Do you know what. Sometimes it just comes down to good old morality. Nothing will convince me that a huge responsibility for our current world predicament fall fairly and squarely on the shoulders of the greed fuelled opportunistic scheming bankers. The spineless self serving politicians sit snugly in the banking corporations of the worlds warm pockets feeding off the scraps and acting as consultants to these modern day barons. There is no will to reform the system that is unjust and immoral because too many of the lawmakers are doing very nicely thank you. Huge bonuses and politicians pensions not affected by the new austerity measures. Makes me sick.
Nothing here that I disagree with,
The banking/finance community demanded less regulation with the argument that they were best placed to regulate themselves and restrictions were costing them money. Our craven politicians caved in - and that's Labour and Conservative politicans. The question is why haven't they introduced stricter regulations or introduced taxes on the banking community. Surely it's got nothing to do with the several million quid that the City throw at the Conservative party every year? The Tories are not going to hurt the hand that feeds them, until then it's much easier to hit the NHS, education and the public sector. That makes for very good PR with the Tory press.
It does not matter what or how Bob Crow does things , the fact is Rupert Murdoch has it in for him and people like to believe what they read in The Sun.
The actual facts are that The RMT very rarely strike. They threaten to strike a lot but compared to other unions they dont use industrial action as much as The Tory press would like you to think.
Thatcher shafted the working man 25 years ago while her city friend's prospered . It WONT happen again.
The thing is, Beds, that is exactly what will happen if you strike and lose the support of the public like the Miners did.
Frankly you have summed up what the public think in your post. You don't care what the public think, you want the Tax Payer to fund your Pension and you are willing to 'punish' and 'bully' them until they agree to do so.
You might find that the public Tax Payer have a little more back bone for the fight, following the cut backs that we have had to make, if you expect to hold us to ransom.
That is my view and I don't expect everyone to agree with me, but I haven't read much support for the strike, either here or elsewhere, from anyone that is not, and has not been, employed in the public sector. That must tell you something about the level of public support you will receive when the services that we pay our taxes for are taken away until we agree to pay more for them.
The Tax payer does not fund my pension. I work for a private company.
I do wonder if those condemning public service workers for contemplating industrial action to protect what they have worked and payed for wouldn't do exactly the same if they had a trade union to support them. The private sector over the years have distanced themselves from the trade union movement and are now bleating about the power that they have relinquished that other groups have retained. I am not a militant trade unionist but I am glad that my sector has the union in my corner.
The problem as has been stated already is that the Unions are part of the problem. Officials who are paid too much with a lack of strategic understanding. The Government wants a strike despite what they say -It deflects from the fact that their economic strategy isn't working - the best thing to do is to get all public servants to put into a strike fund- work their contracted hours only and target strike action in areas that hurts the government but not the people and state as much at every opportunity. That sort of organisation would put the wind up the government.
What else can they do? If they don't stand up for their members then where do they draw the line? And what's the point of joining a union if they aren't going to do anything to help their members?
Whoever goes on strike is going to hurt somebody, or why are they workers in the first place? (yeah I know there are certain celebs who if they struck we would all love it) Workers are not slaves (yet), and if laws came in to punish strikers there would be co-ordinated action to all call in sick on the same day.
The workforce is one of the factors that ebb and flow in the 'marketplace', and their position is one that needs to be understood in order for any progress to be made.
It does not matter what or how Bob Crow does things , the fact is Rupert Murdoch has it in for him and people like to believe what they read in The Sun.
The actual facts are that The RMT very rarely strike. They threaten to strike a lot but compared to other unions they dont use industrial action as much as The Tory press would like you to think.
Sorry Beds, but I have to take slight issue with that.
I don't read Murdoch's papers and the suggestion that anyone that who doesn't hold Crow out to be some sort of hero - a modern day Robin Hood, if you like - must be somehow brainwashed by Murdoch, or just too stupid to make up their own minds, is actually quite offensive.
For the record, I don't read The Sun but I think Bob Crow is a first class ****.
Such as- Work to rule - most public servants work more than their contracted hours so if they worked only them, taking their tea breaks/lunch breaks the holes caused by previous staff cuts will really show up. Don't all go on strike- create a fighting fund (funded by those that don't) to target strikes- strikers that are paid cant be beaten and the mood is probably such that other civil servants would support. Try to hurt the government but not alienate the people - you dont get sympathy from angry people.
It does not matter what or how Bob Crow does things , the fact is Rupert Murdoch has it in for him and people like to believe what they read in The Sun.
The actual facts are that The RMT very rarely strike. They threaten to strike a lot but compared to other unions they dont use industrial action as much as The Tory press would like you to think.
Sorry Beds, but I have to take slight issue with that.
