Ok Len, Oriental. 1st Len. Anti Semite? You demean the term when you use it against people who criticise Israel. To be an anti Semite is (in my mind) to be a racist so, using your definition all above who criticise Arab regimes are anti Arab, ergo racists? I fully support Israels right to exist within legally defined borders, I would help defend those borders were they defined by the Israeli gov following a fair negotiated settlement with the people who are currently living under military control. That said here is my justification for my above post. Palestinians have lived under military occupation for 45 years. That means that they are not an "outside force" attacking Israel. If you consider the restriction of movement, Planning permits,right to residency following periods abroad (44,000 who have studied abroad have been refused re-entry in my lifetime) forced relocation, indefinite detention without charge or evidence presented (308 at present) etc etc (it's a long list compiled by people a lot more knowledgeable than me) you could consider these people as opressed. Then consider that the international community (inc USA) consider the occupation illegal. Therefore they fight for their rights as the Syrian people do (and rightly so) and should be supported as the Syrians should be. Sometimes i do read the Guardian, but also Haaretz, JPost and many others so that i can get a balanced opinion of a situation (try reading Haaretz sometime, you will find that some in the Israeli press are more critical of Israel than I) Ken Livingstone is a prize twat in my opinion but i have to accept that people who disagree with your opinions put you in a box with twats now and then. Anti semite? Bring a rational argument my friend instaed of just generalising and throwing insults. I can give you a thousand links to back my opinion (and it is only an opinion) how many can you provide to back your claim i'm a "Guardian reading, Ken Livingstone like anti semite" Shalom. Oriental - I just can't compete with such an eloquent argument. Peas.
Ok Len, Oriental. 1st Len. Anti Semite? You demean the term when you use it against people who criticise Israel. To be an anti Semite is (in my mind) to be a racist so, using your definition all above who criticise Arab regimes are anti Arab, ergo racists? I fully support Israels right to exist within legally defined borders, I would help defend those borders were they defined by the Israeli gov following a fair negotiated settlement with the people who are currently living under military control. That said here is my justification for my above post. Palestinians have lived under military occupation for 45 years. That means that they are not an "outside force" attacking Israel. If you consider the restriction of movement, Planning permits,right to residency following periods abroad (44,000 who have studied abroad have been refused re-entry in my lifetime) forced relocation, indefinite detention without charge or evidence presented (308 at present) etc etc (it's a long list compiled by people a lot more knowledgeable than me) you could consider these people as opressed. Then consider that the international community (inc USA) consider the occupation illegal. Therefore they fight for their rights as the Syrian people do (and rightly so) and should be supported as the Syrians should be. Sometimes i do read the Guardian, but also Haaretz, JPost and many others so that i can get a balanced opinion of a situation (try reading Haaretz sometime, you will find that some in the Israeli press are more critical of Israel than I) Ken Livingstone is a prize twat in my opinion but i have to accept that people who disagree with your opinions put you in a box with twats now and then. Anti semite? Bring a rational argument my friend instaed of just generalising and throwing insults. I can give you a thousand links to back my opinion (and it is only an opinion) how many can you provide to back your claim i'm a "Guardian reading, Ken Livingstone like anti semite" Shalom. Oriental - I just can't compete with such an eloquent argument. Peas.
If the treatment of opposition forces by both governments are so similar, please enlighten me on instances where women and children have had their throats slit, been burned by heating oil or been shot at point black range by Israeli Armed Forces.
You are not worth having my eloquence bestowed upon you.
