I grew up in Bexley, have lived in Africa & now Bermuda , 2 of my 3 kids were born here and qualify if selected to represent the sports teams of 3 countries under grandparent/status rules. I totally embrace this new world order and I would resent it, if having settled in a country, integrating myself and contributing in general to the community I was barred from certain aspects of that society. I enjoy the mixing of cultures and feel a lot is to be learned from this. Obviously the Ashes triumph last winter is a classic example of this. Strange that whilst bemoaning the inclusion of another South Africa born player, Lincs fails to mention the contribution of 2 other individuals from that neck of the woods, namely Duncan Fletcher & Andy Flower - arguably the brains behind the most successful period of English cricket in the modern era. Can't have it both ways.
Ironic when you read the other thread about the Ghurkas. People from a totally different culture to ours, fighting in the British Army! Don't hear too many complaints about that..........
Quote: Ironic when you read the other thread about the Ghurkas. People from a totally different culture to ours, fighting in the British Army! Don't hear too many complaints about that.......... For my part I would withdraw all British troops from Afghanistan (including the English). I am sick of this nation's armed forces acting as mercenaries for the Americans, Saudis and Israelis.
The Gurkhas, Fijians and many other young men from whereever often join the army as a means to escape poverty and to build a career and a life as well as being driven by a feeling of national pride and patriotism.
Gurkha soldiers in particular are drawn from tribes with a tradition of warrior prowess and the ability to survive and prosper in harsh circumstances. They are tough, well disciplined and loyal; traits I would love to see in more English born boys and indeed girls. A Nepalese acquaintance of mine (he is a chef in a very good quality south London restaurant) opined that many Gurkhas love a row and could start a fight in the proverbial empty room. As much as I am against the present futile expedition in Afghanistan, I am glad the Gurkhas are on our side and hope that they do not get a better offer from theTaleban, especially with such a tough negotiator as Joanna L as their representative.
I grew up in Bexley, have lived in Africa & now Bermuda , 2 of my 3 kids were born here and qualify if selected to represent the sports teams of 3 countries under grandparent/status rules. I totally embrace this new world order and I would resent it, if having settled in a country, integrating myself and contributing in general to the community I was barred from certain aspects of that society. I enjoy the mixing of cultures and feel a lot is to be learned from this. Obviously the Ashes triumph last winter is a classic example of this. Strange that whilst bemoaning the inclusion of another South Africa born player, Lincs fails to mention the contribution of 2 other individuals from that neck of the woods, namely Duncan Fletcher & Andy Flower - arguably the brains behind the most successful period of English cricket in the modern era. Can't have it both ways.
Ironic when you read the other thread about the Ghurkas. People from a totally different culture to ours, fighting in the British Army! Don't hear too many complaints about that..........
You forgot to add Bermuda red that Duncan fletcher was outrageously refused a British passport after the ashes win. Why do you think that was?
Prior to that he was unable to meet the requirements to gain citizenship because he was repeatedly outside of the UK for more than 90 days per year - because of the nature of his job, obviously.
The Home Office granted him Citizenship after a personal intervention by the minister, Charles Clarke.
Ironically Fletcher ended up re-settling in Cape Town anyway, thereby rendering the whole thing a bit of a waste of time.
Prior to that he was unable to meet the requirements to gain citizenship because he was repeatedly outside of the UK for more than 90 days per year - because of the nature of his job, obviously.
The Home Office granted him Citizenship after a personal intervention by the minister, Charles Clarke.
Ironically Fletcher ended up re-settling in Cape Town anyway, thereby rendering the whole thing a bit of a waste of time.
Well spun Orminston.
On 13 September 2005 Fletcher was awarded British citizenship after a five year wait. Although both his parents and all his grandparents were ethnically English, i.e., of English/British descent, Fletcher had been denied citizenship by virtue of the fact he spent most of his time abroad - touring with the England team. After the Ashes series win of 2005, the Home Secretary, Charles Clarke, intervened to award Fletcher his long-sought citizenship.[2
Well according to Aggers Finn is likely to replace Anderson anyway ;-)
And quite right too. But why is Dernbach in the squad ahead of Onions?. I suspect it's because his face fits with his 'fellow south africans' in the squad and the manager/coach Flower. And on the Edwards point' he was obviously a mercenary coach otherwise why has he settled in Cape Town and not in UK. I'll wager that when most of the current 'englsh south africans' retire that they settle overseas. They are mercenaries playing under a flag of convenience
Also, it is most likely a case of they want to just have a closer look at Dernbach. He's going to do little more than carry on drinks during the actual game, so why would you have Onions or Shazad do that? No, the reason they've called up Dernbach is so they can see him in the nets against the England batsmen and see what he can do. They've already had a close look at Onions and Shazad, so calling them up for a few nets and to carry water is a complete waste.
