I find him less frustrating that Green. I dont think anyone can question Wagstaff's 100% effort (except perhaps on Tuesday night as i didn't see him do much) but i've always liked the fact he stamps his foot and waves his arms in frustration because it to me shows that he cares and is frustrated that he can't make a difference for whatever reason. I dont see Green make those gestures, which doesn't mean that he doesn't care, i just don't feel like he does as much. ultimately, we have no idea what the're thinking or how much they care it is down to how we interpret how they behave and which is why we can all disagree about our conclusions.
If you watch the goals compilation on this site, you'll see alot of our early season goals came from Wagstaff and Wiggins getting to the byeline, and cutting back for strikers to run onto. Is it any suprise that BWP has dried up when at the moment our focus has changed to flick ons from Kermogant, or early balls from the deep from Green? Add Wagstaff's knack of weighing in with goals, and he's worth a place for me, the onlyproblem is, as seen on Tuesday is he's seriously not match fit.
ultimately, we have no idea what the're thinking or how much they care it is down to how we interpret how they behave and which is why we can all disagree about our conclusions.
Player you like complains to officials = passion
Player you think is "shit" complains to officials = acting like a little girl/bad attitude.
I agree with others that in the end this debate will be over in a few months when we look towards Championship football as not sure either can make the step up especially Green.
Green is technically superior but goes missing far too often for my liking. Can start a game well but can drift out of it really quickly.
If we were up against it/big match I would far rather have Wagstaff on the pitch. Also eldavide's point is a very good one. Green's delivery might be superior, but does catering to set pieces/crosses actually suit our strengths as a team? I'm not so sure of that.
Waggy will always get a bonus point from me because he's one of us (sorry if that annoys a few people). He turned down Smegson to stay at The Valley - which in my eyes shows commitment from a young player, who is only going to develop.
He has an excellent understanding with Solly, which only comes from years of playing in the same side - and I like that.
Probably fair to say that Green is a better 'footballer' at this stage, but his recent poor performances means that Waggy gets his chance - and rightly so.
Waggy on the right wing on Saturday please and if he fails to deliver then we have Green to come on for the last 15.
How good is it that even at this level we have options that other teams would die for?
I would play Green ahead of Waggy for the the simple reason that I think he's got a better delivery. Waggy is very frustrating as I has high hopes for him when he was coming through that's he's never consistantly lived up too. Some will rate Waggy some will rate Green. Not much in it.
Green's delivery is better generally but it has been poor for a few weeks now. Woeful v Rochdale and MK Dons in fact.
Wagstaff is faster, tracks back better and works an overlap better with the FB (solly and Morrison on Tueday). Green has a trick or two more that Waggy and has better delivery. Both have an eye for goal although Waggy outscored green last season if you discount pens.
Both give something to the side and both have limitations.
The bad attitude and "he moans a lot" is a red herring. He is targeted and gets kicked all over the place as teams fear his pace and I seem to remember Johnny Robinson moaned non-stop. He was a better player than Waggy but then again he was a better player than Green too.
How can you say green was woeful against rochdale he was played out of position?.......waggy is average but is still young keep him and see how he devolps over the next year or two....be patient he is only 21 and has shown at times he has quality.
I didn't say Green was woeful v Rochdale. I said his delivery was woeful but yes one reason for that was that he was on the wrong side. He looked better on the right when he switched.
I would say he is more "frustrating" as a player. Can't cross consistetly but can finish a chance. Best thing about him is his John Robinson impression when he is injured and the play doesn't stop, lol! But i see him more as a forward just behind a lone striker.
Waggy will always get a bonus point from me because he's one of us (sorry if that annoys a few people). He turned down Smegson to stay at The Valley - which in my eyes shows commitment from a young player, who is only going to develop.
He has an excellent understanding with Solly, which only comes from years of playing in the same side - and I like that.
Probably fair to say that Green is a better 'footballer' at this stage, but his recent poor performances means that Waggy gets his chance - and rightly so.
Waggy on the right wing on Saturday please and if he fails to deliver then we have Green to come on for the last 15.
How good is it that even at this level we have options that other teams would die for?
