flick it on, hold it up and link with the midfield. I thinkhe's suited to the wide forward role in a 4-3-3 but i think we need to keep that in hand as an option for games we're chasing, not from the start and, again, you need that bigger physical presence to act as a pivot.
Having signed BWP, Ecclestone has become a bit of a waste of a loan really, imo. He's a good player but that loan slot would be bettre used in other areas imo. Letting Abbot go has just meant we need to use another slot on another forward too - I know Abbott is limited but his last two games hinted he could do a job for the rest of the year if his confidence could be restored so I just can't make it make snese to let him leave knowing he'd need replacing. That will leave 1 loan slot which means choosing between a midfielder and defender - both which are desparately needed imo.
[cite]Posted By: Dave Rudd[/cite]
I'm OK with a lot of what you say, but why do you see the inclusion of Ecclestone as a problem?
Because (to me), his natural position appears to be that of a 2nd striker. But we saw 1st hand that his partnership with BWP had no gel to it as BWP won't / can't play the role he needs to play off, and BWP is rightly picking himself at the minute.
So he is being played wide, which isn't his natural game because in this league you need to do a hell of a lot defensively in those positions and that isn't his natural instinct. We then tweak the formation on paper so its meant to be a 433, but ultimately to me it leaves us exposed at right midfield. The knock on effort is Francis becoming exposed, and the impact it has on Semedo / Racon.
The Semedo / Racon partnership has worked best and looked effective in the games they have Bailey / Jackson on left, and Sam / Wagstaff on right; relatively disciplined up and downers on one side, and another playing slightly more narrow on the other. Throw a defensively indiscipled Kyel Reid, Ecclestone or Martin into those slots and its no coincidence we then start getting stretched across the middle and Semdo and Racon lose their individual battles (i actually think like you we need to change the midfield combo, but i'm basing this on what i've seen over the last 18 months).
I think Ecclestone is being consistently played because we have to justify the loan. I think he is going to be a good player, but like Martin i'm still not convinced what his best position is, and i'm not sure we've seen him playing in it.
I agree and very well put AFKA.
And Eccleston takes off down another avenue.
The activity in the transfer market since the takeover has left me scratching my head. Who signed Eccles? Not Powell as we had even spoken to him. Parky might have had him on a wanted listed or was it Jimenez.
Since the TO we've signed BWP and Bessone but since them both arriving early on no more loans. The wait to ensure players were available at Old Trafford if we got there made sense but why the delay now. OK, we've missed out (Hobbs to Hull perhaps) but if he wanted a CH who was 2nd, 3rd, etc on the list and why haven't they come in? Puzzling.
I see it a bit differently and would contemplate playing him as the attacking midfielder we so sorely lack.
You can set football teams up in two contrasting ways ... decide on a style of play and then try to make the players fit that style ... or ... settle on a style that plays to the strengths of the players you have. That's what I'd do with Ecclestone, and what I would have done with Martin.
Put Semedo (and maybe even McCormack too) in behind Ecclestone, with clearly-defined roles for all three of them (Semedo - protect the defence: McCormack - chase down the opposition, get in their face for 90 minutes then give the ball to someone who can play: Ecclestone - run at the opposing defence and slip the ball through to Wright-Phillips when the opportunity presents itself). On top of that, generally avoid trying to play two out-and-out wingers and play the ball through midfield rather than lumping it up to the target man we don't have (are you listening, Doherty?) and you have the basis for a style of play that fits our current playing squad. Not saying that we'll win the league this way, but we'll stop getting over-run in midfield and that will bring its own rewards.
I understand if he missed out on his top two targets but surely he or whoever is making the signings had other targets to go after as back-ups?
I stated before the Notts County game that I didn't think we could afford to wait till after Carlisle to bring someone in which now seems to have been the case. I'm worried going into Saturday that we still won't have added anyone.
[cite]Posted By: dickplumb[/cite]I know it is simplistic but if we had held on at Carrow Road for a 1-0 win instead of conceding a Grant Holt injury time winner, which looked like a foul on Elliott. And we had beaten Millwall at the Valley when we were 3-2 up and they had a player sent off, we would now be playing a season in the Championship and this conversation would be redundant.It was a good squad last season but if we had a Grant Holt playing for us i am sure we would have been promoted. The fine lines of football.
If PP had been able to get the team to take advantage at the end of the season when Leeds were doing everything they could to give us get 2nd place we wouldn't have needed the playoffs...
And speaking as one who went to most of the away games last season, if the opposition had taken their chances on the numerous occasions when we were the worst team but managed to come away with points, we wouldn't have got into the playoffs.
