Discussion/phone in about this on 5 Live this morning but caught only 15 minutes or so of it.
2 of the bereaved mothers both adamant that all the facts be made public knowledge but AFTER the families concerned have had access .
Others ringing in stated that only culpable people would not want the true facts to be published.
Signed.
You'll always get these weird conspiracy theory people and the BBC wants to show both sides of the story. Hopefully they were just trying to get on the radio.
When Kelvin Mc Kenzie came to the bbc three years ago I walked out it was a private editors session called the news festival.
I can also confirm that several other bbc people also did the same thing.
Of course if I had stayed I could have questioned him about the Hillsborough events, and what was his evidence and wether he regretted his actions, but having heard that he maintains his position and opinion he probably would have failed to answer the question. It was also on the question of radical Muslim news reporting, needless to say I am informed it was a lively session.
As the BBC held these sessions under 'Chatham house rules' you were not allowed to report these session and attribute quotes from the people taking part.
Why do you think he made it all up, I know it sells papers but that sort of stupidity doesn't make sense! To 'quote' policement as well, was there any misbehaviour going on? I've never noticed anything on all the footage I've seen, but always wondered why this got printed!
This is what happens when unsubstantiated rumours quickly become fact - as the saying goes a lie can travel half-way around the world while the truth is putting its boots on. He was fed a story and in true soaraway Sun style sensationalised it and made it into something it wasn't. If he was half-way sensible he would spiked the story, at the very least he should have looked at the photos and film of the tragedy. Since there were cameramen and photographers all over Hillsborough then it should have been easy to produce the evidence to back up the headlines. That there was no photographic evidence whatsoever should have sounded an alam bell.
Discussion/phone in about this on 5 Live this morning but caught only 15 minutes or so of it.
2 of the bereaved mothers both adamant that all the facts be made public knowledge but AFTER the families concerned have had access .
Others ringing in stated that only culpable people would not want the true facts to be published.
Signed.
Which does not happen with FOI requests. FOI information has to be given to the person who requested it, which was not the familes or the committee as I understand it.
It is seperate to the formal request to governement that they have made.
Sorry but I just think this petition will delay the whole thing and whatever people reply, that cant be proved one way or the orther now as it is done.
The other thing that always surprisesd me is the MacKenzie thing. He was editor of the Sun at the time and made the shocking decision to run with the unsubstantiated stories of fan behaviour. But he was not the reporter. Why have we never found out who the reporter was who actually told MacKenzie that this was a possible angle and gathered the actual quotes?
I stand by my original comment, i was born in 1971 and i was at hillsbro a few months before the disaster watching andy jones make his debut for us, in fact i sat those same seats. If you dont have a ticket dont turn up drunk and force you way into the ground. Of course the police made mistakes but this would not have happened if the so called fans without tickets had stayed away. Yes there the facts should be out in the open and it it sad for the familys involved.
Since we all agree - I think - that the interests and feelings of the families of the 96 are paramount, this statement should pretty much settle the question of what they think about the petition.
I stand by my original comment, i was born in 1971 and i was at hillsbro a few months before the disaster watching andy jones make his debut for us, in fact i sat those same seats. If you dont have a ticket dont turn up drunk and force you way into the ground. Of course the police made mistakes but this would not have happened if the so called fans without tickets had stayed away. Yes there the facts should be out in the open and it it sad for the familys involved.
I stand by my original comment, i was born in 1971 and i was at hillsbro a few months before the disaster watching andy jones make his debut for us, in fact i sat those same seats. If you dont have a ticket dont turn up drunk and force you way into the ground. Of course the police made mistakes but this would not have happened if the so called fans without tickets had stayed away. Yes there the facts should be out in the open and it it sad for the familys involved.
The ignorance of your posts is staggering. Do yourself a favour - go and read the Taylor inquiry. Also, I find it surprising you were sitting in seats that didn't exist - a neat trick indeed.
This is the damage cretins like Mackenzie can do - I bet there are still millions of people otu there who still believe the lies the police drip-fed him for him to repeat verbatim to an audience of 10 million people. This is why the man is scum.
