Missed the programme really wanted to watch it as I was in green park on Thursday for the unavailing of the memorial very moving and poignant ceremony.
My uncle was a navigator in Wellingtons during the war. Sadly gone now, but some of his stories were incredible. Asked him once about the negative comments from some quarters and he simply said that at that time they didn't know which way the war was going to turn out. He did say he was glad not be involved in the big raids on German cities though.
I am a nightmare with any Military History programs on TV a bit like a nurse watching casualty but last nights was a triumph, well done ITV, the veterans views and tales alone made this a worthwhile venture.
A hugely controversial aspect of victory in Europe that was handled with respect, dignity and a sensitivity without taking away anything of the significant part those guys paid in shortening the war. The casualty rates of almost 50% (55,000 killed from 112,000 particpants) far out weigh anything in the Great War (mortality rate for a British soldier in 1914/18 was 12.6%) it dwarfs statistical losses on the Somme, Passchendaele or anywhere else.
The magnificent memorial in Green Park (I am taking a Canadian Bomber Command veteran to see it Thursday) is at last a fitting tribute to these guys and their lost comrades.
And remembering my uncle Sergeant Pilot 1375568 Richard Palmer, 115 Squadron, Wellingtons who was lost with his crew over Neder Weert, Holland 16 July 1941
We simply did it bigger and better (if that's the right word) than they did, don't for one moment think that they wouldn't have done it to us on a grand scale had they have had the capability, war is a bloody awful thing, which sadly involves people getting killed. More often than not the side who kills most wins.........and anyway (although this is a somewhat over used comment).......... "they started it".
I spoke to someone recently who served in Bomber Command - as groundcrew in WWII. He joined up with his two best mates who he worked with - he even delayed joining up until the youngest was old enough. All RAF recuits had to go through the same course and at the end they were given a choice - aircrew or groundcrew. He chose terra firma and lived, of his two friends one was shot down over Berlin and is buried at Charlottenburg and the other has no known grave, his plane was shot down in North Africa.
We can debate whether the raids were morally/ethically right and whether they worked or not until the cows come home, but one thing should never be in doubt is the bravery of those that flew and did so in the knowledge that at breakfast the next morning there would always be a few empty spaces. My acquaintance said that the hardest thing was to work on a plane, get to know the aircrew, send it off and then never see it or the crew again, and then to have that happen again and again and again. In his case he went to Berlin to find his mate's grave and visited a memorial in North Africa to those who had no known grave. RIP and the memorial is long overdue.
We simply did it bigger and bettter than they did, don't for one moment think that they would have done it to us on a grand scale had they have had the capability, war is a bloody awful thing, which sadly involves people getting killed. More often than not the side who kills most wins.........and anyway (although this is a somewhat over used comment).......... "they started it".
Don't really see the war in terms of "us" and "them", but I fully Respect the sacrifice those on the allied side made.
Just remember Guernica and Coventry as well as London, Hull and Plymouth .. as Harris said of the Luftwaffe and Goering: 'They sowed a wind and will reap a whirlwind'. The 1,000 bomber raids were a disaster for German civilians but I imagine the same civilians rejoiced at the news of the Reichs' victories over the Undermenschen in the rest of Europe. For graphic, albeit fictional, accounts of what it was probably like to be under an RAF bomber raid, read Len Deighton's 'Bomber' or Vonnegut's 'SlaughterHouse 5'
Brave, brave men, we all talk about the death toll in WW1, however the chances of dying in the bomber crew was greater than an officer dying in the trenches in WW1. BTW it really P!sses me off when people say that Harris was a murderer because of bomber commands actions. It was war, it was 70 years ago! He did what he had to do, incidentally sanctioned by Churchill and the War cabinet, who to a man, distanced themselves from the bombing campaign after the war. Also they deserve a campaign medal, none were giving to the crews, which, given the dangers, is absolutely unforgivable. For those going to the War and Peace show this year, there will be the front end of a Lancaster to get in and experience how cramped it is/was in the bomb aimers, pilots and navigators chairs. It must have been terrifying.
