Len. once again I am shocked by your experience and perception of what the NHS is. I would not dream of doubting your word but there does seem to me that the scenario you portray smacks of a conspiracy theory. Do you really think that staff are complicit to a policy of allowing or even encouraging sick elderly patients to die ? That is right up there with Elvis and The moon landings. I have a more practical scenario in that there are an awful lot of poor quality staff and or staff so ground down by excessive workload that the care they should be providing is not possible. For those that are uncaring and negligent I have nothing but contempt but I suspect it is a mix of both. I work in cancer care which by definition is predominantly an elderly disease. I can assure you that I have never had even the slightest suspicion of what you say and in fact I would go as far as to say that the care offered is nothing short of excellent.
They played a blinder with my father. When I asked why he had no tubes keeping him hydrated I was told that they were probably going to operate shortly. I was mug enough to believe that little gem for the best part of 3 days by which time kidney failure had set in and they were well on their way to achieving their target of bumping him off. No consent from the family, we were just given the we will operate line.
My father died on his own in an NHS ward as they did not even bother to contact any of the family until it was too late. That's a dignified death under the Liverpool Care Pathway for you except we were never actually told he was on it!
Why didn't I complain? As above firstly I was not the official next of kin, secondly it wouldn't bring him back and thirdly it would be too distressing for other family members.
2) Stop rewarding NHS Trust Chief Executives for presiding over mass deaths.
4) Why do we need as many "suits" as "white coats" particularly when the suits are at best incompetent at worst grossly negligent as exemplified at 2) and 3)?
Len. once again I am shocked by your experience and perception of what the NHS is. I would not dream of doubting your word but there does seem to me that the scenario you portray smacks of a conspiracy theory. Do you really think that staff are complicit to a policy of allowing or even encouraging sick elderly patients to die ? That is right up there with Elvis and The moon landings. I have a more practical scenario in that there are an awful lot of poor quality staff and or staff so ground down by excessive workload that the care they should be providing is not possible. For those that are uncaring and negligent I have nothing but contempt but I suspect it is a mix of both. I work in cancer care which by definition is predominantly an elderly disease. I can assure you that I have never had even the slightest suspicion of what you say and in fact I would go as far as to say that the care offered is nothing short of excellent.
I know what I experienced. See my post above.
You work for the NHS so I would expect you to defend it. That's fair enough.
There is a culture of death and a utilitarian philosophy prevalent in society now.
I'm sure NHS managers would use weaselly words like "rationing to benefit others" to justify their neglect of the elderly and I don't doubt that there are some good people trying genuinely to do a decent job in adverse circumstances.
1 - put a stop to the health tourist sh*t. If, for example, Mrs Patel from India flies in for an operation, make them pay for it upfront - no cash, no op, simple as that. Dont let her have the op, then she goes back to India before the NHS can reclaim the cash. 2 - due to complex procurement agreements, the NHS were paying silly money for essential consumables like toilet rolls. Like £5 a roll for example. 3 - if a Consultant drives his flash Merc into a concrete bollard in the staff car park, dont pay for the damages out of hospital funds when the consultant threatens to walk out and work for another trust if they dont pay for the damage.
1 & 2 was widespread. The NHS were writing off millions per month as more and more ops were done and werent paid for. They've tightened procedures up now but it still happens. 3 just defied belief.
Sorry Len I just can't buy into ward staff not providing satisfactory care under instruction from anyone. If those ward staff are not providing that care then they are acting outside of every protocol and should be found criminally responsible. As I have already said I do not doubt you experiences at all. I can however definitely assure you that there is no death agenda and if and when that occurs through negligence it is because of contemptible staff that have no place anywhere near a hospital.
Sorry Len I just can't buy into ward staff not providing satisfactory care under instruction from anyone. If those ward staff are not providing that care then they are acting outside of every protocol and should be found criminally responsible. As I have already said I do not doubt you experiences at all. I can however definitely assure you that there is no death agenda and if and when that occurs through negligence it is because of contemptible staff that have no place anywhere near a hospital.
I am probably being unreasonable in the standards of care I expect.
At least lying on a floor with a fractured hip one is out of the cold and wet and why should relatives be told anything anyway about the treatment of their loved one? Do old people deserve to be kept hydrated I guess not!
Perhaps the Staff involved didn't realise that the patients would die after all under such conditions.
Bit worrying that they do the job they do if that is the case!
This bloke is sufficiently concerned about the treatment of the elderly to lecture about it though.
SHG What i saw over 13 years with dad and Mum was horrific. It wasnt one place--one ward or one Government.
PFI was brought in the the Tories and welcomed by Labour with open arms, why ? because when it went wrong they all knew they wouldnt be holding the baby. we will as tax payers.
Why not charge people from the EU and outside a higher rate of NI for 2 /3 years and put the money into the NHS. They have never paid into it so why get the full benifit.
I haven't read all this thread so apologies if it has already been pointed out - but
1. NHS Foundation Trusts are accountable to a board of governors elected from various stakeholder groups.
2. The CQC (Care Quality Commission) have a monitoring/enforcement role for all hospitals, care homes etc to ensure nationally defined standards are met.
