There is a differnce between vetoing action and perpetrating atrocities - of course they shouldn't be banned. But the IOC should ban Syria.
I agree regarding there being a difference. However, I am surprised that anyone who believes that Syria should be banned, can confidently assert that those vetoing action against Syria should not be banned. Surely those applying the veto potentially could be considered to be effectively allowing the perpetration of atrocities.
A factor that I don't think has been mentioned is the potential for a Syrian athlete to make a statement (like Tommy Smith's clenched fist) against the Syrian government.
Create some kind of Peace and Freedom banner and allow any Syrian athletes who have qualified (or any other qualifying athletes for that matter) the option to comptete under that banner instead of their national banner. Gives them an opportunity to use their appearance at the olympics to send amesage and also gives the opportuinity to ban the Syrian team without necessarily blocking the innocent atheltes careers. Amy athletes that still want to run uinder the Syrian flag can be assumed in favour of Assad's regime and therefore have it coming to them if they get banned.
So Ormiston, Syria yes, China no. If it had been up to you, South Africa yes or no?
There is a lot going on in China and Tibet NOW which we in the west are unaware of.
I am with Bournemouth here - glad I don't have to make the decision.
I don't really see how China gets dragged into this and equated with Syria, or South Africa for that matter.
South Africa obviously could not be invited into the OG's whilst Apartheid was in place.
I have spent a lot of time in China (Beijing, Shanghai, Shenzen, Guanzhou) and whilst I wish there were more democracy in place, there are certainly a lot worse places in the world in terms of human rights.
The Tibet issue is a very sensitive one in China but not one which you could seriously claim they should be excluded from the OG's over, if every country involved in a territorial dispute (think the Turks and Kurdistan) were banned from the OG's then there would be a lot of countries banned.
China should have been dealt with at the time of the Tibetan invasion. What they did to those poor people is beyond belief in fact still doing. They are now a 'super power' and too valuable to the west to upset.
So Ormiston, Syria yes, China no. If it had been up to you, South Africa yes or no?
There is a lot going on in China and Tibet NOW which we in the west are unaware of.
I am with Bournemouth here - glad I don't have to make the decision.
I don't really see how China gets dragged into this and equated with Syria, or South Africa for that matter.
South Africa obviously could not be invited into the OG's whilst Apartheid was in place.
I have spent a lot of time in China (Beijing, Shanghai, Shenzen, Guanzhou) and whilst I wish there were more democracy in place, there are certainly a lot worse places in the world in terms of human rights.
The Tibet issue is a very sensitive one in China but not one which you could seriously claim they should be excluded from the OG's over, if every country involved in a territorial dispute (think the Turks and Kurdistan) were banned from the OG's then there would be a lot of countries banned.
China has a habbit of shutting it's doors to the west, a lot of things happen in the country which we don't know about, I had a drink with a bloke who lived in Hong Kong he was telling me stories about how people would go into prison and die from some mysterious illness whilst inside prison and the whole Tibet thing was horrendous if it takes a monk to set himself on fire to prove a point something is wrong.
Would those Syrian athletes that choose to run under a freedom banner also have it coming to them when the Olympics are over and they go home ?
Well of courese they won't and that's not what I said at all. My point is if they won't make a stand themselves then they can't complain if they get banned as part of a Syrian team. I realise their position would be very perilous and their lives may be at risk - I know it wouldn't be a simple decision for them and I don't know if I'd have the balls to make a stand in their position but at least my solution gives them the option to and gives the rest of the world a chance to send a message to Assad. I wouldn't have a problem with such athletes getting asylum as part of the deal.
I know my idea is somewhat idealistic and probably would never fly so I'd probably lean towards no ban but it's a very difficult decision and probably somewhat hides how massively inadequate the world's reaction has been to Assads atrocities.
So Ormiston, Syria yes, China no. If it had been up to you, South Africa yes or no?
There is a lot going on in China and Tibet NOW which we in the west are unaware of.
