I don't think anybody is arguing that racism didn't exist - even in the recent past. The question is, does anybody believe that any board would not appoint the best candidate today, due to the colour of the applicant's skin.
I'd hope not MuttleyCAFC, but if it isn't the boards that are racist (and I'm sure it would be subconcious), then there must be a perception amongst the black players that they are racist to some extent meaning that they don't apply for the jobs or consider management as an option. If you look at the proportion of black players/white players to white managers/black managers, racism (or perception that there will be racism, which must stem from somewhere) must be the only reason.
There are a number of clubs who have appointed a black manager in recent years - just only one who is still employing one at the moment- the numbers will change depending on when you look but Notts County are not racist because they sacked Ince- It was probably more because they lost 5 on the spin under him. It's lazy to pick off the statistic of 1 black manager currently employed within the Leagues - It may be because Black Players in years gone recently by didn't see black managers getting jobs so they didn't think it was an option and thus prepared for - it may be something else- The whole thing needs proper analysis - Just wont achieve anything if you assume boards are racist when their brief is to find the best candidate/ they might get that wrong but they try to get it right and wouldn't cut of their noses to spite their faces. There is a whole industry attached to seeing racism/sexism where it doesn't exist. But if you don't identify the problem you have no chance of finding the solution as I agree it is healthy for the game to have better representation in all positions from all communities. It is easy to accuse somebody of being racist and if the accusation hurts then they are almost definitely not - they might need guidance on doing things differently to encourage more black players to want to be managers or to find more asian players - but no club would want to miss out on an asian Wayne Rooney if he is out there or a black Arsene Wenger - they might just not know the best way to find him as the current scouting academy structure doesn't unearth many asians- Racism is not the reason though - I'm pretty sure of that.
[cite]Posted By: McBobbin[/cite]I take you point Sparrows Lane Lion - I obviously don't know all the facts about each case, and I'm just paraphrasing from a statisical analysis made by someone else, but can you offer a better explanantion for the lack of black managers other than racism? When the same patterns applied to black players not getting jobs, or being paid less, when the racism was much more overt? Probably any racism on the part of chairmen is subconcious. However, I honestly do not believe that black players chose to not go into mangement without race being a consideration, but the opinions like in your last paragraph would be very interesting.
I don't think any of us will really know the reason until black players come out & discuss their reasons for not entering management or negative experiences they've had while trying to get a management job. It wouldn't surprise me if over the past decade there has been fewer because of their perceptions/memories of football 15/20 years ago & perhaps it's just a cycle that we are waiting for...the next crop of 100 black players to retire over the next decade may well churn out 25 who want to get into management as their experiences in todays football are much less negative.
[cite]Posted By: MuttleyCAFC[/cite]to find more asian players - but no club would want to miss out on an asian Wayne Rooney if he is out there or a black Arsene Wenger - they might just not know the best way to find him as the current scouting academy structure doesn't unearth many asians- Racism is not the reason though - I'm pretty sure of that.
Pretty sure there has been a lot of studies and articles written about the lack of asian footballers & cricketers. From memory a lot of it was about the family structure and not being allowed as much to play for Sunday football/cricket teams as kids, the pressures of studying for school rather than leisure time etc there has been plenty of literature on it and if I remember correctly it was racism from asians that stopped them having the opportunity to excel more at cricket/football - I think it was mentioned about the preference to play in asian only teams/leagues etc that limited their progress.
[cite]Posted By: MuttleyCAFC[/cite]to find more asian players - but no club would want to miss out on an asian Wayne Rooney if he is out there or a black Arsene Wenger - they might just not know the best way to find him as the current scouting academy structure doesn't unearth many asians- Racism is not the reason though - I'm pretty sure of that.