I don't read Murdoch's papers and the suggestion that anyone that who doesn't hold Crow out to be some sort of hero - a modern day Robin Hood, if you like - must be somehow brainwashed by Murdoch, or just too stupid to make up their own minds, is actually quite offensive.
For the record, I don't read The Sun but I think Bob Crow is a first class ****.
And I think Rupert Murdoch is an even bigger **** than Bob Crow and a far bigger danger to our democracy.
Such as- Work to rule - most public servants work more than their contracted hours so if they worked only them, taking their tea breaks/lunch breaks the holes caused by previous staff cuts will really show up. Don't all go on strike- create a fighting fund (funded by those that don't) to target strikes- strikers that are paid cant be beaten and the mood is probably such that other civil servants would support. Try to hurt the government but not alienate the people - you dont get sympathy from angry people.
I'm not sure that any of these tactics would hurt the government and would still be hitting the public.
It does not matter what or how Bob Crow does things , the fact is Rupert Murdoch has it in for him and people like to believe what they read in The Sun.
The actual facts are that The RMT very rarely strike. They threaten to strike a lot but compared to other unions they dont use industrial action as much as The Tory press would like you to think.
Sorry Beds, but I have to take slight issue with that.
I don't read Murdoch's papers and the suggestion that anyone that who doesn't hold Crow out to be some sort of hero - a modern day Robin Hood, if you like - must be somehow brainwashed by Murdoch, or just too stupid to make up their own minds, is actually quite offensive.
For the record, I don't read The Sun but I think Bob Crow is a first class ****.
And I think Rupert Murdoch is an even bigger **** than Bob Crow and a far bigger danger to our democracy.
Fair enough, you might be right. But that wasn't the point that Beds was making and that I was responding too.
I think Simon Jordan's a ****, and I could list more. But that still wouldn't be relevant.
At the end of the day if your job was in danger or someone was threating to f**k with your pension while the bankers get away scott free. Bankers that have raped this country and put it in the mess it is now , then you would do whatever you have to help your family and save your home regardless of who heads your union or how it might inconvenience other people. That might sound harsh but when the chips are down...
Having said that it must be a last resort and regardless of what some people about strike action, it usually is a last resort .
As has been said above by others, what is the point of being in a Union if they don't fight for your rights?
The fact that the Tory press hate Bob Crow means that he must be pissing them off and doing a great job for the members of his union - that's what he gets paid to do.
Bottom line is that trade unions are a lobby group, simple as that, they bargain on a collective basis for their members.
The real question is this, how come it is the trade unions - the only lobby group for working people in the country - that get called into account for their actions?
You want to see a really powerful workers' lobby group? Try the British Medical Association, the Institute of Directors, the British Chamber of Commerce or the British Bankers Association.
Never see those guys questioned in the Tory press, do you?
When I was considering becoming a teacher people said, 'You won't get paid much, but you'll get a good pension'. What are we going to say to the graduates of the future, with over £50k of student debt who are thinking about entering the profession? On top of that, it's well documented that teachers have a pretty shocking life expectancy after retirement. Whetever your perceptions of teaching might be let me tell you it is a bloody draining job and the idea of standing in front of classes of kids day in day out into my late 60s is scary.
We're going on strike because the the teaching profession of the future is well and truly in the shit because of these reforms. Whatever the theoretical arguments about this issue might be, isn't it at least worth considering the outcomes?
You want to see a really powerful workers' lobby group? Try the British Medical Association, the Institute of Directors, the British Chamber of Commerce or the British Bankers Association.
The funny thing is , Ive met Bob Crow and he's nothing like the Millwall thug that he is portrayed as in the Tory press . He's an extremely clever man and he earns every penny of that large salary because as Ormiston addick says , He does a great job for his members and it's the £16 subs i pay a month that gives me piece of mind that if my company wants to make make me redundant then bring in foreign contractors for half the price , that big bad nasty Bob isn't going to let it happen and secretly most people would love to have that force behind them.
That was a tube worker i believe. I dont know the story behind it so i cant really comment but the RMT would not normally ballot members to go on strike unless they felt that the London Underground had done something drastically wrong.
Note: They would not ballot all RMT members , just those members of staff that worked in his department. I dont work for London Underground so i dont know about this case.
"Not a shred of evidence" said big loveable Bob. Apart from the contents of the local Threshers being found in the mess room of course. How does that fit in with our man Bob and his apparent concern for public safety I wonder, knowing that people were sitting there getting smashed up on a regular basis?
As I said above, it's all very well "representing members interests", but somebody here was actually endangering the lives of both the travelling public AND RMT members.
Well you have obviously made your mind up about him .
