If they are Irish, they are entitled to be in this country.
Yes indeed, but my point is - are they supposed to be viewed as a special case ?
They don't appear to be destitute or in personal danger, so what is our obligation to them ?
Isn't it a bit like me owning in a mansion in Bromley and parking a caravan on the Old Trafford pitch and asking locals to respect my human rights and right to be there, whilst saying I have nowhere else to go ?
Surely someone can't just do as they please with total disregard for the environment, legislation, local sentiment, etc and then just claim persecution/human rights/cultural differences/ etc.
This is a recipe for anarchy - which might explain the extra supporters that have appeared at Dale Farm in recent weeks.
The illegal part of this settlement must be removed and the greenbelt land restored, otherwise common sense will have taken another hefty blow on it's way to total rarity.
Muttley a lot of decent points here, you conclude they are not being (did you mean to say badly?) treated the way they are because they are travellers, but because they have not played by the rules expected of the rest of us.
However many people look at the example of one sector of one group, and then tar all others with the same brush. I have, shock horror, met some lovely sweet Millwall and Crystal Palace fans, Muslims who would do anything for you, nice travelling folk and so on. The danger in hysteria is that the innocent person will suffer because of attitudes to others they are similar to.
It would not take much for a terminally stupid, but easily influenced hysterical thug to petrol bomb a caravan because they felt 'justified' due to the tenor of the times. The recent bout of looting and so on was a kind of group hysteria, in which participants saw themselves as justified because they were 'getting their taxes back', or 'only stealing from the rich and those who can afford it', or 'showing their muscle', or 'making a political point about police'. Whatever the flimsy justification, the result was damage, mayhem, and the death of some innocent people.
If we don't question the current currency of hysteria regarding some travellers, then some folks will feel righteous in behaving very badly indeed.
Good point - what I am saying is that I haven't got good experiences but a few bad ones. That doesn't mean there aren't any good ones just beacuse we don't mix we tend to only see the bad impact but I find it hard to ignore the incidents I mentioned plus others -for instance a travelling boy in my sons school who just goes about hitting the other kids and destroying their work (that's another). I am the sort of person who would change my view with some positive evidence but it is hard to ignore real incidents you have witnessed.
I don't condone people attacking them or being violent towards them - part of the problem I have is that they don't obey the rules of our society - the fabric we all have to obey whteher we agree with it or not so I don't condone weak minded people breaking the same society's rules and taking things into their own hands. I'm sure travellers are surviving in their own way and it depends on what side of the fence you sit, what your views will be.
I have a lot of personal experience trying to trace the 'owners' of vehicles used by travellers. Virtually impossible due to the shifting them around among that community so frequently, their relucance to register them and the ease with which they use a false/another name when quedtioned by the authorities. Im yet to see one on anything other than GB plates though or reports of them doing so.
its because of people like you seth that it has taken 10 years+ to remove the parasites, they should have been sent home much much sooner.Back to their 5 bedroomed houses
its because of people like you seth that it has taken 10 years+ to remove the parasites, they should have been sent home much much sooner.Back to their 5 bedroomed houses
YOU WHAT?
What do you mean 'people like me'?
You have never met me, and know hardly anything about me beyond what I post here.
Are you suggesting I am involved with the planning/application process in Basildon?
Your phrase 'people like you' says it all, a wave of the arm definition of swathes of people that you seem to package up and mentally label. Like the people on Dale Farm I am an individual, as you are raymondao. Perhaps you need to get some perspective, let alone manners.
The gullible (or just downright stupid) people that have been drawn into defending the 'rights' of these chancers really demonstrate how many of the left wing of this country have finally disappeared up their own backsides. Using arguments about equality to demand special treatment (there's a logical fallacy for you) for a self determined minority is moronic enough, but making emotional appeals about homelessness and discrimination on behalf of people who own the sort of properties abroad that a normal working, tax paying mug such as myself can only dream about is sickening.
You could bet large chunks of your anatomy that if hard working, tax paying mugs such as myself had tried building something without planning permission it would have taken considerably less time than ten bloody years for the law to be upheld - more like ten sodding months, I can imagine. So, remind me - who's being discriminated against again?
