We need to stop thinking in terms of we saved 6 billion here but spent 12 billion on Ireland or Greece or Aid initiatives. Global economics isn't that simplistic in as much as it is not like our personal bank accounts of pay in/pay out nominations. What are the consequences for the UK if Ireland/Greece/Portugal goes under? What would the lasting damage to the global economy be then? Unfortunately the answers to these questions are hard to put into simple figures and therefore the most the general public get to see is the figures shown in the tabloids and broadsheets.....who need figures like 6 billion in 12 billion out to justify their owners political stance.
Blimey BD, I only mentioned something I thought I heard in a radio debate. I didnt expect the Spanish Inquisition
I'm with you Floyd.
Because it's "Europe" (which is what the apologists prefer to call the EU) anything goes and if you say anything critical at all you are described as a Little Englander or similar.
It is perfectly reasonable to ask why we can seemingly afford to lob billions at a foreign currency when we cannot afford to give our own workers proper pensions after contributing all their working lives.
Our protests should be against the political class. They need to be made more accountable. No more immunity from prosecution for their corrupt actions.
An example would be putting the budget to referendum each year. Why are we buying weapons for India through the fluffily titled "overseas aid" budget whilst simultaneously scrapping our own independent defence capability and relying on the French as a stepping stone to an EU Army?
We need to fight the right enemy the treacherous, traitorous bastards in our Parliament, Civil Service and Town Halls who act in the interests of anybody but the British people they are supposed to serve.
Rant Over.
I didn't think I'd post on this discussion again but now that Len is proposing a revolutionary class war I thought I'd better chip in my support! I'm going on strike for all the reasons outlined by the links of Muttley, Beds, Bournemouth etc - there I've said it now
unless any leaving the Euro is done at a time and choosing, the speculators will jump in a wreck everything and bring all of it tumbling down into the sh*t, mind you its reminiscent of the ERM the world didn't end, but it wasn't fun as I recall
On the BBC last night, they said that BAA systems (the UK defence manufacturer) earns £4bn in exports.
Pretty impressive stuff, till I heard that the trade gap is £30bn !
We have to stop airfreighting raspberries from Ecuador / tulips from Kenya, and get UK workers working on British based projects, so that we can get our own house in order.
Not interested in Greece, Spain, Rep of Ireland, Libya, Iraq, Afganistan, or Africa.
If the banking crisis has taught us anything, it's that, anyone who thought the downsizing of their home would release enough equity for retirement is mistaken, and anyone who thinks there is any money in the Government pension pot going forward is also mistaken.
Time to pull up the drawbridge and start looking after Number 1, as a country and as individuals, until the economic situation improves.
Slightly off-topioc but I thought I would point out that 95% of the goods in our shops (including raspberries and tulips) are actually sent by sea. Air accounts for less than 1% and is strictly reserved for high end small goods which are not shipped en masse.
Because of the great amount of goods we received by the sea it is often cheaper to get something from China or New Zealand than it is to get it by road from say Liverpool to London. As wel as being much more environmentally friendly.
Sadly as an Island nation we have completely forgotton the amount we are reliant on the sea.
I'm not confusing but do understand your point. The trick was to avoid the worst of the credit crunch and recover quickly as Germany managed.
Again I hate to pick you up on another point but it is really far too simplistic to compare our economy and Germany's economy. Germany is a powerhouse industrial economy with relatively low levels of home ownership and personal debt. The UK economy has hitherto been driven by completely different factors. A massive over-bloated financial sector, large consumer led spending growth based on inflated property prices and high levels of personal debt.
The levers that Germany have been able to pull has resulted in real economic growth as they are actually making things. Our economy requires re-balancing so that our industrial and non financial private sector base is able to grow. That is what is happening.
And to think in the 1950s we were the workshop of the world.
I'm not confusing but do understand your point. The trick was to avoid the worst of the credit crunch and recover quickly as Germany managed.
Again I hate to pick you up on another point but it is really far too simplistic to compare our economy and Germany's economy. Germany is a powerhouse industrial economy with relatively low levels of home ownership and personal debt. The UK economy has hitherto been driven by completely different factors. A massive over-bloated financial sector, large consumer led spending growth based on inflated property prices and high levels of personal debt.
The levers that Germany have been able to pull has resulted in real economic growth as they are actually making things. Our economy requires re-balancing so that our industrial and non financial private sector base is able to grow. That is what is happening.
And to think in the 1950s we were the workshop of the world.
We had it all but managed to give it all away.
Is it a coincidence that in the period when we were being over taken by Germany in terms of manufacturing, we were having to pay huge sums of money to fight an arms race and Germany wasn't allowed an army?
On the BBC last night, they said that BAA systems (the UK defence manufacturer) earns £4bn in exports.
