It was a while ago, yes, that I worked in local government so I don't know if that's still the case. Perhaps people with more up to date info can clarify?
However, Muttleys point about the public service paying people 'less' must still fit within the competitive market that exists with the private sector. This is the same market that, if public sector workers really are so hard done by, will ensure that they eventually get paid a higher wage after they leave in their droves for the private sector because pay and conditions are so much better over there; only to be enticed back to the public sector by market forces.
Harry could take a 10% cut in his salary and gardually get it to rise back to current levels over say 5 years. He would actually think he is getting a pay rise every year by the look of it -dont let your employer get wind is my advice.
In my Department there is incremental progression every year until you reach the maximum, usually within about 5 years. Under the pay freeze there is an argument that the increments are contractual and therefore staff shoud receive them. What normally happens is that the increments are revalorised annually in line with inflation, but they are not being increased due to the pay freeze.
In my Department progression still takes place - but only because PCS fought tooth and nail and threatened strike action but for those of us who have reached the maximum for the grade there has been no revalorisation for over 3 years
Do you have the turnover figures- why did you leave Harry? Why not get the maximum for doing the job on day one- you could have somebody doing better and working harder and getting less?
Think this subject is a bit immotive -dont mean to slag people off- we all have our views - just feel quite strongly - I'll opt out now. This is a football forum after all.
This isn't about public vs private sector folks, everyone in work isc affected. It's about the scum that are stealing money from each and everyone of u . That you are all now being fleece to pay for in several different ways, pension, tax rises, pay freeze etc .
It was a while ago, yes, that I worked in local government so I don't know if that's still the case. Perhaps people with more up to date info can clarify?
Not sure about local government but in central govt most Depts operate some form of performance management system whereby if you get the right appraisal marking you get the basic pay rise which is always below the rate of inflation - for those who get an exceptional appraisal (not many) there may be an additional performance award or bonus - in my department this is usually about £200 before tax, however the senior civil servants (on over £60K) in my Dept get an average bonus of about £5k - so there is a significant difference between the higher paid and lower paid staff and its those higher paid staff we have to try and negotiate with each year!
In my Department there is incremental progression every year until you reach the maximum, usually within about 5 years. Under the pay freeze there is an argument that the increments are contractual and therefore staff shoud receive them. What normally happens is that the increments are revalorised annually in line with inflation, but they are not being increased due to the pay freeze.
In my Department progression still takes place - but only because PCS fought tooth and nail and threatened strike action but for those of us who have reached the maximum for the grade there has been no revalorisation for over 3 years
We had a 4 year pay deal which has just finished. They had to honour the pay deal but the freeze kicks in this year. Pay talks are going on now.
I'm a PCS lay official but I'm with Muttley on this - it's a very emotive issue, so I'm not giving my opinion.
Whatever they said before the election, Labour, Tory and Lib Dem had to deal with the deficit.
The economy was massively out of balance before the credit crunch when the then Government thought it had "banished boom and bust for ever". Gordon Brown bust his own golden rules on balancing the books.
Yes they had to bail out the banks, they had allowed monstrously gargantuan banks to grow to the extent that they were too big to be allowed to fail.
One of the corollaries to saving the banking system and stopping large scale mass unemployed as has happened in other recessions, was that employment in the public sector grew to an even greater scale.
The economy needs to be re-balanced away from over-dependency on the financial sector and switching some employment from public to the private sector. If anyone doubts that this has to happen, look at Greece where far too large numbers of cushy jobs were provided for in the public sector.
There is no easy way to do this. Pain will have to be felt by all of us but it is necessary.
My gut feeling is that strikes on a major scale will be counter-productive and some in the Government wish them to go ahead, giving them the excuse that any economic sluggishness will be down to strikes not Government policy.
Yes, you can have views on either side but if you have no knowledge of the facts, I suppose this discussion does show it's a bit more complicated than some would have you believe. A good thing to come out of this will be if everybody really looks at MP's pensions now.
This isn't about public vs private sector folks, everyone in work isc affected. It's about the scum that are stealing money from each and everyone of u . That you are all now being fleece to pay for in several different ways, pension, tax rises, pay freeze etc .