I am with Bournemouth here - glad I don't have to make the decision.
I don't really see how China gets dragged into this and equated with Syria, or South Africa for that matter.
South Africa obviously could not be invited into the OG's whilst Apartheid was in place.
I have spent a lot of time in China (Beijing, Shanghai, Shenzen, Guanzhou) and whilst I wish there were more democracy in place, there are certainly a lot worse places in the world in terms of human rights.
The Tibet issue is a very sensitive one in China but not one which you could seriously claim they should be excluded from the OG's over, if every country involved in a territorial dispute (think the Turks and Kurdistan) were banned from the OG's then there would be a lot of countries banned.
China has a habbit of shutting it's doors to the west, a lot of things happen in the country which we don't know about, I had a drink with a bloke who lived in Hong Kong he was telling me stories about how people would go into prison and die from some mysterious illness whilst inside prison and the whole Tibet thing was horrendous if it takes a monk to set himself on fire to prove a point something is wrong.
I quite agree that there are a number of extremely worrying things about the China/Tibet situation but there is not very much the West can do about it, is there?
Having spent some time talking to some politically connected Chinese in business circles in China they could scarcely believe their luck when Cowboy Bush and Tosspot Tony went in for their Afghan/Iraqi madness - because it gave them perfect cover for Tibet and their own "internal security" issues.
Every time a US diplomat or another westerner tries to preach to China about Tibet or any other human rights issue in China they get told plain and simple; "How dare you preach to us about this? We did not preach to you about Afghanistan/Iraq, you focus on your internal issues and we will focus on ours."
What's more, the Yanks and their allies are hardly in a strong position to preach to the Chinese about "human rights" after what they got up to at Abu Gharib or what they are still doing at Guantanamo Bay or at any of the other "rendition" locations that they have around the world where they have tortured people.
Its not as if the Chinese are on their own either, is it? Look at Turkey/Kurdistan, Russia/Chechyna, India/Kashmir - it's a bloody long list once you get started on these issues.
Syria = no ban . Western countries who use , arm and work alongside known terrorist organisations (using our taxpayers money!!) to attain the regime change they want= Lifetime ban. Mainstream media propagandists who dumbdown the masses are conplicit and should not be allowed to cover the Olympics IMO. Remember your Government loves you.
Interesting points - although I did single out China, part of the point I was trying to get across was that once you start banning nations where do you stop - who is squeaky clean - certainly not the US, as has been pointed out.
On the basis of this discussion I think we should be excluded from the Olympic over the Falklands dispute.
Corrupt countries, lets look at home before we start throwing stones. As for Syria, I will have to sit on the fence on this one. But I thought all Middle Eastern counties were going to boycott the London Olympics due to the design of the official logo which they seem to think spells out "Zion"?
I have read about this myself but, in all seriousness, when you talk about this with the Chinese (on the Eastern seaboard) their response is always, "What about how the Americans treated the Indians or how the Australians treated the Aborigines?"
The big mistake westerners make about China is thinking that they don't see outside their country, many of them do, especially in the big cities.
Regardless of the issues with China that doesn't affect what we do about Syria. The Assad regime is a brutal, murdering bunch of butchers and should not be given any place on the world stage whether that be politically or in a sporting context. We can all discuss China as a seperate point.
Be careful for what you wish for....who/what would replace Assads regime.
What could possibly be worse.
Tell that to the families of the ones being slaughtered -- it is cold blooded murder and God help them when they start fighting back ....
China and Russia need Syria space for thier own protection ....but they both need US and Europe for Business ..once a deal has been struck between US/Europe and China/Russia to compensate what ever they think they may lose through UN intervention the better .................we can not stand by and let Kids get a bullet in the head..........
If Syria were to be banned then (in my opinion) so should Israel. I see little difference between Assad's treatment of armed opposition forces and Israels treatment of armed opposition forces. One set of opposition we call terrorists the other freedom fighters where as both are fighting opressive regimes.