Does anyone else remember when the 'travellers' moved into the old Chiltonian biscuit factory site in Lee? It would have been back in the early 1980's, I remember that the site went from being deserted to being full of caravans almost overnight.
They seemed to be there for quite a while, probably around a year or more, and used to go to mass at Our Lady of Lourdes RC Church on Burnt Ash Hill, much to the consternation of the locals.
Well we in Eastbourne get the "travellers" on a regular basis, and its probably a coinscidence, but the crime rate goes up and stolen cars end up being found near to where the "travellers" happen to be. All of which Seth would say is labeling them all with the same brush,
"we forget about the good ones" true there must be, its just wellllllllllllllllllllllll its so difficult to find any.
As for me well maybe not getting any dinner money for months and having the crap kicked out of me FOR NOT BEING A TRAVELLER in the first 4 months of Sec school has tarnished my thoughts of the dear old gypsy community.Maybe the fact that i then stopped even going to school -- got caught -- got canned-- felt like i had let me mum and dad down---that i dont have a high opinion of them. There were 3 differant families in our school they all mugged none gypsys. They stood outside the school dinning hall and did it-------the teachers knew------ they did nothing. One day(given up trying to have a school dinner) i was standing there eating a bag of crisps one of the scum took it-----------and my life changed in an instant. I smashed the unwashed lump, he went down and i trod on his throat.Im sure i would had killed him there and then but was pulled off. I was taken away to the Head Teachers office where i got the 6 of the best for fighting-----.I was told that the whole family would be waiting for me after school. Strange thing was they didnt turn up--i did -- on my own ---i was 12 years old------12. They left me alone from that day, it was far easier to pick on someone that didnt hit back.
The school did nothing.
The above forms part of their collective mostly fabricated culture.
As for Dale Farm please please please let these loverly travellers rack up on the "lefts" collective door step.
The 100% true statement from this thread is "Tax paying mugs". Sometimes you have to wonder way you have for 35 years.
well that is what a debate is !, you have an opinion and someone else has an opiinion, and you discuss the matter in hand.
If you look up debate in the dictionary , thats what it says. Thankfully I am a realist, and i know when a freeloader is milking the system.(thankfully)
I would consider myself leaning to the left but have made negative comments about them. All it does is mean is that you try to look deeper and don't accept the rubbish the press might tell you. I know for instance that crime increases but I don't know that these people have 5 bedroom mansions back home. Maybe one or two exceptions do (I don't know as don't you) but the way the ignorant allow themselves to be taken in doesn't do the debate any favours. The conservatives nearly won the last election by pedalling lies the electorate lapped up because they didn't care for the regime in power and we should as reasonable people guard ourselves against being manipulated- whatever our leanings. That isn't being soft, it is being wise.
My negativity surrounding travellers comes from my experiences, not imagined or things I have read in the sun. In these austere times, the bankers and city workers who caused the mess we are in (watch the film doc Inside Job btw) still have their top jobs and salaries and the hard working and increasingly poorer middle and working classess fight each other over the scraps. Privitised industries that shoud serve the people - Utilities- railways etc... screw them to make greater profits - people are losing their jobs and not getting pay rises. People's rights are being eroded and the skillfull bit is that it gets the people worst hit turning on each other. The way being left learning is portrayed as as a negative -when it is basically about caring for people and wanting greater equlaity in society - shows how effective the propaganda machine is. When you see 40 top economists (on top slaries) writing to a paper to say we need to cut the 50p tax rate to stimulate the economy - but these same economists didn't write open letters warning of what could happen due to corporate and city greed illustrates my point.
I am a capitalist but a social capitalist - the worst excessess of greed have to be curbed and the economy should serve all the people not just a few. A bit off topic but not really - if something is wrong (dale farm) it needs to be said but fairly and not hysterically and people need to undersatnd that there are complicated underlayers. Rant caused by Seth being accused of being a lefty (like it is a bad thing) because he is trying to be fair and objective -it gets my goat - sorry.
Comments
Muttley a lot of decent points here, you conclude they are not being (did you mean to say badly?) treated the way they are because they are travellers, but because they have not played by the rules expected of the rest of us.