It's not about the vulnerable and the needey
Look ay the real reasons,
You are right this shouldn't be seen as public vs private sector - both sectors are affected - but its probably the case that the trade unions in the public sector are now stronger than those in the private sector and are deciding to finally wake up and smell the coffee before membership levels dwindle even further by fighting back against what is a concerted attack by the govt on their members
Public and Private sector shouldn't be arguing the toss with each other.
This is about the Political Class (LibLabCon) v The ordinary British People.
Politicians cannot find money to finance the pensions of those who've paid tax and national insurance all their lives yet money is there as required for EU Contributions, Bailouts of a currency we don't belong to, overseas aid to enable third world countries to buy weapons whilst we scrap our own independent capacity, the vanity wars of the prime minister of the day, stealth taxes via the cartel of energy companies to finance the man made climate change racket and obscene salaries of fat cat directors etc, etc.
The Unions should divert their industrial muscle to fighting all I've described rather than bullying and inconveniencing snivelling little Private Sector workers like me.
You know and I know that they won't though because the Union leaders are part of the same LibLabCon game. They all do very nicely thank you and sod the individual members.
I applied for and got my current job, only to be told on day 1 that I would only be on 90% of the advertised salary. 95% after 6 months and 100% after 12 months (next week yippee!).
No final salary scheme - you'll find that 90% of public sector employers got rid of these several years ago, no annual cost of living rise, no incremental increase, no 'job for life'.
Got a £500 bonus in April, which was nice, but that's the way of the World now. I just enjoy my job as best I can and to a certain extent 'work to rule' otherwise I would end up doing 70/80 hours a week. Let my Director worry about any performance issues.
Len - whilst I share your cynicism about some Union leaders who have been sitting too comfortably on high salaries for a number of years - I fail to see how the Unions can divert their industrial muscle against currency bailouts and govt tax policy etc - no matter what the Unions say about the wider political aganda their job ultimately is to defend their members immediate interests against the employer
Len - whilst I share your cynicism about some Union leaders who have been sitting too comfortably on high salaries for a number of years - I fail to see how the Unions can divert their industrial muscle against currency bailouts and govt tax policy etc - no matter what the Unions say about the wider political aganda their job ultimately is to defend their members immediate interests against the employer
The Unions are predominantly operative in the public sector.
They could actually support the public by ignoring the obfuscatory obstacles that they normally relish putting in the way of actually dong what the public wants from their departments.
One exampe of the top of my head from my own working experience would be for HMRC workers not to pursue businesses and individuals for late submission of VAT and other tax returns plus the interests and penalties thereon. Companies House workers could do likewise. The parasites in their ivory towers would soon be affected but ordinary people would not and would probably support such action as it is targeted towards those responsible for at least some of the mess we find ourselves in.
A bit of naming and shaming of the town hall bosses responsible for draconian parking policies would be another way of shafting the bosses whilst gaining public support.
Won't happen though because the Union leaders and the politicians are on the same side at the end of the day. Their own selfish one.
Not sure what point you are making Len - as impartial civil servants HMRC staff have to follow the rules laid down by the government of the day which is to collect the taxes due and apply whatever penalties are laid down by the elected government (or council in the case of parking policies) if you don't like the policies take it up with your MP The Union's job is to protect the rights of its members whether its a problem faced by an individual in the workplace or more collectively for example pay and conditions negotiations - the Union is not just about the leaders but about lay officials representing the interests of their colleagues when under attack from unreasonable managers and those lay officials have no political agenda other than to protect their fellow workers
It is time that the unions changed, grew with the era that we are in . I am all for supporting the work force in providing support and assistance and industrial action where it is needed.
But as len has indicated and I have mentioned create direct action that causes us to spend our money and taxes on getting this shit sorted at home, not abroad with bail outs etc.
They could rally millions to take to the streets and demand changes in policy, not make this a public vs private sector which is what will happen
I think people are just generally pissed off that while they are being told there's no money about, those at the top are still living like pigs in the proverbial.
I think people are just generally pissed off that while they are being told there's no money about, those at the top are still living like pigs in the proverbial.
Quite. A few posts on this thread have commented that we have to bail out the banks, or they will go elsewhere. They have grown too big to take on. Compare/contrast to what people said about the Unions in the 70's and 80's - that they had become too powerful and were holding the country to ransom. It will take someone with massive vision, large cohones and a lot of luck to take on the international financial system but I hope he or she is out there. Meanwhile lesser men will continue to scapegoat pensioners, near-pensioners, people on benefits, public sector workers and so on.