To be honest I think some of our fans are more negative about our own players than imports. He's got the best engine at the club. I realise it's not a marathon, but with a run in the team he could be an asset and for me should be sharing the spot with Green whoes delivery never seems to be quite as good as some reckon.
Waggy certainly did himself no favours last time out, but for someone lauded for their delivery of a ball, Green doesn't seem to have contributed much. Not got a lot of speed, tricks as likely to lose the ball as lose the opposition player, goes missing with alarming regularity for my liking. He can do a good job don't get me wrong but it's not as clear cut as some would have you believe.
Its an area that will need to be looked at if we go up as I dont think either are championship level.
agree. Green is too slow. Waggy has pace but needs to add more to his game.
Agree, though with Green it's his decision making that frustrates me more than his lack of pace.
Still don't see much between them when really looking at what they both offer. The way Green was hyped up on here before he even started a league game you'd expect him to have 15+ assists by now.
I guess with Green it's his confident style that makes him look like the class act he's said to be So far he looks like he'll get a similar number of goals and assists combined that Wagstaff did last season and Sam the year before. Yet he has something about his game that means he's rated much more highly.
Waggy infront of Solly is a far more solid combination than when Green plays. Waggy seems to lack confidence at the moment but he is tenacious, as someone said earlier, and all credit that he is fighting for his place. Green has flashes of inspired play but is not so good tracking back imo. However, they are both great assets to have in the team and on the bench. Didn't Waggy play as a striker for the youth team? (Or am I imagining it?)
Wagstaff is shit dont care what any one says he has been poor whenever I watch him play, just throws his arms up in the air like a little girl everytime he doesnt get the ball
You obviously missed that goal v Bournemouth on opening day then and all of the unbeaten run at the beginning of the season.
Still, a player who scored 10 goals from midfield last season being "shit" is your opinion so you're entitled to it.
He scored one wonder goal on the first game of the season and that makes him good, last season are team was awful compared to this season that is why wagstaff looked good, now we have a better team his real form is starting to show. I just hope he doesnt play him this saturday
Just because he scored 10 last year and a wonder goal six months ago does not mean he should play now. He hasn't developed this year and if anything has gone backwards. Cant cross, cant beat a man but can throw himeslf down and wave his arms in the air very well. I would look to offload in the summer, turning from great potential to a very poor player. Would love him to prove me wrong but I can't see it.
I believe Waggy in front of Solly should be the better combination but currently, from the bench, he isn't showing he can recapture last seasons form. Not sure if it's lack of self-belief on his part or poor coaching but, for the moment, I can see why Green gets the nod.
Waggy needs to drop the whingeing whenever he feels hard done by at refs and linesman as it is doesn't get him anywhere. McOxo used to do this constantly, rolling around feigning injury because he was not good enough to keep the ball. Play to the whistle and get on with it. When he is fit he can be a cracking winger and also weighs in with some superb goals but he needs to be starting more games for that to happen.
I think Wagstaff is limited but more than good enough to be in a top side in this division. I was excited with the signing of Green but, for me, he has failed to live up to the hype that came with his signing.
Green seems, often, to struggle to look up to see what is going on around him, which is why I think he often runs into a position where a long shot is all that is available. His crossing is much, much better that Wagstaff's, but due to his limitations he often fails to get to the byline so his crosses are not as effective. I also think he is poor as positional decisions which is why he often looks like he doesn't get back to defend enough.
Wagstaff is not a great crosser of the ball - which I know is a major part of a winger's job, but I think he brings a lot more to the side.
As I've already hinted at (and mentioned to Henry) I thought Wagstaff would, and should, make way for Green once the latter's suspension was served at the start of the season. However, I'm big enough to admit that I was wrong to consider discarding Wagstaff back in August and I think he should be given a run again. I really have no idea why Pritchard was chosen in front of him on the right wing on Tuesday - I assumed he had a minor injury.