And if Swindon had finished off even a few of their numerous chances when they totally battered us in the 1st leg then we wouldn't have been within 10 minutes of Wembley.
Lots and if's and buts and we can all select the ones that suit our arguement..
My problem isnt with Powell, he is doing perfectly well for a new manager at a club in a sticky period. I wont get on his back because he is inexperienced and is bound to make mistakes.
My problem is with the owners for the timing of Parkinsons sacking and their changing of strategy from one day to the next. First Parky was doing a good job, then he was sacked, promotion is vital this season, then its not. As I said countless times at the time, it smacked of a PR exercise to get the fans on board. Only a moron wouldnt want Chris Powell in charge of Charlton at some point, but for me not now, we were ticking along quite nicely albeit with the odd shit result, he did pretty well with some very average players. I personally think he should have been given to the end of the season to get us up, and I would have rated our chances similiar to last year - Play Offs and a lottery, I am not convinced we will get there now.
[cite]Posted By: Dave Rudd[/cite]Interesting comments on Ecclestone.
I see it a bit differently and would contemplate playing him as the attacking midfielder we so sorely lack.
You can set football teams up in two contrasting ways ... decide on a style of play and then try to make the players fit that style ... or ... settle on a style that plays to the strengths of the players you have. That's what I'd do with Ecclestone, and what I would have done with Martin.
Put Semedo (and maybe even McCormack too) in behind Ecclestone, with clearly-defined roles for all three of them (Semedo - protect the defence: McCormack - chase down the opposition, get in their face for 90 minutes then give the ball to someone who can play: Ecclestone - run at the opposing defence and slip the ball through to Wright-Phillips when the opportunity presents itself). On top of that, generally avoid trying to play two out-and-out wingers and play the ball through midfield rather than lumping it up to the target man we don't have (are you listening, Doherty?) and you have the basis for a style of play that fits our current playing squad. Not saying that we'll win the league this way, but we'll stop getting over-run in midfield and that will bring its own rewards.
not a bad shout - you have to get those players with ability, on the ball as much as possible and i used to suggest putting martin in the middle because i just couldn't see anybody else in the squad having anywhere near enough footballing ability / craft. Eccles might be worth a try - with oxo and semedo behind him and jackson supporting from wide he may be able to link up with BWP and Anyinsah quite well - lets face it, its worth a try coz there's no way oxo or racon are going to create anything.
That's esentially a variation of the 4-3-3 we played vs Exeter, all that happened in that game is they played down the sides of our midfield and isolated the full backs 2 on 1.
If you going to play someone in the hole they need to be able to link play and ideally pick a pass or two - Danny Murphy and Di Canio are the two we've had who've succesfully played in that position. Ecceletsone is a front runner imo, he want to try and get in behind or run at isolated defenders - he'sgame rvolves around receiveing the ball in those advanced positions, not being the one passing those balls. We don't really have that player in the squad, which has been one of our problems for a while.
[cite]Posted By: Exiled_Addick[/cite]That's esentially a variation of the 4-3-3 we played vs Exeter, all that happened in that game is they played down the sides of our midfield and isolated the full backs 2 on 1.
If you going to play someone in the hole they need to be able to link play and ideally pick a pass or two - Danny Murphy and Di Canio are the two we've had who've succesfully played in that position. Ecceletsone is a front runner imo, he want to try and get in behind or run at isolated defenders - he'sgame rvolves around receiveing the ball in those advanced positions, not being the one passing those balls. We don't really have that player in the squad, which has been one of our problems for a while.
Spot on.
We got the goal scorer we needed in BWP but we still need that passing midfielder and the dominant centre half. Jackson might still be the first if we can't bring someone else in. I think Jack Hobbs would have been the other if he hadn't gone to Hull. Who else is out there? Martin Rowlands has gone to Millwall so Wilson from Bolton who did well for Swindon last year?
Regardless as AFKA said we look better with 442 with one wide player playing narrowly and both being willing to work up and down the line.
No time to read all the posts on this thread but wanted to say what a superb article, AFKA ! How do you do it ?
Regardless of whether anyone else has mentioned it,I feel one of the main differences between last season's squad and this, is a certain Mr N Bailey.
Much maligned at times by some on here but a bullish, fearless competitor...no doubt about that. What formation would SCP be employing on Saturday if he had the current suspects PLUS Nicky in his squad , and would his inclusion make it a more likely to win side ?
Quote Dick Plum #6 "I know it is simplistic but if we had held on at Carrow Road for a 1-0 win instead of conceding a Grant Holt injury time winner, which looked like a foul on Elliott. And we had beaten Millwall at the Valley when we were 3-2 up and they had a player sent off, we would now be playing a season in the Championship and this conversation would be redundant.It was a good squad last season but if we had a Grant Holt playing for us i am sure we would have been promoted. The fine lines of football".
