Lifer in Daily Mail Article

Henry Irving

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2156699/Turning-backs-Britains-fallen.html

Nuff Respect to SE7toSG3, or Clive Harris as he is sometimes known, who gets a great write up in the Daily Mail

PS Don't agree with "no one remembers" tone of the piece but an interesting article all the same. Just as the French and Americans focus on their parts in WWII we British often ignore what the French did in the first and the Russians did in the second war.

smudge7946

Is that true that no french president had been to the British war cemetery in Normandy until this week?

BIG-ROB

Good read that, nice work @SE7toSG3!

Mametz

+It is unfortunately true that films and television series such Band of Brothers and Private Ryan have convinced even many British people that D-Day and the Normandy campaign was an almost exclusively American affair. Recently some friends of mine that they had visited "all" the D-Day must sees citing Omaha Beach and St Mere Eglise. It never occurred to them to see Ranville, Arromanches, Hillman, Mont Pincon etc. The American cemetery above Omaha is splendid and huge whereas the British are buried in a number of smaller more intimate cemeteries. Although the longer the campaign in North West Europe went the bigger the American contribution became I believe I am right in saying that on D-day more British and Commonwealth troops landed than Americans.
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Henry Irving

I don't blame American film and TV companies for focusing on US soldiers. Band of Brothers does mention and feature some British troops (not always very complimentary) but they are US productions for a US audience.

As it was half the key actors in band of brothers were English but that is a side point.

It was always the same. Errol Flynn won the war in Burma on his own and John Wayne took out most of the Germans on D-Day.

British films and TV shows feature our service men as I'd expect. We don't have UK drama shows about the French army at Verdun or the Red Army at Stalingrad.

But when Remembrance Day comes around we primarily remember the British and commonwealth fighters and rightly so. I can believe that there are some, but not all, tourists who come to Normandy to see the Band of Brothers/Private Ryan sites but with time they will learn more.

HugoZHackenbush

There is the rather obvious point to be made that Band of Brothers was a basically true story about real-life Americans and it would have been incorrect to re-state history just to placate us by introding British troops who weren't actually there. Saving Private Ryan is fictional.

That said a lot of the support for those US forces was British. After the invasion they relied on supplies from largely British ships via British Mulberry harbours and I know for a fact that my own uncle spent 6th June 1944 (and some time afterwards) on a British cruiser pointing a large British gun at some Germans behind Omaha beach, not Gold, Sword or Juno.

SilentAddick

What about the total fabrication those Yanks meted out to the Enigma story! Unbelievable indeed but in a way we should show some understanding and pity on them as they're desperate for some credibility and/or history...

ShootersHillGuru

You have to remember that the average American probably couldn't tell you where Europe was on a map let alone the reasons for and the outcome of WW II apart from that America won it.

ThreadKiller

great and deserved recognition to SE7toSG3, reading the article led me ordering a book from ww1.

the mémorial de caen, museum side i felt when i visited was slanted more to the american perspective but not sure if that was just my chip on shoulder kicking in. very interesting place though and all very humbling

Addickted

Nice to see Clive get some recognition. A couple of points though,

1) The French Government cherish their history? I don't think anyone could agree with that if they visited Forts Douaumont and Vaux at Verdun. They are a national disgrace, considering the brave Frenchmen who gave their lives in their hundreds of thousands to protect that Town whilst the Germans tried to 'bleed France white'. They are in an appalling condition with no attempt to preserve them.

2) Henry reads the Daily Mail!!!!

Curb_It

Lol Addickted. I thought the same.

Exiled_Addick

You have to remember that the average American probably couldn't tell you where Europe was on a map let alone the reasons for and the outcome of WW II apart from that America won it.

More to the point we should not be so snotty nosed and ungrateful towards a whole nation when, like it not, the intervention and sacrifces of thousands of it's people played a major major role in saving Britain purely because 70 years later a monority of it's population have become ignorant of the true story of that era. Even before they sent troops we'd have been screwed without the supply lines across the Atlantic.

The same lack of respect and understanding exists in a minority of our population, but that would not justify such a condascending attituide being pointed towards the rest of us.

Apologies for the rant, but it always irks me when I hear/read people looking down on 1940s America. I'm no fan of their current grip on world culture and economics and I wouldn't want to live there but we have no reason to be anything but grateful for their part in the history of WWII Britain.

Addickted

"Even before they sent troops we'd have been screwed without the supply lines across the Atlantic".

Mostly transported by the unsung heroes of the British Merchant Navy, bringing goods and supplies to the UK which we paid for - including Lend Lease.