He was a little ineffective on Tuesday, and did call for a few fouls, but I've never noticed that in his play before, so I'm more than willing to give him the benefit of the doubt and give him a start on Saturday.
to save time should we have a vote today on who we should blame if we don't win on saturday
I wouldnt say Waggy is the scapegoat this week, Some people thing he is good some think he is awful, I know which one I think and will leave it at that
My dad and I have a Waggy moan counter. It's simple, you just count how many times Waggy has a moan to the ref or the linesman. It was a meagre 3 on Tuesday if anyone's interested. It's done with love, and the difference as has been mentioned already, in people's interpretation of players moaning is their performance. We were pretty pap on Tuesday, Waggy came on when we needed dynamism and he seemed like he was in a bad mood from the start. It wasn't what we wanted to see and he's been buried for it. Away at Orient last year I seem to remember his constant complaining to the ref being part of his incredible all-action display. But hey-ho, that's football.
I think Waggy gets a bad press mostly because he doesn't fit the usual mold of a winger at this level. He's got no tricks, his crossing is erratic at best and his game owes more to persistence and fitness than it does out-and-out skill. When it doesn't work for him he's easier to pick on because he's never supplying what people expect him to. When he does have a good game though, he's a brilliant, composed finisher, he's extremely fast, he goes in for more challenges and takes more lumps than most other wingers at any level and he tries his heart out. No winger is consistently excellent, it comes with the territory, but as long as Green is hitting crosses, wayward or otherwise he'll look better having a bad game to the average onlooker than Waggy ever will while having a shocker.
Personally I think Green is a better option. He's capable of some pinpoint crosses, has occasional moments of brilliance and he can have a bad game for 85 minutes but provide one moment that wins you a game. His main contributions this season have been the 90th minute winner at Yeovil, the clincher against Brentford, the only goal against a strong Exeter defence, and that 40 yard belter that led to our second pen against MK. At this level a single moment of inspiration can kill teams and it's worth having him on so that opportunity is there. Waggy's a team player but he doesn't win you games like Green can. Neither of them are pulling up trees to be honest and I think there's more to come from both. I think we should just be happy we have the options
Wagstaff is shit dont care what any one says he has been poor whenever I watch him play, just throws his arms up in the air like a little girl everytime he doesnt get the ball
A post like that just shows where it comes from.
Thanks for taking the time to add such a valuable contribution to the board. I liked hearing about the exact reasons why you think his play is poor "Wagstaff is shit dont care" and how you balanced it up with some of his strengths as well as weaknesses "poor whenever I watch him play".
It definitely makes me start to think your side of the argument may have a point, and is not baced on some kind of toddler lunacy.
Edit - Also liked the other post where you said his 10 goals from midfield last season was due to the rest of the side being poor. That was a classic bruv.
Wagstaff is shit dont care what any one says he has been poor whenever I watch him play, just throws his arms up in the air like a little girl everytime he doesnt get the ball
A post like that just shows where it comes from.
Thanks for taking the time to add such a valuable contribution to the board. I liked hearing about the exact reasons why you think his play is poor "Wagstaff is shit dont care" and how you balanced it up with some of his strengths as well as weaknesses "poor whenever I watch him play".
It definitely makes me start to think your side of the argument may have a point, and is not baced on some kind of toddler lunacy.
Edit - Also liked the other post where you said his 10 goals from midfield last season was due to the rest of the side being poor. That was a classic bruv.
Dont know bruv but it doesnt seem like I am the only one who thinks he is poor player by the look on this thread, Like the way everyone slags you off for having some sort of opnion they dont like.
He cant cross Cant create any chances when he plays Goes down like Ronaldo use to Moans at everything (reminds me of my ex missus)
At least Waggy has a go but like a lot of wingers he is fickle and unpredictable. I don't think he'll make it as a Championship player which is a pity as he is like a stick of rock .. CHARLTON right the way through. I'm intrigued that a player who can score great goals one day, looks so useless and inept the next.
Comments
I dont see Green make those gestures, which doesn't mean that he doesn't care, i just don't feel like he does as much.
ultimately, we have no idea what the're thinking or how much they care it is down to how we interpret how they behave and which is why we can all disagree about our conclusions.
Him and Solly are a better partnership than Green and Solly.
Its an area that will need to be looked at if we go up as I dont think either are championship level.
Player you like complains to officials = passion
Player you think is "shit" complains to officials = acting like a little girl/bad attitude.
If we were up against it/big match I would far rather have Wagstaff on the pitch. Also eldavide's point is a very good one. Green's delivery might be superior, but does catering to set pieces/crosses actually suit our strengths as a team? I'm not so sure of that.