Ok Len, Oriental. 1st Len. Anti Semite? You demean the term when you use it against people who criticise Israel. To be an anti Semite is (in my mind) to be a racist so, using your definition all above who criticise Arab regimes are anti Arab, ergo racists? I fully support Israels right to exist within legally defined borders, I would help defend those borders were they defined by the Israeli gov following a fair negotiated settlement with the people who are currently living under military control. That said here is my justification for my above post. Palestinians have lived under military occupation for 45 years. That means that they are not an "outside force" attacking Israel. If you consider the restriction of movement, Planning permits,right to residency following periods abroad (44,000 who have studied abroad have been refused re-entry in my lifetime) forced relocation, indefinite detention without charge or evidence presented (308 at present) etc etc (it's a long list compiled by people a lot more knowledgeable than me) you could consider these people as opressed. Then consider that the international community (inc USA) consider the occupation illegal. Therefore they fight for their rights as the Syrian people do (and rightly so) and should be supported as the Syrians should be. Sometimes i do read the Guardian, but also Haaretz, JPost and many others so that i can get a balanced opinion of a situation (try reading Haaretz sometime, you will find that some in the Israeli press are more critical of Israel than I) Ken Livingstone is a prize twat in my opinion but i have to accept that people who disagree with your opinions put you in a box with twats now and then. Anti semite? Bring a rational argument my friend instaed of just generalising and throwing insults. I can give you a thousand links to back my opinion (and it is only an opinion) how many can you provide to back your claim i'm a "Guardian reading, Ken Livingstone like anti semite" Shalom. Oriental - I just can't compete with such an eloquent argument. Peas.
I stated at the outset that Israel is not perfect and would not seek to deny that the Israeli government has committed atrocities of its own.
However, whilst I stress it does not justify those atrocities, in simple terms, within the context of a discussion on a football message board, they have been committed against FOREIGN threats, perceived or actual, to the Jewish way of life.
Very different to a military government slaughtering the women and children of its OWN people for daring to express dissent in my opinion.
Hence why I commented on your post. In hindsight the Guardian, Livingstone remarks were probably not necessary but hopefully you now understand where I'm coming from a bit better.
Whilst we are talking about both the Olympics and Israel let us remember the 11 innocent Israeli athletes ruthlessly slaughtered at Munich in 1972.
If the treatment of opposition forces by both governments are so similar, please enlighten me on instances where women and children have had their throats slit, been burned by heating oil or been shot at point black range by Israeli Armed Forces.
You are not worth having my eloquence bestowed upon you.
Want more? There are thousands of similar instances out there on the internet if you choose to look. Please don't make it personal Oriental. We all have an opinion (mainly born from experience) and we will never all agree but we are all people.
I stated at the outset that Israel is not perfect and would not seek to deny that the Israeli government has committed atrocities of its own.
However, whilst I stress it does not justify those atrocities, in simple terms, within the context of a discussion on a football message board, they have been committed against FOREIGN threats ( This is the crux of my argument Len. As they don't have self determination the FOREIGN part is a very grey area. As per your paragraph below, Palestinians DO live under a military gov and are subjected to military law. And OWN people shouldn't matter. They are people), perceived or actual, to the Jewish way of life.
Very different to a military government slaughtering the women and children of its OWN people for daring to express dissent in my opinion.
Hence why I commented on your post. In hindsight the Guardian, Livingstone remarks were probably not necessary but hopefully you now understand where I'm coming from a bit better. - No problem. I will take that on the chin with a smile.
Whilst we are talking about both the Olympics and Israel let us remember the 11 innocent Israeli athletes ruthlessly slaughtered at Munich in 1972. - An appalling atrocity that can never be justified. RIP.
I asked for comparable examples and nothing that you posted above comes close.
The reason it is becoming personal is because your personal bias is overwhelming. Come on, admit it, you hate Israel, don't be shy.
Going back to the topic of the thread, I see no point in banning the Syrian athletes from participating in the games.
Sabra and Shatila. I am sorry as this may be off topic but I cannot let these comments go unchallenged in homage to my dearest friend Romi who was in Shatila camp at the time of the massacre.
'Many of the bodies found had been severely mutilated. Many boys had been castrated, some were scalped, and some had the Christian cross carved into their bodies' Independent Norwegian observer.
'I saw dead women in their houses with their skirts up to their waists and their legs spread apart; dozens of young men shot after being lined up against an alley wall; children with their throats slit, a pregnant woman with her stomach chopped open, her eyes still wide open, her blackened face silently screaming in horror; countless babies and toddlers who had been stabbed or ripped apart and who had been thrown into garbage piles.' A female journalist from the US writing to her husband.
I asked for comparable examples and nothing that you posted above comes close.
The reason it is becoming personal is because your personal bias is overwhelming. Come on, admit it, you hate Israel, don't be shy.
Going back to the topic of the thread, I see no point in banning the Syrian athletes from participating in the games.