Pretty impressive stuff, till I heard that the trade gap is £30bn !
We have to stop airfreighting raspberries from Ecuador / tulips from Kenya, and get UK workers working on British based projects, so that we can get our own house in order.
Not interested in Greece, Spain, Rep of Ireland, Libya, Iraq, Afganistan, or Africa.
If the banking crisis has taught us anything, it's that, anyone who thought the downsizing of their home would release enough equity for retirement is mistaken, and anyone who thinks there is any money in the Government pension pot going forward is also mistaken.
Time to pull up the drawbridge and start looking after Number 1, as a country and as individuals, until the economic situation improves.
Yes the programme was quite interesting, and did give a view not normally expressed!
I think that random examples like McClaren, and the bike manufacturer, were very enlightning , and the GKN example I had not heard of before!
Not sure that exploiting the Chinese was a particularly good basis to use for mass production!, and as the presenter claimed 'they do it no better' even on that mass scale the labour cost significant but not an overwhelming factor.
The Leyland example of appauling industrial relations, did not mention the appauling design and build quality, of some of the worst cars to ever have graced the roads!. The Allegro,1100, and 'rustbucket rovers' compared to what they replaced, and there wonderful sportscar marques of Truimph, and MG, let alone Landrover proved that you needed to provide value for money, good build quality, and excellent design, coupled with state of the art production shows the way forward something that the next programme claims to feature. BAA need to showcase there achievements, No good being 'coy' about the arms business!. Develop the defence side of the industry!. A decent 'friendly fire' system for the Americans might be a start!
Jeremy Clarkson hit the nail on the head on the 3 words that kileld the once proud British car industry - 'That will do'. Actually the Allegro, Princess and Marina were dreadful cars with terrible build quality but actually designwise they had potential. You could see that what the designer was trying to achieve was somehow lost in the that will do production.
It is sad- look at the British aviation industry - governments in other countries supported their industries but ours of all colours were happy to let then go. Thatcher was a big villain but so where many others. There was a time when British people would always try to by British but for a whole variety of reasons we couldn't care less anymore. It is very sad and something monumental would have to happen to change things. A total rebalancing of the capitalist systems that currently drive us.
I am not sure that any prime minister, of whatever party, would have been able to sustain the coal and automobile industries. In fact its pretty certain they were unsustainable. It is fashionable to blame it all on Thatcher, and goodness knows her rule was divisive, but their demise was inevitable.
Blair was funded to the tune of hundreds of thousands by Lakshmi Mittal, and Blair then promoted his company ahead of British competition at a time when 6,000 jobs were lost at Corus, formerly British steel, yet seems to escape any criticism of his actions.
Ecclestone's million pound donation to labour of course is another matter..
The French and Italians kept their car industries going and invested to improve them because they realised that whilst they might lose money, there were benefits in terms of employment . Basically they saw the bigger picture. Fiat was as sick as BL for a long time but is thriving now. Having said that, the way the british motor industry was run by Bosses and Unions was a complete joke and those involved in the demise should be ashamed of themselves.
Should have explained better - the car industry helps the steel industry - the parts industry (Lucas), local shops - workers spend money. Thatcher never looked beyond the one page - losing money has to go.
Jeremy Clarkson hit the nail on the head on the 3 words that kileld the once proud British car industry - 'That will do'. Actually the Allegro, Princess and Marina were dreadful cars with terrible build quality but actually designwise they had potential. You could see that what the designer was trying to achieve was somehow lost in the that will do production.
Yes I saw that issue, I think Clarkson was being 'ironic', the man who used to drive an GT 40 into white city, as his town car...........
Hamster rides a motorbike, I think May uses the tube!.......
Marina they used an italian design house called ital I recall.
The Allegro, or aggro was referred to as the flying pig...... I will let you decide why, but yes the design was compromised.
And as for the Princess, the mobile cheese wedge...... because it stank in design terms.
Issigonis had an off day with the 1100/1300, but there worse cars around, although I was a ford man.
The mini was still my first car, why they screwed with John Cooper, and let the design drag on...... well you have seen the results that BMW have had, and the new MG looks half decent, just 20 years too late in marketing terms.In car design it is about capturing the moment, you have to be brave, BL spent it's years stiffling design , and build quality. Frankly they had contempt for the Japanesse and German, at least in design and build quality after a dodgy start.