Lincs your right in among the airfields up there arent you, we have just bought an investment property to be used as a bit of a family retreat in an old coaching inn in Folkingham, do you know the area, I intend spending some weekends exploring a few airfields over the summmer, its not far from Stamford apparently, any suggestions?
When you see some of the utter crap ITV pump out, it's gems like this that redeem them.
Looking at those "old boys" last night, I will admit I had a tear in my eye when they spoke about losing their friends. I also chuckled when they spoke about York girls being willing amateurs.
Without doubt Bomber Command shortened the war, as they said their attacks on Peenemunde prevented Hitler from launching the Vengeance weapons much earlier than they did. They rightly said that London would have been obliterated if they hadn't acted so swiftly.
Bomber Command did what it had to do, maybe in hindsight they shouldn't have attacked Dresden so heavily, but it was war and if we didn't do it to them, they would have certainly done it to us had they had the capability.
Missed the programme really wanted to watch it as I was in green park on Thursday for the unavailing of the memorial very moving and poignant ceremony.
I believe it's being repeated on Thursday at 10.35 on ITV.
We simply did it bigger and bettter than they did, don't for one moment think that they would have done it to us on a grand scale had they have had the capability, war is a bloody awful thing, which sadly involves people getting killed. More often than not the side who kills most wins.........and anyway (although this is a somewhat over used comment).......... "they started it".
Don't really see the war in terms of "us" and "them", but I fully Respect the sacrifice those on the allied side made.
well it was a war ..kill or be killed ,we owe our freedom to people like those guys ,i for one will never forget it
Thanks BDL, will certainly do, I am up there the week after next and last nights program fired me up, I have a friend Martin Middlebrooke who though a Great War man like me is from Lincolnshire originally and he wrote a couple of Bomber Command books I think, I have them somewhere.. Thanks again for the tip
Thanks BDL, will certainly do, I am up there the week after next and last nights program fired me up, I have a friend Martin Middlebrooke who though a Great War man like me is from Lincolnshire originally and he wrote a couple of Bomber Command books I think, I have them somewhere.. Thanks again for the tip
If it's the same bloke - I think he wrote several on the bomber raids over Germany - looking at the raids on Berlin, Hamburg etc, and I think he wrote a book on the Falklands.
Yep thats Martin, he is best known in my world for "The First Day of the Somme" and "The Kaisers Battle" he is in his mid 70's now and has retired to Cheltenham but I still speak to him a couple of times a year
A German pilot wilfully flew low and shot at my mother, aunt and uncle, all of whom were obviously children, in Red Lion Lane when they were walking with my grandfather who was home on leave in naval uniform.
He missed fortunately otherwise I wouldn't be here but for me that illustrates that at the time there was a stark choice of "us" or "them" and moral judgements made with the benefit of hindsight should bear that in mind.
Missed the programme really wanted to watch it as I was in green park on Thursday for the unavailing of the memorial very moving and poignant ceremony.
I believe it's being repeated on Thursday at 10.35 on ITV.
A German pilot wilfully flew low and shot at my mother, aunt and uncle, all of whom were obviously children, in Red Lion Lane when they were walking with my grandfather who was home on leave in naval uniform.
He missed fortunately otherwise I wouldn't be here but for me that illustrates that at the time there was a stark choice of "us" or "them" and moral judgements made with the benefit of hindsight should bear that in mind.
My Grandad flew in the Lancs - got downed twice over France and got back both times.
I thought that if a plane was shot down over German occupied Europe the aircrew were exempted from flying on missions again lest they get captured and surrender information about the resistance and the people who helped them.
Thanks BDL, will certainly do, I am up there the week after next and last nights program fired me up, I have a friend Martin Middlebrooke who though a Great War man like me is from Lincolnshire originally and he wrote a couple of Bomber Command books I think, I have them somewhere.. Thanks again for the tip
If it's the same bloke - I think he wrote several on the bomber raids over Germany - looking at the raids on Berlin, Hamburg etc, and I think he wrote a book on the Falklands.
He also wrote a superb account about Arnhem - 'Arnhem 1944'
The problem is of course, it isn't something you are necessary proud of, even though it can easily be argued that the net result was a saving of lives due to the outcome of the war. Bombing bases is one thing but women and Children another- but we should never forget who started it and the bravery of the airmen involved.
