[cite]Posted By: Bexley Dan[/cite]
Lets be honest here though - this isn't about us not wanting people walking around with there heads covered because we don't like the look of it - it's about identification and if the government and relevant authorities feel it is a problem then thats good enough for me - the rest is all guff and i don't think drawinga comparison with wearing shorts is a particularly good analogy.
The French ban has nothing to do with security issues, it's purely down to the morality or otherwise of women being veiled.
As far as I know there are no gangs of burkha clad armed robbers attacking banks up and down England so the security argument is a red herring. Obviously I can see the need that where the police, immigration, security etc need to verify identify then women should be required to remove their burkha, but that's completely different from banning wearing the burkha. If you're going to be logical about the security argument and say that everybody should be readily identifiable at all times in public, then you'd also have to potentially ban hats, scarves, sunglasses, football facepaints etc.
That might be what the french are saying in public. The french are and always have been very much for the french.
[cite]Posted By: bigstemarra[/cite]Did your wife force you to wear shorts, Sao Paulo?
I don't have a wife, so no.
If your asking me whether it's unacceptable for a woman's husband to insist she wears the burkha, then yes of course I think it is. But equally I think it's unacceptable for the state to insist that a woman does NOT wear a burkha.
From speaking to Muslims I've known both here and in Kuwait, it's a lot more complex than assuming that all women who wear the burkha are doing so because they're forced to. No doubt some are, but other do so because they want to either for religious or non-religious cultural reasons, a few even wear the burkha AGAINST the wishes of more secular husbands or parents.
The other concern I'd have about banning the burkha is when you do have women who are bullied by husbands or families, rather than giving them more freedom, you're actually giving them less as they'll end up being told to stay at home rather than going out in public unveiled.
Also does france not have a policy of not showing your religious beliefs in public. Could be totally making this up but I seem to remember a woman being told she could not wear her crucifix on top of her shirt at work for that very reason, at an airport if memory serves.
What about female circumsicion? - A similar cultural psuedo religious rationale but we rightly draw the line in terms of the law, but the difference is it is brutal and causes actual physical harm to its victims - young girls. A woman being forced to wear a Burka is clearly being abused but a woman who wants to wear one and is denied the right is being opressed by the state. Religious fundamentalism/conservatism doesn't sit well in the western world. We don't understand it and to be honest, I'm pretty glad we don't. It is a real unsolvable mess. We must also remember that it is a minority of muslim women in this country who wear a Burka.
[cite]Posted By: nolly[/cite]Doubt that france is a catholic country.
In public buildings (e.g. schools etc) you can't display crucifixes (there was a case within the last few years where the Catholic Church legally challenged, and lost, the argument that France is Catholic and that the crucifix should be displayed in schools) and state employees are not allowed to show any religious symbols. The French very much guard their secular society against any religious interference, including Catholicism.
I wouldn't make them illegal, but I would enforce a law stating that they would have to be removed in places such as airports for identification and security purposes
Yes I must admit I like the fact that Schools aren't allowed to be religious in France. You can't stop parents indoctrinating their kids but Schools shouldn't be doing it - Really, it should be for kids to make their own mind up as they grow into adults.
[cite]Posted By: DRF[/cite]The main arguments on both sides are red herrings.
Everyone's a little bit racist.
I genuinely don't care if they wear them or not unless it's a security / terrorist issue although i do agree that everybody is naturally racist to varying degrees. People are lots of things and in a democracy, those things have to be tempered for the greater good of society and if our government (even though i don't support the current lot) wanted to ban them and gave good reason, i'd be fully behind it.
[cite]Posted By: Leroy Ambrose[/cite]
And - last I looked - wearing hoodies wasn't banned either? Bit of an odd post all round, really.
You can't be looking very hard.
Fair enough - show me a law that says wearing hoodies is banned.
You said banned, not illegal, we both know full well hoodies are not 'illegal' but hoodies are banned in plenty of places, bluewater being one of them.
Only the other week a bouncer made me take my parker hood down at a rave.
You're right - I did say 'banned' - I should have made the distinction. This is, after all, a law we're talking about, not a dress code enforced by people on private premises. Bloody lawyers!
Life is strange. Popped into Morrisons to buy some cigars - told I wouldnt be served till I removed my motorcycle helmet. Later in the evening, told to remove my baseball cap at 6pm in a Weatherspoons, even though I had already had a couple and had been in there for an hour or so.
[cite]Posted By: nolly[/cite]Doubt that france is a catholic country.
Not true - France is a secular society.
Very true and they take the seperation of the state from the church very seriously and this is another law designed to uphold that secular view. French schools and educational establishments ban all ostentatious displays of religion, whether that's a crucifix, skull cap, turban or burka. They take the view that what happens at home is not their concern but state operated schools are there to educate not promote any religious beliefs.
[cite]Posted By: nolly[/cite]82% of the french see themselves as catholic still.
They may do, but secularism in France is, as Bornemouf said above, taken extremely seriously. Most countries that are secular do - or at least they make a bloody big show of paying lip service to it. Turkey is the best example of this I can think of.
Comments
That might be what the french are saying in public. The french are and always have been very much for the french.
I don't have a wife, so no.
If your asking me whether it's unacceptable for a woman's husband to insist she wears the burkha, then yes of course I think it is. But equally I think it's unacceptable for the state to insist that a woman does NOT wear a burkha.
From speaking to Muslims I've known both here and in Kuwait, it's a lot more complex than assuming that all women who wear the burkha are doing so because they're forced to. No doubt some are, but other do so because they want to either for religious or non-religious cultural reasons, a few even wear the burkha AGAINST the wishes of more secular husbands or parents.
The other concern I'd have about banning the burkha is when you do have women who are bullied by husbands or families, rather than giving them more freedom, you're actually giving them less as they'll end up being told to stay at home rather than going out in public unveiled.
Me, I could care less what people wear as long as it's not being imposed as an arbitrary symbol of control.
BTW don't nuns wear clothes with similar logic behind them? Should they be banned as well?
In public buildings (e.g. schools etc) you can't display crucifixes (there was a case within the last few years where the Catholic Church legally challenged, and lost, the argument that France is Catholic and that the crucifix should be displayed in schools) and state employees are not allowed to show any religious symbols. The French very much guard their secular society against any religious interference, including Catholicism.
But made compulsery wear for some of those great lumps of lard you see walking about
Everyone's a little bit racist.
I genuinely don't care if they wear them or not unless it's a security / terrorist issue although i do agree that everybody is naturally racist to varying degrees. People are lots of things and in a democracy, those things have to be tempered for the greater good of society and if our government (even though i don't support the current lot) wanted to ban them and gave good reason, i'd be fully behind it.
Not true - France is a secular society.
Popped into Morrisons to buy some cigars - told I wouldnt be served till I removed my motorcycle helmet.
Later in the evening, told to remove my baseball cap at 6pm in a Weatherspoons, even though I had already had a couple and had been in there for an hour or so.
May take up the wearing of the old Burka
BTW Floyd, I'd imagine a burka and a crash helmet would probably be a bit much in the summer!
Stones and Burkhas...Fine middle eastern sport!
Very true and they take the seperation of the state from the church very seriously and this is another law designed to uphold that secular view. French schools and educational establishments ban all ostentatious displays of religion, whether that's a crucifix, skull cap, turban or burka. They take the view that what happens at home is not their concern but state operated schools are there to educate not promote any religious beliefs.
The French National Assembly.