[cite]Posted By: Goonerhater[/cite]"hopefully we will see many more ----"
are people aware that with the Olympics there is a divercity comittee that sits every month to ensure that quotas are enforced re working on the sites ? are people aware that the first 6 jobs re theolympics went to "divercity advisors" @ £60K a pop ?
No they didn't and why is this even if it was true, relevant?
You look at the statistics and it is clear that there should be more black managers in the game. Having said that, it is up to indviduals to promote themselves sufficiently well to persuade clubs that they are the most likely to bring success to a club. I don't think any board would ignore a black manager who they thought was the best candidate. Chrissy Powell will be a success or failiure because of his ability and not the colour of his skin - I have no doubt about that and this alone suggests to me that racism in football is not the issue it was.
It is most certainly easy to believe that the issues have gone or that they aren't the issues they once were unless you happen to be in the group on the receiving end of discrimination,, in which case your experiences are likely to be profoundly different.
I think there are some parallels to be drawn with the women in employment issues when +ve discrimination was first advocated. The glass ceiling existed, the statistics clearly showed that. It became a feminist isssue and there was a lot of lively debate about how best to address the inequalities, with ideas predictably dividing along the left/right political spectrum. Legislation slowly evolved which afforded some protection to women workers, but social attitudes and prejudices needed to be addressed in quite different ways, and it rapidly became clear that many men were very determined to protect their own privileged postion. They had to be dragged kicking and screaming into the smallest change and those battles continue to this day. But it was overwhelmingly women that forced and are still forcing the changes.
Something rather similar seems to be happening with the issue of black managers in football. I firmly believe that it is for the black players, and the would be managers who are black, to get together and decide what they think would be the most effective course of action and for the whites amongst us to be receptive to their ideas. They may or may not include +ve discrimination, it does sometimes take legislative change to kick start new models for progression and discussion.
Discrimination in whatever guise is always divisive, what is needed is positive action. Lets look at why black players don't become coaches/managers as often as the could. Lets look at why Asian kids don't go on into professional football. If there are barriers lets remove them.
I believe that Bangladeshi kids (as a %) play football more than any other ethnic group in the UK, yet as far as I know there are no Bangladeshi professionals. That has to be an indication that something is not working.
[cite]Posted By: Cordoban Addick[/cite]Discrimination in whatever guise is always divisive, what is needed is positive action. Lets look at why black players don't become coaches/managers as often as the could. Lets look at why Asian kids don't go on into professional football. If there are barriers lets remove them.
I believe that Bangladeshi kids (as a %) play football more than any other ethnic group in the UK, yet as far as I know there are no Bangladeshi professionals. That has to be an indication that something is not working.
I worked with a Bangladeshi guy who claimed he used to be one of the best footballers in his country but, as you say, there was no way for him to progress in the game and by the time he arrived here it was too late - he was in his early 30s.
Maybe, but I seriously can't see any board today discounting an applicant because of the colour of his skin - It certainly wasn't an issue for our board and our fans when Chrissy was in the frame. I do believe that managers are appointed because boards think they are the best people to take their club forwards - I'm sure this wouldn't have been the case a few years ago but it is now. Would be interesting to see how many applications there were for posts from black potential managers compared to white ones. I think this info would explain much more.
But if less black players aspire to be managers it is a different question to be answered.
Whilst working with in an education for Greenwich council I knew that the work force HAD to represent the local community, there was jobs you knew you wouldnt get because you were WHITE and the establishments ratios where I was working in were already too high.
[cite]Posted By: Charltonparklane[/cite]Whilst working with in an education for Greenwich council I knew that the work force HAD to represent the local community, there was jobs you knew you wouldnt get because you were WHITE and the establishments ratios where I was working in were already too high.
Obviously it would work vice versa...........
If that isnt racist then I dont know what is.
Positive discrimination is still discrimination. Quoters like that are ridiculous, although it's helped out our cricket team!
I am dealing currently with issues with London & Quadrant and will looking at my rights to repairs came across so diversity papers online
Which has led me to think i am not getting repairs as i am white, were my black neighbours seem to get new this new that, and im struggling to get basics done.