Pretty sure there has been a lot of studies and articles written about the lack of asian footballers & cricketers. From memory a lot of it was about the family structure and not being allowed as much to play for Sunday football/cricket teams as kids, the pressures of studying for school rather than leisure time etc there has been plenty of literature on it and if I remember correctly it was racism from asians that stopped them having the opportunity to excel more at cricket/football - I think it was mentioned about the preference to play in asian only teams/leagues etc that limited their progress.
There are a number of elements as to why there are few Asian footballers. Football is not part of 1st generation Asians culture and 2nd generation Asians grow up without parental encouragement to be involved in the sport, there are no footballing role models (Michael Chopra comes to mind), when Asians first came to Britain they did not reject joining English league (cricket, football) but were rejected (this happened to my father) and set up their own leagues,those leagues thrived and developed and so have lasted till today, even though there maybe more acceptance in traditional leagues today. A lot of the Asian immigration in the 50's, 60's and 70's were middle class with more affinity with business,and professional service careers
[cite]Posted By: MuttleyCAFC[/cite]to find more asian players - but no club would want to miss out on an asian Wayne Rooney if he is out there or a black Arsene Wenger - they might just not know the best way to find him as the current scouting academy structure doesn't unearth many asians- Racism is not the reason though - I'm pretty sure of that.
Pretty sure there has been a lot of studies and articles written about the lack of asian footballers & cricketers. From memory a lot of it was about the family structure and not being allowed as much to play for Sunday football/cricket teams as kids, the pressures of studying for school rather than leisure time etc there has been plenty of literature on it and if I remember correctly it was racism from asians that stopped them having the opportunity to excel more at cricket/football - I think it was mentioned about the preference to play in asian only teams/leagues etc that limited their progress.
There are a number of elements as to why there are few Asian footballers. Football is not part of 1st generation Asians culture and 2nd generation Asians grow up without parental encouragement to be involved in the sport, there are no footballing role models (Michael Chopra comes to mind), when Asians first came to Britain they did not reject joining English league (cricket, football) but were rejected (this happened to my father) and set up their own leagues,those leagues thrived and developed and so have lasted till today, even though there maybe more acceptance in traditional leagues today. A lot of the Asian immigration in the 50's, 60's and 70's were middle class with more affinity with business,and professional service careers
For Asian I mean Indian & Pakistani
Interesting. Any way it can be changed? Or is it inherent within the culture and will take a few more years to gradually change?
Inequality of outcome does not mean inequality of opportunity. Only people of lazy intellect see simple causal relationships applying to complex social problems....
SLL I think it will change, as Asian families fall into third and fourth generation, they adopt more of the culture here, there are more Asian faces in the crowd, there is me at the valley, but seriously at old Trafford there is a sense of it from the four sikhs behind the "dug out " area. It will be interesting to see if the new owners of blackburn have aspirations to bring in more Asian players either from India or the local populous of blackburn.
In cricket there has been a smattering of players who have Asian backgrounds such as nasser hussain.
It will also be interesting to see if the more recent migration of economic reasons from Bangladesh desh and similar are better feeding grounds for football, after all the roots of football always used to be in the poorer population
[cite]Posted By: MuttleyCAFC[/cite]A lot of the problems occur when you decide a certain person is not qualified to talk about a subject because they haven't experienced it or suffered from it- surely it is best for as many people to talk about it as possible. I find the best people to talk about a subject are those looking for an answer with an open mind and not those with an agenda - whatever side they are speaking from.
The thing is, while it's good to talk about these issues, it's even more important to listen. If you haven't experienced or suffered from a particular form of discrimination, you might have some intellectual understanding of the issue, but it's not the same as having to live with it. It's also worth bearing in mind that losing a bit of the traditional privilege you've benefitted from isn't necessarily the same as being discriminated against.
I agree, it is very important to listen - but you must always keep an open mind. We live in a society that has come a long way. Of course racism still exists and we must always be vigilant but we shouldn't ignore the fact that we have come a very long way. I nearly stopped going to the Valley in the 70s and early 80s because the racist comments were so prevelant and bad. Now we appoint a black manager to universal support from the fans - no other appointment could have been treated with such positivity apart from possibly Curbs. If the fans turn against Chrissy, it will be nothing to do with the colour of his skin.