We only cleared our WWII debt to the US in the 1980's.

ShootersHillGuru

You have to remember that the average American probably couldn't tell you where Europe was on a map let alone the reasons for and the outcome of WW II apart from that America won it.

More to the point we should not be so snotty nosed and ungrateful towards a whole nation when, like it not, the intervention and sacrifces of thousands of it's people played a major major role in saving Britain purely because 70 years later a monority of it's population have become ignorant of the true story of that era. Even before they sent troops we'd have been screwed without the supply lines across the Atlantic.

The same lack of respect and understanding exists in a minority of our population, but that would not justify such a condascending attituide being pointed towards the rest of us.

Apologies for the rant, but it always irks me when I hear/read people looking down on 1940s America. I'm no fan of their current grip on world culture and economics and I wouldn't want to live there but we have no reason to be anything but grateful for their part in the history of WWII Britain.

I would suggest that this view could be turned on its head and that Hollywoods portrayal of all things WW II as being America centric is a huge snub and shows complete lack of respect to those nations that stood up to the might of Nazi Germany long before the Americans came to their rescue.

HugoZHackenbush

"Even before they sent troops we'd have been screwed without the supply lines across the Atlantic".

Mostly transported by the unsung heroes of the British Merchant Navy, bringing goods and supplies to the UK which we paid for - including Lend Lease.

We only cleared our WWII debt to the US in the 1980's.

Strange thing, lend lease.

My father finished the war in Italy. I remember him telling me that after the war ended they were busy re-assembling fighters which they then drove over to the other side of the airfield so that the Americans (not having any use for them)could sing for them and then put a bulldozer through them.

Whether or not the bit about sneaking back over at night and retrieving various "spare parts" is anybody's guess

SE7toSG3

Only just got to read the article on line as I am walking the Somme with a group, just to clarify, I did the history bit for Max and he added the political angle that the paper wanted, there is quite a behind the scenes row about what we are doing to commemorate the centenary and the tone of Max's article may pursuade those in power to look beyond this summers games.

Though we did differ politically on quite a bit he was a charming bloke and we had a few fascinating few days together, what hit home most to him was how much of a junior partner we were on the Western Front until 1916. We often forget that of a roughly 670 mile front, we never held more than 120 miles of it at any stage of the war.

I agree Addicted about Verdun by the way, some of the forts could be a lot better presented and preserved, they have just pumped millions into a new national Great War museum in Meaux on the Marne, havent been yet so cant comment.

Just a foot note but when pressed, the only football team Max had any allegance to was us, his wife Penny and stepson are both keen addicks as she was married to Michael Grade in a past life

Exiled_Addick

You have to remember that the average American probably couldn't tell you where Europe was on a map let alone the reasons for and the outcome of WW II apart from that America won it.

More to the point we should not be so snotty nosed and ungrateful towards a whole nation when, like it not, the intervention and sacrifces of thousands of it's people played a major major role in saving Britain purely because 70 years later a monority of it's population have become ignorant of the true story of that era. Even before they sent troops we'd have been screwed without the supply lines across the Atlantic.

The same lack of respect and understanding exists in a minority of our population, but that would not justify such a condascending attituide being pointed towards the rest of us.

Apologies for the rant, but it always irks me when I hear/read people looking down on 1940s America. I'm no fan of their current grip on world culture and economics and I wouldn't want to live there but we have no reason to be anything but grateful for their part in the history of WWII Britain.

I would suggest that this view could be turned on its head and that Hollywoods portrayal of all things WW II as being America centric is a huge snub and shows complete lack of respect to those nations that stood up to the might of Nazi Germany long before the Americans came to their rescue.

The point is Holywood does not represents all Americans and it certainly doesn't speak for the Veterans and leaders of that era, to whom we owe a great debt. It's a weird world all of it's own and is usually driven by a desire to make nad grab attention, not be historically acurate. Not for a second defending Hollywoods prtrayla of the events, I think it's wrong, but people use it as a stick to beat a whole nation which I think is churlish and disrespectful to the people who fought on our sideand have eff all to do with the way Hollywood conducts itself over half a century later.

"Even before they sent troops we'd have been screwed without the supply lines across the Atlantic".

Mostly transported by the unsung heroes of the British Merchant Navy, bringing goods and supplies to the UK which we paid for - including Lend Lease.

We only cleared our WWII debt to the US in the 1980's.

Doesn't matter, they made it available when others didn't wouldn't and we'd have lost without it. There is of course a strong argument that the USA could or even should have openky taken sides earlier in the conflict, but war and politics are complicated things and would you expect the Bristich governemnt to have immediately sent British soldiers to die half way around the world if the conflict was taking place now in North America? Maybe you would, but many wouldn't and why should the USA have been expected to disrgard all it's own interest for what at the time was effectively someone elses war.