All i can say is that it's easy highlighting cases like that because it makes good headlines ( and that web page is 7 years old!) but i what i do know for a fact this 24 Carat Tossbag has helped thousand of people keep their jobs , people with safety critical positions when companies have tried to make redundancies in the name of profit with absolutely no thought to safety and if the RMT had not intervened in the last 10 years to stop corporate railway greed i can absolutely guarantee you that we would have seen another "Hatfield" or " Clapham Junction".
I have absolutely no doubt about that. None whatesoever. The trouble is that does not make sexy newspaper headlines.
When I was considering becoming a teacher people said, 'You won't get paid much, but you'll get a good pension'. What are we going to say to the graduates of the future, with over £50k of student debt who are thinking about entering the profession? On top of that, it's well documented that teachers have a pretty shocking life expectancy after retirement. Whetever your perceptions of teaching might be let me tell you it is a bloody draining job and the idea of standing in front of classes of kids day in day out into my late 60s is scary.
We're going on strike because the the teaching profession of the future is well and truly in the shit because of these reforms. Whatever the theoretical arguments about this issue might be, isn't it at least worth considering the outcomes?
My sister is an ex teacher who has had to retire due to MS. I have great respect for teachers but I do wonder if teachers perception of how hard their job is relative to others is based on their own assessment and stands up to scrutiny.
My sister went into teaching because it was a calling. She never went into it for the money or the pension arrangements.
I have been a governor of a state school until recently and I would say that other than newly qualified teachers, all of the teachers had better pay and a far superior pension than I have. This is the choice I made when I decided to give up the corporate gravy train and become self-employed. My income is lower now than it was ten years ago and I am working hard now to get my pension sorted. This was a choice I made. I still wouldn't want to go back to working for somebody else.
I don't believe that the calculus regarding those choosing whether or not to enter the teaching profession will be much affected in the long run by changes in the pension arrangements, especially as they may still be better than pensions available in the private sector. The first job I had, had a fantastic pension scheme. The decision for me to take that job had absolutely nothing to do with how good that aspect was.
Yep, I have made up my mind. Sorry if my opinion of "Super Bob" doesn't fit in with yours Beds, but it looks like we're gonna have to agree to disagree on this one.
I've no doubt that he must do some good for his members some (even most) of the time, otherwise he wouldn't still be in his job (with a "gold plated" pension, I wonder?). But he's all so predictable. If he just for once came out and said, "you know what, we can't defend that, they've put lives in danger and that's unacceptable" then I would probably have more respect for him.
Anyway, as someone said earlier, good debate and some very good points well made from all angles. I suspect not many will have changed their minds about anything having read all of this, but at least it hasn't degenerated into a slanging match and name calling amongst posters, "which is nice".
There are hundreds of cases every year where the RMT and Bob Crow will not and cannot defend a member if they have done something indefensible. ( and i know of a few where i work ) but he's hardly likey to highlight it is he ??? What purpose would that serve to the RMT , the Company or the member of staff? You just dont here of those cases.
Good debate anyway , Thats one thing we can agree on..
Yep, I have made up my mind. Sorry if my opinion of "Super Bob" doesn't fit in with yours Beds, but it looks like we're gonna have to agree to disagree on this one.
I've no doubt that he must do some good for his members some (even most) of the time, otherwise he wouldn't still be in his job (with a "gold plated" pension, I wonder?). But he's all so predictable. If he just for once came out and said, "you know what, we can't defend that, they've put lives in danger and that's unacceptable" then I would probably have more respect for him.
Anyway, as someone said earlier, good debate and some very good points well made from all angles. I suspect not many will have changed their minds about anything having read all of this, but at least it hasn't degenerated into a slanging match and name calling amongst posters, "which is nice".
Comments
Nothing here that I disagree with,
The banking/finance community demanded less regulation with the argument that they were best placed to regulate themselves and restrictions were costing them money. Our craven politicians caved in - and that's Labour and Conservative politicans. The question is why haven't they introduced stricter regulations or introduced taxes on the banking community. Surely it's got nothing to do with the several million quid that the City throw at the Conservative party every year? The Tories are not going to hurt the hand that feeds them, until then it's much easier to hit the NHS, education and the public sector. That makes for very good PR with the Tory press.
It does not matter what or how Bob Crow does things , the fact is Rupert Murdoch has it in for him and people like to believe what they read in The Sun.
The actual facts are that The RMT very rarely strike. They threaten to strike a lot but compared to other unions they dont use industrial action as much as The Tory press would like you to think.
The Tax payer does not fund my pension. I work for a private company.
However, if it doesn't include you it doesn't change my stance about those public sector workers that expect to hold the public to ransom.
Are the unions really part of the problem?
What else can they do? If they don't stand up for their members then where do they draw the line? And what's the point of joining a union if they aren't going to do anything to help their members?
Such as?