We have to accept that point but some people and that includes people who have lived through and experienced racism would have you believe that it is as bad as ever. Not all but some. They look at statistics as we have been discussiong and say that this shows racism is still prevelant when the message may be much more complicated. Because it can be such a sensitive subject, some people accept the line- ' you can't talk about it because you haven't lived through it or experienced it ' - well sorry but that doesn't wash with me. If I see racism, I will always challenge it, but I have also seen accusations of racism when none has been present. SOmetimes it is used as an excuse rather than a reason. I'd rather as you say listen to the explanation of how racism has occured and if it has accept it and try to do something about it - not be told I am not qualified to question and think for myself.
Brendan Batson and Chris Powell himself both rose to the top of the PFA which suggests to me that racism is not necessarily a factor in why there are so few black managers.
[cite]Posted By: McBobbin[/cite]I take you point Sparrows Lane Lion - I obviously don't know all the facts about each case, and I'm just paraphrasing from a statisical analysis made by someone else, but can you offer a better explanantion for the lack of black managers other than racism? When the same patterns applied to black players not getting jobs, or being paid less, when the racism was much more overt? Probably any racism on the part of chairmen is subconcious. However, I honestly do not believe that black players chose to not go into mangement without race being a consideration, but the opinions like in your last paragraph would be very interesting.
I don't think any of us will really know the reason until black players come out & discuss their reasons for not entering management or negative experiences they've had while trying to get a management job. It wouldn't surprise me if over the past decade there has been fewer because of their perceptions/memories of football 15/20 years ago & perhaps it's just a cycle that we are waiting for...the next crop of 100 black players to retire over the next decade may well churn out 25 who want to get into management as their experiences in todays football are much less negative.
Agree with that. Imo, we will see an influx of black managers over the next 10 years.
[cite]Posted By: LenGlover[/cite]Brendan Batson and Chris Powell himself both rose to the top of the PFA which suggests to me that racism is not necessarily a factor in why there are so few black managers.
[cite]Posted By: MuttleyCAFC[/cite]You could say that more black managers are needed to persude black players that it is a career option. A player prepares for management long before he retires. You could say that boards discriminate against English managers in favour of foreign ones - a lot of English maangers would subscribe to this.
A lot of the problems occur when you decide a certain person is not qualified to talk about a subject because they haven't experienced it or suffered from it- surely it is best for as many people to talk about it as possible. I find the best people to talk about a subject are those looking for an answer with an open mind and not those with an agenda - whatever side they are speaking from.
Exactly. And my point about not being able to talk authoritatively on the subject was very much aimed at the white men who like to tell everyone that racism / sexism don't exist anymore. It is difficult to understand the way it affects everything if you have not been on the receiving end of it.
I still think that a lot of people are missing the point about the difference between racism and equality.
.
[cite]Posted By: MuttleyCAFC[/cite]You could say that more black managers are needed to persude black players that it is a career option. A player prepares for management long before he retires. You could say that boards discriminate against English managers in favour of foreign ones - a lot of English maangers would subscribe to this.
A lot of the problems occur when you decide a certain person is not qualified to talk about a subject because they haven't experienced it or suffered from it- surely it is best for as many people to talk about it as possible. I find the best people to talk about a subject are those looking for an answer with an open mind and not those with an agenda - whatever side they are speaking from.
Exactly. And my point about not being able to talk authoritatively on the subject was very much aimed at the white men who like to tell everyone that racism / sexism don't exist anymore. It is difficult to understand the way it affects everything if you have not been on the receiving end of it.
I still think that a lot of people are missing the point about the difference between racism and equality.
.