Sabra and Shatila. I am sorry as this may be off topic but I cannot let these comments go unchallenged in homage to my dearest friend Romi who was in Shatila camp at the time of the massacre.
'Many of the bodies found had been severely mutilated. Many boys had been castrated, some were scalped, and some had the Christian cross carved into their bodies' Independent Norwegian observer.
'I saw dead women in their houses with their skirts up to their waists and their legs spread apart; dozens of young men shot after being lined up against an alley wall; children with their throats slit, a pregnant woman with her stomach chopped open, her eyes still wide open, her blackened face silently screaming in horror; countless babies and toddlers who had been stabbed or ripped apart and who had been thrown into garbage piles.' A female journalist from the US writing to her husband.
May the athletes speak peace unto each other.
Tragic indeed but these atrocities were committed by Lebanese militia.
It's a bit of a long bow to compare the behaviour of the Israeli and Syrian governments, the Israelis have acted disgracefully at times but you would be hard pressed to find examples where they have butchered their own people - including hundreds of women and children - in the way Assad has.
At the same time, it is well out of line to call someone a "self-hating Jew" because they express concern for the Palestinians or have issues with the way the Israeli government behaves on occasion.
For those not familiar with Israeli-Palestinian politics, being called a "self-hating Jew" by a someone as OA has just done is broadly similar to an African-American calling another black American an "Uncle Tom" or "Handkerchief Head" because they are supposedly too willing to bow to the white man at the expense of their own kind.
I don't think that sort of comment really has any place on CL.
There is a lot going on in China and Tibet NOW which we in the west are unaware of.
Even those westerners who speak live in China and spend all day everyday with Chinese people?
Imagine the uproar had England ever had some kind of empire.....
If it's so open, how come the Chinese government control access to internet content? And, is there a free press?
I have been to China, in case you're wondering.
I have a friend out here from the US who tells me the exact same thing takes place in the US, he can access certain stuff on the web that he cannot from back home. Also not so access to news is as restricted as it was, a quick look at http://www.chinasmack.com/ (which is a site that translates hot news topics from china's micro blogs) will show how much 'negative' news is available to the public.
I'm not saying things have always been great here, nor do I claim it to be perfect but China IS changing, for the better. The youth here are changing things and the government accept that things must change in order to keep its people happy.
Have a read about what happened it Wukan, there is no way that situation would have been dealt with in the same way 10 years ago.
Where I live has a vibrant muslim community, these people meet to pray in a fairly open way.
It's far from perfect here but to compare it to whats going on to Syria seems a little crazy to me.
Comments
1st Len. Anti Semite? You demean the term when you use it against people who criticise Israel. To be an anti Semite is (in my mind) to be a racist so, using your definition all above who criticise Arab regimes are anti Arab, ergo racists? I fully support Israels right to exist within legally defined borders, I would help defend those borders were they defined by the Israeli gov following a fair negotiated settlement with the people who are currently living under military control. That said here is my justification for my above post.
Palestinians have lived under military occupation for 45 years. That means that they are not an "outside force" attacking Israel. If you consider the restriction of movement, Planning permits,right to residency following periods abroad (44,000 who have studied abroad have been refused re-entry in my lifetime) forced relocation, indefinite detention without charge or evidence presented (308 at present) etc etc (it's a long list compiled by people a lot more knowledgeable than me) you could consider these people as opressed. Then consider that the international community (inc USA) consider the occupation illegal. Therefore they fight for their rights as the Syrian people do (and rightly so) and should be supported as the Syrians should be.
Sometimes i do read the Guardian, but also Haaretz, JPost and many others so that i can get a balanced opinion of a situation (try reading Haaretz sometime, you will find that some in the Israeli press are more critical of Israel than I)
Ken Livingstone is a prize twat in my opinion but i have to accept that people who disagree with your opinions put you in a box with twats now and then.
Anti semite? Bring a rational argument my friend instaed of just generalising and throwing insults. I can give you a thousand links to back my opinion (and it is only an opinion) how many can you provide to back your claim i'm a "Guardian reading, Ken Livingstone like anti semite"
Shalom.
Oriental - I just can't compete with such an eloquent argument.