May sound silly to some but i have a 19 month fight for cracking walls internal and external , 3 year fight to get a new front door and a kitchen falling to bits and no luck.
but said neighbours have no issues and have basically got what they needed without a fight. does make you wonder.
Also they have a foundation to employee black managers!!! and that was on the equality page how is that equal rights.
Also my current employer has done the same in the passed aiming job adds at Gay and ethnic groups
[cite]Posted By: MuttleyCAFC[/cite]Maybe, but I seriously can't see any board today discounting an applicant because of the colour of his skin - It certainly wasn't an issue for our board and our fans when Chrissy was in the frame. I do believe that managers are appointed because boards think they are the best people to take their club forwards - I'm sure this wouldn't have been the case a few years ago but it is now. Would be interesting to see how many applications there were for posts from black potential managers compared to white ones. I think this info would explain much more.
But if less black players aspire to be managers it is a different question to be answered.
I would agree that long gone are the days when people would openly say this person can not have that job because they are Black.
However, when recruiting for a job, you naturally think along the lines of the things you know. You advertise in the places You would look for a job. You give preference to the schools, universities, places that you recognise.
No one is blaming anyone for doing this, but the fact is we naturally lean towards what we know.
Also to say it is for Black people to come together and get those jobs / be tested on results, it is very difficult to do anything 'first'.
Ask any woman who goes to football and she will be able to recount several stories where she had to PROVE she understood football. No man is ever asked to justify his opinions on football. And they are just as able to spout garbage.
Also entering a room when you are the one is difficult. Be it black, female, short, fat etc. Differences are differences and they are noticed, However subconsciously.
Just listen to men whinge about Loose Women making them feel uncomfortable. That is one programme with fairly loose humour. Imagine that times ten, everywhere every day.
I'm sorry but White Men simply can not talk authoritatively on discrimination (obvious exceptions to those who work specifically on this issue). The one place that summed it up well is South Park. Token and Stan have a debate after Stan's Dad says something racists and Token cant forgive him.
At the end it is only resolved with Stan realises he doesn't get it. He cant understand and he can't apologise because he just cant comprehend it.
[cite]Posted By: MuttleyCAFC[/cite]Maybe, but I seriously can't see any board today discounting an applicant because of the colour of his skin - It certainly wasn't an issue for our board and our fans when Chrissy was in the frame. I do believe that managers are appointed because boards think they are the best people to take their club forwards - I'm sure this wouldn't have been the case a few years ago but it is now. Would be interesting to see how many applications there were for posts from black potential managers compared to white ones. I think this info would explain much more.
But if less black players aspire to be managers it is a different question to be answered.
But if less aspire because its (perceived to be) pointless its a different question again.
I think there are definitely establishments that if you are black and good at your job, you have an advantage - it's called positive discrimination. Of course this can happen when there isn't much to choose between candidates but in terms of a football manager- it is such an important job that it would be stupid to consider any other factor other than pure ability.
This is an area that has ineterested me for some time - equality in the workplace that is, and something I have given a lot of thought to. Why is it that the percentage of ethnic minority staff who progress in their careers is less than white colleagues. The easy and lazy IMO answer is racism is at work but I don't think it is - not overt or in most occasions anyway.
I think there are 2 factors which contribute. Firstly the peer comparison.
If you are a middle class graduate say - the qualities you look for are closely related to your own. So you find people who think and act in the same way as you to be better bets when this may be due to your lack of awareness of different approaches. This can be related to education, culture or behaviours - the people who are going to impress me are the people I can best relate to and behave and think like me.
Secondly, some people from ethnic minorities do not have English as their first language. They speak perfectly well but it isn't their first language. I can speak Italian pretty well but if you put me in an office in Italy I'd be hopeless. It isn't about intelligence - it's just more difficult when you are working in an environment which communicates in a manner outside your mother tongue. I have observed this through work but nobody wants to address this directly - easier to assume racism is at play.
Don't get me wrong, I'm sure racism is still going on but I think these factors are confused with racism by people who don't look into the detail. The first example given is clearly wrong, and it can affect working class white people as well but it isn't somebody being overlooked because of the colour of their skin. To solve the problem I think you have to understand what it is.