There are lots of good books on Bomber command which give balanced views of the rights and wrongs. The best i have read is Bomber boys by Patrick Bishop, It manages to combine individual accounts with military facts. My Grandad managed to complete 50 missions as a Flight engineer in a Lancaster but never talked about it after the War. I wish i had been able to ask him more about it before he died.
Its really good that they finally have the recognition they deserved as they played a key role in shortening the War and keeping morale of the nation up between Dunkirk and D Day.
Len that sounds like it could have been the SE London Focke Wolf raid in 1943, they flew in low and aimed at civilians schools and caught the civil defences napping, each aircraft carried a single 1000kg bomb, one landed on the parade square of the Naval College, I wrote about it in "A Wander Through Wartime London" a couple of years ago, there was an eye witness report of seeing the pilot laughing as he shot up pedestrians flying at roof height up the Trafalgar Road, Steve Hunnisett who sometimes posts on here is the local Blitz guru for the area so should know a little more
Comments
Was very good, damning of Churchill who ordered blanket bombing of German cities then denied it was happening in the Commons.
A hugely controversial aspect of victory in Europe that was handled with respect, dignity and a sensitivity without taking away anything of the significant part those guys paid in shortening the war. The casualty rates of almost 50% (55,000 killed from 112,000 particpants) far out weigh anything in the Great War (mortality rate for a British soldier in 1914/18 was 12.6%) it dwarfs statistical losses on the Somme, Passchendaele or anywhere else.
The magnificent memorial in Green Park (I am taking a Canadian Bomber Command veteran to see it Thursday) is at last a fitting tribute to these guys and their lost comrades.
And remembering my uncle Sergeant Pilot 1375568 Richard Palmer, 115 Squadron, Wellingtons who was lost with his crew over Neder Weert, Holland 16 July 1941
More often than not the side who kills most wins.........and anyway (although this is a somewhat over used comment).......... "they started it".
We can debate whether the raids were morally/ethically right and whether they worked or not until the cows come home, but one thing should never be in doubt is the bravery of those that flew and did so in the knowledge that at breakfast the next morning there would always be a few empty spaces. My acquaintance said that the hardest thing was to work on a plane, get to know the aircrew, send it off and then never see it or the crew again, and then to have that happen again and again and again. In his case he went to Berlin to find his mate's grave and visited a memorial in North Africa to those who had no known grave. RIP and the memorial is long overdue.
BTW it really P!sses me off when people say that Harris was a murderer because of bomber commands actions. It was war, it was 70 years ago! He did what he had to do, incidentally sanctioned by Churchill and the War cabinet, who to a man, distanced themselves from the bombing campaign after the war.
Also they deserve a campaign medal, none were giving to the crews, which, given the dangers, is absolutely unforgivable.
For those going to the War and Peace show this year, there will be the front end of a Lancaster to get in and experience how cramped it is/was in the bomb aimers, pilots and navigators chairs. It must have been terrifying.
Looking at those "old boys" last night, I will admit I had a tear in my eye when they spoke about losing their friends. I also chuckled when they spoke about York girls being willing amateurs.
Without doubt Bomber Command shortened the war, as they said their attacks on Peenemunde prevented Hitler from launching the Vengeance weapons much earlier than they did. They rightly said that London would have been obliterated if they hadn't acted so swiftly.
Bomber Command did what it had to do, maybe in hindsight they shouldn't have attacked Dresden so heavily, but it was war and if we didn't do it to them, they would have certainly done it to us had they had the capability.
@SE7toSG3 - Try this - http://www.lincsaviation.co.uk/ this http://www.newarkairmuseum.org/ and this http://www.yorkshireairmuseum.org/ (although a bit further afield).
He missed fortunately otherwise I wouldn't be here but for me that illustrates that at the time there was a stark choice of "us" or "them" and moral judgements made with the benefit of hindsight should bear that in mind.
How ironic that my Brother now lives in Dresden.
Or is that an urban myth?
He may have fabricated the tales, but I doubt it.
Its really good that they finally have the recognition they deserved as they played a key role in shortening the War and keeping morale of the nation up between Dunkirk and D Day.