It's fine to have an opinion, but you must base it on the facts at hand. You are right that too many fans seemed to have turned up without tickets for the match intent on getting into the ground, but the poor stewarding and policing, and lack of decent signage exacerbated the problem and point is that even if there had only been fans with tickets this tragedy could still have happened.
Incidentally one of the reasons given for the late arrival of so many Liverpool fans was roadworks on the M62, you could say that they should have left earlier which is a moot point, but that's life.
The police didn't recognise the tragedy that was unfolding and rather than delay kick-off and calm things down they added fuel to the problem by ordering the opening of Gate C and in through that gate streamed an estimated 2,000 fans who piled straight into already over-crowded pens. The point is that many of these fans had tickets for elsewhere but were directed through this gate regardless. So you can see that the point about ticketless fans is a factor, but in the scheme of things a minor one. Who ordered the gates to be opened? The OB, yet officially afterwards they blamed the Liverpool fans for forcing their way through.
Adding to BFRs many good points is the one I've been reminded of, that the main reason the fans didnt have tickets is that Liverpool were allocated 6000 less tickets than Forest, a situation as indefensible then as it would be today
Adding to BFRs many good points is the one I've been reminded of, that the main reason the fans didnt have tickets is that Liverpool were allocated 6000 less tickets than Forest, a situation as indefensible then as it would be today
I think that decision was made because it was thought it would be easier to funnel Liverpool fans in/out and then back to Liverpool from that end rather than the other side of the ground. Bear in mind that in 1989 the prospect of large scale hooliganism was still ever present at many grounds and another rumour was that as some Liverpool fans were trying to escape the police were preventing them thinking they were trying to storm the pitch. Even after the game was suspended the police formed a line across the pitch in the belief that fighting would break out between fans.
The whole thing was a shambles from beginning to sad end and the role of the Sun in splashing a headline reading "The Truth" across page one has served to perpetuate the fallacies.
the sad thing about it all, is that that episode showed how poor the policing at footie was , many a game did you feel threatend with the amount of people sheperded into small enclosures to prevent violence ,
a tragedy in every sense of the word poor people losing their lives in the name of football is a tragedy,
questions need to be answered and people held accountable but ultimately it wont heal or fix the heart ache
Liverpool fans although victims were not entirely faultless but they were not imo the reason or should they have been held to blame,
poor policing
poor decision making
niavity in its largest scale with some of the decisions made,
ultimately
The Police
The FA
the fans all have a shared eliment in what unfolded and changed the face of football in this country for ever
Adding to BFRs many good points is the one I've been reminded of, that the main reason the fans didnt have tickets is that Liverpool were allocated 6000 less tickets than Forest, a situation as indefensible then as it would be today
That's ridiculous, drunk fans are more to blame than that and as I've previous stated a natural independent investigation deemed the drunk fans as not a significant factor.
Gate C was opened because the fans were climbing over then fence, this was probably because the police didn't have the power at the time to delay a kick off.
An interesting thing about the Taylor report is that he doesn't mention removing terracing and also recommends that ticket prices are kept reasonable!
YOUR A TWAT LEROY, dont you remember the pictures of the liverpool fans pulling up the fans below. The seats are above and you could stand below.
Ignoring the abuse, the fact remains that you weren't 'in the same seats', were you? Because as far as I'm aware, 96 people weren't crushed to death in the seats - they were crushed to death on the terraces below them. Besides - it's more than immaterial to your main argument - that the Liverpool fans were somehow to blame for the inpetitude of the police and football authorities, and deserved to have almost inconceivable lies printed about them by a man serving the disgraceful agenda of the government of the day.
Adding fuel to the fire but I'd like to see full disclosure of the people who arrived at the grounds without tickets.
There were many factors to this tragedy and if any one of them had been removed it would probably not have happened and yet it is only the authrorities who have to justify their actions on the day.
Really, you like walking around with a can of petrol don't you? I wonder why?