The same goes to Women's pay - It was quite telling after recent legislation allowing men to take some of their partner's maternity leave that it was predicted that most men wouldn't take up this option. The reason quoted were that if they did, it would affect their pay and career prospects. Ok so it may be wrong, but it isn't a sexist issue that there is an overall disparity in men and womens pay. It is employers wanting staff who are not going to leave them at short notice for months even years. AT the moment, that is more likely to be a woman. It is a business decision which affects women disproportionately.
The point is there are so many complicated and underlying reasons and not many are due to overt racism. In terms of managers- there are 2 questions that need answering -1) do equal numbers of black and white potential managers apply for jobs and 2) If not, why not. You need to know the answers to these questions before you should start accusing clubs of being racist. And also if you want to know where best to address the issue. You can throw as much resource into educating boards but if black players do not apply to be managers it isn't going to change anything.
If they don't aspire because the percieve it to be pointless - well is that because it is, or because their perceptions are wrong - just annoys me when everybody looks for the headline, easy answer to complex, sometime immotive problems that require lots of fair minded analysis.
"I think there are definitely establishments that if you are black and good at your job, you have an advantage - it's called positive discrimination. Of course this can happen when there isn't much to choose between candidates but in terms of a football manager- it is such an important job that it would be stupid to consider any other factor other than pure ability. "
Positive discrimination is illegal. If you believe it is happening in your workplace that you should report it.
Which jobs do you consider 'not' important enough for ability to do the job to not be the over-riding factor?
This and many other responses fail to understand the reason for encouraging ethnic minorities to be guaranteed an interview.
If the 'best person for the job' doesn’t apply for it then they will not get it. And factors to do with a disproportionally low numbers of Black people in the workplace leads to a disproportionally low number coming forwards for the interview. This is about encouraging people to come forward, not just handing them a job on a plate.
Everyone wants the best person for the job to get it, that is why no one saying ‘give a black person the job’, just to encourage interviewing them. To give the interviewer the best range of candidates.
The plain fact that many are missing is that this is about equality not combatting racism.
You see that you are under represented with ethnic minorities- you have 2 similar candidates - the fact that one is black might in those circumstances give them the edge- The more important the job the more effort goes in to differentiating and finding the best candidate so one person is more likely to stand out and be taken on no matter their colour. Just observing what happens.
well thats that then " white men cant talk about discrimination" end of this thread and nice to know.
ill just forget the 20 plus years of being in a mixed marriage-----the 3 years spent living in the far east, the year in the middle east and the 5 years working in a compnay where 60% ofthe work force were not British.
Lets forget about the thousands and thousands of Trade Unionists who actually "fought" for womans rights-- anti discrimination laws etc etc etc of course these would be the same "white men" that cant have an opinion on the issue ? pity they didnt just walk away then isnt it !!!!!!
No one said you can't discuss it, all that's been said is it's hard to understand it. Obviously someone who's spent 3 years in the far east can understand it.
[cite]Posted By: MuttleyCAFC[/cite]The point is there are so many complicated and underlying reasons and not many are due to overt racism. In terms of managers- there are 2 questions that need answering -1) do equal numbers of black and white potential managers apply for jobs and 2) If not, why not. You need to know the answers to these questions before you should start accusing clubs of being racist. And also if you want to know where best to address the issue. You can throw as much resource into educating boards but if black players do not apply to be managers it isn't going to change anything.
If they don't aspire because the percieve it to be pointless - well is that because it is, or because their perceptions are wrong - just annoys me when everybody looks for the headline, easy answer to complex, sometime immotive problems that require lots of fair minded analysis.
Pretty spot on that. No point debating it until people know WHY there aren't as many black people on the coaching badge courses etc and trying to work up the ladder. If as someone says they feel it's pointless, then that needs to be challenged and changed.
While we're at it, can they tackle every other discrimination that occurs day in, day out, against the poor, the fat, the short sighted, the comprehensive educated, the gingers, those who didn't go to a top 5 Uni, those whose parents aren't as influential etc etc.