Also think a lot of people think the only battle to be won is stopping racism from white people on to african/asian/Caribbean etc people.When in fact there is a lot going the other way and inbetween races of the same colour (white included)
[cite]Posted By: MuttleyCAFC[/cite] If the fans turn against Chrissy, it will be nothing to do with the colour of his skin.
We have to accept that point but some people and that includes people who have lived through and experienced racism would have you believe that it is as bad as ever. Not all but some.
Equally he was not appointed because of the colour of his skin.
Others would have you believe that there is no racism that it is just guardianistas being PC. In fact it has improved a lot since i was a kid, but it is still there, sometimes a lot less overt that it used to be. Britain in a lot better than the majority of countries, but that does not mean it should not strive to eradicate all forms of discrimination.
Yes it should, by identifying and targeting when it is there and not when it isn't. John Barnes, Chris Hughton, Leroy Rosenior, Paul Ince, Ruud Gullit, Keith Alexander, Keith Curle and Chris Powell. These are the black managers I can think of from the top of my head - maybe I have missed one or two. As a few will have had multiple clubs, I think you can say that well over 10% of league clubs have appointed a black manager at some time. Still not represenatitive in relation to the numbers of black players in the game but a better indicator than highlighting how many black mangers are in a job at the moment. As has been said, in 10 years or so, the numbers will surely be much larger but rather than blame the clubs, maybe the PFA should do more with the players - but in the meantime we really shouldn't assume racism is rife in the game and instead look for the reasons why more black players don't become managers.
All the clubs that have appointed black managers and ultimately sacked them surely can't be racist, and it would be wrong to assume those that haven't yet are racist just by looking at the current numbers or number!.
[cite]Posted By: MuttleyCAFC[/cite] As has been said, in 10 years or so, the numbers will surely be much larger but rather than blame the clubs, maybe the PFA should do more with the players - but in the meantime we really shouldn't assume racism is rife in the game and instead look for the reasons why more black players don't become managers.
All the clubs that have appointed black managers and ultimately sacked them surely can't be racist, and it would be wrong to assume those that haven't yet are racist just by looking at the current numbers or number!.
I think this thread came out of a radio 5 live program last wednesday on black players and management and the reasons that the players were not interested into going into manager roles. Chris Powell had to be persuaded by Gordon Taylor to take his coaching badges because he did not believe he would get the opportunity, obviously he was wrong because he has that opportunity, but the fact is that black players don't believe the opportunity is there. They need to be educated and the clubs need to be educated.
I don't think anyone has suggested that any black manager has been sacked because of their colour, what has been argued is that there are fewer opportunities for them
Also no-one is saying it is just clubs and chairman that need pursuading. The PFA does a lot of work with young players on equality issues. Chris Powell worked with some members of our academy on this very issue when he was PFA President.
Well some lazy journos are inferring clubs are racist - My point is that black players now can see that clubs are willing to appoint balck managers- It doesn't matter how many are in a job today. If the player has aspirations of going into management, they must know that it is a viable option and that should see an increase in their numbers going forwards. Some players, black and white are more interested in being managers than others - I was suprised Bradbury was Bournemouth manager and not Steve Fletcher - but was told by a Bournemouth fan that Fletcher is more interested in playing at the moment - Bradbury has shown an interest in managing. The feeling that there is no chance of being a manager has probably been a big factor in diminishing interest in management from black players but that shouldn't be there anymore. Rather than any other action/intervention - seeing black managers get jobs at clubs is going to have the biggest impact and it has happened and is happening -you can't force anybody to be a manager - you have to ensure the conditions are right - which I think they are- and wait.
[cite]Posted By: MuttleyCAFC[/cite]Well some lazy journos are inferring clubs are racist - My point is that black players now can see that clubs are willing to appoint balck managers- It doesn't matter how many are in a job today. If the player has aspirations of going into management, they must know that it is a viable option and that should see an increase in their numbers going forwards. Some players, black and white are more interested in being managers than others - I was suprised Bradbury was Bournemouth manager and not Steve Fletcher - but was told by a Bournemouth fan that Fletcher is more interested in playing at the moment - Bradbury has shown an interest in managing. The feeling that there is no chance of being a manager has probably been a big factor in diminishing interest in management from black players but that shouldn't be there anymore. Rather than any other action/intervention - seeing black managers get jobs at clubs is going to have the biggest impact and it has happened and is happening.