Too right people are pissed off but still I ask why do we, the Brits., so meekly accept the crap that Thatcherite govts ( and that includes Blair) throw at us? All that is happening at the mo. is that the govt is doing its utmost to provoke the public sector into strike action. It wants to pitch public sector workers against those in the private sector and thus create a ready scapegoat to blame when the economy doesn't pick up as predicted. Too many of us have seen it all before and it is with weary resignation that I sense a replay of history.
I've got some news for a few people on here. Not all bankers get massive bonuses. In fact it is probably less than 1 per cent on the Banking workforce that do. I was made redundant in January and would love to be in work now. Those considering striking should maybe count themselves lucky that they are in employment in the current circumstances. Just need to ride out the storm for a couple of years and things will improve. My ex colleagues, in a Bank remember, have not had a pay rise for three years and they are not considering striking. the current economic downturn is affecting everyone, and I mean everyone. Some people need to wake up and smell the coffee and get on with it. If not then sack them and employ someone else, there are plenty out there who'd be very grateful.
There is a 'pool' of 2.5 million unemployed out there which suits the private sector and the condems just fine, it keeps wages down, and makes people desperate.
He again confirmed that the Pension issue has to be addressed, but declined to support the strikes!
He again blamed the banks, and still seems to be in denial about the last labour goverments economic policy , although did admit they had got the
banks issue wrong!. He even avoided giving 'advice' to the unions except state 'do not fall into the trap'.
One thing he did support was the complete inequality of expecting 50+ year olds to pay the tab for the pensions mess in such a short term.
Be interesting to see Millibands actual position on this issue!.
Interesting point about work to rule Mutley, and I am sure that in some sections of work that will be adopted!
However, I cannot see many organisations allowing that these days, my contract stated i would essentially do any responable duty, at a different place of work.... the question is what is reasonable, and for how long!
Temporary contracts for all staff was suppossed to be done away with, and that was 10 years ago! 80 percent of the jobs were still advertised like that last week, so jobs for life in my old public sector place of employment is an illusion, if it ever existed!. Since I was made redundant, there has been 2 more waves of 'reorganisations' no pay increases for 2 years, and pension increases above inflation!. And the final salary pension scheme has been closed for three years now!.
There is a 'pool' of 2.5 million unemployed out there which suits the private sector and the condems just fine, it keeps wages down, and makes people desperate.
never been convinced of the figures Seth!
Most people of my age, sign off after 6 months and are not counted!.
Some go on to claim 'sickness'/incapacity,most just dwindle away, as they only need 30 years now to qualify for a state pension!
It is only the 'awkward' ones like me who are still foolhardy to think that I can get a job, and are still applying!
Only 2 of my year at art college are working, and they are self employed!, and they work pretty part-time!, and this is 58-61 year age range!.....
( been organising a re-union) So all those advertisements about web design/graphic design careers!.....
I've got some news for a few people on here. Not all bankers get massive bonuses. In fact it is probably less than 1 per cent on the Banking workforce that do. I was made redundant in January and would love to be in work now. Those considering striking should maybe count themselves lucky that they are in employment in the current circumstances. Just need to ride out the storm for a couple of years and things will improve. My ex colleagues, in a Bank remember, have not had a pay rise for three years and they are not considering striking. the current economic downturn is affecting everyone, and I mean everyone. Some people need to wake up and smell the coffee and get on with it. If not then sack them and employ someone else, there are plenty out there who'd be very grateful.
I agree Large, I'm sure that most people in the banking sector have neither massive bonuses or large salaries. I'm sure that your average Joe working in a high street branch, a call centre or the IT section of some vast processing operation suffer from poor pay and poor conditions just as those on the lower rungs of the civil service ladder do. And I feel very much for you and for anyone else that has been made redundant.
But that doesn't mean that people in other sectors of the economy should just accept what is put upon them (or rather, taken away from them). Cameron, Clegg, Osbourne et al would love us to believe that we are all in it together. We aren't. Whilst you were picking up your redundancy, plenty of others in your industry were still picking up huge salaries and bonuses. A small minority I'll grant you, but even if it is less than 1% as you suggest, that is still a large number.