The excellent book "Soccernomics" had a chapter about racism in football, by simply looking at the statistics. I can't quite remember all of the details, but the gist is that the authors they looked at the number of black players from the time they started playing in England, their distribution across teams, and also their pay (probably the best indicator of value, and therefore ability). The underlying assumption was that black players weren't inherently worse than white players. Fair enough? Yet, black players were fewer in proportion in teams than in the general population, and were paid less. This was especially the case for teams in Liverpool. The cause must have been racism. The same now seems to be true with black managers - there a plenty of black players, but none want to be managers, or those that become them don't hang around or have the same chances to develop their skills on the job, make mistakes and gain experience. You can't even use lack experience as an excuse not to employ a black manager. Chairmen for whatever reason don't want to take a punt on them. Yet they would happily give high profile white players a job, even with no experience. Alan Shearer anyone? Gareth Southgate? Bryan Robson? Roy Keane? Not all are great successes. Some get it straight away - Alan Curbishley? - others need a couple of jobs to get into it - Steve Bruce seems to be competent now. The fact is, black managers aren't given the breaks that whites are even though they are just as good at playing, and are no better or worse as people. Anyone thinking any else would surely be considered racist. Whilst A Rooney Rule would seem unfair in principle against whites, it's only about interviews, not getting the job. All being equal in terms of experience, qualifications, and playing ability (though this rarely proves to be critical in management ability) a white man should have no better chance of getting a job in an interview than a black man.
When it becomes established that skin colour is no mark of management ability, there will be no further need for this rule. The fact is that the lack of black players becoming manager must be due to racism on the part of chairmen. I bet the players don't care.
More black managers are needed to make predominantly white chairmen see that its no more a risk than taking on an equally experienced and qualified black man.
Another example of this principle is the 50% quota for protestant/catholics in the NI police force. This has recently been scrapped because it has served its purpose, and people are employed on ability and not religion, now that a tipping point has been reached. I'd rather not discuss the recent death of the policeman in NI.
I'll crawl back into my fox hole and await the flaming.
You could say that more black managers are needed to persude black players that it is a career option. A player prepares for management long before he retires. You could say that boards discriminate against English managers in favour of foreign ones - a lot of English maangers would subscribe to this.
A lot of the problems occur when you decide a certain person is not qualified to talk about a subject because they haven't experienced it or suffered from it- surely it is best for as many people to talk about it as possible. I find the best people to talk about a subject are those looking for an answer with an open mind and not those with an agenda - whatever side they are speaking from.
Its not just English football, look at the international stage - African teams at the World Cup always seem to have the obligatory late-middle aged East European coach leading them to failure!
When Shearer was appointed on a short term basis, what other black manager was in the running?
Ditto with Keane, Southgate, Robson's first jobs please.
You're accusing chairmen of being racist without any real evidence to back it up, just a theory that because there haven't been loads of black ex-players getting management jobs like whites, then there must be racism.
I'd actually like to hear from Bright, Wright, Anderson, Palmer, Walker, Parker, Yorke, Cole, Asprilla, Ehiogu, Taylor, Hislop, Ferdinand, etc etc and ask each of them whether they wanted to be coaches/managers, if not why not, if so what is their experience of getting coaching jobs and managing jobs etc rather than loads of white people talking about it and trying to make new laws to impact upon it.
I take you point Sparrows Lane Lion - I obviously don't know all the facts about each case, and I'm just paraphrasing from a statisical analysis made by someone else, but can you offer a better explanantion for the lack of black managers other than racism? When the same patterns applied to black players not getting jobs, or being paid less, when the racism was much more overt? Probably any racism on the part of chairmen is subconcious. However, I honestly do not believe that black players chose to not go into mangement without race being a consideration, but the opinions like in your last paragraph would be very interesting.
[cite]Posted By: MuttleyCAFC[/cite]Africa has less resources going into coaching so it produces less coaches. Not a racist thing but a financial issue.
Understand that, but with the number of African players playing abroad these days you would hope that the trend starts to reverse itself.
I can see it now, Djimi Traore leading Mali to victory at Qatar 22.
Comments
No they didn't and why is this even if it was true, relevant?