And i think this is happening, I was listening to the program on the wireless, but as I was weeping over Dulwich Hamlet losing the Championship Manager Cup Final, I did not catch it all. But i do recall that Jason Euell was talking about going into management and was doing his badges. If a lot of the potential mangers have not done their badges or have only just started then there will be a time lag. Hopefully, players do not see the sacking of Ince, Houghton as anything other than the natural progress of ANY managers career.
[cite]Posted By: Sparrows Lane Lion[/cite]I think John Barnes should be blamed for any discrimination against black managers.
He is one of the first managers I think of when people say "black managers" and his dire record is enough to put anyone off.
What black managers need to do is make every chairman think "Ian Dowie" when white managers are mentioned and we'll have 92 black managers in no time.
For reasons that escape me I read fat John's book. It was written up to the point that he took over at Celtic and the last chapter was full of indignation about the lack of opportunities that he'd been given (despite landing a plum job with zero experience) and was directly critical of Sheff U for not interviewing him (although he had no experience). Wonder if he thinks all those racist chairmen that didn't give an untried buffoon a job and a huge budget are still quite as daft as he thought then?
Well said Chrissy - Everybody else is crying racism but the only current black manager in the league points out the inconvenient truth. Well inconvienient for those who prefer a headline rather than trying to understand the issue. For a sports minsiter to jump on the bandwagon says all you need to know about MPs - they certainly have their own issues to address but can't help taking the opportunity to make political capital at somebody else's expense.
John Barnes can only be blamed for being a bad manager - his colour is irrelevant and will have had no bearing on clubs when they think of appointing another person. Otherwise Dowie could have put clubs off appointing a white manager as has been pointed out!
[cite]Posted By: MuttleyCAFC[/cite]Well said Chrissy - Everybody else is crying racism but the only current black manager in the league points out the inconvenient truth. Well inconvienient for those who prefer a headline rather than trying to understand the issue. For a sports minsiter to jump on the bandwagon says all you need to know about MPs - they certainly have their own issues to address but can't help taking the opportunity to make political capital at somebody else's expense.
John Barnes can only be blamed for being a bad manager - his colour is irrelevant and will have had no bearing on clubs when they think of appointing another person. Otherwise Dowie could have put clubs off appointing a white manager as has been pointed out!
Bet you wished it had put Charlton off hiring Dowie. How he still gets jobs is beyond me.
Comments
I don't think any of us will really know the reason until black players come out & discuss their reasons for not entering management or negative experiences they've had while trying to get a management job. It wouldn't surprise me if over the past decade there has been fewer because of their perceptions/memories of football 15/20 years ago & perhaps it's just a cycle that we are waiting for...the next crop of 100 black players to retire over the next decade may well churn out 25 who want to get into management as their experiences in todays football are much less negative.
Pretty sure there has been a lot of studies and articles written about the lack of asian footballers & cricketers. From memory a lot of it was about the family structure and not being allowed as much to play for Sunday football/cricket teams as kids, the pressures of studying for school rather than leisure time etc there has been plenty of literature on it and if I remember correctly it was racism from asians that stopped them having the opportunity to excel more at cricket/football - I think it was mentioned about the preference to play in asian only teams/leagues etc that limited their progress.
There are a number of elements as to why there are few Asian footballers. Football is not part of 1st generation Asians culture and 2nd generation Asians grow up without parental encouragement to be involved in the sport, there are no footballing role models (Michael Chopra comes to mind), when Asians first came to Britain they did not reject joining English league (cricket, football) but were rejected (this happened to my father) and set up their own leagues,those leagues thrived and developed and so have lasted till today, even though there maybe more acceptance in traditional leagues today. A lot of the Asian immigration in the 50's, 60's and 70's were middle class with more affinity with business,and professional service careers
For Asian I mean Indian & Pakistani
Interesting. Any way it can be changed? Or is it inherent within the culture and will take a few more years to gradually change?