Being even more simplistic. Just scoring one goal at Elland Road would have seen us up!
If I put my conclusions first, I am in the "Henry", camp in that I believe that in team affairs, the whole is not greater than the sum of the parts. I believe that Chris can get this group of players, playing better and with a winning mentality.
I am more concerned that blame seems to be bandied around far too much. Is the previous Board to blame? Is/was Parky to blame? Is CP now to blame? Can we blame this player or that player? Is it the lack of pace in central defence that is to blame? Do we blame a lack of creativity in midfield? Can we blame Eccleston for failing to play effectively alongside BWP? Are we as fans to blame for getting too quickly on the backs of the team when things go wrong?
In short its blame, blame, blame.
What does a blame culture signal? It signals failure, massive failure and collective guilt that flows from it.
It is not a new problem, this has been part of our demise for a number of years.
Collectively the clubs mentality has to change, from board, to management, to fans before the iceberg spotted Titanic that is this club in recent years, can be steered away from disaster and back to a safe and forward heading. Responsibility and acceptance of where we are is the first thing that is required. Beyond that a winning mentality based on a cohesive team is an absolute priority.
I believe despite the poor results of late, that progress has been made.
The first thing to change is arresting the failed feeling that surrounded the club up to the start of this year.
A new Board, with a new vision, has done that. They have swept away the old failed management team and brought in a new exciting manager. They have shown physical signs of renewal by replacing the screen, and they have shown intent to invest the opportunity costs of funding tickets for £5 for the Exeter game. This is good as far as I am concerned.
I feel sorry for Parky but he was associated with failure and under-achievement and that had to change. I don't blame him but he did have responsibility for what happened on the pitch and he had to be judged on that basis.
Chris Powell now has, in the short term, to make a silk purse out of a sows ear. I don't think he has done this yet, but I wont blame him if he doesn't achieve this. There is talent in the team but an awful lot of it is not performing to a consistent level to make a real difference to the rather stuttering season that has prevailed since the beginning of November. There is also great imbalance in the team/squad. He has to have time to turn this around.
There may be a couple of new loan signings but essentially the squad, with the addition of BWP, (and the injured Bessone) is the one he inherited. As fans, we must accept that. As somebody said earlier this week on the "pink oboe" list, in the end "you can't polish a turd". Its a bit harsh and we do have some talent but there is no point in expecting miracles with this team. Chris just needs to find a balance which gets this team playing better than the sum of its parts.
Please, please, please, let us throw out the blame game and get behind Chris and the team. He'll win through for us anyway in my view but it will be much easier if we can get out of the habit of slagging off the players and the manager especially during the game.
I believe that in team affairs, the whole is not greater than the sum of the parts.
In short its blame, blame, blame.
Excellent post Bing and worthy of an article in its own right. Looking forward not just raking over the same old "who's to blame".
What I thought Carlisle were was a well organised team who knew their roles, had a game plan, stuck to it even when they went behind, got the break (the first very fortunate deflected goal) and then pushed on. As a team they were greater than the sum of their parts, which as Bing has said before, we have rarely been.
It's all very well saying "we were crap against Carlisle" and then starting to point the finger but what can we learn from them? What did they do well that we didn't and could we adapt that to our players?
We are here and we need to start working to get out of here. It is possible. Other teams and Clubs have managed it. As someone texted me today "it will be a long road back but it will happen".
We can say a lot of ifs. If we held on at carrow road. If we scored against Leeds at elland road. If we held on to the 4-3 against millsmall. But the teams around us can all say exactly the same. They all let in last minute goals to lose them points.
Well said bingaddick if you look at the games with Chrissy Powell in charge you will see that there have been periods where Powell has tried to change how the team plays and a number of different tactics have been used and there have even been changes in tactics during the game. And there are also signs that there are attempts to change the team's attitude and motivation. Admittedly some of these changes have worked and some haven't - but Rome isn't rebuilt in a day.