If another player is injured before tomorrow then you'll almost certainly see Onions or Shazad added to the squad and Dernbach will still be the water carrier.
Or are you suggesting that a)The England management shouldn't take a close look at players they feel could be good, and b)They should waste the time of players they already know well
Lastly, playing in the county championship and playinginternationally are completely different things, otherwise Mark Rampasad would have been the greatest ever English batsman. So looking at raw county stats is a waste of time to a certain extent, all it can do is possibly highlight players worth looking at in future.
Andrew Strauss, Alastair Cook, Kevin Pietersen, Eoin Morgan, Chris Tremlett, Steven Finn as well as Jade Dernbach all play for 2nd division teams.
OK, how often do the above actually play for their county?. Most if not all are on central ECB contracts. Dernbach has been playing for Surrey for most of the season with not a lot of success to date.
randy andy, what I am suggesting is that in D'bach's case it's a 'job for the boy' .. and Ramprakash? Typical example of rubbish selectorial policy at the time of his initial selection. He failed a few times and was never picked again. Why?, perhaps his face, unlike Dernbach's, didn't fit and he upset a 'blazer' or two at the MCC. Graeme Hick, a Zimbabwean, was another who never quite met expectations as a test batsman.
It is playing for their counties that gets them noticed in the first place. Chris Tremlett played all of last year for Surrey, but then perhaps you were one of those that thought he should not have gone to Australia. Stephen Finn was playing 2nd Division cricket before being picked for England. Jade Dernbach was the stand out bowler for England Lions in West Indies during the winter even though he only plays for a 2nd division side!
You're looking for some sort of conspiracy that simply doesn't exist. If it was a case of faces not fitting I can think of some England players who got plenty of appearances who's faces definitely didn't fit (Tuffnel for instance).
As alangee says, Dernbach was the stand out bowler in the Lions tour, so the England management will want to have a look at him.
I find your conspiracy theories really quite bizarre. We've had a largely rubbish international team for much of the last 20 years, over the last 5 years we've pulled it together to the point where we've won the ashes down under for the first time since the mid-80s, we're likely to be the number 1 test team in the world within the next 18 months and we're current world T20 champions, but somehow all that's despite "jobs for the boys" and "overlooking better players".
I would suggest the current england management team are doing a great job of selecting the best players for England and long may it continue. I'd far rather a team of players who have consciously decided that they want to play for england and do their best whenever they play, than hoping for a happy coincidence of accident of birth, ability, desire and national pride all coming together at the same time.
My family on both sides is as English as they come, although my mother was born in Wales as her father was serving on an RAF base there in 1944. Other than that, i think i have a Great -Great Grandfather from Ireland. My wife's family are likewise solidly English.
My boy however was born over here in Canada.
I would hope that one day he gets the chance to represent either of his countries at sport.
No doubt the selection standard for the English Ice Hockey team is fairly mediocre
My family on both sides is as English as they come, although my mother was born in Wales as her father was serving on an RAF base there in 1944. Other than that, i think i have a Great -Great Grandfather from Ireland. My wife's family are likewise solidly English. My boy however was born over here in Canada. I would hope that one day he gets the chance to represent either of his countries at sport. No doubt the selection standard for the English Ice Hockey team is fairly mediocre
I think you'll find that a fair number of GB/England ice hockey internationals are really Canadians under a flag of convenience. Your son is lucky to have a choice. My sons were born in England and are restricted to playing for England, in the unlikely event that they will ever come close to any international standard.
We've had a largely rubbish international team for much of the last 20 years, over the last 5 years we've pulled it together to the point where we've won the ashes down under for the first time since the mid-80s, we're likely to be the number 1 test team in the world within the next 18 months and we're current world T20 champions, but somehow all that's despite "jobs for the boys" and "overlooking better players".