The trouble is it is very difficult to know exactly how large as the Banks have been fighting very hard not to disclose to details of earnings to the Financial Services Authority. However, under pressure it has been revealed that HSBC have 253 staff “earning” £1m+. Barclays average pay for their top 231 staff is £2.4m, whilst RBS (bailed out by the taxpayer don't forget) still have over 100 people on million+ salaries. As for bonuses, I'm not sure the cat is fully out of the bag, but it is widely speculated that bonuses for top bankers will total £7bn this year. This includes £1.3bn that we know (because we are directly paying for it) has been sanctioned for the bosses of RBS.
To quote Nick Clegg, “It is wholly untenable to have millions of people making sacrifices in their living standards only to see the banks getting away scot-free”. Well Nick, it's a pity the ConDems not doing a little more to address this rather than attacking ordinary people in the public sector.
Before you think I've got it in for bankers in particular, I'd like to state that I find such excesses obscene no matter where they occur. It makes me quite irate to read about civil servants on £50k+ pensions. Just as as it does to know how many civil servants are on £¼m salaries (though you can at least download a list from direct.gov and find out exactly who they are). But these people do not a present a fair reflection of what most civil servants earn or have in their pension pots. Just as those on £1m+ salaries don't reflect life for your average bank worker.
Before ordinary people start telling each other just exactly what we should accept because we're all in it together, perhaps we should be more inclined to look at who really takes an unfair share of our collective wealth.
The "public" didnt vote for Labour they voted to get rid of em. The "public" didnt vote for scum like Fat Bob Crow. The report on pensions was commissioned by Labour and now they are so very silent-- like they always are when it goes wrong--spineless.
or how about a work mate of mine whose wife has been off on merternaty (sic) leave for a year in the public sector who has told him she is going on strike ---- who paid for your year off ?
Still think of the money we as tax payers we will save when 1 milion public (thats the public who pay the wages) go on strike.
At times like this I can't help but admire how the French workers would handle this scenario. Pay more, work longer get less ! Not on your French nelly !
The difference in France is that they are only interested in "home" policy, even though they make big EU and NATO noises, the real truth is that they do what they think is best for France.
For a start, they are not spending billions on soldiers in phoney wars !
Comments
It was a while ago, yes, that I worked in local government so I don't know if that's still the case. Perhaps people with more up to date info can clarify?
However, Muttleys point about the public service paying people 'less' must still fit within the competitive market that exists with the private sector. This is the same market that, if public sector workers really are so hard done by, will ensure that they eventually get paid a higher wage after they leave in their droves for the private sector because pay and conditions are so much better over there; only to be enticed back to the public sector by market forces.
It's not about the vulnerable and the needey
Look ay the real reasons,
know if that's still the case. Perhaps people with more up to date info
can clarify?
Not sure about local government but in central govt most Depts operate some form of performance management system whereby if you get the right appraisal marking you get the basic pay rise which is always below the rate of inflation - for those who get an exceptional appraisal (not many) there may be an additional performance award or bonus - in my department this is usually about £200 before tax, however the senior civil servants (on over £60K) in my Dept get an average bonus of about £5k - so there is a significant difference between the higher paid and lower paid staff and its those higher paid staff we have to try and negotiate with each year!
We had a 4 year pay deal which has just finished. They had to honour the pay deal but the freeze kicks in this year. Pay talks are going on now.
I'm a PCS lay official but I'm with Muttley on this - it's a very emotive issue, so I'm not giving my opinion.
Public and Private sector shouldn't be arguing the toss with each other.
This is about the Political Class (LibLabCon) v The ordinary British People.
Politicians cannot find money to finance the pensions of those who've paid tax and national insurance all their lives yet money is there as required for EU Contributions, Bailouts of a currency we don't belong to, overseas aid to enable third world countries to buy weapons whilst we scrap our own independent capacity, the vanity wars of the prime minister of the day, stealth taxes via the cartel of energy companies to finance the man made climate change racket and obscene salaries of fat cat directors etc, etc.
The Unions should divert their industrial muscle to fighting all I've described rather than bullying and inconveniencing snivelling little Private Sector workers like me.
You know and I know that they won't though because the Union leaders are part of the same LibLabCon game. They all do very nicely thank you and sod the individual members.