He has an excellent understanding with Solly, which only comes from years of playing in the same side - and I like that.
Probably fair to say that Green is a better 'footballer' at this stage, but his recent poor performances means that Waggy gets his chance - and rightly so.
Waggy on the right wing on Saturday please and if he fails to deliver then we have Green to come on for the last 15.
How good is it that even at this level we have options that other teams would die for?
Didn't see anyone complain at Palace when they put their RB up top and he got a hat trick aged 32 I believe at the time.
Still don't see much between them when really looking at what they both offer. The way Green was hyped up on here before he even started a league game you'd expect him to have 15+ assists by now.
I guess with Green it's his confident style that makes him look like the class act he's said to be So far he looks like he'll get a similar number of goals and assists combined that Wagstaff did last season and Sam the year before. Yet he has something about his game that means he's rated much more highly.
Green has flashes of inspired play but is not so good tracking back imo.
However, they are both great assets to have in the team and on the bench.
Didn't Waggy play as a striker for the youth team? (Or am I imagining it?)
And he scored more than just the wonder goal. Winners at Bury and Notts Co IIRC.
Lets wait and see if he plays on Saturday and how he does in that and a few other games before we write him off.
Green seems, often, to struggle to look up to see what is going on around him, which is why I think he often runs into a position where a long shot is all that is available. His crossing is much, much better that Wagstaff's, but due to his limitations he often fails to get to the byline so his crosses are not as effective. I also think he is poor as positional decisions which is why he often looks like he doesn't get back to defend enough.
Wagstaff is not a great crosser of the ball - which I know is a major part of a winger's job, but I think he brings a lot more to the side.
As I've already hinted at (and mentioned to Henry) I thought Wagstaff would, and should, make way for Green once the latter's suspension was served at the start of the season. However, I'm big enough to admit that I was wrong to consider discarding Wagstaff back in August and I think he should be given a run again. I really have no idea why Pritchard was chosen in front of him on the right wing on Tuesday - I assumed he had a minor injury.
He was a little ineffective on Tuesday, and did call for a few fouls, but I've never noticed that in his play before, so I'm more than willing to give him the benefit of the doubt and give him a start on Saturday.
to save time should we have a vote today on who we should blame if we don't win on saturday
I wouldnt say Waggy is the scapegoat this week, Some people thing he is good some think he is awful, I know which one I think and will leave it at that
I think Waggy gets a bad press mostly because he doesn't fit the usual mold of a winger at this level. He's got no tricks, his crossing is erratic at best and his game owes more to persistence and fitness than it does out-and-out skill. When it doesn't work for him he's easier to pick on because he's never supplying what people expect him to. When he does have a good game though, he's a brilliant, composed finisher, he's extremely fast, he goes in for more challenges and takes more lumps than most other wingers at any level and he tries his heart out. No winger is consistently excellent, it comes with the territory, but as long as Green is hitting crosses, wayward or otherwise he'll look better having a bad game to the average onlooker than Waggy ever will while having a shocker.
Personally I think Green is a better option. He's capable of some pinpoint crosses, has occasional moments of brilliance and he can have a bad game for 85 minutes but provide one moment that wins you a game. His main contributions this season have been the 90th minute winner at Yeovil, the clincher against Brentford, the only goal against a strong Exeter defence, and that 40 yard belter that led to our second pen against MK. At this level a single moment of inspiration can kill teams and it's worth having him on so that opportunity is there. Waggy's a team player but he doesn't win you games like Green can. Neither of them are pulling up trees to be honest and I think there's more to come from both. I think we should just be happy we have the options
Thanks for taking the time to add such a valuable contribution to the board. I liked hearing about the exact reasons why you think his play is poor "Wagstaff is shit dont care" and how you balanced it up with some of his strengths as well as weaknesses "poor whenever I watch him play".
It definitely makes me start to think your side of the argument may have a point, and is not baced on some kind of toddler lunacy.
Edit - Also liked the other post where you said his 10 goals from midfield last season was due to the rest of the side being poor. That was a classic bruv.
He cant cross
Cant create any chances when he plays
Goes down like Ronaldo use to
Moans at everything (reminds me of my ex missus)
Just few reasons bruv