I think there are some parallels to be drawn with the women in employment issues when +ve discrimination was first advocated. The glass ceiling existed, the statistics clearly showed that. It became a feminist isssue and there was a lot of lively debate about how best to address the inequalities, with ideas predictably dividing along the left/right political spectrum. Legislation slowly evolved which afforded some protection to women workers, but social attitudes and prejudices needed to be addressed in quite different ways, and it rapidly became clear that many men were very determined to protect their own privileged postion. They had to be dragged kicking and screaming into the smallest change and those battles continue to this day. But it was overwhelmingly women that forced and are still forcing the changes.
Something rather similar seems to be happening with the issue of black managers in football. I firmly believe that it is for the black players, and the would be managers who are black, to get together and decide what they think would be the most effective course of action and for the whites amongst us to be receptive to their ideas. They may or may not include +ve discrimination, it does sometimes take legislative change to kick start new models for progression and discussion.
I believe that Bangladeshi kids (as a %) play football more than any other ethnic group in the UK, yet as far as I know there are no Bangladeshi professionals. That has to be an indication that something is not working.
I worked with a Bangladeshi guy who claimed he used to be one of the best footballers in his country but, as you say, there was no way for him to progress in the game and by the time he arrived here it was too late - he was in his early 30s.
But if less black players aspire to be managers it is a different question to be answered.
Obviously it would work vice versa...........
If that isnt racist then I dont know what is.
Which has led me to think i am not getting repairs as i am white, were my black neighbours seem to get new this new that, and im struggling to get basics done.
May sound silly to some but i have a 19 month fight for cracking walls internal and external , 3 year fight to get a new front door and a kitchen falling to bits and no luck.
but said neighbours have no issues and have basically got what they needed without a fight.
does make you wonder.
Also they have a foundation to employee black managers!!! and that was on the equality page how is that equal rights.
Also my current employer has done the same in the passed aiming job adds at Gay and ethnic groups
I would agree that long gone are the days when people would openly say this person can not have that job because they are Black.
However, when recruiting for a job, you naturally think along the lines of the things you know. You advertise in the places You would look for a job. You give preference to the schools, universities, places that you recognise.
No one is blaming anyone for doing this, but the fact is we naturally lean towards what we know.
Also to say it is for Black people to come together and get those jobs / be tested on results, it is very difficult to do anything 'first'.
Ask any woman who goes to football and she will be able to recount several stories where she had to PROVE she understood football. No man is ever asked to justify his opinions on football. And they are just as able to spout garbage.
Also entering a room when you are the one is difficult. Be it black, female, short, fat etc. Differences are differences and they are noticed, However subconsciously.
Just listen to men whinge about Loose Women making them feel uncomfortable. That is one programme with fairly loose humour. Imagine that times ten, everywhere every day.
I'm sorry but White Men simply can not talk authoritatively on discrimination (obvious exceptions to those who work specifically on this issue). The one place that summed it up well is South Park. Token and Stan have a debate after Stan's Dad says something racists and Token cant forgive him.
At the end it is only resolved with Stan realises he doesn't get it. He cant understand and he can't apologise because he just cant comprehend it.
But if less aspire because its (perceived to be) pointless its a different question again.
This is an area that has ineterested me for some time - equality in the workplace that is, and something I have given a lot of thought to. Why is it that the percentage of ethnic minority staff who progress in their careers is less than white colleagues. The easy and lazy IMO answer is racism is at work but I don't think it is - not overt or in most occasions anyway.
I think there are 2 factors which contribute. Firstly the peer comparison.
If you are a middle class graduate say - the qualities you look for are closely related to your own. So you find people who think and act in the same way as you to be better bets when this may be due to your lack of awareness of different approaches. This can be related to education, culture or behaviours - the people who are going to impress me are the people I can best relate to and behave and think like me.
Secondly, some people from ethnic minorities do not have English as their first language. They speak perfectly well but it isn't their first language. I can speak Italian pretty well but if you put me in an office in Italy I'd be hopeless. It isn't about intelligence - it's just more difficult when you are working in an environment which communicates in a manner outside your mother tongue. I have observed this through work but nobody wants to address this directly - easier to assume racism is at play.