I have never understood why there has to be a 'we did more to win the war than you did' attitude around the different nations involvement. Without the incredible bravery and resilience of the British and Commonwealth people (and the English Channel) Hitler would have conquered us before the Yanks had forces on European soil, but without the Yanks' support and the bravery and resilence of the Russian we'd have seriously struggled to hold him off indefintely and we certainly wouldn't have been able to liberate the rest of Europe.

Everyone who fought on our side in that war deserves nothing but respect and admiration and we all owe a debt to each other in one way or another but it shouldn't be forgotten that the war in Europe was not an immediate threat to the lives and safety of US citizens and as a result they were fighting largely out selflesness whereas Brits and Russians were fighting largely for their own survival.

There are plenty of sticks to beat the Yanks with, WWII isn't one of them imho.

Addickted

Hope you're popping into visit Fred Chick at Caterpillar Valley Clive.

ShootersHillGuru

@Exiled_Addick said

There are plenty of sticks to beat the Yanks with, WWII isn't one of them imho.

Yes I agree in part with that but Hollywood cannot be glibly excused for its portrayals any less than Americas ill educated masses that believe they were the only antagonists and couldn't tell you that Great Britain fought on its own for Two long years. Yes the GI's were brave and tipped the war in the allies favour but I'm afraid I do blame the Americans for their ignorance. Who else should I blame ?

harveys_gardener

No doubt the result of WW2 would have been different without their first? foray onto foreign shores. It's a shame they use it as an excuse to poke their nose in where it is not needed or justified.

Exiled_Addick

@Exiled_Addick said

There are plenty of sticks to beat the Yanks with, WWII isn't one of them imho.

Yes I agree in part with that but Hollywood cannot be glibly excused for its portrayals any less than Americas ill educated masses that believe they were the only antagonists and couldn't tell you that Great Britain fought on its own for Two long years. Yes the GI's were brave and tipped the war in the allies favour but I'm afraid I do blame the Americans for their ignorance. Who else should I blame ?

Well the British don't always paint a true picture of some of our behaviour historically (glorifying the Empire for example without necessarily paying enough attention to some of the extremely unpleasant things that went with it). Like I say, I'm not trying to defend that ignorance and misrepresentation of history but it's a) not an exclusively American problem and b) I don't believe it's true of the majority of people.

I just don't think there's a need for us to have a chip on our shoulder about it.

moutuakilla

"Even before they sent troops we'd have been screwed without the supply lines across the Atlantic".

Mostly transported by the unsung heroes of the British Merchant Navy, bringing goods and supplies to the UK which we paid for - including Lend Lease.

We only cleared our WWII debt to the US in the 1980's.

cleared it only 6 years ago...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4970720.stm

Cardinal Sin

What most Brits fail to understand about American history is just how many Germans settled there and how strong their influence was. The decision to adopt English as the main language was a hard-fought and very closely contested won by a very narrow majority over German. If you add the Italian influence in terms of pro-Germany then you can appreciate how delicate and difficult a decision it was to get consensus to enter into the war on the side of the Allies.

smudge7946

"Even before they sent troops we'd have been screwed without the supply lines across the Atlantic".

Mostly transported by the unsung heroes of the British Merchant Navy, bringing goods and supplies to the UK which we paid for - including Lend Lease.

We only cleared our WWII debt to the US in the 1980's.

cleared it only 6 years ago...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4970720.stm

#

This completly destroys Germanys excuse for the nazis and the second world war.
It was regarded as accepted logic that the massive debt imposed on Germany in 1918 led to the rise of the Nazis. Yet the British bankrupted themselves in WW2 and the massive British war debt was still being paid off by the generations born thirty years after the war and Britian never once turned to extreme politics.

ShootersHillGuru

What most Brits fail to understand about American history is just how many Germans settled there and how strong their influence was. The decision to adopt English as the main language was a hard-fought and very closely contested won by a very narrow majority over German. If you add the Italian influence in terms of pro-Germany then you can appreciate how delicate and difficult a decision it was to get consensus to enter into the war on the side of the Allies.

All very true and significant to the discussion but the conflict between Nazi Germany and Great Britain wasn't some squabble between two nations over a border dispute. By 1941 Germany had already shown its hand in terms of expansionism and intent to dominate the whole of Europe by any means. The Jewish question at this point was I agree less clear but the rhetoric was there to be seen. As for influence of ethnic German and Italian Americans I think you should throw into the mix the influence of Jewish Americans also. Defeating Nazi Germany was a straight choice between right and wrong.