In cricket there has been a smattering of players who have Asian backgrounds such as nasser hussain.
It will also be interesting to see if the more recent migration of economic reasons from Bangladesh desh and similar are better feeding grounds for football, after all the roots of football always used to be in the poorer population
We have to accept that point but some people and that includes people who have lived through and experienced racism would have you believe that it is as bad as ever. Not all but some. They look at statistics as we have been discussiong and say that this shows racism is still prevelant when the message may be much more complicated. Because it can be such a sensitive subject, some people accept the line- ' you can't talk about it because you haven't lived through it or experienced it ' - well sorry but that doesn't wash with me. If I see racism, I will always challenge it, but I have also seen accusations of racism when none has been present. SOmetimes it is used as an excuse rather than a reason. I'd rather as you say listen to the explanation of how racism has occured and if it has accept it and try to do something about it - not be told I am not qualified to question and think for myself.
Agree with that. Imo, we will see an influx of black managers over the next 10 years.
Think Carlisle is chairman as well now isn't he?
Exactly. And my point about not being able to talk authoritatively on the subject was very much aimed at the white men who like to tell everyone that racism / sexism don't exist anymore. It is difficult to understand the way it affects everything if you have not been on the receiving end of it.
I still think that a lot of people are missing the point about the difference between racism and equality.
.
Also think a lot of people think the only battle to be won is stopping racism from white people on to african/asian/Caribbean etc people.When in fact there is a lot going the other way and inbetween races of the same colour (white included)
Equally he was not appointed because of the colour of his skin.
Others would have you believe that there is no racism that it is just guardianistas being PC. In fact it has improved a lot since i was a kid, but it is still there, sometimes a lot less overt that it used to be. Britain in a lot better than the majority of countries, but that does not mean it should not strive to eradicate all forms of discrimination.
All the clubs that have appointed black managers and ultimately sacked them surely can't be racist, and it would be wrong to assume those that haven't yet are racist just by looking at the current numbers or number!.
He is one of the first managers I think of when people say "black managers" and his dire record is enough to put anyone off.
What black managers need to do is make every chairman think "Ian Dowie" when white managers are mentioned and we'll have 92 black managers in no time.
I think this thread came out of a radio 5 live program last wednesday on black players and management and the reasons that the players were not interested into going into manager roles. Chris Powell had to be persuaded by Gordon Taylor to take his coaching badges because he did not believe he would get the opportunity, obviously he was wrong because he has that opportunity, but the fact is that black players don't believe the opportunity is there. They need to be educated and the clubs need to be educated.
I don't think anyone has suggested that any black manager has been sacked because of their colour, what has been argued is that there are fewer opportunities for them
And i think this is happening, I was listening to the program on the wireless, but as I was weeping over Dulwich Hamlet losing the Championship Manager Cup Final, I did not catch it all. But i do recall that Jason Euell was talking about going into management and was doing his badges. If a lot of the potential mangers have not done their badges or have only just started then there will be a time lag. Hopefully, players do not see the sacking of Ince, Houghton as anything other than the natural progress of ANY managers career.
If anyone wants to listen to the program it is on iplayer till about 23.00 today Total Black Out Mark Chapman on why there are so few black managers
Lasts about 150 minutes
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/c/charlton_athletic/9448746.stm
John Barnes can only be blamed for being a bad manager - his colour is irrelevant and will have had no bearing on clubs when they think of appointing another person. Otherwise Dowie could have put clubs off appointing a white manager as has been pointed out!
Bet you wished it had put Charlton off hiring Dowie. How he still gets jobs is beyond me.