All this what if talk really just demonstrates that the margins between success and failure are very fine - what if 1 or 2 of our shots against Exeter in the 1st half had gone in, what if Jenkinson had hit the ball low and scored a second against Carlisle - my guess is the results would have been different and the vast majority would be happy. The difference is that the good teams have the motivation to generate their own luck - how many times did Leeds score in the last 5 minutes last season, why do ManU always see to get late winners?
a good midfielder or 2 will be the catalyst to become a team greater than the sum of its parts rather than the other way round which it is at present. If one good thing has come out of the last month, this belief that Semedo and Racon are quality players playing in a division or two below themselves seems to be abating. They are the key problem in my book and the quicker they are replaced, the quicker we can turn this ongoing slide around. (keep Semedo in the squad and bring himn in and out as the need arises but the quicker this happens the quickewr we'll stop scratching our heads as to why the whole thing just doesn't gel)
I already expressed my views under the “Ooh Ah was right thread” so will try repeat myself only a little but the many comments on recent performances, managerial & coaching changes, player inadequacies for some odd reason remind me of the Eric Morecambe line to Andre Previn: “I am playing all the right notes sunshine (pause) Granted they may not necessarily be in the right order”.
Most of us accepted the signings of the last 2 yrs seemed to have some merit. Some may have been border line but there were few howls of derision when they were signed – such manifestation has only come recently when some of them have tried to perform. For many we do have “the right notes”. I would argue this year we do not. Either way the notes are certainly not being played in the right order.
Noting the financial straits under which it was assembled the current squad is not “fit for purpose” – if the purpose was to secure promotion. Sit down with a blue print of a squad plan designed to achieve promotion and then match the range of our player abilities & styles. You WILL offer Powell a shoulder to cry on. There are glaring deficiencies across the squad. For brevity I will list 4: • Who starts the season without a recognized left back? • Who constructs a promotion squad with one experienced keeper? • Who sets Semedo as a midfield lynchpin with no back up and without acquiring creative, attacking, passing, competitive box to box midfielders to complement his skills? • Who starts a season with no identifiable “forward” outlet? Employing 4 possible but limited options
Probably nobody by choice! The squad is a mixture of “make do & mend”. It is all PP could do. The squad has no discernable style or pattern. It has some talent and if the ball falls the right way it can do a job but if challenged simply seems unable/ unsure how to compete. Work their limitations and we are surely the easiest League1 team to shut down – the only feature many League 1 teams have to offer.
Watching the County game was scary. Players showed so little comprehension of how to create space, play off & turn defenders, play the channels, stretch the play or work triangles it was almost as if some had never been coached their entire career. It was hard to identify any thought process being employed at all.
We all know players at this level have limitations. Everybody seeks to ensure a balanced squad where players are able to complement and compete with each other. We palpably do not have that balance. Criticize Powell if you must but try as he might to “get all the notes in the right order” he does not at this point have “all of the right notes” and only a very limited opportunity to correct such omission.
Powell’s pedigree is mainly about constructive, passing football. I fear this is may in the short term be beyond the technical ability available to him. He has however very few options. No hard tackling or strong running midfield players to contest control of the game, no target man to bypass midfield, little threat out wide to turn opposing defences.
Getting “the notes in the right order” with this lot is going to be a long job. I part expect things might get worse in the short term. I think I will start looking for the ear plugs.
Seems like one or two of us have developed a little more patience since those earlier days.
If we treat a football season as a "project", you set a target at the outset and you then estimate the resources and budget you need to reach that target. At various points during the lifecycle of the project those estimates can be revised and possibly the target is revised too - the closer you get to the end of the project, the more accurate they should be. As a Project Manager, I really hated my earlier estimates being used as a weapon to beat me with. It's all very well having targets, but to acheive them you have to have the right resources and budget, and even then things may not go to plan.
Parky was not given the right resources and budget, was seen as a failure by the new owners and was sacked. We now have a new manager who has been set different targets and (we hope) will be given a much better budget and resources for the 2011-12 "project". So, I think it is fair enough for some of us to revise our earlier estimates for this season.
I think the previous thread that I provided a link to started around the time of Powell's appointment, not the start of this season.
I remember reading things along the lines of 'Parkinson left us in 5th place, the new man has money, so the minimum expectation this season must be promotion'.
[cite]Posted By: Dave Rudd[/cite]I think the previous thread that I provided a link to started around the time of Powell's appointment, not the start of this season.
I remember reading things along the lines of 'Parkinson left us in 5th place, the new man has money, so the minimum expectation this season must be promotion'.
Yes i remember that as well Dave.Its funny how the goalposts have been moved.
[cite]Posted By: Dave Rudd[/cite]I think the previous thread that I provided a link to started around the time of Powell's appointment, not the start of this season.
I remember reading things along the lines of 'Parkinson left us in 5th place, the new man has money, so the minimum expectation this season must be promotion'.
Yes i remember that as well Dave.Its funny how the goalposts have been moved.
Not really, the boards expectations clearly changed.
Under Parky, we needed promotion to keep the club going.
New board came in, still expected promotion, that seemed to be their reason for sacking Parky.
Then they chose Powell, and as someone new to management they wanted to give him time. The board and Powell also talked about longer term plans like playing good football, bringing through young players, improving the players we have. It all takes time.