Peas.
If the treatment of opposition forces by both governments are so similar, please enlighten me on instances where women and children have had their throats slit, been burned by heating oil or been shot at point black range by Israeli Armed Forces.
You are not worth having my eloquence bestowed upon you.
However, whilst I stress it does not justify those atrocities, in simple terms, within the context of a discussion on a football message board, they have been committed against FOREIGN threats, perceived or actual, to the Jewish way of life.
Very different to a military government slaughtering the women and children of its OWN people for daring to express dissent in my opinion.
Hence why I commented on your post. In hindsight the Guardian, Livingstone remarks were probably not necessary but hopefully you now understand where I'm coming from a bit better.
Whilst we are talking about both the Olympics and Israel let us remember the 11 innocent Israeli athletes ruthlessly slaughtered at Munich in 1972.
You are not worth having my eloquence bestowed upon you.
Women and children having their throats slit -
And again - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deir_Yassin_massacre
Point blank -
http://www.criticalconcern.com/rachelcorrie.html
Last weekend - http://www.btselem.org/video/20120520_asira_al_qibilia_settlers
Want more? There are thousands of similar instances out there on the internet if you choose to look. Please don't make it personal Oriental. We all have an opinion (mainly born from experience) and we will never all agree but we are all people.
However, whilst I stress it does not justify those atrocities, in simple terms, within the context of a discussion on a football message board, they have been committed against FOREIGN threats ( This is the crux of my argument Len. As they don't have self determination the FOREIGN part is a very grey area. As per your paragraph below, Palestinians DO live under a military gov and are subjected to military law. And OWN people shouldn't matter. They are people), perceived or actual, to the Jewish way of life.
Very different to a military government slaughtering the women and children of its OWN people for daring to express dissent in my opinion.
Hence why I commented on your post. In hindsight the Guardian, Livingstone remarks were probably not necessary but hopefully you now understand where I'm coming from a bit better. - No problem. I will take that on the chin with a smile.
Whilst we are talking about both the Olympics and Israel let us remember the 11 innocent Israeli athletes ruthlessly slaughtered at Munich in 1972. - An appalling atrocity that can never be justified. RIP.
יאללה לך אדומים
The reason it is becoming personal is because your personal bias is overwhelming. Come on, admit it, you hate Israel, don't be shy.
Going back to the topic of the thread, I see no point in banning the Syrian athletes from participating in the games.
'Many of the bodies found had been severely mutilated. Many boys had been castrated, some were scalped, and some had the Christian cross carved into their bodies'
Independent Norwegian observer.
'I saw dead women in their houses with their skirts up to their waists and their legs spread apart; dozens of young men shot after being lined up against an alley wall; children with their throats slit, a pregnant woman with her stomach chopped open, her eyes still wide open, her blackened face silently screaming in horror; countless babies and toddlers who had been stabbed or ripped apart and who had been thrown into garbage piles.'
A female journalist from the US writing to her husband.
May the athletes speak peace unto each other.
Shalom
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-hating_Jew
At the same time, it is well out of line to call someone a "self-hating Jew" because they express concern for the Palestinians or have issues with the way the Israeli government behaves on occasion.
For those not familiar with Israeli-Palestinian politics, being called a "self-hating Jew" by a someone as OA has just done is broadly similar to an African-American calling another black American an "Uncle Tom" or "Handkerchief Head" because they are supposedly too willing to bow to the white man at the expense of their own kind.
I don't think that sort of comment really has any place on CL.
I have a friend out here from the US who tells me the exact same thing takes place in the US, he can access certain stuff on the web that he cannot from back home. Also not so access to news is as restricted as it was, a quick look at http://www.chinasmack.com/ (which is a site that translates hot news topics from china's micro blogs) will show how much 'negative' news is available to the public.
I'm not saying things have always been great here, nor do I claim it to be perfect but China IS changing, for the better. The youth here are changing things and the government accept that things must change in order to keep its people happy.
Have a read about what happened it Wukan, there is no way that situation would have been dealt with in the same way 10 years ago.
Where I live has a vibrant muslim community, these people meet to pray in a fairly open way.
It's far from perfect here but to compare it to whats going on to Syria seems a little crazy to me.