However many people look at the example of one sector of one group, and then tar all others with the same brush. I have, shock horror, met some lovely sweet Millwall and Crystal Palace fans, Muslims who would do anything for you, nice travelling folk and so on. The danger in hysteria is that the innocent person will suffer because of attitudes to others they are similar to.
It would not take much for a terminally stupid, but easily influenced hysterical thug to petrol bomb a caravan because they felt 'justified' due to the tenor of the times. The recent bout of looting and so on was a kind of group hysteria, in which participants saw themselves as justified because they were 'getting their taxes back', or 'only stealing from the rich and those who can afford it', or 'showing their muscle', or 'making a political point about police'. Whatever the flimsy justification, the result was damage, mayhem, and the death of some innocent people.
If we don't question the current currency of hysteria regarding some travellers, then some folks will feel righteous in behaving very badly indeed.
I don't condone people attacking them or being violent towards them - part of the problem I have is that they don't obey the rules of our society - the fabric we all have to obey whteher we agree with it or not so I don't condone weak minded people breaking the same society's rules and taking things into their own hands. I'm sure travellers are surviving in their own way and it depends on what side of the fence you sit, what your views will be.
Can you imagine the scene when the travellers go back to their caravans and this lot are left there?
Maybe they called 999?
"Well it's like this, I need a fire engine to cut this lump of concrete off my arms. What you can't get here till when . . ."
YOU WHAT?
What do you mean 'people like me'?
You have never met me, and know hardly anything about me beyond what I post here.
Are you suggesting I am involved with the planning/application process in Basildon?
Your phrase 'people like you' says it all, a wave of the arm definition of swathes of people that you seem to package up and mentally label. Like the people on Dale Farm I am an individual, as you are raymondao. Perhaps you need to get some perspective, let alone manners.
its my opinion mate, its allowed
Bigstemarra you have hit the nail on the head, if you ever run for parliament you have my vote
Does anyone else remember when the 'travellers' moved into the old Chiltonian biscuit factory site in Lee? It would have been back in the early 1980's, I remember that the site went from being deserted to being full of caravans almost overnight.
They seemed to be there for quite a while, probably around a year or more, and used to go to mass at Our Lady of Lourdes RC Church on Burnt Ash Hill, much to the consternation of the locals.
And seth my manners are in tact, so is my eyesight, and my perspective, perhaps you should look at yours ?
Boooooooooo
I would have thought being admin Dazzler would have known better!
We are grown up ! its called a debate !!!
The one show finished hours ago
Hours past your bedtime - no buns for you I'm afraid
what if i say "bagsey"
sometimes grown ups like to have a grown up healthy debate
It's not like any debate that I've ever been involved in. I must one of those people like Seth, ( Thankfully).
well that is what a debate is !, you have an opinion and someone else has an opiinion, and you discuss the matter in hand.
If you look up debate in the dictionary , thats what it says. Thankfully I am a realist, and i know when a freeloader is milking the system.(thankfully)
Is a bunfight not a party?
Confused. Maidstone.
My negativity surrounding travellers comes from my experiences, not imagined or things I have read in the sun. In these austere times, the bankers and city workers who caused the mess we are in (watch the film doc Inside Job btw) still have their top jobs and salaries and the hard working and increasingly poorer middle and working classess fight each other over the scraps. Privitised industries that shoud serve the people - Utilities- railways etc... screw them to make greater profits - people are losing their jobs and not getting pay rises. People's rights are being eroded and the skillfull bit is that it gets the people worst hit turning on each other. The way being left learning is portrayed as as a negative -when it is basically about caring for people and wanting greater equlaity in society - shows how effective the propaganda machine is. When you see 40 top economists (on top slaries) writing to a paper to say we need to cut the 50p tax rate to stimulate the economy - but these same economists didn't write open letters warning of what could happen due to corporate and city greed illustrates my point.
I am a capitalist but a social capitalist - the worst excessess of greed have to be curbed and the economy should serve all the people not just a few. A bit off topic but not really - if something is wrong (dale farm) it needs to be said but fairly and not hysterically and people need to undersatnd that there are complicated underlayers. Rant caused by Seth being accused of being a lefty (like it is a bad thing) because he is trying to be fair and objective -it gets my goat - sorry.