Actually, the Austin Ambassador, which was a Ital like job done on the princess showed what the Princess sould have been. It was done at a time when the Princess should have been replaced but did show that it could have been a lot better. The 2 litre wasn't a bad engine and the hydragas was decent suspension for the time and with a hatchback and better trim and build qulaity, the Princess could have actually been decent. I liked the way the windscreen wipers were aerodynamiclly obscured by the bonnet - rare
Ital didn't design the Marina- they revamed it when it was past it's sell by date in the 80s to give it a few years extra life - which wasn't entirely successful athough Ital were a good design house and didn't do a bad job- there were more modern alternatives. I have always thought that the Allegro with a decent engine, proper steering wheel, nice trim, and hatchback would have been a class leader. Unfortunately it had a rubbish engine- terrible trim - the vanden plas was laughable - and was desined in the hatch back shape without a hatchback!
The French and Italians kept their car industries going and invested to improve them because they realised that whilst they might lose money, there were benefits in terms of employment . Basically they saw the bigger picture. Fiat was as sick as BL for a long time but is thriving now. Having said that, the way the british motor industry was run by Bosses and Unions was a complete joke and those involved in the demise should be ashamed of themselves.
Bing - how do you know the tax avoidance figures aren't anything like as high as those claimed? Maybe they're higher?
I don't know, my point was that by definition nobody knows. That was the minor point of my argument, the main point was that governments actually don't want to (or can't) deal with the major tax avoidance because they calculate that it would cost the country too much in return if they did. On the face of it the figure banded about for avoidance/non collection would make total sense to recover. The fact that Labour and Tory/Coalition alike only go after a small fraction is axiomatic.
Bing - how do you know the tax avoidance figures aren't anything like as high as those claimed? Maybe they're higher?
I don't know, my point was that by definition nobody knows. That was the minor point of my argument, the main point was that governments actually don't want to (or can't) deal with the major tax avoidance because they calculate that it would cost the country too much in return if they did. On the face of it the figure banded about for avoidance/non collection would make total sense to recover. The fact that Labour and Tory/Coalition alike only go after a small fraction is axiomatic.
Its peoples right to protest , many people do not belong to unions or have unions in their workplace myself included , i can sympathise with people having to pay increased pension contributions , but i am not prepared to pay extra through my tax to pay for other peoples pensions, as i will get no pension anyway.
If i go sick in my job i do not get paid for it , i only get paid for the hours i work , if i work extra hours as i do , i do not get paid for them, i think the country should grow up , stop moaning and get on with it and people in a job should consider themselves lucky to have one.
Sorry if you don't like my views , but you did ask.
Comments
Anyway have we signed anyone yet
Slightly off-topioc but I thought I would point out that 95% of the goods in our shops (including raspberries and tulips) are actually sent by sea. Air accounts for less than 1% and is strictly reserved for high end small goods which are not shipped en masse.
Because of the great amount of goods we received by the sea it is often cheaper to get something from China or New Zealand than it is to get it by road from say Liverpool to London. As wel as being much more environmentally friendly.
Sadly as an Island nation we have completely forgotton the amount we are reliant on the sea.
And to think in the 1950s we were the workshop of the world.
We had it all but managed to give it all away.
Outside the Euro, cheaper and the same sun and sea, more or less.
Jeremy Clarkson hit the nail on the head on the 3 words that kileld the once proud British car industry - 'That will do'. Actually the Allegro, Princess and Marina were dreadful cars with terrible build quality but actually designwise they had potential. You could see that what the designer was trying to achieve was somehow lost in the that will do production.
It is sad- look at the British aviation industry - governments in other countries supported their industries but ours of all colours were happy to let then go. Thatcher was a big villain but so where many others. There was a time when British people would always try to by British but for a whole variety of reasons we couldn't care less anymore. It is very sad and something monumental would have to happen to change things. A total rebalancing of the capitalist systems that currently drive us.
Did we?
And at what price?
Blair was funded to the tune of hundreds of thousands by Lakshmi Mittal, and Blair then promoted his company ahead of British competition at a time when 6,000 jobs were lost at Corus, formerly British steel, yet seems to escape any criticism of his actions.
Ecclestone's million pound donation to labour of course is another matter..
Things aren't as bad as they seem chaps!
After all our politicians are elected by us and work for us don't they?
So just accept having your pensions taken away like good little public sector workers because we can afford this http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/danielhannan/100092466/as-the-bailouts-pile-up-britains-subscription-to-the-imf-doubles/ to bail the Euro out by stealth so that slimy toerag Cameron can have a photo opportunity in the paper looking all statesmanlike and say that the UK will not contribute to an EU Greek bailout doesn't mention the IMF though does he?
Like I've said before on this thread it is the traitorous political class v the people which is our real battle...
This
I don't know, my point was that by definition nobody knows. That was the minor point of my argument, the main point was that governments actually don't want to (or can't) deal with the major tax avoidance because they calculate that it would cost the country too much in return if they did. On the face of it the figure banded about for avoidance/non collection would make total sense to recover. The fact that Labour and Tory/Coalition alike only go after a small fraction is axiomatic.