Doesn't this prove that the PC policies and daily burning of the Union Jack in state schools while the children sang the red flag have actually improved our Cricket team after years of decline due to Thatcherism.
The children of the PC years (and the South Africans who grew up in the post apartheid PC south Africa of course) are now leading us to cricket glory.
Or that could be nothing to do with it at all. : - )
You're looking for some sort of conspiracy that simply doesn't exist. If it was a case of faces not fitting I can think of some England players who got plenty of appearances who's faces definitely didn't fit (Tuffnel for instance).
As alangee says, Dernbach was the stand out bowler in the Lions tour, so the England management will want to have a look at him.
I find your conspiracy theories really quite bizarre. We've had a largely rubbish international team for much of the last 20 years, over the last 5 years we've pulled it together to the point where we've won the ashes down under for the first time since the mid-80s, we're likely to be the number 1 test team in the world within the next 18 months and we're current world T20 champions, but somehow all that's despite "jobs for the boys" and "overlooking better players".
I would suggest the current england management team are doing a great job of selecting the best players for England and long may it continue. I'd far rather a team of players who have consciously decided that they want to play for england and do their best whenever they play, than hoping for a happy coincidence of accident of birth, ability, desire and national pride all coming together at the same time.
We have reached an impasse. You are quite happy that the successful (partly, the one day form is awful) England cricket team is 5/12 South African and 1/12 Irish and I am not happy at all with the position. In my opinion it reflects a worrying malaise in England when 'we' must rely on overseas born individuals. This is also happening in business and industry where foreigners are more and more often being appointed to the top jobs.
To get right back to my original point I (in MY opinion) blame PC educational and social policies for knocking the competitive stuffing out of many English boys to the detriment of the nation as a whole. This is MY opinion.
What I really like about this current England set up is, having won the ashes, which lets face it is all we really care about, they continue to try other fringe players out. No sitting back like post 2005 ashes triumph. As witnessed in Australia, we have strength in depth with bowling line up. Broad got injured, there's no panic, Breslan/Tremlett step up with no evident drop in quality. This should stand us in good stead and help avoid the situation that the Aussies experienced when all their star players retired at the same time.
So have those same PC educational and social policies held back Andrew Murray from being number 4 in the world, or held back the England Rugby team, Jenson Button, Lewis Hamilton, our untold Olympic medallists, our highly successful international cyclists, motor sports drivers, golfers, snooker players, etc.
Apparently not, the powers that be seem to have singled out anybody with the cricket playing gene to rain down their PC hatred on.
The single biggest government policy to effect cricket is nothing to do with PC-ness, it's selling off of school playing fields. There is a criminal lack of facilities and coaching for those aged 9-15, and that is the biggest problem, and why you are seeing players like Dernbach who had their initial education abroad, and then got to an age where the country game can take them in, doing so well.
Your attack is on completely the wrong target, this is nothing to do with being PC or social inclusion, it is to do with successive governments penny pinching from school sports budgets.
As for your point about the England team being 5/12 south african (Which isn't even true as many of the south african are actually from british families and only spent a limited time in south africa) and 1/12 Irish (though Morgan is half english) is just a reflection of England. We are a mongrel race. There isn't one of us who is 100% British (i.e. descended purely from ancient britons). We are all part saxon, viking, norman, roman, celtic, hispanic, african, afro-caribbean, or asian. Your attitude smacks of a xenophobia, when your own ancestors are likely to include Irish, French, Italian and/or Scandinavians.
randy andy, you came late to the party, read all the contributions and most of your questions will be answered. Murray?, Scots, NOT English, raised mainly in Spain, England RFU?, failed for the past 8 years and now selecting more and more players from overseas, Button?, middle class, private pc free education. You should really think more and consider the arguments before you post your comments. I agree that along with misguided pc policies, penny pinching has been a significant factor in the decline of this country. However, the reasons behind the penny pinching are manifold and too deep and complex a topic, I fear, for a site primarily concerned with sport.
AND, I am NOT attacking anyone, merely 'voicing' an opinion
I'm in the camp that you should only be able to play for the country you were born in. Tough if you are a great cricketer but were born in Outer Mongolia. Blame your parents. Otherwise what is the point of having a nationality ?
Terry Butcher was born in Singapore. Are you gonna tell him to give his caps back?