I'm not an expert in this field but these would offer an alternative route to raise concerns if it is felt that the hospital staff and management are disinterested.
Can't speak for Lewisham or the South London Health Trust hospitals, but when I was in hospital over the summer the vast majority of the nurses were great, but were rushed off their feet. To give a good standard of care requires taking time that they don't necessarily have, particularly if the patient doesn't totally understand what is going on.
some of you may want to take the time in singing this petition to save Lewisham A and E. I know a few of the nurses there and i can honestly say they are truely caring people.
From a friend - Lewisham recently opened a brand new A&E department. In order to save a failing NHS trust (South London NHS Trust) who have not managed their finances and are now facing going into administration they are planning on closing the brand new A&E at Lewisham Hospital who are a brilliant trust, managing their finances and offering a vital service to local residents. It is pure madness to me. I have been a student there for the best part of 3 years and have seen first hand what a busy, essential and well run A&E department this is. So, if you agree, please sign to save this A&E...
some of you may want to take the time in singing this petition to save Lewisham A and E. I know a few of the nurses there and i can honestly say they are truely caring people.
From a friend - Lewisham recently opened a brand new A&E department. In order to save a failing NHS trust (South London NHS Trust) who have not managed their finances and are now facing going into administration they are planning on closing the brand new A&E at Lewisham Hospital who are a brilliant trust, managing their finances and offering a vital service to local residents. It is pure madness to me. I have been a student there for the best part of 3 years and have seen first hand what a busy, essential and well run A&E department this is. So, if you agree, please sign to save this A&E...
Whilst I applaud the idea, sadly when these things become public it is usually because the decision has already been made. We had a consultation paper on the South London NHS Trust a few years ago which presented three options that were "under consideration" for the future of the trust. None of these options included A&E at Queen Mary's remaining open. When the results of the consultation were published it showed that more people voted for "None of the above" than for all of the 3 options combined! The majority of those who responded wrote in the comments that they wanted QM to remain with an A&E. This was totally ignored on the grounds that most of the people saying this were from the Sidcup area. In other words, people who would be most adversely affected by the closure. Rather defeats the object of a consultation if you automatically discard the comments of anyone affected by the proposals!
some of you may want to take the time in singing this petition to save Lewisham A and E. I know a few of the nurses there and i can honestly say they are truely caring people.
From a friend - Lewisham recently opened a brand new A&E department. In order to save a failing NHS trust (South London NHS Trust) who have not managed their finances and are now facing going into administration they are planning on closing the brand new A&E at Lewisham Hospital who are a brilliant trust, managing their finances and offering a vital service to local residents. It is pure madness to me. I have been a student there for the best part of 3 years and have seen first hand what a busy, essential and well run A&E department this is. So, if you agree, please sign to save this A&E...
Whilst I applaud the idea, sadly when these things become public it is usually because the decision has already been made. We had a consultation paper on the South London NHS Trust a few years ago which presented three options that were "under consideration" for the future of the trust. None of these options included A&E at Queen Mary's remaining open. When the results of the consultation were published it showed that more people voted for "None of the above" than for all of the 3 options combined! The majority of those who responded wrote in the comments that they wanted QM to remain with an A&E. This was totally ignored on the grounds that most of the people saying this were from the Sidcup area. In other words, people who would be most adversely affected by the closure. Rather defeats the object of a consultation if you automatically discard the comments of anyone affected by the proposals!
I know what you mean and most of these petitions are ignored. Still worth a go.
So what was the point in asking the people around the area if they are going to ignore them. so someone miles away has a better say on the care of residents in a completely different post code than those living there. Makes no sense. Just doing it so they can say that they have given warning to the public what was likley to happen.
Clare Griffiths @clogsilk In future we'll have a 2 tier service, one for the rich and one for the poor, make no mistake which side Lewisham will fall #SaveLewishamAE
Dawn Foster @DawnHFoster Brilliant speaker from the floor rightly pointing out Labour aren't fighting hard enough for NHS because they started PFI #SaveLewishamAE
Nikki Spencer @NikkiS49 Standing room only at #SaveLewishamAE meeting tonight . And this is the THIRD overspill meeting. pic.twitter.com/HkLsLDKH Retweeted by Clare Griffiths
Clare Griffiths @clogsilk Key in W London has been to get the full involvement of the council. Time for Greenwich and Lewisham to work together. #SaveLewishamAE
Comments
However a few ideas that occur:
1) End the culture of death and euthanasia by stealth as exemplified by the Liverpool Care Pathway.
(Starving and dehydrating people to death in plain English).
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/9635842/Families-left-grieving-and-angry-by-the-Liverpool-Care-Pathway.html
They played a blinder with my father. When I asked why he had no tubes keeping him hydrated I was told that they were probably going to operate shortly. I was mug enough to believe that little gem for the best part of 3 days by which time kidney failure had set in and they were well on their way to achieving their target of bumping him off. No consent from the family, we were just given the we will operate line.