Henry Irving

It was easy for the US to enter the war on the Allies side after Japen attacked Pearl Harbour and Germany then declared war on the US.

Before that the Monroe doctrine (non-intervention in non-American continental wars) still influenced a lot of people.

SheffieldRed

What most Brits fail to understand about American history is just how many Germans settled there and how strong their influence was. The decision to adopt English as the main language was a hard-fought and very closely contested won by a very narrow majority over German. If you add the Italian influence in terms of pro-Germany then you can appreciate how delicate and difficult a decision it was to get consensus to enter into the war on the side of the Allies.

Imagine what would have happened had America had a President Lindenburg.

ShootersHillGuru

What most Brits fail to understand about American history is just how many Germans settled there and how strong their influence was. The decision to adopt English as the main language was a hard-fought and very closely contested won by a very narrow majority over German. If you add the Italian influence in terms of pro-Germany then you can appreciate how delicate and difficult a decision it was to get consensus to enter into the war on the side of the Allies.

Imagine what would have happened had America had a President Lindenburg.

That is a facinating point to ponder.

Oggy Red

This completly destroys Germanys excuse for the nazis and the second world war.

Depends how you view the word "excuse", surely?
But there were underlying causes and reasons.


Germany in the days of the Weimar Republic, was in a totally impoverished state with rampant hyperinflation; huge numbers of people couldn't afford to feed or house their family.

With infrastructure crumbling, and ignored by the victorious Allied countries (who admittedly had economic problems of their own after 1929), it's no wonder a maverick like Hitler could get a political foothold.

He promised to rebuild Germany and get it working again.

In 1933 to their desperate working class, that would have seemed to be something they could only dream about - no ordinary man in the street could have any idea where Hitler would drive Germany in such a few short years.


And remember, the Nazi Party were a political party (like the Conservatives and Labour in this country) and not the nation.

Hitler ruled by fear.....many ordinary German people who dissented, simply disappeared courtesy of the Gestapo.

Gillis

This completly destroys Germanys excuse for the nazis and the second world war.
It was regarded as accepted logic that the massive debt imposed on Germany in 1918 led to the rise of the Nazis. Yet the British bankrupted themselves in WW2 and the massive British war debt was still being paid off by the generations born thirty years after the war and Britian never once turned to extreme politics.

Excuse? It seems odd to describe the propounded historical reasons for an event, but forward by historians of all nationalities, as an excuse on the part of the German people. I believe it's generally accepted that the economic situation in interwar Germany was one of the factors that led to the rise of the Nazi Party. If that reasoning is an 'excuse', what are you suggesting were the 'real' reasons?

Also, I don't think the terms of the debt that Britain owed to her ally, the US, after WWII compared with severity of the reparations imposed on Germany by her former enemies at Versailles. And at no point since 1945 has the economic situation in Britain been anything like that experienced in Germany in the interwar years, with hyperinflation and such. The rise of extremist parties in times of serious economic turmoil is well documented, and can even be seen to a lesser extent today in France and Greece.

Finally, I've personally never encountered any Germans who have tried to excuse the rise of the Nazis. Not that they should have to excuse it or otherwise, as there are few alive today who are old enough to have been involved.

ShootersHillGuru

This completly destroys Germanys excuse for the nazis and the second world war.
It was regarded as accepted logic that the massive debt imposed on Germany in 1918 led to the rise of the Nazis. Yet the British bankrupted themselves in WW2 and the massive British war debt was still being paid off by the generations born thirty years after the war and Britian never once turned to extreme politics.

Excuse? It seems odd to describe the propounded historical reasons for an event, but forward by historians of all nationalities, as an excuse on the part of the German people. I believe it's generally accepted that the economic situation in interwar Germany was one of the factors that led to the rise of the Nazi Party. If that reasoning is an 'excuse', what are you suggesting were the 'real' reasons?

Also, I don't think the terms of the debt that Britain owed to her ally, the US, after WWII compared with severity of the reparations imposed on Germany by her former enemies at Versailles. And at no point since 1945 has the economic situation in Britain been anything like that experienced in Germany in the interwar years, with hyperinflation and such. The rise of extremist parties in times of serious economic turmoil is well documented, and can even be seen to a lesser extent today in France and Greece.

Finally, I've personally never encountered any Germans who have tried to excuse the rise of the Nazis. Not that they should have to excuse it or otherwise, as there are few alive today who are old enough to have been involved.

Great post