Ramps had loads of chances at test level and never cut the mustard. If anything, he was given too many chances.
Agreed, and as soon as he found superb form and a settled lifestyle .. he was persona non grata for some reason and never recalled. He has been usurped of course by a bunch of South Africans
Ramps had loads of chances at test level and never cut the mustard. If anything, he was given too many chances.
Agreed, and as soon as he found superb form and a settled lifestyle .. he was persona non grata for some reason and never recalled. He has been usurped of course by a bunch of South Africans
He was not persona non grata - he simply didn't score enough runs, or do so consistently. Ramp's problem wasn't technique, or county form, or that he wasn't bothered, he simply didn't have the temperament for Test level.
Comments
I grew up in Bexley, have lived in Africa & now Bermuda , 2 of my 3 kids were born here and qualify if selected to represent the sports teams of 3 countries under grandparent/status rules. I totally embrace this new world order and I would resent it, if having settled in a country, integrating myself and contributing in general to the community I was barred from certain aspects of that society. I enjoy the mixing of cultures and feel a lot is to be learned from this. Obviously the Ashes triumph last winter is a classic example of this. Strange that whilst bemoaning the inclusion of another South Africa born player, Lincs fails to mention the contribution of 2 other individuals from that neck of the woods, namely Duncan Fletcher & Andy Flower - arguably the brains behind the most successful period of English cricket in the modern era. Can't have it both ways.
Ironic when you read the other thread about the Ghurkas. People from a totally different culture to ours, fighting in the British Army! Don't hear too many complaints about that..........
Quote: Ironic when you read the other thread about the Ghurkas. People from a totally different culture to ours, fighting in the British Army! Don't hear too many complaints about that.......... For my part I would withdraw all British troops from Afghanistan (including the English). I am sick of this nation's armed forces acting as mercenaries for the Americans, Saudis and Israelis.
The Gurkhas, Fijians and many other young men from whereever often join the army as a means to escape poverty and to build a career and a life as well as being driven by a feeling of national pride and patriotism.
Gurkha soldiers in particular are drawn from tribes with a tradition of warrior prowess and the ability to survive and prosper in harsh circumstances. They are tough, well disciplined and loyal; traits I would love to see in more English born boys and indeed girls. A Nepalese acquaintance of mine (he is a chef in a very good quality south London restaurant) opined that many Gurkhas love a row and could start a fight in the proverbial empty room. As much as I am against the present futile expedition in Afghanistan, I am glad the Gurkhas are on our side and hope that they do not get a better offer from theTaleban, especially with such a tough negotiator as Joanna L as their representative.
Erm, Duncan Fletcher was actually GRANTED UK citizenship after The Ashes win in 2005.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4240294.stm
Prior to that he was unable to meet the requirements to gain citizenship because he was repeatedly outside of the UK for more than 90 days per year - because of the nature of his job, obviously.
The Home Office granted him Citizenship after a personal intervention by the minister, Charles Clarke.
Ironically Fletcher ended up re-settling in Cape Town anyway, thereby rendering the whole thing a bit of a waste of time.
Zola Budd
Well spun Orminston.
On 13 September 2005 Fletcher was awarded British citizenship after a five year wait. Although both his parents and all his grandparents were ethnically English, i.e., of English/British descent, Fletcher had been denied citizenship by virtue of the fact he spent most of his time abroad - touring with the England team. After the Ashes series win of 2005, the Home Secretary, Charles Clarke, intervened to award Fletcher his long-sought citizenship.[2
And quite right too. But why is Dernbach in the squad ahead of Onions?. I suspect it's because his face fits with his 'fellow south africans' in the squad and the manager/coach Flower. And on the Edwards point' he was obviously a mercenary coach otherwise why has he settled in Cape Town and not in UK. I'll wager that when most of the current 'englsh south africans' retire that they settle overseas. They are mercenaries playing under a flag of convenience
Andrew Strauss, Alastair Cook, Kevin Pietersen, Eoin Morgan, Chris
Tremlett, Steven Finn as well as Jade Dernbach all play for 2nd division teams.
If another player is injured before tomorrow then you'll almost certainly see Onions or Shazad added to the squad and Dernbach will still be the water carrier.