I don't really see a problem with expectations changing depending on who the manager is. We could have gone for an experienced manager 20 years older than Powell. That would have been a more short term appointment. It would have been about results over attractive football and building a squad for the long term.
CP is a rookie manager. He will made mistakes. Most new managers come in with an idealistic approach of what system they want to use and how they want to play. He will have to adapt according to the players he has available, and is probably already doing so.
If the players are not suited to his ethos, he will have to change them, (see Gus Poyet - Brighton). This won't happen until the summer.
So those of you expecting instant success, unlucky, and try not "to spit the dummy out" too often. The last 4 games should tell you that the current squad is not good enough, especially in 2 important areas, Central Defence & Central Midfield - the spine of the team. CP can't turn water into wine, but will be able to change it around when the opportunity arises. He has already make one good signing in BWP.
Those of you who attended the Carlisle game - full marks for supporting your team through thick and thin. Without you, the club would be close to a Luton Town scenario. Keep being optimistic about the future and always remind the club, when the £5 tickets are dished out and the opera singer appears, that you were there on cold Tuesday evening against Carlisle Utd.
[cite]Posted By: Dave Rudd[/cite]I think the previous thread that I provided a link to started around the time of Powell's appointment, not the start of this season.
I remember reading things along the lines of 'Parkinson left us in 5th place, the new man has money, so the minimum expectation this season must be promotion'.
Yes i remember that as well Dave.Its funny how the goalposts have been moved.
Not really, the boards expectations clearly changed.
I'm not referring to the Board's expectations ... I'm referring to those expressed (by us) on the previous thread.
Comments
All successful teams need 3 things: character, defensive solidity, attacking flair. I think we could match teams for Character and defence but we were sadly lacking the player to stick it in the onion bag in tight games. If we'd had BWP playing alongside Burton, I think we may well have won away at Leeds and at home to Norwich as well as other games - away at Wallsall is one that has always stuck in my mind that was there for the taking for the want of a goal poacher. We'd surely have buried one on the many chances we had to seal the play-off semi too. I think knowing we struggled to put away chances there were times he chose to hold what we had instead of chasing something more and risking losing everything - that mentality never plays too well with fans but it's a style which has served managers of less talented teams well through the years, except for a handfull of season when w had the like's of Mendonca, Bent, Di Canio Curbs managed things in much the same way.
The fact we did not have that striker isn't, imo, Parky's fault - goalscorers always cost money and we just did not have that and without that luxury I think Parky got everything it is reasonable to expect from that team - 4th place, just outside the top 2, in a very tight and very strong division (lets not forget how well the promoted 3 have faired this season) and with one exception we gave each of our promotion rivals tough afternoons whenever we played them.
Parky's downfall was this season. He struggled manfully to assemble a decent squad on very little cash. I think overall he did a good job of this in the circumstances, but after a steady start and a real purple patch, we expected things to push on and us to become a balanced and coherent looking team who would give teams a good game - Parky himself said he expected us to get better as the season wore on. We went backwards through December though and were very poor at a very poor time for Parky's career prospects. I think somewhat unfairly he never had total backing from the crowd and I think a significant minority were never going to give him any credit - if he had got us up I think some would have just kept quiet rather that applaud him. For that reason I think he had to go for the good of club unity.
He was getting roughly what there was to get out of this sqaud out of it though - as Powell is finding out it's still lacking a few key cogs and as such is inconsistent. At it's best this team is a top 6 side, at it's worst it's botom half potential, I'm therefore neither surprised or angry by the last couple of results - I beleieve we could just as easily win the next four as we could lose them.
What I do find worrying is there is certian rudderless feel about us. We're loose tactically, positionally and defensively - all things I think Parky worked hard to improve. The flip side of that is, when it clicks, we look more threatening in attack than we have for a while but we also often look a bit lacking in ideas and our attacks focus on someone breaking through with a dribble or a sharp chance falling to BWP. There doesn't appear to be clear pattern of play about us very often and I think Powell needs to work out exactly how he wants us to play and get on with making them do it.
It will take time, and I'm not in anyway getting on Powell's back but I think it has to be acknowledged that we seem to lack a bit of direction at the moment - we're starting to drift a bit in the way we did 3 years ago after Reidy was sold and Pardew started to try a different system and 11 every week .
Agree with AFKA on Eccleston. I can't see a way to fit him and BWP into the team from the start of games. Like AFKA said, BWP is rightly picking himself. I don't see them as a partnership, I can't see them both playing in a 4-3-3 either. BWP can't really play one of the wide roles, but the central striker in that formation needs to be someone that can challenge in the air and hold up the ball - even if you play passing football on the ground.