Don't get me wrong, I'm sure racism is still going on but I think these factors are confused with racism by people who don't look into the detail. The first example given is clearly wrong, and it can affect working class white people as well but it isn't somebody being overlooked because of the colour of their skin. To solve the problem I think you have to understand what it is.
The same goes to Women's pay - It was quite telling after recent legislation allowing men to take some of their partner's maternity leave that it was predicted that most men wouldn't take up this option. The reason quoted were that if they did, it would affect their pay and career prospects. Ok so it may be wrong, but it isn't a sexist issue that there is an overall disparity in men and womens pay. It is employers wanting staff who are not going to leave them at short notice for months even years. AT the moment, that is more likely to be a woman. It is a business decision which affects women disproportionately.
If they don't aspire because the percieve it to be pointless - well is that because it is, or because their perceptions are wrong - just annoys me when everybody looks for the headline, easy answer to complex, sometime immotive problems that require lots of fair minded analysis.
Positive discrimination is illegal. If you believe it is happening in your workplace that you should report it.
Which jobs do you consider 'not' important enough for ability to do the job to not be the over-riding factor?
This and many other responses fail to understand the reason for encouraging ethnic minorities to be guaranteed an interview.
If the 'best person for the job' doesn’t apply for it then they will not get it. And factors to do with a disproportionally low numbers of Black people in the workplace leads to a disproportionally low number coming forwards for the interview. This is about encouraging people to come forward, not just handing them a job on a plate.
Everyone wants the best person for the job to get it, that is why no one saying ‘give a black person the job’, just to encourage interviewing them. To give the interviewer the best range of candidates.
The plain fact that many are missing is that this is about equality not combatting racism.
Sorry, wrong Thread.....
Oh..........
ill just forget the 20 plus years of being in a mixed marriage-----the 3 years spent living in the far east, the year in the middle east and the 5 years working in a compnay where 60% ofthe work force were not British.
Lets forget about the thousands and thousands of Trade Unionists who actually "fought" for womans rights-- anti discrimination laws etc etc etc of course these would be the same "white men" that cant have an opinion on the issue ? pity they didnt just walk away then isnt it !!!!!!
Pretty spot on that. No point debating it until people know WHY there aren't as many black people on the coaching badge courses etc and trying to work up the ladder. If as someone says they feel it's pointless, then that needs to be challenged and changed.
While we're at it, can they tackle every other discrimination that occurs day in, day out, against the poor, the fat, the short sighted, the comprehensive educated, the gingers, those who didn't go to a top 5 Uni, those whose parents aren't as influential etc etc.
When it becomes established that skin colour is no mark of management ability, there will be no further need for this rule. The fact is that the lack of black players becoming manager must be due to racism on the part of chairmen. I bet the players don't care.
More black managers are needed to make predominantly white chairmen see that its no more a risk than taking on an equally experienced and qualified black man.
Another example of this principle is the 50% quota for protestant/catholics in the NI police force. This has recently been scrapped because it has served its purpose, and people are employed on ability and not religion, now that a tipping point has been reached. I'd rather not discuss the recent death of the policeman in NI.
I'll crawl back into my fox hole and await the flaming.
A lot of the problems occur when you decide a certain person is not qualified to talk about a subject because they haven't experienced it or suffered from it- surely it is best for as many people to talk about it as possible. I find the best people to talk about a subject are those looking for an answer with an open mind and not those with an agenda - whatever side they are speaking from.
When Shearer was appointed on a short term basis, what other black manager was in the running?
Ditto with Keane, Southgate, Robson's first jobs please.
You're accusing chairmen of being racist without any real evidence to back it up, just a theory that because there haven't been loads of black ex-players getting management jobs like whites, then there must be racism.
I'd actually like to hear from Bright, Wright, Anderson, Palmer, Walker, Parker, Yorke, Cole, Asprilla, Ehiogu, Taylor, Hislop, Ferdinand, etc etc and ask each of them whether they wanted to be coaches/managers, if not why not, if so what is their experience of getting coaching jobs and managing jobs etc rather than loads of white people talking about it and trying to make new laws to impact upon it.
Understand that, but with the number of African players playing abroad these days you would hope that the trend starts to reverse itself.
I can see it now, Djimi Traore leading Mali to victory at Qatar 22.