If Syria were to be banned then (in my opinion) so should Israel. I see little difference between Assad's treatment of armed opposition forces and Israels treatment of armed opposition forces. One set of opposition we call terrorists the other freedom fighters where as both are fighting opressive regimes.
Israel is not perfect in many ways but surely even the most vehement, Guardian reading, Ken Livingstone like anti semite can see the distinction between a country protecting itself from invasion and attack from outside forces and a government ruthlessly suppressing its own people!
If Syria were to be banned then (in my opinion) so should Israel. I see little difference between Assad's treatment of armed opposition forces and Israels treatment of armed opposition forces. One set of opposition we call terrorists the other freedom fighters where as both are fighting opressive regimes.
If Syria were to be banned then (in my opinion) so should Israel. I see little difference between Assad's treatment of armed opposition forces and Israels treatment of armed opposition forces. One set of opposition we call terrorists the other freedom fighters where as both are fighting opressive regimes.
Israel is not perfect in many ways but surely even the most vehement, Guardian reading, Ken Livingstone like anti semite can see the distinction between a country protecting itself from invasion and attack from outside forces and a government ruthlessly suppressing its own people!
Having visited Palestine and having seen for myself what is happening, I don't think it can be justifiably be said that Israel is just protecting itself from invasion. But I would still want to see both Palestinian and Israeli athletes at the games, maybe they would even have a stab at talking to each other.
Comments
that choose to run under a freedom banner also have it coming to them when the Olympics are over and they go home ?
South Africa obviously could not be invited into the OG's whilst Apartheid was in place.
I have spent a lot of time in China (Beijing, Shanghai, Shenzen, Guanzhou) and whilst I wish there were more democracy in place, there are certainly a lot worse places in the world in terms of human rights.
The Tibet issue is a very sensitive one in China but not one which you could seriously claim they should be excluded from the OG's over, if every country involved in a territorial dispute (think the Turks and Kurdistan) were banned from the OG's then there would be a lot of countries banned.
I know my idea is somewhat idealistic and probably would never fly so I'd probably lean towards no ban but it's a very difficult decision and probably somewhat hides how massively inadequate the world's reaction has been to Assads atrocities.
Having spent some time talking to some politically connected Chinese in business circles in China they could scarcely believe their luck when Cowboy Bush and Tosspot Tony went in for their Afghan/Iraqi madness - because it gave them perfect cover for Tibet and their own "internal security" issues.
Every time a US diplomat or another westerner tries to preach to China about Tibet or any other human rights issue in China they get told plain and simple; "How dare you preach to us about this? We did not preach to you about Afghanistan/Iraq, you focus on your internal issues and we will focus on ours."
What's more, the Yanks and their allies are hardly in a strong position to preach to the Chinese about "human rights" after what they got up to at Abu Gharib or what they are still doing at Guantanamo Bay or at any of the other "rendition" locations that they have around the world where they have tortured people.
Its not as if the Chinese are on their own either, is it? Look at Turkey/Kurdistan, Russia/Chechyna, India/Kashmir - it's a bloody long list once you get started on these issues.
On the basis of this discussion I think we should be excluded from the Olympic over the Falklands dispute.
(joke).
But there should be more public concern around the fate of ethnic Uighurs in China. Thousands have reportedly "disappeared" in recent times..
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/8487724.stm
The big mistake westerners make about China is thinking that they don't see outside their country, many of them do, especially in the big cities.
China and Russia need Syria space for thier own protection ....but they both need US and Europe for Business ..once a deal has been struck between US/Europe and China/Russia to compensate what ever they think they may lose through UN intervention the better .................we can not stand by and let Kids get a bullet in the head..........
it can not over lap
The Syrian leaders need to be hung drawn and qtrd but it should not stop an athelete competing
Even those westerners who speak live in China and spend all day everyday with Chinese people?
Imagine the uproar had England ever had some kind of empire.....
; )
I have been to China, in case you're wondering.