As for his best position, I think he's definitely a striker but Abbott, a Burton or Iwelumo would suit both him and BWP better as a partner. They're too similar and their weaknesses when playing together put even more pressure on Semedo and Racon (especially if we play 4-4-2 with two wingers).
I agree, Ecclestone is a problem. For me he is an alternative to BWP - an on the shoulders striker who will get you a goal or 2 if played of a big man who will flick it on, hold it up and link with the midfield. I thinkhe's suited to the wide forward role in a 4-3-3 but i think we need to keep that in hand as an option for games we're chasing, not from the start and, again, you need that bigger physical presence to act as a pivot.
Having signed BWP, Ecclestone has become a bit of a waste of a loan really, imo. He's a good player but that loan slot would be bettre used in other areas imo. Letting Abbot go has just meant we need to use another slot on another forward too - I know Abbott is limited but his last two games hinted he could do a job for the rest of the year if his confidence could be restored so I just can't make it make snese to let him leave knowing he'd need replacing. That will leave 1 loan slot which means choosing between a midfielder and defender - both which are desparately needed imo.
I agree and very well put AFKA.
And Eccleston takes off down another avenue.
The activity in the transfer market since the takeover has left me scratching my head. Who signed Eccles? Not Powell as we had even spoken to him. Parky might have had him on a wanted listed or was it Jimenez.
Since the TO we've signed BWP and Bessone but since them both arriving early on no more loans. The wait to ensure players were available at Old Trafford if we got there made sense but why the delay now. OK, we've missed out (Hobbs to Hull perhaps) but if he wanted a CH who was 2nd, 3rd, etc on the list and why haven't they come in? Puzzling.
I see it a bit differently and would contemplate playing him as the attacking midfielder we so sorely lack.
You can set football teams up in two contrasting ways ... decide on a style of play and then try to make the players fit that style ... or ... settle on a style that plays to the strengths of the players you have. That's what I'd do with Ecclestone, and what I would have done with Martin.
Put Semedo (and maybe even McCormack too) in behind Ecclestone, with clearly-defined roles for all three of them (Semedo - protect the defence: McCormack - chase down the opposition, get in their face for 90 minutes then give the ball to someone who can play: Ecclestone - run at the opposing defence and slip the ball through to Wright-Phillips when the opportunity presents itself). On top of that, generally avoid trying to play two out-and-out wingers and play the ball through midfield rather than lumping it up to the target man we don't have (are you listening, Doherty?) and you have the basis for a style of play that fits our current playing squad. Not saying that we'll win the league this way, but we'll stop getting over-run in midfield and that will bring its own rewards.
I understand if he missed out on his top two targets but surely he or whoever is making the signings had other targets to go after as back-ups?
I stated before the Notts County game that I didn't think we could afford to wait till after Carlisle to bring someone in which now seems to have been the case. I'm worried going into Saturday that we still won't have added anyone.
If PP had been able to get the team to take advantage at the end of the season when Leeds were doing everything they could to give us get 2nd place we wouldn't have needed the playoffs...
And speaking as one who went to most of the away games last season, if the opposition had taken their chances on the numerous occasions when we were the worst team but managed to come away with points, we wouldn't have got into the playoffs.
And if Swindon had finished off even a few of their numerous chances when they totally battered us in the 1st leg then we wouldn't have been within 10 minutes of Wembley.
Lots and if's and buts and we can all select the ones that suit our arguement..
Sensible writing AFKA.
My problem isnt with Powell, he is doing perfectly well for a new manager at a club in a sticky period. I wont get on his back because he is inexperienced and is bound to make mistakes.
My problem is with the owners for the timing of Parkinsons sacking and their changing of strategy from one day to the next. First Parky was doing a good job, then he was sacked, promotion is vital this season, then its not. As I said countless times at the time, it smacked of a PR exercise to get the fans on board. Only a moron wouldnt want Chris Powell in charge of Charlton at some point, but for me not now, we were ticking along quite nicely albeit with the odd shit result, he did pretty well with some very average players. I personally think he should have been given to the end of the season to get us up, and I would have rated our chances similiar to last year - Play Offs and a lottery, I am not convinced we will get there now.
not a bad shout - you have to get those players with ability, on the ball as much as possible and i used to suggest putting martin in the middle because i just couldn't see anybody else in the squad having anywhere near enough footballing ability / craft. Eccles might be worth a try - with oxo and semedo behind him and jackson supporting from wide he may be able to link up with BWP and Anyinsah quite well - lets face it, its worth a try coz there's no way oxo or racon are going to create anything.