My father died on his own in an NHS ward as they did not even bother to contact any of the family until it was too late. That's a dignified death under the Liverpool Care Pathway for you except we were never actually told he was on it!
Why didn't I complain? As above firstly I was not the official next of kin, secondly it wouldn't bring him back and thirdly it would be too distressing for other family members.
2) Stop rewarding NHS Trust Chief Executives for presiding over mass deaths.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/7851691/Sacrificed-superbug-NHS-chief-Rose-Gibb-wins-190000-damages.html
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/7465901/Hospital-chief-who-stepped-down-after-infection-scandal-claims-payout.html
With reward (generous salary of £150K) a year comes responsibility surely?
Why wasn't it deemed that she breached her contract through gross incompetence, misconduct or whatever other word you want to use?
Could it be that most of the 90 plus dead were old?
3) Stop spending inordinate amounts of money (we are talking billions) on computer systems that don't workand spend it on patient care instead.
http://news.techeye.net/business/mps-demands-end-to-government-it-disasters
4) Why do we need as many "suits" as "white coats" particularly when the suits are at best incompetent at worst grossly negligent as exemplified at 2) and 3)?
You work for the NHS so I would expect you to defend it. That's fair enough.
There is a culture of death and a utilitarian philosophy prevalent in society now.
I'm sure NHS managers would use weaselly words like "rationing to benefit others" to justify their neglect of the elderly and I don't doubt that there are some good people trying genuinely to do a decent job in adverse circumstances.
Where is the accountability though?
1 - put a stop to the health tourist sh*t. If, for example, Mrs Patel from India flies in for an operation, make them pay for it upfront - no cash, no op, simple as that. Dont let her have the op, then she goes back to India before the NHS can reclaim the cash.
2 - due to complex procurement agreements, the NHS were paying silly money for essential consumables like toilet rolls. Like £5 a roll for example.
3 - if a Consultant drives his flash Merc into a concrete bollard in the staff car park, dont pay for the damages out of hospital funds when the consultant threatens to walk out and work for another trust if they dont pay for the damage.
1 & 2 was widespread. The NHS were writing off millions per month as more and more ops were done and werent paid for. They've tightened procedures up now but it still happens.
3 just defied belief.
I am probably being unreasonable in the standards of care I expect.
At least lying on a floor with a fractured hip one is out of the cold and wet and why should relatives be told anything anyway about the treatment of their loved one? Do old people deserve to be kept hydrated I guess not!
Perhaps the Staff involved didn't realise that the patients would die after all under such conditions.
Bit worrying that they do the job they do if that is the case!
This bloke is sufficiently concerned about the treatment of the elderly to lecture about it though.
http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/1204406.htm
As a Christian he is probably not allowed an opinion!
And what about this?
http://protectthepope.com/?p=5879
What i saw over 13 years with dad and Mum was horrific. It wasnt one place--one ward or one Government.
PFI was brought in the the Tories and welcomed by Labour with open arms, why ? because when it went wrong they all knew they wouldnt be holding the baby. we will as tax payers.
Why not charge people from the EU and outside a higher rate of NI for 2 /3 years and put the money into the NHS. They have never paid into it so why get the full benifit.
1. NHS Foundation Trusts are accountable to a board of governors elected from various stakeholder groups.
2. The CQC (Care Quality Commission) have a monitoring/enforcement role for all hospitals, care homes etc to ensure nationally defined standards are met.
I'm not an expert in this field but these would offer an alternative route to raise concerns if it is felt that the hospital staff and management are disinterested.
I know a few of the nurses there and i can honestly say they are truely caring people.
From a friend -
Lewisham recently opened a brand new A&E department. In order to save a failing NHS trust (South London NHS Trust) who have not managed their finances and are now facing going into administration they are planning on closing the brand new A&E at Lewisham Hospital who are a brilliant trust, managing their finances and offering a vital service to local residents. It is pure madness to me. I have been a student there for the best part of 3 years and have seen first hand what a busy, essential and well run A&E department this is. So, if you agree, please sign to save this A&E...
http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/41027
So what was the point in asking the people around the area if they are going to ignore them. so someone miles away has a better say on the care of residents in a completely different post code than those living there. Makes no sense. Just doing it so they can say that they have given warning to the public what was likley to happen.
Both main parties supported and still support PFI. Do not forget this! #SaveLewishamAE
In future we'll have a 2 tier service, one for the rich and one for the poor, make no mistake which side Lewisham will fall #SaveLewishamAE
Brilliant speaker from the floor rightly pointing out Labour aren't fighting hard enough for NHS because they started PFI #SaveLewishamAE
Standing room only at #SaveLewishamAE meeting tonight . And this is the THIRD overspill meeting. pic.twitter.com/HkLsLDKH
Retweeted by Clare Griffiths
Key in W London has been to get the full involvement of the council. Time for Greenwich and Lewisham to work together. #SaveLewishamAE
. @drmarielouise says we can stop this, don't think it's a done deal. #SaveLewishamAE
Detailed rebuttal to the report is planned but we all need to respond individually as well. #SaveLewishamAE