Or are you suggesting that a)The England management shouldn't take a close look at players they feel could be good, and b)They should waste the time of players they already know well
Lastly, playing in the county championship and playinginternationally are completely different things, otherwise Mark Rampasad would have been the greatest ever English batsman. So looking at raw county stats is a waste of time to a certain extent, all it can do is possibly highlight players worth looking at in future.
randy andy, what I am suggesting is that in D'bach's case it's a 'job for the boy' .. and Ramprakash? Typical example of rubbish selectorial policy at the time of his initial selection. He failed a few times and was never picked again. Why?, perhaps his face, unlike Dernbach's, didn't fit and he upset a 'blazer' or two at the MCC. Graeme Hick, a Zimbabwean, was another who never quite met expectations as a test batsman.
As alangee says, Dernbach was the stand out bowler in the Lions tour, so the England management will want to have a look at him.
I find your conspiracy theories really quite bizarre. We've had a largely rubbish international team for much of the last 20 years, over the last 5 years we've pulled it together to the point where we've won the ashes down under for the first time since the mid-80s, we're likely to be the number 1 test team in the world within the next 18 months and we're current world T20 champions, but somehow all that's despite "jobs for the boys" and "overlooking better players".
I would suggest the current england management team are doing a great job of selecting the best players for England and long may it continue. I'd far rather a team of players who have consciously decided that they want to play for england and do their best whenever they play, than hoping for a happy coincidence of accident of birth, ability, desire and national pride all coming together at the same time.
My boy however was born over here in Canada.
I would hope that one day he gets the chance to represent either of his countries at sport.
No doubt the selection standard for the English Ice Hockey team is fairly mediocre
The children of the PC years (and the South Africans who grew up in the post apartheid PC south Africa of course) are now leading us to cricket glory.
Or that could be nothing to do with it at all. : - )
if averaging less than 30 in over 50 tests (ramps record) is a good enough return im glad you are not a selector.
We have reached an impasse. You are quite happy that the successful (partly, the one day form is awful) England cricket team is 5/12 South African and 1/12 Irish and I am not happy at all with the position. In my opinion it reflects a worrying malaise in England when 'we' must rely on overseas born individuals. This is also happening in business and industry where foreigners are more and more often being appointed to the top jobs.
To get right back to my original point I (in MY opinion) blame PC educational and social policies for knocking the competitive stuffing out of many English boys to the detriment of the nation as a whole. This is MY opinion.
Apparently not, the powers that be seem to have singled out anybody with the cricket playing gene to rain down their PC hatred on.
The single biggest government policy to effect cricket is nothing to do with PC-ness, it's selling off of school playing fields. There is a criminal lack of facilities and coaching for those aged 9-15, and that is the biggest problem, and why you are seeing players like Dernbach who had their initial education abroad, and then got to an age where the country game can take them in, doing so well.
Your attack is on completely the wrong target, this is nothing to do with being PC or social inclusion, it is to do with successive governments penny pinching from school sports budgets.
As for your point about the England team being 5/12 south african (Which isn't even true as many of the south african are actually from british families and only spent a limited time in south africa) and 1/12 Irish (though Morgan is half english) is just a reflection of England. We are a mongrel race. There isn't one of us who is 100% British (i.e. descended purely from ancient britons). We are all part saxon, viking, norman, roman, celtic, hispanic, african, afro-caribbean, or asian. Your attitude smacks of a xenophobia, when your own ancestors are likely to include Irish, French, Italian and/or Scandinavians.
randy andy, you came late to the party, read all the contributions and most of your questions will be answered. Murray?, Scots, NOT English, raised mainly in Spain, England RFU?, failed for the past 8 years and now selecting more and more players from overseas, Button?, middle class, private pc free education. You should really think more and consider the arguments before you post your comments. I agree that along with misguided pc policies, penny pinching has been a significant factor in the decline of this country. However, the reasons behind the penny pinching are manifold and too deep and complex a topic, I fear, for a site primarily concerned with sport.
AND, I am NOT attacking anyone, merely 'voicing' an opinion
He was not persona non grata - he simply didn't score enough runs, or do so consistently. Ramp's problem wasn't technique, or county form, or that he wasn't bothered, he simply didn't have the temperament for Test level.
mark ramprakash played 52 tests between 1991 and 2002 averaging just over 27 in 94 innings.
tim bresnan and stuart broad both currently have better test averages.