The people who died all had tickets. They paid good money. Those under scrutiny were those who are paid by us through our taxes or through the ticket money to do a job which ensures that we do not die as a result of (paying to) attend a football match.
Comments
This is what happens when unsubstantiated rumours quickly become fact - as the saying goes a lie can travel half-way around the world while the truth is putting its boots on. He was fed a story and in true soaraway Sun style sensationalised it and made it into something it wasn't. If he was half-way sensible he would spiked the story, at the very least he should have looked at the photos and film of the tragedy. Since there were cameramen and photographers all over Hillsborough then it should have been easy to produce the evidence to back up the headlines. That there was no photographic evidence whatsoever should have sounded an alam bell.
Which does not happen with FOI requests. FOI information has to be given to the person who requested it, which was not the familes or the committee as I understand it.
It is seperate to the formal request to governement that they have made.
Sorry but I just think this petition will delay the whole thing and whatever people reply, that cant be proved one way or the orther now as it is done.
The other thing that always surprisesd me is the MacKenzie thing. He was editor of the Sun at the time and made the shocking decision to run with the unsubstantiated stories of fan behaviour. But he was not the reporter. Why have we never found out who the reporter was who actually told MacKenzie that this was a possible angle and gathered the actual quotes?
This is the damage cretins like Mackenzie can do - I bet there are still millions of people otu there who still believe the lies the police drip-fed him for him to repeat verbatim to an audience of 10 million people. This is why the man is scum.
It's fine to have an opinion, but you must base it on the facts at hand. You are right that too many fans seemed to have turned up without tickets for the match intent on getting into the ground, but the poor stewarding and policing, and lack of decent signage exacerbated the problem and point is that even if there had only been fans with tickets this tragedy could still have happened.
Incidentally one of the reasons given for the late arrival of so many Liverpool fans was roadworks on the M62, you could say that they should have left earlier which is a moot point, but that's life.
The police didn't recognise the tragedy that was unfolding and rather than delay kick-off and calm things down they added fuel to the problem by ordering the opening of Gate C and in through that gate streamed an estimated 2,000 fans who piled straight into already over-crowded pens. The point is that many of these fans had tickets for elsewhere but were directed through this gate regardless. So you can see that the point about ticketless fans is a factor, but in the scheme of things a minor one. Who ordered the gates to be opened? The OB, yet officially afterwards they blamed the Liverpool fans for forcing their way through.
I think that decision was made because it was thought it would be easier to funnel Liverpool fans in/out and then back to Liverpool from that end rather than the other side of the ground. Bear in mind that in 1989 the prospect of large scale hooliganism was still ever present at many grounds and another rumour was that as some Liverpool fans were trying to escape the police were preventing them thinking they were trying to storm the pitch. Even after the game was suspended the police formed a line across the pitch in the belief that fighting would break out between fans.
The whole thing was a shambles from beginning to sad end and the role of the Sun in splashing a headline reading "The Truth" across page one has served to perpetuate the fallacies.
the sad thing about it all, is that that episode showed how poor the policing at footie was , many a game did you feel threatend with the amount of people sheperded into small enclosures to prevent violence ,
a tragedy in every sense of the word poor people losing their lives in the name of football is a tragedy,
questions need to be answered and people held accountable but ultimately it wont heal or fix the heart ache
Liverpool fans although victims were not entirely faultless but they were not imo the reason or should they have been held to blame,
poor policing
poor decision making
niavity in its largest scale with some of the decisions made,
ultimately
The Police
The FA
the fans all have a shared eliment in what unfolded and changed the face of football in this country for ever
RIP the 96
Gate C was opened because the fans were climbing over then fence, this was probably because the police didn't have the power at the time to delay a kick off.
An interesting thing about the Taylor report is that he doesn't mention removing terracing and also recommends that ticket prices are kept reasonable!
Adding fuel to the fire but I'd like to see full disclosure of the people who arrived at the grounds without tickets.
There were many factors to this tragedy and if any one of them had been removed it would probably not have happened and yet it is only the authrorities who have to justify their actions on the day.