Whoever goes on strike is going to hurt somebody, or why are they workers in the first place? (yeah I know there are certain celebs who if they struck we would all love it) Workers are not slaves (yet), and if laws came in to punish strikers there would be co-ordinated action to all call in sick on the same day.
The workforce is one of the factors that ebb and flow in the 'marketplace', and their position is one that needs to be understood in order for any progress to be made.
I'm not sure that any of these tactics would hurt the government and would still be hitting the public.
At the end of the day if your job was in danger or someone was threating to f**k with your pension while the bankers get away scott free. Bankers that have raped this country and put it in the mess it is now , then you would do whatever you have to help your family and save your home regardless of who heads your union or how it might inconvenience other people. That might sound harsh but when the chips are down...
Having said that it must be a last resort and regardless of what some people about strike action, it usually is a last resort .
As has been said above by others, what is the point of being in a Union if they don't fight for your rights?
The fact that the Tory press hate Bob Crow means that he must be pissing them off and doing a great job for the members of his union - that's what he gets paid to do.
Bottom line is that trade unions are a lobby group, simple as that, they bargain on a collective basis for their members.
The real question is this, how come it is the trade unions - the only lobby group for working people in the country - that get called into account for their actions?
You want to see a really powerful workers' lobby group? Try the British Medical Association, the Institute of Directors, the British Chamber of Commerce or the British Bankers Association.
Never see those guys questioned in the Tory press, do you?
When I was considering becoming a teacher people said, 'You won't get paid much, but you'll get a good pension'. What are we going to say to the graduates of the future, with over £50k of student debt who are thinking about entering the profession? On top of that, it's well documented that teachers have a pretty shocking life expectancy after retirement. Whetever your perceptions of teaching might be let me tell you it is a bloody draining job and the idea of standing in front of classes of kids day in day out into my late 60s is scary.
We're going on strike because the the teaching profession of the future is well and truly in the shit because of these reforms. Whatever the theoretical arguments about this issue might be, isn't it at least worth considering the outcomes?
You want to see a really powerful workers' lobby group? Try the British Medical Association, the Institute of Directors, the British Chamber of Commerce or the British Bankers Association.
The worst of the lot is the Old Etonian Union.
The funny thing is , Ive met Bob Crow and he's nothing like the Millwall thug that he is portrayed as in the Tory press . He's an extremely clever man and he earns every penny of that large salary because as Ormiston addick says , He does a great job for his members and it's the £16 subs i pay a month that gives me piece of mind that if my company wants to make make me redundant then bring in foreign contractors for half the price , that big bad nasty Bob isn't going to let it happen and secretly most people would love to have that force behind them.
Sounds mental to me on the face of it.
That was a tube worker i believe. I dont know the story behind it so i cant really comment but the RMT would not normally ballot members to go on strike unless they felt that the London Underground had done something drastically wrong.
Note: They would not ballot all RMT members , just those members of staff that worked in his department. I dont work for London Underground so i dont know about this case.
Well you have obviously made your mind up about him .
All i can say is that it's easy highlighting cases like that because it makes good headlines ( and that web page is 7 years old!) but i what i do know for a fact this 24 Carat Tossbag has helped thousand of people keep their jobs , people with safety critical positions when companies have tried to make redundancies in the name of profit with absolutely no thought to safety and if the RMT had not intervened in the last 10 years to stop corporate railway greed i can absolutely guarantee you that we would have seen another "Hatfield" or " Clapham Junction".
I have absolutely no doubt about that. None whatesoever. The trouble is that does not make sexy newspaper headlines.
My sister is an ex teacher who has had to retire due to MS. I have great respect for teachers but I do wonder if teachers perception of how hard their job is relative to others is based on their own assessment and stands up to scrutiny.
My sister went into teaching because it was a calling. She never went into it for the money or the pension arrangements.
I have been a governor of a state school until recently and I would say that other than newly qualified teachers, all of the teachers had better pay and a far superior pension than I have. This is the choice I made when I decided to give up the corporate gravy train and become self-employed. My income is lower now than it was ten years ago and I am working hard now to get my pension sorted. This was a choice I made. I still wouldn't want to go back to working for somebody else.
I don't believe that the calculus regarding those choosing whether or not to enter the teaching profession will be much affected in the long run by changes in the pension arrangements, especially as they may still be better than pensions available in the private sector. The first job I had, had a fantastic pension scheme. The decision for me to take that job had absolutely nothing to do with how good that aspect was.
Final word.
There are hundreds of cases every year where the RMT and Bob Crow will not and cannot defend a member if they have done something indefensible. ( and i know of a few where i work ) but he's hardly likey to highlight it is he ??? What purpose would that serve to the RMT , the Company or the member of staff? You just dont here of those cases.
Good debate anyway , Thats one thing we can agree on..