I rejoined the 'public sector' in June last year.
I applied for and got my current job, only to be told on day 1 that I would only be on 90% of the advertised salary. 95% after 6 months and 100% after 12 months (next week yippee!).
No final salary scheme - you'll find that 90% of public sector employers got rid of these several years ago, no annual cost of living rise, no incremental increase, no 'job for life'.
Got a £500 bonus in April, which was nice, but that's the way of the World now. I just enjoy my job as best I can and to a certain extent 'work to rule' otherwise I would end up doing 70/80 hours a week. Let my Director worry about any performance issues.
The Unions are predominantly operative in the public sector.
They could actually support the public by ignoring the obfuscatory obstacles that they normally relish putting in the way of actually dong what the public wants from their departments.
One exampe of the top of my head from my own working experience would be for HMRC workers not to pursue businesses and individuals for late submission of VAT and other tax returns plus the interests and penalties thereon. Companies House workers could do likewise. The parasites in their ivory towers would soon be affected but ordinary people would not and would probably support such action as it is targeted towards those responsible for at least some of the mess we find ourselves in.
A bit of naming and shaming of the town hall bosses responsible for draconian parking policies would be another way of shafting the bosses whilst gaining public support.
Won't happen though because the Union leaders and the politicians are on the same side at the end of the day. Their own selfish one.
The Union's job is to protect the rights of its members whether its a problem faced by an individual in the workplace or more collectively for example pay and conditions negotiations - the Union is not just about the leaders but about lay officials representing the interests of their colleagues when under attack from unreasonable managers and those lay officials have no political agenda other than to protect their fellow workers
But as len has indicated and I have mentioned create direct action that causes us to spend our money and taxes on getting this shit sorted at home, not abroad with bail outs etc.
They could rally millions to take to the streets and demand changes in policy, not make this a public vs private sector which is what will happen
There is a 'pool' of 2.5 million unemployed out there which suits the private sector and the condems just fine, it keeps wages down, and makes people desperate.
But that doesn't mean that people in other sectors of the economy should just accept what is put upon them (or rather, taken away from them). Cameron, Clegg, Osbourne et al would love us to believe that we are all in it together. We aren't. Whilst you were picking up your redundancy, plenty of others in your industry were still picking up huge salaries and bonuses. A small minority I'll grant you, but even if it is less than 1% as you suggest, that is still a large number.
The trouble is it is very difficult to know exactly how large as the Banks have been fighting very hard not to disclose to details of earnings to the Financial Services Authority. However, under pressure it has been revealed that HSBC have 253 staff “earning” £1m+. Barclays average pay for their top 231 staff is £2.4m, whilst RBS (bailed out by the taxpayer don't forget) still have over 100 people on million+ salaries. As for bonuses, I'm not sure the cat is fully out of the bag, but it is widely speculated that bonuses for top bankers will total £7bn this year. This includes £1.3bn that we know (because we are directly paying for it) has been sanctioned for the bosses of RBS.
To quote Nick Clegg, “It is wholly untenable to have millions of people making sacrifices in their living standards only to see the banks getting away scot-free”. Well Nick, it's a pity the ConDems not doing a little more to address this rather than attacking ordinary people in the public sector.
Before you think I've got it in for bankers in particular, I'd like to state that I find such excesses obscene no matter where they occur. It makes me quite irate to read about civil servants on £50k+ pensions. Just as as it does to know how many civil servants are on £¼m salaries (though you can at least download a list from direct.gov and find out exactly who they are). But these people do not a present a fair reflection of what most civil servants earn or have in their pension pots. Just as those on £1m+ salaries don't reflect life for your average bank worker.
Before ordinary people start telling each other just exactly what we should accept because we're all in it together, perhaps we should be more inclined to look at who really takes an unfair share of our collective wealth.
The "public" didnt vote for Labour they voted to get rid of em. The "public" didnt vote for scum like Fat Bob Crow. The report on pensions was commissioned by Labour and now they are so very silent-- like they always are when it goes wrong--spineless.
or how about a work mate of mine whose wife has been off on merternaty (sic) leave for a year in the public sector who has told him she is going on strike ---- who paid for your year off ?
Still think of the money we as tax payers we will save when 1 milion public (thats the public who pay the wages) go on strike.