If you going to play someone in the hole they need to be able to link play and ideally pick a pass or two - Danny Murphy and Di Canio are the two we've had who've succesfully played in that position. Ecceletsone is a front runner imo, he want to try and get in behind or run at isolated defenders - he'sgame rvolves around receiveing the ball in those advanced positions, not being the one passing those balls. We don't really have that player in the squad, which has been one of our problems for a while.
Spot on.
We got the goal scorer we needed in BWP but we still need that passing midfielder and the dominant centre half. Jackson might still be the first if we can't bring someone else in. I think Jack Hobbs would have been the other if he hadn't gone to Hull. Who else is out there? Martin Rowlands has gone to Millwall so Wilson from Bolton who did well for Swindon last year?
Regardless as AFKA said we look better with 442 with one wide player playing narrowly and both being willing to work up and down the line.
Regardless of whether anyone else has mentioned it,I feel one of the main differences between last season's squad and this, is a certain Mr N Bailey.
Much maligned at times by some on here but a bullish, fearless competitor...no doubt about that. What formation would SCP be employing on Saturday if he had the current suspects PLUS Nicky in his squad , and would his inclusion make it a more likely to win side ?
No guesses as to my answer...
Being even more simplistic. Just scoring one goal at Elland Road would have seen us up!
If I put my conclusions first, I am in the "Henry", camp in that I believe that in team affairs, the whole is not greater than the sum of the parts. I believe that Chris can get this group of players, playing better and with a winning mentality.
I am more concerned that blame seems to be bandied around far too much. Is the previous Board to blame? Is/was Parky to blame? Is CP now to blame? Can we blame this player or that player? Is it the lack of pace in central defence that is to blame? Do we blame a lack of creativity in midfield? Can we blame Eccleston for failing to play effectively alongside BWP? Are we as fans to blame for getting too quickly on the backs of the team when things go wrong?
In short its blame, blame, blame.
What does a blame culture signal? It signals failure, massive failure and collective guilt that flows from it.
It is not a new problem, this has been part of our demise for a number of years.
Collectively the clubs mentality has to change, from board, to management, to fans before the iceberg spotted Titanic that is this club in recent years, can be steered away from disaster and back to a safe and forward heading. Responsibility and acceptance of where we are is the first thing that is required. Beyond that a winning mentality based on a cohesive team is an absolute priority.
I believe despite the poor results of late, that progress has been made.
The first thing to change is arresting the failed feeling that surrounded the club up to the start of this year.
A new Board, with a new vision, has done that. They have swept away the old failed management team and brought in a new exciting manager. They have shown physical signs of renewal by replacing the screen, and they have shown intent to invest the opportunity costs of funding tickets for £5 for the Exeter game. This is good as far as I am concerned.
I feel sorry for Parky but he was associated with failure and under-achievement and that had to change. I don't blame him but he did have responsibility for what happened on the pitch and he had to be judged on that basis.
Chris Powell now has, in the short term, to make a silk purse out of a sows ear. I don't think he has done this yet, but I wont blame him if he doesn't achieve this. There is talent in the team but an awful lot of it is not performing to a consistent level to make a real difference to the rather stuttering season that has prevailed since the beginning of November. There is also great imbalance in the team/squad. He has to have time to turn this around.
There may be a couple of new loan signings but essentially the squad, with the addition of BWP, (and the injured Bessone) is the one he inherited. As fans, we must accept that. As somebody said earlier this week on the "pink oboe" list, in the end "you can't polish a turd". Its a bit harsh and we do have some talent but there is no point in expecting miracles with this team. Chris just needs to find a balance which gets this team playing better than the sum of its parts.
Please, please, please, let us throw out the blame game and get behind Chris and the team. He'll win through for us anyway in my view but it will be much easier if we can get out of the habit of slagging off the players and the manager especially during the game.
Excellent post Bing and worthy of an article in its own right. Looking forward not just raking over the same old "who's to blame".
What I thought Carlisle were was a well organised team who knew their roles, had a game plan, stuck to it even when they went behind, got the break (the first very fortunate deflected goal) and then pushed on. As a team they were greater than the sum of their parts, which as Bing has said before, we have rarely been.
It's all very well saying "we were crap against Carlisle" and then starting to point the finger but what can we learn from them? What did they do well that we didn't and could we adapt that to our players?
We are here and we need to start working to get out of here. It is possible. Other teams and Clubs have managed it. As someone texted me today "it will be a long road back but it will happen".
What is an acceptable target this season?
http://www.charltonlife.com/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=38841&page=1#Item_0
Seems like one or two of us have developed a little more patience since those earlier days.
“I am playing all the right notes sunshine (pause) Granted they may not necessarily be in the right order”.
Most of us accepted the signings of the last 2 yrs seemed to have some merit. Some may have been border line but there were few howls of derision when they were signed – such manifestation has only come recently when some of them have tried to perform. For many we do have “the right notes”. I would argue this year we do not. Either way the notes are certainly not being played in the right order.
Noting the financial straits under which it was assembled the current squad is not “fit for purpose” – if the purpose was to secure promotion. Sit down with a blue print of a squad plan designed to achieve promotion and then match the range of our player abilities & styles. You WILL offer Powell a shoulder to cry on. There are glaring deficiencies across the squad. For brevity I will list 4:
• Who starts the season without a recognized left back?
• Who constructs a promotion squad with one experienced keeper?
• Who sets Semedo as a midfield lynchpin with no back up and without acquiring creative, attacking, passing, competitive box to box midfielders to complement his skills?
• Who starts a season with no identifiable “forward” outlet? Employing 4 possible but limited options
Probably nobody by choice! The squad is a mixture of “make do & mend”. It is all PP could do. The squad has no discernable style or pattern. It has some talent and if the ball falls the right way it can do a job but if challenged simply seems unable/ unsure how to compete. Work their limitations and we are surely the easiest League1 team to shut down – the only feature many League 1 teams have to offer.
Watching the County game was scary. Players showed so little comprehension of how to create space, play off & turn defenders, play the channels, stretch the play or work triangles it was almost as if some had never been coached their entire career. It was hard to identify any thought process being employed at all.
We all know players at this level have limitations. Everybody seeks to ensure a balanced squad where players are able to complement and compete with each other. We palpably do not have that balance. Criticize Powell if you must but try as he might to “get all the notes in the right order” he does not at this point have “all of the right notes” and only a very limited opportunity to correct such omission.
Powell’s pedigree is mainly about constructive, passing football. I fear this is may in the short term be beyond the technical ability available to him. He has however very few options. No hard tackling or strong running midfield players to contest control of the game, no target man to bypass midfield, little threat out wide to turn opposing defences.
Getting “the notes in the right order” with this lot is going to be a long job. I part expect things might get worse in the short term. I think I will start looking for the ear plugs.
Grapevine 49
You DEFINITELY hit all the right notes.
If we treat a football season as a "project", you set a target at the outset and you then estimate the resources and budget you need to reach that target. At various points during the lifecycle of the project those estimates can be revised and possibly the target is revised too - the closer you get to the end of the project, the more accurate they should be. As a Project Manager, I really hated my earlier estimates being used as a weapon to beat me with. It's all very well having targets, but to acheive them you have to have the right resources and budget, and even then things may not go to plan.
Parky was not given the right resources and budget, was seen as a failure by the new owners and was sacked. We now have a new manager who has been set different targets and (we hope) will be given a much better budget and resources for the 2011-12 "project". So, I think it is fair enough for some of us to revise our earlier estimates for this season.
I remember reading things along the lines of 'Parkinson left us in 5th place, the new man has money, so the minimum expectation this season must be promotion'.
Yes i remember that as well Dave.Its funny how the goalposts have been moved.
Under Parky, we needed promotion to keep the club going.
New board came in, still expected promotion, that seemed to be their reason for sacking Parky.
Then they chose Powell, and as someone new to management they wanted to give him time. The board and Powell also talked about longer term plans like playing good football, bringing through young players, improving the players we have. It all takes time.
I don't really see a problem with expectations changing depending on who the manager is. We could have gone for an experienced manager 20 years older than Powell. That would have been a more short term appointment. It would have been about results over attractive football and building a squad for the long term.
CP is a rookie manager. He will made mistakes. Most new managers come in with an idealistic approach of what system they want to use and how they want to play. He will have to adapt according to the players he has available, and is probably already doing so.
If the players are not suited to his ethos, he will have to change them, (see Gus Poyet - Brighton). This won't happen until the summer.
So those of you expecting instant success, unlucky, and try not "to spit the dummy out" too often. The last 4 games should tell you that the current squad is not good enough, especially in 2 important areas, Central Defence & Central Midfield - the spine of the team. CP can't turn water into wine, but will be able to change it around when the opportunity arises. He has already make one good signing in BWP.
Those of you who attended the Carlisle game - full marks for supporting your team through thick and thin. Without you, the club would be close to a Luton Town scenario. Keep being optimistic about the future and always remind the club, when the £5 tickets are dished out and the opera singer appears, that you were there on cold Tuesday evening against Carlisle Utd.
I'm not referring to the Board's expectations ... I'm referring to those expressed (by us) on the previous thread.